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dreamer1926
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:57 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:43 am

reasonable wrote:
DL definitely wants to limit competition in DTW from international airlines, but they're probably aware that some competition is necessary to help grow the overall market. Service begets service in part because airline service is a sort of infrastructure supporting new reasons to travel—like streamlining business.

Related to markets like SEA, the main factor here is that SEA is a super sophisticated market. The region has multiple business communities and anchor industries with global scope, lots of wealth, and a sophisticated traveler base. I've spoken about this in this forum before: Detroit's CSA is over 5 million which is definitely significant, but it's a low-sophistication 5 million—more conservative, less educated, etc.—which absolutely translates into travel behaviors. This is really just my characterization as a native, but I'd be curious to see data that shed like on this (like wealth, top air service routes for leisure, preference for travel mode, top vacation destinations from the region, etc.)


That makes sense. I had neglected to mention business travel in what I posted but that's a big game changer for sure. This makes me think, was Virgin Atlantic's LHR-DTW route based on business travel? I remember reading an article last summer from 2015 saying VS launched a DTW-LHR route, yet now the route doesn't exist and there is no news article anywhere saying that they stopped or if so, why they did.
 
timf
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:13 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
DL definitely wants to limit competition in DTW from international airlines, but they're probably aware that some competition is necessary to help grow the overall market. Service begets service in part because airline service is a sort of infrastructure supporting new reasons to travel—like streamlining business.

Related to markets like SEA, the main factor here is that SEA is a super sophisticated market. The region has multiple business communities and anchor industries with global scope, lots of wealth, and a sophisticated traveler base. I've spoken about this in this forum before: Detroit's CSA is over 5 million which is definitely significant, but it's a low-sophistication 5 million—more conservative, less educated, etc.—which absolutely translates into travel behaviors. This is really just my characterization as a native, but I'd be curious to see data that shed like on this (like wealth, top air service routes for leisure, preference for travel mode, top vacation destinations from the region, etc.)


That makes sense. I had neglected to mention business travel in what I posted but that's a big game changer for sure. This makes me think, was Virgin Atlantic's LHR-DTW route based on business travel? I remember reading an article last summer from 2015 saying VS launched a DTW-LHR route, yet now the route doesn't exist and there is no news article anywhere saying that they stopped or if so, why they did.

The VS DTW-LHR route was purely a product of the DL/VS joint venture. After a couple years they decided it was better to have twice-daily DL service rather than splitting it between DL and VS, so it quietly went away.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:13 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MXP operated one summer 2000 by NW DC-10-30
MAD was announced by NW for Summer 2003 DC-10-30 but was cut before it started
BRU operated 1 summer, 2007 part of the NW 75A “experiment”
DUS operated 2 years 2007-2008 part of the NW 75A experiment
NW announced intent to service Baghdad via AMS obviously that never happened

BCN no
STR no, other than the DCX shuttle PTK-STR that operated with a VIP configured A319 3x weekly during the Daimler-Chrysler era


In 1990, Iraqi Airways announced DTW-JFK-Baghdad would begin in the spring of 1991, but the 1990-1991 Gulf War intervened.

SN flew DTW-BRU for several years in the 1980s, usually via YMX.
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:57 am

Random late night thought I had... does anyone think LH will ever bring the 747-400/8i or a340-600 back to DTW? It looks unlikely this year, since flight connections listed that it would be an a333 mostly until next month when it would switch to an a343 for the summer. I keep watching old plane spotting videos at DTW anytime from 2014-2019 and all of the LH jets at DTW shown in the videos are either a 747 or a346. I would love to see the a346 and I know it has a limited time left in lufti's fleet, but could we see a 747 possibly in the summer of 2023/24 once travel comes back 100%? Also does anyone use a website/app better than flight connections for schedules/aircraft used because I hear route announcements and when I check on the website it will say there is no route, yet other ones will say "starts in may" which leads me to think there are some routes that it's not showing... or is this the best website to use.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 188
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:14 pm

There must be a reason that LH has a Senator Club at DTW,which in checking is listed as temporarily closed.
That makes sense given they're not flying the first class equipped aircraft into DTW right now.
When the VIPs return to flying, I would expect the Senator Club to reopen and the 747-8I/A340-600 to return.
 
drdisque
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:22 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
Random late night thought I had... does anyone think LH will ever bring the 747-400/8i or a340-600 back to DTW? It looks unlikely this year, since flight connections listed that it would be an a333 mostly until next month when it would switch to an a343 for the summer. I keep watching old plane spotting videos at DTW anytime from 2014-2019 and all of the LH jets at DTW shown in the videos are either a 747 or a346. I would love to see the a346 and I know it has a limited time left in lufti's fleet, but could we see a 747 possibly in the summer of 2023/24 once travel comes back 100%? Also does anyone use a website/app better than flight connections for schedules/aircraft used because I hear route announcements and when I check on the website it will say there is no route, yet other ones will say "starts in may" which leads me to think there are some routes that it's not showing... or is this the best website to use.


LH has kept the 748 focused on "mega" cities in the US and/or Star hubs. DTW is neither. The upgauge path for DTW is probably the A350-900 or the 787-9 which is on order.
 
hjulicher
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:56 am

The A346 was the middle sized jet in the LH long haul fleet when we were operating the B744 B748 and A380. Now that the A380s are gone and the B744 retirements accelerated along with the A346 (for the most part except for the Munich fleet in order to offer first class), the remaining aircraft types are Limited. With many A33X moving to 4Y and new aircraft deliveries delayed, there is an issue with the fleet.

With the majority of A350 flying based in MUC, there isn’t the right aircraft portfolio at the FRA hub. So too few A340/A330 family aircraft to fly the non-hub routes. Once the B789 starts delivery this should improve. DTW is a logical destination for the B789.

The lounge no longer differentiates between Senator and Business. It was remodeled just as the pandemic started in March of 2020. During the remodel, it became just a Lufthansa lounge, but do not read anything into this, it was merely done to offer customers two types of zones. One food & beverage area, and the other for work/relaxation. DTW is indeed unique in having a corporate branded lounge for a one flight station. Hopefully the Munich flight will be added soon again should business travel rebound.

