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PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9499
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:11 am

ASFlyer wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I'm glad that DTW is now one of the better airport facilities you will find anywhere. It wasn't like that before.


I know you were speaking to someone else on this forum but I just wanted to say that I think DTW is leagues better than SEA in terms of airports. DTW is one of the nicest airports in the country and, sadly, became vastly underutilized after DL took over. There's so much space there that could be put to use if DL funneled more traffic through it. SEA is a dump in terms of airports. There are broken escalators and elevators every single day - multiple, not just one. Construction is never ending. There are buckets in parts of the terminal to collect rainwater. The narrow hallways and small gate areas were designed for a time when planes weren't constantly full. There are decent food concessions depending on which terminal you're in, but not throughout the entire airport. The North Satellite is a wasteland in terms of stores and restaurants. The customs facility is a dump. The trains are from another era entirely. All that to say, SEA can't hold a candle to how nice DTW is.

Dude....tell me about it. I am glad we have DTW as (my) hometown airport. Arguably the easiest large hub airport to use as a originating passenger. (I give a downgrade to the rental car/ground transportation issue but that doesn't really impact me).

I am a regular traveler through DEN, ORD, DFW, ATL, IAD and DTW is just so user-friendly in a variety of ways. Maybe its repetition or muscle memory but its just so easy to use, and navigate. Doesn't have the overcrowded or other insane issues other places tend to have, or long transit times.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3169
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:18 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

The Seattle metro area has more money than DTW. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that. You’re quick to “fanboy” every other city thread but are constantly trying to prop up DTW to be something it’s not.

SEA is a significantly larger economy than DTW, and the gap will only continue to grow. Finding “discretionary income” statistics to try to justify a point is silly, and no serious argument would be made that shows any direct correlation to that and propensity to travel, which is also higher for SEA too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... eas_by_GDP

Jeremy


Quote from the Delta Network thread.

"When in the world is DL going to add SEA-DFW? Such a massive hole. There’s no reason DL can’t through a couple A220s to satisfy the frequent flier base. Odd that DL continues to avoid this market (LAX-ORD is another).

Jeremy"

I expect everyone to support their hometown airport. But to criticize someone about being a fanboy when you just posted a fanboy message yourself?
Yes, I live in Metro Detroit. I'm glad that DTW is now one of the better airport facilities you will find anywhere. It wasn't like that before.
Will I ever fly to/through Seattle? Probably not. But it's not because I find anything wrong with the people or economy of Seattle.
Please return the courtesy, thank you.


Huh? I’m from MSP. MSP wasn’t referenced anywhere in my post.

Jeremy
 
reasonable
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:20 pm

The biggest tell is that DTW is one of the largest airports without an existing or planned Centurion Lounge...
 
FLYKTPA
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:39 pm

Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:54 pm

reasonable wrote:
The biggest tell is that DTW is one of the largest airports without an existing or planned Centurion Lounge...

That there's the Delta Terminal and there's the (almost) Everybody Else Terminal is likely a major factor in that fact.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:56 pm

FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/

I still don't trust any announcement without a firm date or more than 6 months out.
It's always nice to be wrong but...
 
reasonable
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:02 pm

FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/


Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6913
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:11 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/

I still don't trust any announcement without a firm date or more than 6 months out.
It's always nice to be wrong but...


That route is overdue. DTW is a rich source of O&D to the Levant Region which IST is perfectly suited to cater to. DTW can support RJ and TK just fine.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:00 pm

reasonable wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/


Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.


You're not aware of the history of the North Terminal. In 1958, in effort to consolidate local air service form YIP and make DTW the region's primary gateway, DTW offered its tenants a 50-year sweetheart deal that (among other items) gave them veto power over capital projects. This is why DTW, once the expansion projects outlined in the 1958 agreement were complete, was unable to proceed with any significant expansion/ modernization efforts until the advert of the PFC and NW's willingness to sign a separate agreement for its own use. But NW's agreement also stipulated that the former Davey Terminal needed to be torn-down and rebuilt by 2008... when the 50-year agreement expired. In the early 2000s, DTW (and later WCAA) proposed several designs for the new North Terminal that were largely based on scaled-down versions of Midfield, but the tenants - lead by NK & WN, who publicly supported the projected -- absolutely refused to sign a new lease, and the project was shelved.

By the mid-2000s, construction costs had swelled and building a scaled-down version of Midfield was cost prohibitive. The tenants, again lead by NK & WN, aggressively fought the projected before agreeing to the chosen design, which was built for functionality and cost with minimal aesthetics. I agree that the design is underwhelming and was poorly executed. For example, WCAA was so focused on cost, they left their administrative offices in the LC Smith Terminal and opted not to demolish it. But the facility was so bloated and in such disrepair that the Freep estimated DTW spent in excess of $10M some years in maintenance, repairs & utilities.

But to your point, WCAA is currently overhauling the shopping & dining options in the North Terminal (recall, it opened during the Great Recession). Only a few tenants will remain, and the new / planned options are pretty solid. As far as no further space for lounges... I don't believe that's correct, as the facility was planned to have lounges for both LH & BA (who pulled out after its design). There's also some space that has yet to be built out...
 
reasonable
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:24 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
reasonable wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/


Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.


