IceCream wrote:

ac190 wrote:

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

Looks like Air Canada (AC) is adding a 3rd daily flight on the Vancouver YVR - Fort St John YXJ route from August 1 2022, as currently YVR - YXJ is 2x daily.

AC has cut the YYC- YXJ 1x daily flights from July 31, after operating it for few months since May 1.

But Calgary YYC - Fort St John YXJ will still be operated by WestJet 2x daily which they have a stronghold on that route at YYC & 1 of the reasons why AC cut it.

I'm sure you have insider information on exactly why every Canadian airline makes a decision. Ever think that maybe the route is just a bad route and not worth operating?

Both AC and WJ have with a terrible load factor on that route. There are days with even 2 WJ flights the 1 AC flight has more passengers and then there are days when WJ does better. I can't even see a day within the next month that the 23:10 WJ departure has more than 50% load factor.

Huh, interesting. There must be a reason why WS has consistently operated double daily YYC-YXJ though.

No idea. But YYC-YXJ doesn’t really have good load factors for either airline.

The 23:10 departure I assume is there for connections although it looks like there isn’t a whole lot.

embraer175e2 wrote:

When will air canda be retiring its a319 fleet?

Current fleet plan that is public shows 3 mainline and 20 rouge A319s until end of 2023. At minimum the rouge fleet will be here to at least mid-decade.

chrisa330 wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

When will air canda be retiring its a319 fleet?

Current fleet plan that is public shows 3 mainline and 20 rouge A319s until end of 2023. At minimum the rouge fleet will be here to at least mid-decade.

How many mainline 319s were brought back into service (not counting the 3 Jetz birds) since their “permanent” retirement in 2020?

flyguy1 wrote:

burnsie28 wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

No they don’t. Certainly not now with China still essentially closed to foreigners.

Maybe pre-COVID, but even then, I have my doubts that statement was true.

Not even pre Covid:

For July 2022

YVR: 234 total flights to 10 destinations
LAX: 563 total flights to 11 destinations
SFO: 505 total flights to 9 destinations

For July 2019
YVR: 727 total flights to 17 destinations
LAX: 1260 total flights to 22 destinations
SFO: 1039 total flights to 15 destinations

Does this count DXB, India, South Pacific etc. ?

It includes countries only listed as "Asia" within GDS, South Pacific is not Asia, India often falls under "Indian Subcontinent" and DXB is considered Middle East in scheduling.

Heard recently from a friend of an AC employee that Rouge will be folded into mainline within the next year or so. Not too sure how true it is as it seems to be just rumour, but would somewhat make sense as AC seems unsure about their strategy for Rouge at the moment

1050flyer wrote:

Heard recently from a friend of an AC employee that Rouge will be folded into mainline within the next year or so. Not too sure how true it is as it seems to be just rumour, but would somewhat make sense as AC seems unsure about their strategy for Rouge at the moment

They’ve said publicly numerous times rouge is a key strategy right now for the leisure flights to the Caribbean/Mexico. Having said that I could see rogue doing that in the future, but not at this time. Stranger things have happened though

777luver wrote:

1050flyer wrote:

Heard recently from a friend of an AC employee that Rouge will be folded into mainline within the next year or so. Not too sure how true it is as it seems to be just rumour, but would somewhat make sense as AC seems unsure about their strategy for Rouge at the moment

They’ve said publicly numerous times rouge is a key strategy right now for the leisure flights to the Caribbean/Mexico. Having said that I could see rogue doing that in the future, but not at this time. Stranger things have happened though

Rouge was launched to better match product to demand on leisure routes at lower unit costs than mainline. Have things changed at the company (i.e. mainline costs down or Rouge costs up) to neutralize the rationale?

drgmobile wrote:

777luver wrote:

1050flyer wrote:

Heard recently from a friend of an AC employee that Rouge will be folded into mainline within the next year or so. Not too sure how true it is as it seems to be just rumour, but would somewhat make sense as AC seems unsure about their strategy for Rouge at the moment

They’ve said publicly numerous times rouge is a key strategy right now for the leisure flights to the Caribbean/Mexico. Having said that I could see rogue doing that in the future, but not at this time. Stranger things have happened though

Rouge was launched to better match product to demand on leisure routes at lower unit costs than mainline. Have things changed at the company (i.e. mainline costs down or Rouge costs up) to neutralize the rationale?