Regarding TK, I have heard that they intend to start DTW in July with B789 service. I believe initially it will be used for p-freighter service only. Let’s see what materializes.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:45 am

Sometimes a quick search isn't good enough. Didn't know the lounge was now just a business lounge.
Wonder if it was related to becoming part of Priority Pass?
Back when I visited years ago, to say it was lightly used in the morning is an understatement.
I understand the closer to Lufthansa's flight time, the busier it got.
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:36 am

hjulicher wrote:
The A346 was the middle sized jet in the LH long haul fleet when we were operating the B744 B748 and A380. Now that the A380s are gone and the B744 retirements accelerated along with the A346 (for the most part except for the Munich fleet in order to offer first class), the remaining aircraft types are Limited. With many A33X moving to 4Y and new aircraft deliveries delayed, there is an issue with the fleet.

With the majority of A350 flying based in MUC, there isn’t the right aircraft portfolio at the FRA hub. So too few A340/A330 family aircraft to fly the non-hub routes. Once the B789 starts delivery this should improve. DTW is a logical destination for the B789.

The lounge no longer differentiates between Senator and Business. It was remodeled just as the pandemic started in March of 2020. During the remodel, it became just a Lufthansa lounge, but do not read anything into this, it was merely done to offer customers two types of zones. One food & beverage area, and the other for work/relaxation. DTW is indeed unique in having a corporate branded lounge for a one flight station. Hopefully the Munich flight will be added soon again should business travel rebound.

Regarding TK, I have heard that they intend to start DTW in July with B789 service. I believe initially it will be used for p-freighter service only. Let’s see what materializes.


Lol I don't know if I read this in an above reply, or if I read in the comments of an article, but I remember reading once before that TK was in talks of doing cargo flights in the middle of the night to DTW.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:30 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
Sometimes a quick search isn't good enough. Didn't know the lounge was now just a business lounge.
Wonder if it was related to becoming part of Priority Pass?
Back when I visited years ago, to say it was lightly used in the morning is an understatement.
I understand the closer to Lufthansa's flight time, the busier it got.


With a surge in third-party clubs being built to compete for branding as Priority Pass, Chase, Capital One, etc., It was inevitable a third-party would open up a club at North Terminal. LH, which has long sold day passes, probably realized this and caved in.

Probably won’t be long before Midfield gets a third-party lounge.
 
aeropix
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Goodbye North Terminal, gone but not forgotten

Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:02 am

Following a long tradition of Politicians worldwide slapping their names on airports and their terminals, DTW North Terminal has been renamed Warren Cleavage Evans Terminal, or just Evans terminal for short. When my dad picked me up at the North Terminal on March 20th, all was well, then when he dropped me off on the 22nd we got the shock of the name change. They're even scrubbing all the helpful "N" markings off of the roadways and replacing it with a confusing "E" (E for what most people would ask -- Extravagant, Extraneous, Extraordinarily stupid?).

If anybody is in town on April 4th (today! as I write this) There will be a dedication ceremony at 2pm - see link below.

Anyway enough of my rant. Please politicians stop the madness, give us back "National Airport" "Intercontinental Airport" and good old North Terminal, and stop messing with stuff that's not broken.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 82JBes8faC
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:40 am

I think a rule should be that government bodies can't name any facility for someone until 5 years after their death.
Gives time for the skeletons if any, to appear.

In case you didn't notice it, the new Administration Building attached to the North Terminal was named for Michael Berry.
Guess he rated since his namesake International Terminal was demolished.
LC Smith and JM Davey apparently don't rate as I found nothing to replace their namesake demolished terminals.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:42 pm

Yeah that’s gonna stay North Terminal for me
 
CALMSP
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:48 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
hjulicher wrote:
The A346 was the middle sized jet in the LH long haul fleet when we were operating the B744 B748 and A380. Now that the A380s are gone and the B744 retirements accelerated along with the A346 (for the most part except for the Munich fleet in order to offer first class), the remaining aircraft types are Limited. With many A33X moving to 4Y and new aircraft deliveries delayed, there is an issue with the fleet.

With the majority of A350 flying based in MUC, there isn’t the right aircraft portfolio at the FRA hub. So too few A340/A330 family aircraft to fly the non-hub routes. Once the B789 starts delivery this should improve. DTW is a logical destination for the B789.

The lounge no longer differentiates between Senator and Business. It was remodeled just as the pandemic started in March of 2020. During the remodel, it became just a Lufthansa lounge, but do not read anything into this, it was merely done to offer customers two types of zones. One food & beverage area, and the other for work/relaxation. DTW is indeed unique in having a corporate branded lounge for a one flight station. Hopefully the Munich flight will be added soon again should business travel rebound.

Regarding TK, I have heard that they intend to start DTW in July with B789 service. I believe initially it will be used for p-freighter service only. Let’s see what materializes.


Lol I don't know if I read this in an above reply, or if I read in the comments of an article, but I remember reading once before that TK was in talks of doing cargo flights in the middle of the night to DTW.


TK is coming to DTW this summer, but planned as a pax op
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:58 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
I think a rule should be that government bodies can't name any facility for someone until 5 years after their death.
Gives time for the skeletons if any, to appear.

In case you didn't notice it, the new Administration Building attached to the North Terminal was named for Michael Berry.
Guess he rated since his namesake International Terminal was demolished.
LC Smith and JM Davey apparently don't rate as I found nothing to replace their namesake demolished terminals.


In fairness, WCAA spent nearly 15 years trying to find a corporate sponsor for the North Terminal before relenting and naming it after a politician, conforming with national tradition. At least the politicians' names are downplayed... I'd rather not near "ladies and gentleman, our arrival gate today will be D42 at the Better Made Potatoes Chips Terminal" or "...our arrival gate this evening will be D42 at the Built Ford Tough Terminal." Thankfully, politicians have short lives in our memories... see Las Vegas, which dumped Senator McCarran for Senator Reid. And it could be worse - maybe one day IAH's international terminal will be know as Ted Cruz International Terminal, with special service to CUN.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:00 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I think a rule should be that government bodies can't name any facility for someone until 5 years after their death.
Gives time for the skeletons if any, to appear.