You're not aware of the history of the North Terminal. In 1958, in effort to consolidate local air service form YIP and make DTW the region's primary gateway, DTW offered its tenants a 50-year sweetheart deal that (among other items) gave them veto power over capital projects. This is why DTW, once the expansion projects outlined in the 1958 agreement were complete, was unable to proceed with any significant expansion/ modernization efforts until the advert of the PFC and NW's willingness to sign a separate agreement for its own use. But NW's agreement also stipulated that the former Davey Terminal needed to be torn-down and rebuilt by 2008... when the 50-year agreement expired. In the early 2000s, DTW (and later WCAA) proposed several designs for the new North Terminal that were largely based on scaled-down versions of Midfield, but the tenants - lead by NK & WN, who publicly supported the projected -- absolutely refused to sign a new lease, and the project was shelved.

By the mid-2000s, construction costs had swelled and building a scaled-down version of Midfield was cost prohibitive. The tenants, again lead by NK & WN, aggressively fought the projected before agreeing to the chosen design, which was built for functionality and cost with minimal aesthetics. I agree that the design is underwhelming and was poorly executed. For example, WCAA was so focused on cost, they left their administrative offices in the LC Smith Terminal and opted not to demolish it. But the facility was so bloated and in such disrepair that the Freep estimated DTW spent in excess of $10M some years in maintenance, repairs & utilities.

But to your point, WCAA is currently overhauling the shopping & dining options in the North Terminal (recall, it opened during the Great Recession). Only a few tenants will remain, and the new / planned options are pretty solid. As far as no further space for lounges... I don't believe that's correct, as the facility was planned to have lounges for both LH & BA (who pulled out after its design). There's also some space that has yet to be built out...


Super interesting! Thanks for sharing this history.
 
iluvairplanes99
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:10 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:31 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
reasonable wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/


Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.


You're not aware of the history of the North Terminal. In 1958, in effort to consolidate local air service form YIP and make DTW the region's primary gateway, DTW offered its tenants a 50-year sweetheart deal that (among other items) gave them veto power over capital projects. This is why DTW, once the expansion projects outlined in the 1958 agreement were complete, was unable to proceed with any significant expansion/ modernization efforts until the advert of the PFC and NW's willingness to sign a separate agreement for its own use. But NW's agreement also stipulated that the former Davey Terminal needed to be torn-down and rebuilt by 2008... when the 50-year agreement expired. In the early 2000s, DTW (and later WCAA) proposed several designs for the new North Terminal that were largely based on scaled-down versions of Midfield, but the tenants - lead by NK & WN, who publicly supported the projected -- absolutely refused to sign a new lease, and the project was shelved.

By the mid-2000s, construction costs had swelled and building a scaled-down version of Midfield was cost prohibitive. The tenants, again lead by NK & WN, aggressively fought the projected before agreeing to the chosen design, which was built for functionality and cost with minimal aesthetics. I agree that the design is underwhelming and was poorly executed. For example, WCAA was so focused on cost, they left their administrative offices in the LC Smith Terminal and opted not to demolish it. But the facility was so bloated and in such disrepair that the Freep estimated DTW spent in excess of $10M some years in maintenance, repairs & utilities.

But to your point, WCAA is currently overhauling the shopping & dining options in the North Terminal (recall, it opened during the Great Recession). Only a few tenants will remain, and the new / planned options are pretty solid. As far as no further space for lounges... I don't believe that's correct, as the facility was planned to have lounges for both LH & BA (who pulled out after its design). There's also some space that has yet to be built out...


Super interesting thanks for sharing. Something I’ve wondered if there were ever a chance midfield became common use again? Especially with up gauging, is there something in the contract that prohibits that? Or maybe it’s facilities fees?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm

iluvairplanes99 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
reasonable wrote:

Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.


You're not aware of the history of the North Terminal. In 1958, in effort to consolidate local air service form YIP and make DTW the region's primary gateway, DTW offered its tenants a 50-year sweetheart deal that (among other items) gave them veto power over capital projects. This is why DTW, once the expansion projects outlined in the 1958 agreement were complete, was unable to proceed with any significant expansion/ modernization efforts until the advert of the PFC and NW's willingness to sign a separate agreement for its own use. But NW's agreement also stipulated that the former Davey Terminal needed to be torn-down and rebuilt by 2008... when the 50-year agreement expired. In the early 2000s, DTW (and later WCAA) proposed several designs for the new North Terminal that were largely based on scaled-down versions of Midfield, but the tenants - lead by NK & WN, who publicly supported the projected -- absolutely refused to sign a new lease, and the project was shelved.

By the mid-2000s, construction costs had swelled and building a scaled-down version of Midfield was cost prohibitive. The tenants, again lead by NK & WN, aggressively fought the projected before agreeing to the chosen design, which was built for functionality and cost with minimal aesthetics. I agree that the design is underwhelming and was poorly executed. For example, WCAA was so focused on cost, they left their administrative offices in the LC Smith Terminal and opted not to demolish it. But the facility was so bloated and in such disrepair that the Freep estimated DTW spent in excess of $10M some years in maintenance, repairs & utilities.

But to your point, WCAA is currently overhauling the shopping & dining options in the North Terminal (recall, it opened during the Great Recession). Only a few tenants will remain, and the new / planned options are pretty solid. As far as no further space for lounges... I don't believe that's correct, as the facility was planned to have lounges for both LH & BA (who pulled out after its design). There's also some space that has yet to be built out...


Super interesting thanks for sharing. Something I’ve wondered if there were ever a chance midfield became common use again? Especially with up gauging, is there something in the contract that prohibits that? Or maybe it’s facilities fees?