A number of things have changed since the inception of Rouge. Air Canada has densified the passenger cabins. The Boeing 777 went from 9 abreast to 10 abreast, 77W 349 seats to 400 seats, 77L 270 seats to 300 seats. Airbus 330 265 seats to 292 seats, Airbus 321 174 seats to 190 seats. The new Airbus 220 and Boeing 737Max have reduced galley and smaller lavatory spaces allowing for additional seats. The Air Canada 10 year cabin crew contract signed after the creation of Rouge also made changes to some items allowing for greater flexibility in operations and cost saving. Rouge cabin crew are paid the same expenses as mainline while on layover and are assigned the same standard of hotel accommodation. The starting wage at both entities are quite low, the difference being the mainline division tops out at a higher level at top scale. Rouge cabin crew have been transitioning to mainline keeping their seniority and getting a raise. So yes, things have changed quite a bit.

I see YYZ BZE is back for December. switch to mainline from rouge

YYZ-POS now been downgraded to seasonal it seems.WS also recently dropped the route.

BW600 wrote:

YYZ-POS now been downgraded to seasonal it seems.WS also recently dropped the route.

That leaves only Caribbean Airlines on the route at 4x/week? I would have thought YYZ-POS market could support a lot more frequencies than that?

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

Interesting, I just saw it in the report as well. Certainly came in under the radar. Would these be 777Fs? I don't think Boeing sells a *new* 777-300 freighter.

Beech

The report says two new 777 freighters with delivery in 2024. Those would be 77Fs.

Boeing has a UFO 2x 77F order from April. Good chance that’s AC especially since I think AC was negotiating over 767F ntus around same time.

ramprat320 wrote:

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

Surprising indeed!

The original 777 order had 2 77Fs, later converted to 2 additional 77Ls (12 77W, 4 77L, 2 77Fs).

I wonder how much of this order has to do with CargoJets 777 plans. With CargoJet being 80km away from YYZ, I could see that AC wanted to match their lift capability.

The new builds must be 77Fs, not converted LRs or ERs. I think all of the former DL 77Ls are spoken for, but AI is getting rid of their LRs. And if I recall correctly, the factory built 77F has a higher payload versus the converted frames.

Perhaps somewhat of a pipe dream, but the case for the 777X is getting stronger with this order. When, not anytime soon, the 777 fleet is up for renewal, the pax/cargo capacity requirements and the commonality with the MAX/787 fleet made the 777X the most realistic option.

KrisYYZ

krisyyz wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

Perhaps somewhat of a pipe dream, but the case for the 777X is getting stronger with this order. When, not anytime soon, the 777 fleet is up for renewal, the pax/cargo capacity requirements and the commonality with the MAX/787 fleet made the 777X the most realistic option.

KrisYYZ

This same logic was applied leading up to the MAX order to explain why a NEO order would be a no-brainer.

krisyyz wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

Surprising indeed!

The original 777 order had 2 77Fs, later converted to 2 additional 77Ls (12 77W, 4 77L, 2 77Fs).

I wonder how much of this order has to do with CargoJets 777 plans. With CargoJet being 80km away from YYZ, I could see that AC wanted to match their lift capability.

The new builds must be 77Fs, not converted LRs or ERs. I think all of the former DL 77Ls are spoken for, but AI is getting rid of their LRs. And if I recall correctly, the factory built 77F has a higher payload versus the converted frames.

Perhaps somewhat of a pipe dream, but the case for the 777X is getting stronger with this order. When, not anytime soon, the 777 fleet is up for renewal, the pax/cargo capacity requirements and the commonality with the MAX/787 fleet made the 777X the most realistic option.

KrisYYZ

Commonality between B777X/B78x with the MAX? Surprising indeed!
I agree with the rest of your summation and my expectation from how I read the release is B777F which is the factory build version of the B777-200LR.

Good point on response to CargoJet. CargoJet has made strong growth in the vacuum of the Canadian market. Isn't CargoJet also doing Canadian flying for Amazon?

yyztpa2 wrote:

Isn't CargoJet also doing Canadian flying for Amazon?