In case you didn't notice it, the new Administration Building attached to the North Terminal was named for Michael Berry.
Guess he rated since his namesake International Terminal was demolished.
LC Smith and JM Davey apparently don't rate as I found nothing to replace their namesake demolished terminals.


In fairness, WCAA spent nearly 15 years trying to find a corporate sponsor for the North Terminal before relenting and naming it after a politician, conforming with national tradition. At least the politicians' names are downplayed... I'd rather not near "ladies and gentleman, our arrival gate today will be D42 at the Better Made Potatoes Chips Terminal" or "...our arrival gate this evening will be D42 at the Built Ford Tough Terminal." Thankfully, politicians have short lives in our memories... see Las Vegas, which dumped Senator McCarran for Senator Reid. And it could be worse - maybe one day IAH's international terminal will be know as Ted Cruz International Terminal, with special service to CUN.


Who wouldn't wanna arrive at Taco Bell Terminal?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:18 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I think a rule should be that government bodies can't name any facility for someone until 5 years after their death.
Gives time for the skeletons if any, to appear.

In case you didn't notice it, the new Administration Building attached to the North Terminal was named for Michael Berry.
Guess he rated since his namesake International Terminal was demolished.
LC Smith and JM Davey apparently don't rate as I found nothing to replace their namesake demolished terminals.


In fairness, WCAA spent nearly 15 years trying to find a corporate sponsor for the North Terminal before relenting and naming it after a politician, conforming with national tradition. At least the politicians' names are downplayed... I'd rather not near "ladies and gentleman, our arrival gate today will be D42 at the Better Made Potatoes Chips Terminal" or "...our arrival gate this evening will be D42 at the Built Ford Tough Terminal." Thankfully, politicians have short lives in our memories... see Las Vegas, which dumped Senator McCarran for Senator Reid. And it could be worse - maybe one day IAH's international terminal will be know as Ted Cruz International Terminal, with special service to CUN.


I like your Ted Cruz idea...

La Guardia was a national figure. Evans is some xth-rate County Executive. North Terminal worked fine as a name for 15 years. No reason to change it.
 
umichman
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:24 pm

Naming airport after Dirty Harry "It worked didn't it?" Reid was most hilarious move ever!
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:58 am

CALMSP wrote:
dreamer1926 wrote:
hjulicher wrote:
The A346 was the middle sized jet in the LH long haul fleet when we were operating the B744 B748 and A380. Now that the A380s are gone and the B744 retirements accelerated along with the A346 (for the most part except for the Munich fleet in order to offer first class), the remaining aircraft types are Limited. With many A33X moving to 4Y and new aircraft deliveries delayed, there is an issue with the fleet.

With the majority of A350 flying based in MUC, there isn’t the right aircraft portfolio at the FRA hub. So too few A340/A330 family aircraft to fly the non-hub routes. Once the B789 starts delivery this should improve. DTW is a logical destination for the B789.

The lounge no longer differentiates between Senator and Business. It was remodeled just as the pandemic started in March of 2020. During the remodel, it became just a Lufthansa lounge, but do not read anything into this, it was merely done to offer customers two types of zones. One food & beverage area, and the other for work/relaxation. DTW is indeed unique in having a corporate branded lounge for a one flight station. Hopefully the Munich flight will be added soon again should business travel rebound.

Regarding TK, I have heard that they intend to start DTW in July with B789 service. I believe initially it will be used for p-freighter service only. Let’s see what materializes.


Lol I don't know if I read this in an above reply, or if I read in the comments of an article, but I remember reading once before that TK was in talks of doing cargo flights in the middle of the night to DTW.


TK is coming to DTW this summer, but planned as a pax op


Pax op as in passenger service? Or something else, my bad.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:34 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
dreamer1926 wrote:

Lol I don't know if I read this in an above reply, or if I read in the comments of an article, but I remember reading once before that TK was in talks of doing cargo flights in the middle of the night to DTW.


TK is coming to DTW this summer, but planned as a pax op


Pax op as in passenger service? Or something else, my bad.

Pax Op = Passenger Operations, so yeah passenger service is what he means.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6915
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:29 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I think a rule should be that government bodies can't name any facility for someone until 5 years after their death.
Gives time for the skeletons if any, to appear.

In case you didn't notice it, the new Administration Building attached to the North Terminal was named for Michael Berry.
Guess he rated since his namesake International Terminal was demolished.
LC Smith and JM Davey apparently don't rate as I found nothing to replace their namesake demolished terminals.


In fairness, WCAA spent nearly 15 years trying to find a corporate sponsor for the North Terminal before relenting and naming it after a politician, conforming with national tradition. At least the politicians' names are downplayed... I'd rather not near "ladies and gentleman, our arrival gate today will be D42 at the Better Made Potatoes Chips Terminal" or "...our arrival gate this evening will be D42 at the Built Ford Tough Terminal." Thankfully, politicians have short lives in our memories... see Las Vegas, which dumped Senator McCarran for Senator Reid. And it could be worse - maybe one day IAH's international terminal will be know as Ted Cruz International Terminal, with special service to CUN.


While I get the IAH/Ted Cruz one is a joke, it would never happen. The city of Houston is very blue and Ted Cruz, despite being from here, is wildly unpopular in the city of Houston. Naturally the suburbs are a different story.
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:43 am

CALMSP wrote:
TK is coming to DTW this summer, but planned as a pax op


You this with confidence, but no information. How do you know that TK has planned a start date this summer?
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:09 pm

Building off the discussion about AA’s bus service from PHL-ACY/ABE, and United already offering similar bus service in other hubs, what is the likelihood Delta would ever consider something similar from DTW? To clarify, I am implying something Delta branded, and not just more Michigan Flier service. And if hypothetically it did happen, is there even a good place along the McNamara terminal to essentially have bus gates?