DL has exclusivity at Midfield for at least another decade (NW signed 30-year leases, and the facility opened in phases). The "problem" is that Midfield was designed to be a single-airline facility. Think about its design... "C" can reasonably accommodate only regional jets, "B" has less shopping/dining / tight gate holds / and is a long walk for local passengers, and "A" is spaced out -- large gates designed for widebodies/customs access, small gate holds designed for 100-passenger DC-9, and group seating at either end that's an awfully long walk. While DL clearly has excess gate space, there's not a block of gates DL could easily relinquish that would be satisfactory to it and the other airline. That's not accounting for backoffice operations.
 
umichman
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:47 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
reasonable wrote:
The biggest tell is that DTW is one of the largest airports without an existing or planned Centurion Lounge...

That there's the Delta Terminal and there's the (almost) Everybody Else Terminal is likely a major factor in that fact.


Exactly. Amex Plat/Centurion cardholders will have access to one of the 5 Sky Clubs in McNamara by virtue of the fact they are almost certainly flying a Delta or Delta partner flight when in that terminal. The far more limited number of pax at North Terminal, and the fact that the LH club takes Priority Pass which comes with Plat/Centurion cards, likely does not justify building a separate Centurion Lounge there.
 
graham697
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:59 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:18 am

There was space for a lounge on AA end of the terminal and for us AA elites there was a small rumor that an Admirals Club could come to DTW. Alas it seems like that space is being claimed for something else.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11281
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:32 pm

reasonable wrote:
On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.


That's a completely misplaced criticism. The North/Evans terminal is going to be (almost exclusively) O&D. People aren't there to shop. They're not killing hours between flights. The restaurants are what the market supports.
 
reasonable
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.


That's a completely misplaced criticism. The North/Evans terminal is going to be (almost exclusively) O&D. People aren't there to shop. They're not killing hours between flights. The restaurants are what the market supports.


Yeah you're right about O&D but I don't think that makes the criticism misplaced.

The current state isn't a reason for why it shouldn't be something more. That's what "value-add" means. If North functioned as it needs to and it was a place where travelers wanted to travel through because the amenities and experience offered enhanced the travel experience so much then that would do more for customers and for airlines looking to fill their planes.
 
Seat1F
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.
I don't hate it

That's a completely misplaced criticism. The North/Evans terminal is going to be (almost exclusively) O&D. People aren't there to shop. They're not killing hours between flights. The restaurants are what the market supports.


I don't think its completely misplaced criticism. It is a cheap facility. Everything about it screams "cheap". I do however agree with you that the shopping and food options are what they are.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9499
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:20 pm

Not to mention that probably about 50% of departures / departing passengers out of the North leave between 5-9am.

Conversely 50% of arriving passengers are between 9pm-1am.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9499
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:24 pm

I don’t think any passengers are specifically avoiding the North Terminal because of style or ammenties.
Keep in mind also 50%+ are on ULCC / LCC.
Sure it could be more but oh well. It’s a lot better than the dilapidated Smith at the end.

As I posted awhile back there is $30 M multi year refresh planned for the North.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:24 pm

No question that it wasn't built to be one of the world wonders.
But it is functional.
As for lack of shopping, an airport isn't where I personally am going to do it.
I won't go for food either. But food is something that needs to be there.
You can't expect world class food given the relatively small amount of foot traffic most of which is mainly interested in getting in and out quickly.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9499
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:35 pm

And on the flip side everyone complains about how expensive everything is at the airport. Who cares if there isn’t a Brooks Brothers in the airport this isn’t 1987.
 
reasonable
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:02 pm

All these comments about amenities are totally reasonable. I get it, as a description of how things currently function.

But again, lots of referencing the status quo as a justification for the status quo—a circular argument. If DTW wanted to expand the value it offers to passengers and carriers, one way to do that is to invest in the facilities, the amenities, and the campus. Other airports of all sizes do it, and so can DTW. Can you imagine if people invested in things based on existing behaviors and expectations instead of potential new ones? A lack of imagination is the worst of all reasons, and unfortunately that pretty accurately describes most of SE Michigan.

I only fly DL at DTW because Evans doesn't offer anything. When I fly LH overseas I only go through a Star Alliance hub because there's so much more available to make the experience nice. Also, FWIW, I'm O&D and yet I've still peeped into Brooks Brothers. They have good deals sometimes.
 
kavok
Posts: 1152
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:37 pm

My biggest complaint for North Terminal is that it doesn’t have AA & UA lounges. I had a business associate from elsewhere visit DTW once (AA loyalty, not an AvGeek) and thought Detroit was a tiny market airport because the airport “wasn’t even big enough to justify a AA or UA club”.

As others have mentioned, DTW is a great airport if you are a local, or connecting on DL. But if you are a visitor from elsewhere coming to the region… 1) the rental car & ground transportation situation is not good… and 2) if you are a visiting AA/UA loyalist, no lounge for you.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:29 pm

reasonable wrote:
All these comments about amenities are totally reasonable. I get it, as a description of how things currently function.

But again, lots of referencing the status quo as a justification for the status quo—a circular argument. If DTW wanted to expand the value it offers to passengers and carriers, one way to do that is to invest in the facilities, the amenities, and the campus. Other airports of all sizes do it, and so can DTW. Can you imagine if people invested in things based on existing behaviors and expectations instead of potential new ones? A lack of imagination is the worst of all reasons, and unfortunately that pretty accurately describes most of SE Michigan.

I only fly DL at DTW because Evans doesn't offer anything. When I fly LH overseas I only go through a Star Alliance hub because there's so much more available to make the experience nice. Also, FWIW, I'm O&D and yet I've still peeped into Brooks Brothers. They have good deals sometimes.