Yes, with 2 painted frames in the Prime livery. Daily YHM-YYC-YHM rotation and the other does YHM-YEG-YVR-YHM. I believe it was a 2-year contract so we'll see what these 2 planes do after. (C-GAZI and C-GAZF)

Just before the pandemic AC announced YYC-BOS. Any chance of that getting launched?

^AC mentioned they were looking into new routes on the investor conference call today, but they highlighted two new "west" routes - YVR-MIA and YEG-CUN. YYC was not mentioned on the call.

ramprat320 wrote:

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

The real question is whether AC's pilots have to take a 10% pay-cut for the opportunity to fly the 77F...

Where credit is owed, the Rousseau leadership team seems to be pushing ahead with some great initiatives at the airline. Some items of note being:

- Freighter fleet build up with 76F and 77F: hinting on the Q2 earnings call that the 77F will be mostly deployed to Asia. Hopefully they can leverage YVR and the connection opportunities to build a successful freight operation.

- The 321XLR order: likely could make YYZ and YUL North American strongholds for connecting secondary European destinations.

- AC making experimenting with untraditional routes like YUL-DEL, CAI; YVR-BKK, MIA; LHR-BOM: instead of funnelling everyone going eastbound through FRA or YYZ.

- Upcoming partnership with EK: in an exciting first, EK got more mention on an AC earnings call than LH. It sounds like AC is very excited to be going ahead with this partnership, noting that they are looking to 'grow DXB' hinting at the connecting opportunities beyond DXB. This could be a fantastic opportunity for both AC and EK to be a powerhouse between North America and MENA/South Asia.

- Upcoming JV with UA: I can't recall all the carve out markets, but it was noted on the Q2 call that they're going to better time schedules to prevent overlapping, which should hopefully give us consumers more varied options than some of the stacked options we currently have.

In the little over a year that we've had with Rousseau, he's put AC on a great track for long-term success. It seems to be a shift from Rovinescu who couldn't seem to figure out that AC had two additional hubs West of YYZ and who didn't think he was getting a deal unless someone else was being screwed in the process.

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:

Just before the pandemic AC announced YYC-BOS. Any chance of that getting launched?

Not this Summer 2022 as this summer season is almost over. Next summer 2023 (maybe),but it’s tough to tell what new routes AC have planned for Calgary YYC , as they trimmed down the number of flights at YYC past several years.

But currently this Summer in Western Canada only 2 routes to Boston BOS, as WestJet is flying YYC - BOS seasonally 3x weekly until September 6 & while Air Canada is flying Vancouver YVR- BOS 5-7 weekly flights until end of September.

YEGFlyer wrote:

^AC mentioned they were looking into new routes on the investor conference call today, but they highlighted two new "west" routes - YVR-MIA and YEG-CUN. YYC was not mentioned on the call.

Not surprising Calgary YYC wasn’t mentioned as Air Canada has trimmed down the number of flights at YYC last several years & haven’t added much/ anything New.

While WestJet, Lynx & Flair have added New flights/ routes for YYC.

Plus Air Canada hasn’t added much for Edmonton YEG in Alberta either too,except for San Francisco SFO & Cancun CUN. As YEG has had more New flights/routes added on Flair/Swoop lately.

Airlinerdude wrote:

- Upcoming JV with UA: I can't recall all the carve out markets, but it was noted on the Q2 call that they're going to better time schedules to prevent overlapping, which should hopefully give us consumers more varied options than some of the stacked options we currently have.

They also mentioned that most of the carve-out market restrictions are still in place. Here they are.

YYC-IAH/ORD/SFO
YUL-ORD/IAH/WAS
YOW-WAS/NYC
YYZ-CLE/DEN/IAH/SFO/WAS
YVR-SFO

In the little over a year that we've had with Rousseau, he's put AC on a great track for long-term success. It seems to be a shift from Rovinescu who couldn't seem to figure out that AC had two additional hubs West of YYZ and who didn't think he was getting a deal unless someone else was being screwed in the process.

I don’t think that last sentence is true. AC has added plenty of routes out of YVR during Rovinescu’s time. MEL, BNE, AKL, KIX, NGO, TPE, FRA, ZRH etc.