In talking with frequent flyers from the Lansing area, the three biggest reasons they don’t consider using the Michigan Flier are:
1) Misconnection “insurance”, as in Delta moving you to a later flight if the bus is late to DTW, or getting a later bus if the flight into DTW is late. Hence the value of having Delta branded service.
2) Many of the LAN frequent flyers like the Delta MQMs they get for flying LAN-DTW. If MQMs towards medallion status were offered for taking the bus, it’d be much more enticing.
3) The last Michigan Flier bus of the night from DTW-LAN leaves too early, which doesn’t work if the inbound flight arrives at DTW on or after 7:45/8pm.

It’s a lot cheaper and easier to find bus drivers and a bus these days than a 50-seat RJ. I know bus service is sort of taboo to suggest on an airline forum, but I can’t disagree with the business case for it.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:26 pm

Bus service would be a good way for DL to re-enter FNT and TOL.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:28 pm

Bus service would need to give Delta a competitive advantage.
I doubt you will get the low fare chasers onboard.
For the rest, I think most are going to Delta without the need for a bus.
Mass transit of any type in Michigan is something many will not give any consideration too.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:36 pm

Yeah I don't think bus service would be very enticing in Michigan...
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:57 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Bus service would need to give Delta a competitive advantage.
I doubt you will get the low fare chasers onboard.
For the rest, I think most are going to Delta without the need for a bus.
Mass transit of any type in Michigan is something many will not give any consideration too.


I tend to agree. The VFR and bargain chasers will (in general) just make the drive to DTW. But then again, those folks are already doing that while other people are still flying LAN-DTW, AZO-DTW, etc.

My argument is more that if someone is willing to pay the premium to fly LAN/AZO/etc.-DTW, then they might not be opposed to considering a bus route from DTW instead. Especially if it is marketed as a DL “flight”. For those currently flying those short DTW-AZO/LAN/etc. routes:
1- Arguably a bus is somewhat more comfortable than the CR2s flying today, granted it might be a 90min ride vs 60min gate to gate.
2- Arguably a bus is more reliable. Yes a crash on the freeway or ice storm will impact the bus occasionally, but over the course of a year, I would argue a bus would have a higher on-time rate than the CRJs do today.
3- The bus ride provides more productive time than flying does (or than obviously driving yourself), and you don’t have the inflight internet issues that occur on the CRJs.
4- The bus is cheap enough that it could run more frequently. If at some point DL has to drop their 3x/4x daily DTW-AZO/LAN flights to 2x daily on a CR9, then I think the lack of frequency pushes more people who would have flown between DTW-AZO/LAN to driving. Having 5x or more daily bus service re-attracts those pax who would prefer not to drive, for one reason or another.

Honestly I think the AZO & LAN (and possibly elsewhere) pax bases would be better served by a DL branded bus “flight” that could run at least 5x daily to DTW, compared to the current setup they have. Give those pax MQMs, checked through baggage, and all the other perks they get flying a DL CR2, and I don’t think there’d be much objection. The people most upset would probably be the staff at the LAN & AZO airport themselves.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:17 pm

kavok wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Bus service would need to give Delta a competitive advantage.
I doubt you will get the low fare chasers onboard.
For the rest, I think most are going to Delta without the need for a bus.
Mass transit of any type in Michigan is something many will not give any consideration too.


I tend to agree. The VFR and bargain chasers will (in general) just make the drive to DTW. But then again, those folks are already doing that while other people are still flying LAN-DTW, AZO-DTW, etc.

My argument is more that if someone is willing to pay the premium to fly LAN/AZO/etc.-DTW, then they might not be opposed to considering a bus route from DTW instead. Especially if it is marketed as a DL “flight”. For those currently flying those short DTW-AZO/LAN/etc. routes:
1- Arguably a bus is somewhat more comfortable than the CR2s flying today, granted it might be a 90min ride vs 60min gate to gate.
2- Arguably a bus is more reliable. Yes a crash on the freeway or ice storm will impact the bus occasionally, but over the course of a year, I would argue a bus would have a higher on-time rate than the CRJs do today.
3- The bus ride provides more productive time than flying does (or than obviously driving yourself), and you don’t have the inflight internet issues that occur on the CRJs.
4- The bus is cheap enough that it could run more frequently. If at some point DL has to drop their 3x/4x daily DTW-AZO/LAN flights to 2x daily on a CR9, then I think the lack of frequency pushes more people who would have flown between DTW-AZO/LAN to driving. Having 5x or more daily bus service re-attracts those pax who would prefer not to drive, for one reason or another.

Honestly I think the AZO & LAN (and possibly elsewhere) pax bases would be better served by a DL branded bus “flight” that could run at least 5x daily to DTW, compared to the current setup they have. Give those pax MQMs, checked through baggage, and all the other perks they get flying a DL CR2, and I don’t think there’d be much objection. The people most upset would probably be the staff at the LAN & AZO airport themselves.


The Michigan Flyer travels several times a day from Lansing to DTW. Prior to COVID, it was fast, frequent & inexpensive (and offered parking for like $2/day in East Lansing). Its pickup location is probably more convenient for the Lansing proper... than LAN itself. In the long run, bus service never lasts. Even UA gave up the long-running ABE-EWR connection to the private market. And many years before, tried an extensive connection at ORD (I think Greyhound provided the ground service)...

And DL isn't returning to FNT anytime soon - and I've maintained since well before COVID why it was likely DL would one day end service. People who want to fly DL... will make the drive to DTW and pay more for their fare.
,
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:14 pm

reasonable wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
TK is coming to DTW this summer, but planned as a pax op


You this with confidence, but no information. How do you know that TK has planned a start date this summer?


I wonder too, although it seems likely since this route will be very lucrative so one would think they'd want to start asap. Lets hope we hear some news soon about it.
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:35 am

Does anyone think that LH will ever start their MUC service to DTW? was looking at an old article from August 2019 about LH starting MUC-DTW on May 4th 2020, which didn't commence for obvious reasons. I know DL is starting their MUC service next month, as well as their FRA service which actually starts today lol; but if the demand gets high enough could we see a Lufti Munich flight alongside Delta like DTW-CDG with DL/AF?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:18 pm

The short answer is yes/maybe; when demand recovers to the point it makes sense for LH to add a second flight to DTW. They were interested before, and its their next natural add at DTW. Also a function of their broader network plans including aircraft availability, and how other global markets recover or lack there of.