PSU brought up the most relevant point - the lion's share of passengers at North are traveling on LCC WN, NK and F9, and many of the passengers on AA & UA are flying them only because they got a better price than on DL A few years ago, I had a conversation with former Lions great that you've probably never heard of James Thrower (him and his family now own a ton of McDonald's, including both DTW locations) and he told me the North Terminal McD's regularly outperforms the Midfield location in revenue, despite the fact that North sees significantly less traffic and virtually no connections. That should tell you a lot about the people who travel from North. There's no way the terminal could support a Brooks Brothers. That said, the terminal is currently overhauling its concessions/retail, and the new line-up is pretty solid and competitive with most other airport facilities. Yes, you'll find sticky tables at Outback in lieu of white table clothes at fine dining, but that's in line with the clientele.

That said, what other amenities is the terminal missing? United (Red Carpet) Club members have long had access to the LH lounge, and now Priority Pass can join them -- and it's a really, really good club. With two eligible flights (one of them being NK to CUN), you're simply not going to find a fully stocked Duty Free Shop. But I can't imagine people choosing to connect in Chicago or drive to Toronto for a better selection. If TK does indeed launch service, and LH resumes plans for MUC, I would expect that there would be a better Duty Free selection.

kavok wrote:
My biggest complaint for North Terminal is that it doesn’t have AA & UA lounges. I had a business associate from elsewhere visit DTW once (AA loyalty, not an AvGeek) and thought Detroit was a tiny market airport because the airport “wasn’t even big enough to justify a AA or UA club”.

As others have mentioned, DTW is a great airport if you are a local, or connecting on DL. But if you are a visitor from elsewhere coming to the region… 1) the rental car & ground transportation situation is not good… and 2) if you are a visiting AA/UA loyalist, no lounge for you.


UA Club members have access to the LH club, and the LH club is nicer than most UA clubs.

The rental car situation is fine -- I'd rather WCAA not build a consolidated facility and slap $20-$30 surcharges onto each rental (or even rental day) to pay for it. Midfield is too distant to build a facility nearby, so a ride would be required anyway. When I was in LAS last month, I waited nearly two hours for a ride to its consolidated facility (spring break + understaffing).

Yes, there's no public transportation, I'll agree with that, although even if I could take a urine-drenched light rail system to DTW from my home in Northern Oakland County, I'd pass.
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:42 pm

reasonable wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
Forbes confirms it:

“Also, stay tuned for a new Detroit gateway launch in the third quarter, and Denver later this year!”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... chief/amp/


Wow, Q3. This is definitely the most focused information so far, and comes straight from the CMO.

It'll be great to see this launch, truly. It's been a long time coming.

And that's why I'm still cautious ~ I'll believe it only when it actually happens. Execs at TK said "we're doing Detroit" a decade ago and nothing happened. I'm not being cynical about progress, only saying that talk is cheap. When it's equipped, loaded, bookable, and operational I'll finally accept it.

On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.

TK will be a good route, and will spur growth. My beef is that nothing else about DTW will reinforce that growth. There's no value added to start service here because the passenger experience is so banal. That's not preventing new routes, it's just that there's no value added when new routes do begin.


Another thing about the Evans to me is just the comparison to the Mac. You'd probably even think the Evans is a few years older than the mac when it's actually the opposite. On the WCAA news page, terminal revamps and improvements were announced that would follow up after the name change. Signage I think is one key improvement I really think they need. Working at the Evans for over a year now you wouldn't believe the number of questions I get asked about where things are such as security and baggage claim, where Delta is lol, and so on. Yes, the signs are relatively straightforward, but just simply straightforward doesn't seem to be good enough for the average person walking through the terminal. For example the information maps posted throughout the terminal need to be updated; the screens have been covered up so many times by stickers of restaurants that were there before, as well as gates D27, D29, and D31 which were all added in late 2019, yet the terminal map does not reflect this. Signage throughout the terminal especially by the ticket counters is designed well, yet incoviently placed and not has big and readable as it should be. The Mac uses signs that are all backlit and stand out while the Evans uses stickers for everything which isn't the best. Luckily with the terminal renaming came improved signage for door numbers in departures and arrivals, although those could be lit up as well. All in all I'm curious as to what exactly these improvements will be, I did hear rumors of a possible expansion...
Last edited by dreamer1926 on Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I don’t think any passengers are specifically avoiding the North Terminal because of style or ammenties.
Keep in mind also 50%+ are on ULCC / LCC.
Sure it could be more but oh well. It’s a lot better than the dilapidated Smith at the end.

As I posted awhile back there is $30 M multi year refresh planned for the North.


How far back was your post? I'm curious at what a $30 M refresh would offer.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:42 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
North Terminal McD's regularly outperforms the Midfield location in revenue, despite the fact that North sees significantly less traffic and virtually no connections. That should tell you a lot about the people who travel from North. There's no way the terminal could support a Brooks Brothers. That said, the terminal is currently overhauling its concessions/retail, and the new line-up is pretty solid and competitive with most other airport facilities. Yes, you'll find sticky tables at Outback in lieu of white table clothes at fine dining, but that's in line with the clientele.


Maybe, but probably not. With all due respect, that POV is a bit cynical. McD's has a varied, quick, recognizable menu that appeals to everybody, especially compared to, say, National Coney Island or the Earl of Sandwich (RIP, they had some good stuff). To me that speaks more about familiarity and just how desperate people are when they get to North Terminal. It makes me think of the McD's locations at ORD—they're slammed all the time and high value passengers are definitely part of the clientele.