And AC has done nothing at YYC in the last ~10 years, and that continues to be the case, even with Rousseau.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

- Upcoming JV with UA: I can't recall all the carve out markets, but it was noted on the Q2 call that they're going to better time schedules to prevent overlapping, which should hopefully give us consumers more varied options than some of the stacked options we currently have.

They also mentioned that most of the carve-out market restrictions are still in place. Here they are.

YYC-IAH/ORD/SFO
YUL-ORD/IAH/WAS
YOW-WAS/NYC
YYZ-CLE/DEN/IAH/SFO/WAS
YVR-SFO

In the little over a year that we've had with Rousseau, he's put AC on a great track for long-term success. It seems to be a shift from Rovinescu who couldn't seem to figure out that AC had two additional hubs West of YYZ and who didn't think he was getting a deal unless someone else was being screwed in the process.

I don’t think that last sentence is true. AC has added plenty of routes out of YVR during Rovinescu’s time. MEL, BNE, AKL, KIX, NGO, TPE, FRA, ZRH etc.

And AC has done nothing at YYC in the last ~10 years, and that continues to be the case, even with Rousseau.

Thanks for this information.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a "carve-out market"? Thanks!

matt wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

- Upcoming JV with UA: I can't recall all the carve out markets, but it was noted on the Q2 call that they're going to better time schedules to prevent overlapping, which should hopefully give us consumers more varied options than some of the stacked options we currently have.

They also mentioned that most of the carve-out market restrictions are still in place. Here they are.

YYC-IAH/ORD/SFO
YUL-ORD/IAH/WAS
YOW-WAS/NYC
YYZ-CLE/DEN/IAH/SFO/WAS
YVR-SFO

In the little over a year that we've had with Rousseau, he's put AC on a great track for long-term success. It seems to be a shift from Rovinescu who couldn't seem to figure out that AC had two additional hubs West of YYZ and who didn't think he was getting a deal unless someone else was being screwed in the process.

I don’t think that last sentence is true. AC has added plenty of routes out of YVR during Rovinescu’s time. MEL, BNE, AKL, KIX, NGO, TPE, FRA, ZRH etc.

And AC has done nothing at YYC in the last ~10 years, and that continues to be the case, even with Rousseau.

Thanks for this information.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a "carve-out market"? Thanks!

Market pairs/routes where AC/UA can’t coordinate and share revenue to keep things competitive. Basically the JV doesn’t apply to those listed markets.

Airlinerdude wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

An interesting tidbit in today’s quarterly results - Air Canada is adding two NEW 777-300 Freighters to the fleet in 2024.

The real question is whether AC's pilots have to take a 10% pay-cut for the opportunity to fly the 77F...

Where credit is owed, the Rousseau leadership team seems to be pushing ahead with some great initiatives at the airline. Some items of note being:

- Freighter fleet build up with 76F and 77F: hinting on the Q2 earnings call that the 77F will be mostly deployed to Asia. Hopefully they can leverage YVR and the connection opportunities to build a successful freight operation.

- The 321XLR order: likely could make YYZ and YUL North American strongholds for connecting secondary European destinations.

- AC making experimenting with untraditional routes like YUL-DEL, CAI; YVR-BKK, MIA; LHR-BOM: instead of funnelling everyone going eastbound through FRA or YYZ.

- Upcoming partnership with EK: in an exciting first, EK got more mention on an AC earnings call than LH. It sounds like AC is very excited to be going ahead with this partnership, noting that they are looking to 'grow DXB' hinting at the connecting opportunities beyond DXB. This could be a fantastic opportunity for both AC and EK to be a powerhouse between North America and MENA/South Asia.

- Upcoming JV with UA: I can't recall all the carve out markets, but it was noted on the Q2 call that they're going to better time schedules to prevent overlapping, which should hopefully give us consumers more varied options than some of the stacked options we currently have.

In the little over a year that we've had with Rousseau, he's put AC on a great track for long-term success. It seems to be a shift from Rovinescu who couldn't seem to figure out that AC had two additional hubs West of YYZ and who didn't think he was getting a deal unless someone else was being screwed in the process.

It was an interesting call for sure.

- Little doubt the 77F will be for Asia. That's certainly one of the problems with a 767F cargo fleet - it will struggle on the really long routes with decent loads. Since Boeing needs to keep the 777 line going with the delays in the 777X certification, I am sure they were given a pretty good price. AC was opportunistic with the 767F white tails, so wouldn't be surprised if the 77F deal was also a reasonable one.