The absolute realistic earliest it could be started would be Summer 2023.
 
Prost
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:56 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
Been thinking about this a lot lately... does anyone else wonder why DTW has so few international airlines? I'm aware we're a Delta hub, but mainly right now for European destinations such as CDG, AMS, LHR, and soon-to-be FRA with DL, and then we have ICN and NRT. Yet I feel like southeast Michigan's population as well as diversity don't reflect with what DTW offers. Besides NK and F9s leisure Cancun flights, and Air Canada's YYZ and soon-to-be YUL flights, we are really only left with LH, RJ, AF, and AM. Last year when I visited SEA, I remember seeing many international airlines there, and after looking it up online they have quite the list. Besides the shared airlines, they also have Aer Lingus, ANA, Asiana, British, Cathay, Emirates, Eva, Hainan, Hawaiian, Iceland, Japan, Korean, Qatar, Singapore, and Virgin Atlantic to name a few. Any reason why their network is much more extensive than ours? I'm aware as a west coast city they have greater connections to east Asia, yet with southeast Michigan having one of the largest middle-eastern populations in the US, I feel like it would make sense for us to have possibly Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar, Turkish, Indian, etc. I figured this might have something to do with population, as Seattle's population is around 724,000 as of 2019 and Detroit's is about 50,000 under at around 674,000 as of 2019 as well. Yet as we know Detroit has suffered a lot in the past few decades which led people to move further north and west into other neighborhoods, which led me to check Michigan's population count and finding it to be around 9.9 million as of 2019, which surprised me since I found out Washington State's population as of 2019 was only 7.9 million, around 2 million fewer people. My guess is that since DTW is one of Delta's largest hubs, Delta is hindering any expansion of any other airline to DTW, yet, where do most passengers from the middle east and west Asia connect to on Delta? I know many people from Albania and India connect through LH to DTW, which, correct me if I'm wrong, will possibly happen when Delta starts FRA-DTW next month. Yet I still feel like the only real gateway to the middle east if RJ, which I found out really isn't that big of an airline. I just hope that sometime in the future, hopefully the near future, we may see more of a variety here at DTW. I especially have high hopes for Turkish starting service here, as rumored it would begin coming to DTW and SEA, hopefully sometime this year. So yeah does anybody have any thoughts or knowledge to bring about with this topic?


I pulled out some statistics comparing the DTW and SEA markets:

DTW MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) population: 4,392,041
SEA MSA Population: 4,018,598 (closer in size than I expected)

Per capita income DTW MSA $58,356
Per capita income SEA MSA $80,420

There is just a lot more wealth in Seattle than the DTW MSA, of course the housing costs in SEA are obscene compared to DTW.
 
BowlingShoeDC9
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:39 pm

Prost wrote:
dreamer1926 wrote:
Been thinking about this a lot lately... does anyone else wonder why DTW has so few international airlines? I'm aware we're a Delta hub, but mainly right now for European destinations such as CDG, AMS, LHR, and soon-to-be FRA with DL, and then we have ICN and NRT. Yet I feel like southeast Michigan's population as well as diversity don't reflect with what DTW offers. Besides NK and F9s leisure Cancun flights, and Air Canada's YYZ and soon-to-be YUL flights, we are really only left with LH, RJ, AF, and AM. Last year when I visited SEA, I remember seeing many international airlines there, and after looking it up online they have quite the list. Besides the shared airlines, they also have Aer Lingus, ANA, Asiana, British, Cathay, Emirates, Eva, Hainan, Hawaiian, Iceland, Japan, Korean, Qatar, Singapore, and Virgin Atlantic to name a few. Any reason why their network is much more extensive than ours? I'm aware as a west coast city they have greater connections to east Asia, yet with southeast Michigan having one of the largest middle-eastern populations in the US, I feel like it would make sense for us to have possibly Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar, Turkish, Indian, etc. I figured this might have something to do with population, as Seattle's population is around 724,000 as of 2019 and Detroit's is about 50,000 under at around 674,000 as of 2019 as well. Yet as we know Detroit has suffered a lot in the past few decades which led people to move further north and west into other neighborhoods, which led me to check Michigan's population count and finding it to be around 9.9 million as of 2019, which surprised me since I found out Washington State's population as of 2019 was only 7.9 million, around 2 million fewer people. My guess is that since DTW is one of Delta's largest hubs, Delta is hindering any expansion of any other airline to DTW, yet, where do most passengers from the middle east and west Asia connect to on Delta? I know many people from Albania and India connect through LH to DTW, which, correct me if I'm wrong, will possibly happen when Delta starts FRA-DTW next month. Yet I still feel like the only real gateway to the middle east if RJ, which I found out really isn't that big of an airline. I just hope that sometime in the future, hopefully the near future, we may see more of a variety here at DTW. I especially have high hopes for Turkish starting service here, as rumored it would begin coming to DTW and SEA, hopefully sometime this year. So yeah does anybody have any thoughts or knowledge to bring about with this topic?


I pulled out some statistics comparing the DTW and SEA markets:

DTW MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) population: 4,392,041
SEA MSA Population: 4,018,598 (closer in size than I expected)

Per capita income DTW MSA $58,356
Per capita income SEA MSA $80,420

There is just a lot more wealth in Seattle than the DTW MSA, of course the housing costs in SEA are obscene compared to DTW.