It's another example of staus quo as evidence to defend status quo. If anything, the comparison to the McD's in Mac should indicate that more options would result in fewer sales for the McD's in North. Also, it's the same O&D pool for both terminals, no? DL also flies all over white trash riviera, right? Not sure how much you can extrapolate from McDs performance.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Speaking of construction, I did some searching around the WCAA website to see what projects were on tap at DTW for the 2022 construction season.

Overall, a pretty benign list that is almost exclusively routine maintain / refurbishment / replacement. Not surprising considering a vast majority of the infrastructure associated with the Midfield/McNamara terminal is 20 years old.

Here are some of the bigger items for 2022:
- Taxiway Y reconstruction (the parallel taxiway to 4R/22L)
- Taxiway K, Z repairs and miscellaneous AOA pavement repairs
- Electrical distribution system repairs, replacement, upgrades
- Big Blue Parking Deck Floor concrete & guardrail repair (on-going)
- McNamara Parking Deck sealing and coating & drain pipe replacement (on-going)
- McNamara Parking Deck Moving Walkway removal - ?? I assume these are the ones that run along Floor 6 into the terminal bridge?
- Miscellaneous roadway and bridge rehab work (on-going)
- North Terminal Jetbridge pre-conditioned air & GPU replacement; D1-D14
- McNamara Terminal Jetbridge pre-conditioned air & GPU replacement; A1-A35

Looking ahead I see some more interesting capital projects on the horizon over the next 5 years:

AIRFIELD:
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 2: B1-B21 odd/east gates, C1-C27 odd/east gates, A74-A78 (2023)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 3: A4-A60 even/west gates (2024)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 4: B2-B20 even/west gates, C2-C22 even/west gates, 4R deice pad (2025)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 5: A43-A75 odd/east gates (inner alley) (2027)
- Runway 9R/27L mill & overlay (2024)
- Taxiway K reconstruction (2024-2025)
- 3L deice pad reconstruction & expansion (2026)

NORTH TERMINAL:
- North Terminal Refresh ($30M) - (2023-2025)

MCNAMARA TERMINAL:
- Jetbridge replacement ($30M) (2023-2027)
- Bathroom Renovations ($12M) (2023-2025)
- Tunnel Refurbishment ($3M) (2024)
- Ramp Information Display System (RIDS) Replacement ($1.3M) (2023)
- Baggage Handling System & Claims Rehabilitation ($22.5M) (2023-2026)
- Moving walkway & escalator rehabilitation ($20M) (2023-2027)
- Delta Ground Service Equipment (GSE) electrifcation ($28.8M) (2023-2025)
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:01 pm

Here's the thing with the North Terminal.....when 50% of your departing passengers depart between 5-9am, what do they want at that time of the day?
Coffee....pastries, and breakfast sandwiches. Sure there are those that will down beers at 6am, but that the minority.

Over at DL in their terminal you have both O&D and connecting passengers that may have 1-3 hours between connections. You have people getting on/off connecting domestic & international flights. The operation there is much more balanced across the operating day, plus you have more of a captive audience.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:43 pm

reasonable wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
North Terminal McD's regularly outperforms the Midfield location in revenue, despite the fact that North sees significantly less traffic and virtually no connections. That should tell you a lot about the people who travel from North. There's no way the terminal could support a Brooks Brothers. That said, the terminal is currently overhauling its concessions/retail, and the new line-up is pretty solid and competitive with most other airport facilities. Yes, you'll find sticky tables at Outback in lieu of white table clothes at fine dining, but that's in line with the clientele.


Maybe, but probably not. With all due respect, that POV is a bit cynical. McD's has a varied, quick, recognizable menu that appeals to everybody, especially compared to, say, National Coney Island or the Earl of Sandwich (RIP, they had some good stuff). To me that speaks more about familiarity and just how desperate people are when they get to North Terminal. It makes me think of the McD's locations at ORD—they're slammed all the time and high value passengers are definitely part of the clientele.

It's another example of staus quo as evidence to defend status quo. If anything, the comparison to the McD's in Mac should indicate that more options would result in fewer sales for the McD's in North. Also, it's the same O&D pool for both terminals, no? DL also flies all over white trash riviera, right? Not sure how much you can extrapolate from McDs performance.


Not cynical, just a reality. At Midfield, Andiamos' sales are strongest during periods of heavy business travel, whereas McDonalds are strongest during periods of heavy leisure travel. Alas, there aren't enough expense accounts to be charged to to support such dining program at North. That said, I think you're being overly harsh -- North had a pretty solid line-up that included McDonalds, Coffee Beanery, Caribu Coffee (Starbucks was an HMS Host exclusive, although now it's being licensed to non-HMS Host managed facilities), Chammps, Earl of Sandwhich, HockeyTown Cafe, Ruby Tuesday, Friday's, a really good French-sounding bakery/pastry, and more. Some of those concepts have aged out - Chammps and HockeyTown Cafe were extremely popular concepts at one point.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:10 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Speaking of construction, I did some searching around the WCAA website to see what projects were on tap at DTW for the 2022 construction season.

Overall, a pretty benign list that is almost exclusively routine maintain / refurbishment / replacement. Not surprising considering a vast majority of the infrastructure associated with the Midfield/McNamara terminal is 20 years old.