- The XLR is a game changer aircraft for sure. With the JV with United, and the A++ agreement, YYZ and YUL will really be fortress hubs (not that aren't already). One stop sixth freedom flight J business should really grow. XLR's to places like BER, WAW, ARN, OSL, ZAG, NCE, MRS, OPO, etc., etc, etc. It gives AC an aircraft similar to what the 757 was to the US carriers when they were first started on secondary European routes.

- Still hold out hope for YYZ-CPT.

- The EK partnership is very interesting. Hopefully it's good for frequent flyers with the ability to redeem Aeroplan miles on EK (although that would seem less likely for F and EK's J is not great). Wouldn't be surprised to see YUL-DXB and even YVR-DXB launched.

Something needs to be done about Pearson and to a lesser degree Trudeau. For sure some of it is CATSA and a lack of employees, but this summer is a total mess and it will hit AC's bottom line. Shareholder return has been poor last few years (due to COVID and the now the operational disaster that is 2022) and the last quarter wasn't exactly a home run. Average share price target is $26.50 - hopefully Rousseau gets them there.

Somethings sure does need to done at Pearson. It is absolutely inadequate for what AC currently does internationally. In the evening hours, you can barely move on the international pier. I now fly through YUL to avoid YYZ. I fully appreciate the opportunity the A321XLR presents for AC. Presumably, with international J class cabins, they will almost fly mostly to/from YYZ and YUL on international routes. How will it be possible to accommodate this amount of international growth out of YYZ? Is anything currently in the works to build out AC's terminal. I know there are plans for another pier but is it yet started? Until they sort it out, it seems the biggest opportunity for A321XLRs is YUL. What am I missing here? What will AC do about their biggest hub?

YYZ should do an expansion to T1 similar to expansions at ORD, DEN, MCO, etc.

quote="idjim319"]Somethings sure does need to done at Pearson. It is absolutely inadequate for what AC currently does internationally. In the evening hours, you can barely move on the international pier. I now fly through YUL to avoid YYZ. I fully appreciate the opportunity the A321XLR presents for AC. Presumably, with international J class cabins, they will almost fly mostly to/from YYZ and YUL on international routes. How will it be possible to accommodate this amount of international growth out of YYZ? Is anything currently in the works to build out AC's terminal. I know there are plans for another pier but is it yet started? Until they sort it out, it seems the biggest opportunity for A321XLRs is YUL. What am I missing here? What will AC do about their biggest hub?[/quote]

idjim319 wrote:

Somethings sure does need to done at Pearson. It is absolutely inadequate for what AC currently does internationally. In the evening hours, you can barely move on the international pier. I now fly through YUL to avoid YYZ. I fully appreciate the opportunity the A321XLR presents for AC. Presumably, with international J class cabins, they will almost fly mostly to/from YYZ and YUL on international routes. How will it be possible to accommodate this amount of international growth out of YYZ? Is anything currently in the works to build out AC's terminal. I know there are plans for another pier but is it yet started? Until they sort it out, it seems the biggest opportunity for A321XLRs is YUL. What am I missing here? What will AC do about their biggest hub?

The XLR actually presents a really interesting opportunity to look at flights from other centres to offload a little bit of what happens at YYZ. I would expect that YOW and YHZ to LHR will both be flown on XLR's. Some traffic could be routed through those centres, such as sixth freedom traffic from the NE. This is helped by the United JV as there is more opportunity to connect secondary centres in the US to YOW and YHZ. I am sure those airports would welcome more direct connections to the US.

But I agree, it will remain a considerable challenge. Neither YYZ or YUL are big enough, especially with AC's possible growth plans. YYZ is simply bursting - there are already a ton of flights going to Europe and North Africa and that is likely not going to change. Unlike YVR, where the Asia and Oceania banks leave at different times from the Europe flights, the bulk of intercontinental flights from YYZ/YUL leave across the evening from 18:00 to 23:00. It's just a lot of flights. I expect AC is aware of this and will try to work with airport planners as much as possible to manage this. The only other option is what has happened this summer - flight cancellations and unhappy passengers - to try and decompress the mayhem that is Pearson and Trudeau.