What is the per capita income without Detroit proper included? I’d bet it’s SIGNIFICANTLY higher than with Detroit proper included.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1993
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:35 pm

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:
Prost wrote:
dreamer1926 wrote:
Been thinking about this a lot lately... does anyone else wonder why DTW has so few international airlines? I'm aware we're a Delta hub, but mainly right now for European destinations such as CDG, AMS, LHR, and soon-to-be FRA with DL, and then we have ICN and NRT. Yet I feel like southeast Michigan's population as well as diversity don't reflect with what DTW offers. Besides NK and F9s leisure Cancun flights, and Air Canada's YYZ and soon-to-be YUL flights, we are really only left with LH, RJ, AF, and AM. Last year when I visited SEA, I remember seeing many international airlines there, and after looking it up online they have quite the list. Besides the shared airlines, they also have Aer Lingus, ANA, Asiana, British, Cathay, Emirates, Eva, Hainan, Hawaiian, Iceland, Japan, Korean, Qatar, Singapore, and Virgin Atlantic to name a few. Any reason why their network is much more extensive than ours? I'm aware as a west coast city they have greater connections to east Asia, yet with southeast Michigan having one of the largest middle-eastern populations in the US, I feel like it would make sense for us to have possibly Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar, Turkish, Indian, etc. I figured this might have something to do with population, as Seattle's population is around 724,000 as of 2019 and Detroit's is about 50,000 under at around 674,000 as of 2019 as well. Yet as we know Detroit has suffered a lot in the past few decades which led people to move further north and west into other neighborhoods, which led me to check Michigan's population count and finding it to be around 9.9 million as of 2019, which surprised me since I found out Washington State's population as of 2019 was only 7.9 million, around 2 million fewer people. My guess is that since DTW is one of Delta's largest hubs, Delta is hindering any expansion of any other airline to DTW, yet, where do most passengers from the middle east and west Asia connect to on Delta? I know many people from Albania and India connect through LH to DTW, which, correct me if I'm wrong, will possibly happen when Delta starts FRA-DTW next month. Yet I still feel like the only real gateway to the middle east if RJ, which I found out really isn't that big of an airline. I just hope that sometime in the future, hopefully the near future, we may see more of a variety here at DTW. I especially have high hopes for Turkish starting service here, as rumored it would begin coming to DTW and SEA, hopefully sometime this year. So yeah does anybody have any thoughts or knowledge to bring about with this topic?


I pulled out some statistics comparing the DTW and SEA markets:

DTW MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) population: 4,392,041
SEA MSA Population: 4,018,598 (closer in size than I expected)

Per capita income DTW MSA $58,356
Per capita income SEA MSA $80,420

There is just a lot more wealth in Seattle than the DTW MSA, of course the housing costs in SEA are obscene compared to DTW.


What is the per capita income without Detroit proper included? I’d bet it’s SIGNIFICANTLY higher than with Detroit proper included.


I’m sure seattles would be significantly higher with several larger areas taken out. That’s just not how it works. Seattle just has a lot more money.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:57 pm

Ill weigh in on this simply because population size figures are horrible way to gage demand. Let me also preface by saying Detroit is one of my favorite cities and I actually like it more than Seattle, but I dont think its too difficult to understand why DTW isnt the hotbed for international airlines like SEA is (to a degree).

1) Demographics. Detroit's international community is so heavily skewed towards the Middle East and India with smaller pockets of Albanians and Mexicans. With the possible exception of Indian's most immigrants who come to Detroit dont come with much. Whereas Seattle's immigrant community is very heavily Asian and most immigrate for technology jobs that pay quite highly. As has been mentioned before, the salaries in the Greater Seattle Area are much higher leaving more disposable income for people to travel.

2) Tourism. Seattle is a city where many want to visit. Detroit wont draw too many international tourists.

3) Industry. Seattle and Detroit both have economies that arent very diverse but tech is very hot right now. The auto industry is much more established and doesnt evolve as rapidly. The auto industry travel trends are much more defined towards Germany, Mexico, China, Korea, and Japan. Its not as overarching.

4) Reputation. Detroit has a very poor reputation globally. Seattle has a very good one. To be frank, I think its mostly BS. Downtown Detroit is one of my favorite places to be while Ive personally seen someone take a dump right next to me while I was waiting for an Uber on the sidewalk in Seattle. But it is what it is.

I honestly understand some of the frustration of Detroiters. My city (Houston) is in the same camp on some levels. People think of us as an urban center with illegal immigrants, human trafficking, and high crime instead of many world class features we do offer. We also dont get much in the way of tourism. Our savior (in terms of international travel demand) comes from massive amounts of ethnic diversity and huge immigrant populations along with the energy industry requiring it. But perception hurts. Seattle is a very popular city, Detroit (and Houston for that matter) isnt when it comes to places people want to visit.
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:32 pm

I know DL dropped AVP/MHT/SWF/ERI from DTW during covid as they left those markets altogether. I know they haven't resumed any of those but I would be surprised if DL resumes MHT service from DTW down the road with 1-2x daily CRJ-900 flights - they were flying 717s on that route in the summer a couple years ago. I could also see AVP coming back but I'd assume that would be a split between ATL and DTW, maybe 1x daily CRJ-900 from each city. SWF/ERI are probably gone for good considering the CRJ-200s are going away and those were pretty much all CRJ-200.

I know DL also completely dropped CAK, but IIRC, they only flew to ATL from CAK at the time and they had cut CAK-DTW a while back. Don't see that route coming back, either.
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:41 pm

As for the at-risk CRJ-200 out of DTW, I think a decent number of those routes could be upgauged to a CRJ-900 (but maybe lose a frequency as a result).

ATW/AZO/CHA/CID/CLE/CMH/DAY/FWA/SAW/GRB/MBS/LAN/LEX/SYR/TVC/TYS/YUL/YYZ all have CRJ-200s on some of those routes, and I think they can all easily support upgauging to CRJ-900s - many of these markets have or still have larger aircraft including CRJ-900s also operating on the route.