Here are some of the bigger items for 2022:
- Taxiway Y reconstruction (the parallel taxiway to 4R/22L)
- Taxiway K, Z repairs and miscellaneous AOA pavement repairs
- Electrical distribution system repairs, replacement, upgrades
- Big Blue Parking Deck Floor concrete & guardrail repair (on-going)
- McNamara Parking Deck sealing and coating & drain pipe replacement (on-going)
- McNamara Parking Deck Moving Walkway removal - ?? I assume these are the ones that run along Floor 6 into the terminal bridge?
- Miscellaneous roadway and bridge rehab work (on-going)
- North Terminal Jetbridge pre-conditioned air & GPU replacement; D1-D14
- McNamara Terminal Jetbridge pre-conditioned air & GPU replacement; A1-A35

Looking ahead I see some more interesting capital projects on the horizon over the next 5 years:

AIRFIELD:
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 2: B1-B21 odd/east gates, C1-C27 odd/east gates, A74-A78 (2023)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 3: A4-A60 even/west gates (2024)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 4: B2-B20 even/west gates, C2-C22 even/west gates, 4R deice pad (2025)
- McNamara Terminal Apron Rehab / Replacement Phase 5: A43-A75 odd/east gates (inner alley) (2027)
- Runway 9R/27L mill & overlay (2024)
- Taxiway K reconstruction (2024-2025)
- 3L deice pad reconstruction & expansion (2026)

NORTH TERMINAL:
- North Terminal Refresh ($30M) - (2023-2025)

MCNAMARA TERMINAL:
- Jetbridge replacement ($30M) (2023-2027)
- Bathroom Renovations ($12M) (2023-2025)
- Tunnel Refurbishment ($3M) (2024)
- Ramp Information Display System (RIDS) Replacement ($1.3M) (2023)
- Baggage Handling System & Claims Rehabilitation ($22.5M) (2023-2026)
- Moving walkway & escalator rehabilitation ($20M) (2023-2027)
- Delta Ground Service Equipment (GSE) electrifcation ($28.8M) (2023-2025)


Good to see the jetbridge air is being fixed since it never works half the time XD. But honestly, these projects seem good but as expected since concrete and asphalt, unfortunately, don't last forever.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:57 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Not cynical, just a reality. At Midfield, Andiamos' sales are strongest during periods of heavy business travel, whereas McDonalds are strongest during periods of heavy leisure travel. Alas, there aren't enough expense accounts to be charged to to support such dining program at North. That said, I think you're being overly harsh -- North had a pretty solid line-up that included McDonalds, Coffee Beanery, Caribu Coffee (Starbucks was an HMS Host exclusive, although now it's being licensed to non-HMS Host managed facilities), Chammps, Earl of Sandwhich, HockeyTown Cafe, Ruby Tuesday, Friday's, a really good French-sounding bakery/pastry, and more. Some of those concepts have aged out - Chammps and HockeyTown Cafe were extremely popular concepts at one point.



Perhaps I'm being harsh. I haven't been in several years and maybe it deserves another visit. Nonetheless, I hope expanded air service and growth of premium demand will call for enhancements in the future.

One last observation: the lineup of restaurants you cited sounds exactly like the lineup on some depressing suburban Mile road in the banal sprawl wastelands of metro Detroit. Maybe it's just the right mix after all! ;)
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:16 am

reasonable wrote:
Perhaps I'm being harsh. I haven't been in several years and maybe it deserves another visit. Nonetheless, I hope expanded air service and growth of premium demand will call for enhancements in the future.

One last observation: the lineup of restaurants you cited sounds exactly like the lineup on some depressing suburban Mile road in the banal sprawl wastelands of metro Detroit. Maybe it's just the right mix after all! ;)


...it's also the same core restaurants you'd find in pretty much any town during the mid-2000s. It's only been in the past 15 years, as Millennials have aged, that fast casual concepts, premium pizza, gourmet burgers, farm-to-table, etc. have become mainstream, so it's not surprising these concepts were underrepresented until now (the North's original leases were signed in the mid-2000s).

That said, if I'm going to splurge on a meal that I'm paying for... it's not going to be at an airport, which will always deliver a subpar experience.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:28 am

Seat1F wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
On the chatter about Evans, for me the biggest disappointment isn't the name but that Evans is a cheap facility. Yes, it's highly functional and unoffensive, but there's no value added for airlines flying into the Evans. No interesting lounges or even room for lounges (seriously, WCAA?). No amenities like leafy outdoor spaces, gate holds are banal, food is unsophisticated, no shopping, no other facilities that differentiate Evans from any other terminal at any other airport. It just speaks to the broader lack of sophistication in the Detroit market and at American airports overall.
I don't hate it

That's a completely misplaced criticism. The North/Evans terminal is going to be (almost exclusively) O&D. People aren't there to shop. They're not killing hours between flights. The restaurants are what the market supports.


I don't think its completely misplaced criticism. It is a cheap facility. Everything about it screams "cheap". I do however agree with you that the shopping and food options are what they are.


Try concourses C&D at Dulles and then tell me that the facility screams "cheap". It may not be up to the standards of McNamara, but it's far better than many of the dated terminals you can still find in use around the country. It's also night-and-day better than the Smith/Berry facilities that it replaced.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:22 am

"Personally" I agree up thread that recently posters in other markets contribute to add perspective on DTW as a whole.

I live in NOVA, so IAD/DCA are my airports. But my parents were NWA employees out of DCA in my younger days. 09/2011 shut DCA down and both my parents bid for DTW to be as close to home as possible... 1 hour hop Non-Reving back to DCA when they could. Mom came home 2 months later but my dad was stuck for 3 years in Detriot.

As a kid, I remember the old Terminal and remember how packed the summer season was there. Couldn't ever get food cause the lines were so long in the narrow concourse structure... Even as a kid, I was in DTW like at least 3 times a year. As I got older, we had so many family and friends prior too, I was in DTW like 5-6 times a year (weekend trips to hang and part in the burbs!