BGM/CWA/ITH/UNV are interesting ones that I could see going either way. CWA is also served from MSP so it wouldn't surprise me if DL cut DTW-CWA in favor of MSP-CWA eventually. The other ones are exclusively served by DTW so I question if DL ends up dropping those markets altogether or ups them to CRJ-900s eventually. I personally see ITH and UNV getting an upgauge but I sort of think BGM would be cut. We will have to see.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:03 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:
Prost wrote:

I pulled out some statistics comparing the DTW and SEA markets:

DTW MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) population: 4,392,041
SEA MSA Population: 4,018,598 (closer in size than I expected)

Per capita income DTW MSA $58,356
Per capita income SEA MSA $80,420

There is just a lot more wealth in Seattle than the DTW MSA, of course the housing costs in SEA are obscene compared to DTW.


What is the per capita income without Detroit proper included? I’d bet it’s SIGNIFICANTLY higher than with Detroit proper included.


I’m sure seattles would be significantly higher with several larger areas taken out. That’s just not how it works. Seattle just has a lot more money.


It is deceiptful.

#!) It's not cherry picking -- Detroit city has an (official) population of around 700K with a per capita income of less than $20K. There is not another metro area in the entire country that has such a large population base that's a huge drag. And yes, while Metro Detroit's housing prices haven't kept up with the rest of the nation since the Great Recession (that's actually a good thing -- in the markets seeing the largest gains, it's largely investor-driven), comparing Metro Seattle's housing prices to Detroit city as a representation of Metro Detroit is just foolhardy.

#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income. A lesson I love to give: Gross income = your total income. Disposal income = your gross income sans taxes. Discretionary income = your disposal income sans obligatory expenses. The reality is, when you're making those huge mortgage payments in Seattle -- and the property taxes that come with it -- it's eating up a large chunk of your discretionary income, unless you bought years ago.

#3) I've did this exercise numerous times, but nobody actually bothers to learn anything, so I'll summarize: if you take the amount of long-haul capacity at each airport per local passenger... DTW is near the bottom (that is, less overall capacity per local passenger) and SEA is near the top (more capacity per local passenger).
 
cdgdtw
Posts: 167
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:28 pm

[list=][/list]

Back to Evans terminal nonsense...why, WHY can't we be like the big kids and just call it Terminal 1, 2, etc..? It's more efficient and no one knows/cares who Evans and McNamara are/were.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:42 pm

N292UX wrote:

ATW/AZO/CHA/CID/CLE/CMH/DAY/FWA/SAW/GRB/MBS/LAN/LEX/SYR/TVC/TYS/YUL/YYZ all have CRJ-200s on some of those routes, and I think they can all easily support upgauging to CRJ-900s - many of these markets have or still have larger aircraft including CRJ-900s also operating on the route.


The problem with arguing that those DTW markets can 'easily' support upgauging is scope clause: DL won't have an infinite number of 76-seat RJs. (And, no, they aren't going to operated hundreds of CR9/E75 handicapped to 70 seats.)

How DL threads the needle of CR2 eliminations, 2-class RJs, 717 retirements and A220 buys may be the DL story of the decade.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:18 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income.


Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income.


Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/


Uh, no, that article is using disposable income (again, net income less taxes) and adjusting it for cost of living using Sperling's Best Places as a data point. A 2018 Detroit Free Press article compares living in Metro Detroit to the communities, and suggests you'd have to earn nearly $150K in Seattle to enjoy a similar lifestyle as somebody earning $50K in Metro Detroit. I wouldn't consider either source reliable ;).

Google "Metro Detroit discretionary income" and you'll find plenty of sources that have listed it at/near the top over the years.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:43 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income.


Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/


Uh, no, that article is using disposable income (again, net income less taxes) and adjusting it for cost of living using Sperling's Best Places as a data point. A 2018 Detroit Free Press article compares living in Metro Detroit to the communities, and suggests you'd have to earn nearly $150K in Seattle to enjoy a similar lifestyle as somebody earning $50K in Metro Detroit. I wouldn't consider either source reliable ;).

Google "Metro Detroit discretionary income" and you'll find plenty of sources that have listed it at/near the top over the years.


The Seattle metro area has more money than DTW. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that. You’re quick to “fanboy” every other city thread but are constantly trying to prop up DTW to be something it’s not.

SEA is a significantly larger economy than DTW, and the gap will only continue to grow. Finding “discretionary income” statistics to try to justify a point is silly, and no serious argument would be made that shows any direct correlation to that and propensity to travel, which is also higher for SEA too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... eas_by_GDP

Jeremy
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1993
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:19 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income.


Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/


Uh, no, that article is using disposable income (again, net income less taxes) and adjusting it for cost of living using Sperling's Best Places as a data point. A 2018 Detroit Free Press article compares living in Metro Detroit to the communities, and suggests you'd have to earn nearly $150K in Seattle to enjoy a similar lifestyle as somebody earning $50K in Metro Detroit. I wouldn't consider either source reliable ;).

Google "Metro Detroit discretionary income" and you'll find plenty of sources that have listed it at/near the top over the years.


you'll also find plenty that list in the bottom. You can find whatever you want basically. The bottom line, as pointed out above, is that there's a lot more money in the Seattle MSA than in the Detroit MSA. It's not like Detroit is some undiscovered secret that the airlines just haven't figured out. Seattle just provides a better return for their investment in providing service. Detroit is a lot cheaper to live in than Seattle - the average household wage is also significantly lower. Every MSA has areas that drag the averages down - Seattle does too. Detroit's just happens to be... well, Detroit.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:58 pm

SESGDL wrote:

The Seattle metro area has more money than DTW. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that. You’re quick to “fanboy” every other city thread but are constantly trying to prop up DTW to be something it’s not.

SEA is a significantly larger economy than DTW, and the gap will only continue to grow. Finding “discretionary income” statistics to try to justify a point is silly, and no serious argument would be made that shows any direct correlation to that and propensity to travel, which is also higher for SEA too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... eas_by_GDP

Jeremy


Quote from the Delta Network thread.

"When in the world is DL going to add SEA-DFW? Such a massive hole. There’s no reason DL can’t through a couple A220s to satisfy the frequent flier base. Odd that DL continues to avoid this market (LAX-ORD is another).

Jeremy"

I expect everyone to support their hometown airport. But to criticize someone about being a fanboy when you just posted a fanboy message yourself?
Yes, I live in Metro Detroit. I'm glad that DTW is now one of the better airport facilities you will find anywhere. It wasn't like that before.
Will I ever fly to/through Seattle? Probably not. But it's not because I find anything wrong with the people or economy of Seattle.
Please return the courtesy, thank you.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 941
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:09 am

SESGDL wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/


Uh, no, that article is using disposable income (again, net income less taxes) and adjusting it for cost of living using Sperling's Best Places as a data point. A 2018 Detroit Free Press article compares living in Metro Detroit to the communities, and suggests you'd have to earn nearly $150K in Seattle to enjoy a similar lifestyle as somebody earning $50K in Metro Detroit. I wouldn't consider either source reliable ;).

Google "Metro Detroit discretionary income" and you'll find plenty of sources that have listed it at/near the top over the years.


The Seattle metro area has more money than DTW. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that. You’re quick to “fanboy” every other city thread but are constantly trying to prop up DTW to be something it’s not.

SEA is a significantly larger economy than DTW, and the gap will only continue to grow. Finding “discretionary income” statistics to try to justify a point is silly, and no serious argument would be made that shows any direct correlation to that and propensity to travel, which is also higher for SEA too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... eas_by_GDP

Jeremy


I merely wrote that Metro Detroit wasn't as poor as what the OP claimed it to be. And why is it always the same few users who provide misleading information in attempt to constantly bash DTW? I get it -- one of you lived or worked here but didn't like it, and other thinks MSP would be bigger than ATL if not for DTW.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:46 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
I'm glad that DTW is now one of the better airport facilities you will find anywhere. It wasn't like that before.


I know you were speaking to someone else on this forum but I just wanted to say that I think DTW is leagues better than SEA in terms of airports. DTW is one of the nicest airports in the country and, sadly, became vastly underutilized after DL took over. There's so much space there that could be put to use if DL funneled more traffic through it. SEA is a dump in terms of airports. There are broken escalators and elevators every single day - multiple, not just one. Construction is never ending. There are buckets in parts of the terminal to collect rainwater. The narrow hallways and small gate areas were designed for a time when planes weren't constantly full. There are decent food concessions depending on which terminal you're in, but not throughout the entire airport. The North Satellite is a wasteland in terms of stores and restaurants. The customs facility is a dump. The trains are from another era entirely. All that to say, SEA can't hold a candle to how nice DTW is.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:01 am

N292UX wrote:
As for the at-risk CRJ-200 out of DTW, I think a decent number of those routes could be upgauged to a CRJ-900 (but maybe lose a frequency as a result).

ATW/AZO/CHA/CID/CLE/CMH/DAY/FWA/SAW/GRB/MBS/LAN/LEX/SYR/TVC/TYS/YUL/YYZ all have CRJ-200s on some of those routes, and I think they can all easily support upgauging to CRJ-900s - many of these markets have or still have larger aircraft including CRJ-900s also operating on the route.

BGM/CWA/ITH/UNV are interesting ones that I could see going either way. CWA is also served from MSP so it wouldn't surprise me if DL cut DTW-CWA in favor of MSP-CWA eventually. The other ones are exclusively served by DTW so I question if DL ends up dropping those markets altogether or ups them to CRJ-900s eventually. I personally see ITH and UNV getting an upgauge but I sort of think BGM would be cut. We will have to see.

I'm on vacation this week, so not going to pull a bunch of data, but I posted something on this awhile ago.
Many of those markets above have or had seen a mixture of 2-class RJs and mainline at times. There are only a handful of true CR2 markets left out of DTW, that weren't cut during the pandemic, or before.

There is only a small amount of "at-risk" CR2 flying out of DTW.
The CR2s flown by 9E / Pinnacle, aren't really "at-risk" as they are operated under the capacity purchase agreement. Granted, 9E is a wholy-owned of Delta, so they control the fate of this flying.
The CR2 flying by OO / Skywest at DTW is "at-risk/pro-rate". The majority of this is the EAS flying to ESC, IMT, APN, PLN, CIU but there are a few non-EAS, truly "at-risk" markets like MQT, FWA & UNV for example but some of these go back and forth between 9E and OO.

I'll pull the the current CR2 flights next week for further discusion...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9502
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:05 am

cdgdtw wrote:
[list=][/list]

Back to Evans terminal nonsense...why, WHY can't we be like the big kids and just call it Terminal 1, 2, etc..? It's more efficient and no one knows/cares who Evans and McNamara are/were.

Its dumb, stupid, and just typical Southeast Michigan politics. I am amazed how quick they were to slap up the Evans name on all signage, yet the signage on the south entrance road up by the McNamara terminal is so faded, pealing, and barely readible. How about fixing the existing signage and massive potholes before virtue-signaling by changing the name of the terminal that no one cares about.

FWIW everyone I know refers to them as "The Delta Terminal" or "The North Terminal".

Lets become a big-boy airport and stop naming our terminals after politicians.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9502
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:07 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
#2) Metro Detroit -- including Detroit city -- consistently ranks near the top in discretionary income.


Show us your data source.

The article hyperlinked below shows metro Detroit having a 15th percentile discretionary income, and Seattle 80th percentile, among the 75 largest U.S. metro areas. No, Seattle's housing costs don't consume all of the per capita income that ranks among ther top ten of all 300+ Census Bureau metro areas.

The Mods have directed that assertions of fact shall require a source. The article in that link sources data from the IRS and U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, a unit of the Dept of Commerce.

https://listwithclever.com/research/cit ... -paycheck/


Uh, no, that article is using disposable income (again, net income less taxes) and adjusting it for cost of living using Sperling's Best Places as a data point. A 2018 Detroit Free Press article compares living in Metro Detroit to the communities, and suggests you'd have to earn nearly $150K in Seattle to enjoy a similar lifestyle as somebody earning $50K in Metro Detroit. I wouldn't consider either source reliable ;).

Google "Metro Detroit discretionary income" and you'll find plenty of sources that have listed it at/near the top over the years.

FWIW - a lot of my friends have a ton of disposable income but they are buying boats and SxS Razors instead of traveling......
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