Now in my mid 40's, as an adult outside of aviation... I'm a Delta flyer, then United...

But when I fly, my personal options are as follows:

1
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:23 am

1
 
UppinhereP
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:28 am

1 - DTW
2 - MSP
3 - ATL

All my options are based on Schedule, then Price, then MQD...

All in all, I love the McN and connecting there... I'll walk the terminal between connections cause I saw it being built and then stepped foot in there...

Any update on the roads there? Will be in town Memorial Day weekend for my cousins wedding... Gotta rent a car and drive to Motor City Casino... lol
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:32 am

UppinhereP wrote:
"Personally" I agree up thread that recently posters in other markets contribute to add perspective on DTW as a whole.

I live in NOVA, so IAD/DCA are my airports. But my parents were NWA employees out of DCA in my younger days. 09/2011 shut DCA down and both my parents bid for DTW to be as close to home as possible... 1 hour hop Non-Reving back to DCA when they could. Mom came home 2 months later but my dad was stuck for 3 years in Detriot.

As a kid, I remember the old Terminal and remember how packed the summer season was there. Couldn't ever get food cause the lines were so long in the narrow concourse structure... Even as a kid, I was in DTW like at least 3 times a year. As I got older, we had so many family and friends prior too, I was in DTW like 5-6 times a year (weekend trips to hang and part in the burbs!

Now in my mid 40's, as an adult outside of aviation... I'm a Delta flyer, then United...

But when I fly, my personal options are as follows:

1


***Edit - 09/2001***
 
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dreamer1926
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:01 am

UppinhereP wrote:
1 - DTW
2 - MSP
3 - ATL

All my options are based on Schedule, then Price, then MQD...

All in all, I love the McN and connecting there... I'll walk the terminal between connections cause I saw it being built and then stepped foot in there...

Any update on the roads there? Will be in town Memorial Day weekend for my cousins wedding... Gotta rent a car and drive to Motor City Casino... lol


Depends on which roads you take. The usual potholes are defiantly there in some areas but besides that I haven't seen any road construction around the airport. There is however some construction on I-94 East and West bound for some bridge construction in which one or two lanes are closed so I'd give some extra time if you are possibly traveling on I-94.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:47 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here's the thing with the North Terminal.....when 50% of your departing passengers depart between 5-9am, what do they want at that time of the day?
Coffee....pastries, and breakfast sandwiches. Sure there are those that will down beers at 6am, but that the minority.

Over at DL in their terminal you have both O&D and connecting passengers that may have 1-3 hours between connections. You have people getting on/off connecting domestic & international flights. The operation there is much more balanced across the operating day, plus you have more of a captive audience.


Another point about the North terminal: As others have said, a high percentage of passengers at the North terminal are on LCCs. LCC passengers tend to be families traveling to Disney, or to visit Grandma in Clearwater Beach, not expense account travelers.

Families don't want to have leisurely meals at nice restaurants when they're at the airport. They want to get simple food so their kids will stop saying "Mommy, I'm hungry!!!!".

When MSP revised their concessions a few years ago, they took a survey of what people wanted. Although some people wanted nice restaurants where they could relax with a micro brew and a quality meal, families made it VERY clear that they wanted McDs at the airport, so they could get food their kids were familiar with.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:30 pm

If the JetBlue / Spirit merger goes through, I'm guessing that the quality of the North Terminal will improve over time as the passenger mix of JetBlue will change, and their schedules may be more spread out through the day, enticing the lounges / restaurants, and shops to provide more consistent offerings.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:00 pm

aeropix wrote:
If the JetBlue / Spirit merger goes through, I'm guessing that the quality of the North Terminal will improve over time as the passenger mix of JetBlue will change, and their schedules may be more spread out through the day, enticing the lounges / restaurants, and shops to provide more consistent offerings.


I really doubt it. B6 + NK still wouldn't be a major fraction of North Terminal's total passenger count. If by 'If the passenger mix changes' you really mean they give up the ULCC market, the passenger count will fall. There's no meaningful constraint on carrier growth at DTW. (Gate & runway utilization are fairly low.) B6 could double its flight count tomorrow. So could AA, for that matter.

In arguing that the mix of restaurants and retail is wrong, one is really arguing that the free market doesn't work in giving people what they are willing to pay for. HMSHost and Delaware North have pretty big airport concession businesses in the U.S. I might wish airports and concessionaires did some things differently but the market mechanism works pretty well.
 
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:07 pm

I doubt that the potential NK+B6 merger changes much of anything at DTW in the near-term. Its going to still be the DNA of NK's DTW operation. B6 is just a token prescence currently. It will be if the merged carrier decides to commit more resources to DTW in the future. Which it very well may, but the merger isn't a "game changer" for DTW, it would be whatever a stand-alone NK would be going anyways. B6 is no knight in shining amour for DTW.
Also, I think the name/branding change from NK to B6 is actually going to confuse people in this provincial market. NK actually has brand awareness here in DTW.
I think this might actually open the door to seeing G4 come into DTW, and also continue to bolster-up their FNT operation.

The NK+F9 merger actually I would have thought might have been a bit more intriguing for DTW, in the sense, a combined NK+F9 took on some of the F9's aggressive here-today, gone tomorrow, and/or less-than daily scheduling practices.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:28 pm

JetBlue wants the Spirit fleet https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/jetblues-bid-spirit-centers-adding-planes-fleet-83921513
I don't think that is good news from the standpoint of Spirit at DTW.
In my opinion, JetBlue has shown little interest in the DTW market.

But the White House seems to understand that we have anti-monopoly laws.
Nothing illegal about growing big. But when you do it by eliminating a competitor you might have some legal issues to contend with.
 
Seat1F
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:13 pm

umichman wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I don't hate it

That's a completely misplaced criticism. The North/Evans terminal is going to be (almost exclusively) O&D. People aren't there to shop. They're not killing hours between flights. The restaurants are what the market supports.


I don't think its completely misplaced criticism. It is a cheap facility. Everything about it screams "cheap". I do however agree with you that the shopping and food options are what they are.


Try concourses C&D at Dulles and then tell me that the facility screams "cheap". It may not be up to the standards of McNamara, but it's far better than many of the dated terminals you can still find in use around the country. It's also night-and-day better than the Smith/Berry facilities that it replaced.

I've been through Dulles C&D many times and I agree with you. I consider the UA concourse facilities at Dulles to be the worst hub operation facilities in the country. I also agree that the North Terminal was a vast improvement over it's predecessors at DTW. None of that detracts from the fact that it was built on the cheap and is not aging particularly well. It feels older and more worn than the McNamara.
 
Seat1F
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:28 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
United (Red Carpet) Club members have long had access to the LH lounge, and now Priority Pass can join them -- and it's a really, really good club.

UA Club members have access to the LH club, and the LH club is nicer than most UA clubs.


My experience with the LH lounge at DTW is admittedly all pre-COVID so I don't know if this has changed now...but the core issue was always if the lounge was actually open or not to be able to even use it. Pre-COVID, LH kept reducing the opening times of the lounge. So it was available for United Club members IF it was actually open for use. Has that changed? Is it now consistently open throughout the day?
 
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dreamer1926
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:57 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:14 pm

Seat1F wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
United (Red Carpet) Club members have long had access to the LH lounge, and now Priority Pass can join them -- and it's a really, really good club.

UA Club members have access to the LH club, and the LH club is nicer than most UA clubs.


My experience with the LH lounge at DTW is admittedly all pre-COVID so I don't know if this has changed now...but the core issue was always if the lounge was actually open or not to be able to even use it. Pre-COVID, LH kept reducing the opening times of the lounge. So it was available for United Club members IF it was actually open for use. Has that changed? Is it now consistently open throughout the day?


It's open 6am-7pm every day except for Sunday, although the hours seem to sometimes change. I've had a few people complain that it wasn't open on Sundays or at certain times in the morning, which is understandable if you are a star alliance gold card member or priority pass holder wanting to use it but can't.
 
Seat1F
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:51 pm

dreamer1926 wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
United (Red Carpet) Club members have long had access to the LH lounge, and now Priority Pass can join them -- and it's a really, really good club.

UA Club members have access to the LH club, and the LH club is nicer than most UA clubs.


My experience with the LH lounge at DTW is admittedly all pre-COVID so I don't know if this has changed now...but the core issue was always if the lounge was actually open or not to be able to even use it. Pre-COVID, LH kept reducing the opening times of the lounge. So it was available for United Club members IF it was actually open for use. Has that changed? Is it now consistently open throughout the day?


It's open 6am-7pm every day except for Sunday, although the hours seem to sometimes change. I've had a few people complain that it wasn't open on Sundays or at certain times in the morning, which is understandable if you are a star alliance gold card member or priority pass holder wanting to use it but can't.

Well that's a vast improvement from before. Thanks for the info!
 
umichman
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:28 pm

Seat1F wrote:
I've been through Dulles C&D many times and I agree with you. I consider the UA concourse facilities at Dulles to be the worst hub operation facilities in the country. I also agree that the North Terminal was a vast improvement over it's predecessors at DTW. None of that detracts from the fact that it was built on the cheap and is not aging particularly well. It feels older and more worn than the McNamara.


While I haven't been in North since Covid, there are some things in McNamara that I find to be in pretty sad shape. The fact that the water feature is still shutdown is pretty pathetic (is it broke or turned off due to Covid?). Also, the low-def, grainy jumbotron screens either need to be replaced or pulled down in my opinion.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:38 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
In arguing that the mix of restaurants and retail is wrong, one is really arguing that the free market doesn't work in giving people what they are willing to pay for. HMSHost and Delaware North have pretty big airport concession businesses in the U.S. I might wish airports and concessionaires did some things differently but the market mechanism works pretty well.


It really isn't a free market. HMSHost (and its predecessors) for decades enjoyed a no-bid contract at DTW that was blamed for the subpar selections at the LC Smith & Davey Terminals. You could never have enough Cinnabon's and Great American Bagels :). During Midfield's construction, NW tried to contract directly with local and national brands; they had an impressive roster lined-up, but since the arrangement wasn't common (few vendors had experience with airport locations, which has unique operations + NW was demanding street pricing), most pulled out leaving huge vacancies and few places to eat when the terminal opened. Still, the door managed to remain shut on HMSHost until relatively recently -- hard to ignore the brands they have exclusive rights to.

That said, the buildout of airport locations rivals that of traditional B&M locations, which is why it takes 10-15 years for brands to turnover. If you compare North's original roster to that of ATL & MSP in the mid-2000s, it was very competitive. TCBY was to MSP in the 2000s... what Cinnabon was to DTW in the 1990s. It was less than 10 years ago that ATL, MSP & Midfield received the new, modern mix of tenants.

Personally, I'm old school. I'd rather get a decent burger, fries and pop for less than $10 at Ruby Tuesday's... than pay $25 for the same thing at Five Guys. But the market has spoken, and all the Ruby Tuesdays in Metro Detroit shuttered whereas Five Guys continues to grow...
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