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

Is there an advantage for AC to use the XLR YHZ-LHR as opposed to the MAX 8? Do they need the added capacity?

dr1980 wrote:

Is there an advantage for AC to use the XLR YHZ-LHR as opposed to the MAX 8? Do they need the added capacity?

It would depend on what people are prepared to pay out of YHZ - the front of the Max is sold as PY on YHZ-LHR whereas the XLR will be sold as J. They are also using the YYZ day-tripper slot for YHZ at the moment and YHZ will likely need to shift back to a redeye.

It will also depend on narrow body demand once the XLR's are in the fleet. If you look at the fleet plan, and if there are no further orders or retirements (other than planned), AC will have 110 aircraft with lie flat J (24 777's/40 787's/16 A330's/30 XLR's) and 108 narrow bodies not including Rouge (15 A321's/8 A320's/40 Maxes/45 A220's). They are going to have to manage the fleet to account for the almost 1:1 ratio of domestic J/PY to lie flat J.

This is what yield management is for.

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

Like with SYD? Is there demand outside of a foreign hub/North America to justify more than one daily service?

Thenoflyzone wrote:

And AC has done nothing at YYC in the last ~10 years, and that continues to be the case, even with Rousseau.

Just curious, but when did NRT come along to YYC?

Fuling wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

Like with SYD? Is there demand outside of a foreign hub/North America to justify more than one daily service?

Thenoflyzone wrote:

And AC has done nothing at YYC in the last ~10 years, and that continues to be the case, even with Rousseau.

Just curious, but when did NRT come along to YYC?

YVR - SYD is often twice daily.

YYC-NRT started in the Canadian Airlines days. Using a DC-10, it flew YYC-YEG-NRT, then YYC-NRT, then YYZ-YYC-NRT which continued into and after the merger with Air Canada using a 767. It stopped during Covid.

Fuling wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

Like with SYD? Is there demand outside of a foreign hub/North America to justify more than one daily service?

I'm thinking of flights from non hubs. I know mostly YEG routes because that's that what I follow so e.g. YEG-SFO, YEG-YZF. Out of YYC there are similar examples where it doesn't seem to matter what, Air Canada will run 1 daily flight whereas competitors will be way more flexible and sometimes go double daily or even cut back to 3x weekly to reflect demand (including US and euro network carriers and LCCs). I think this applies to TB routes, secondary Europe, and non hub to non hub flights in particular. Just seems AC targets that once daily and then lets demand spill over elsewhere.

EdmFlyBoi wrote:

XLR's to places like BER, WAW, ARN, OSL, ZAG, NCE, MRS, OPO, etc.

Did Airbus confirm XLR can make it fully loaded in typical AC two cabin layout westbound against stong winter jetstream from ZAG to YYZ with reserve? Would like to see the source where Airbus confirms it.

Place like WAW would have competition in the form of LOT Polish 789 with more passengers, three cabins and more cargo capacity. How does XLR stack against 789 on YYZ-WAW route, at least on paper?

CrewBunk wrote:

Fuling wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

Like with SYD? Is there demand outside of a foreign hub/North America to justify more than one daily service?


YVRSYD is selling 10x weekly for 01DEC22-21JAN23 period...

346fetish wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Fuling wrote:

Like with SYD? Is there demand outside of a foreign hub/North America to justify more than one daily service?

YVRSYD is selling 10x weekly for 01DEC22-21JAN23 period...

fly2moon wrote:

EdmFlyBoi wrote:

XLR's to places like BER, WAW, ARN, OSL, ZAG, NCE, MRS, OPO, etc.

Did Airbus confirm XLR can make it fully loaded in typical AC two cabin layout westbound against stong winter jetstream from ZAG to YYZ with reserve? Would like to see the source where Airbus confirms it.

Place like WAW would have competition in the form of LOT Polish 789 with more passengers, three cabins and more cargo capacity. How does XLR stack against 789 on YYZ-WAW route, at least on paper?

YYZ-ZAG is just over 3800 nautical miles. The quoted range for the XLR with 180 to 220 passengers is 4700 nautical miles, so it is within the range, at least on paper. Winter might be an issue but ZAG is likely a summer seasonal route so that is less of a concern.

AC hasn't really flow WAW with a 787 with any degree of consistency, and it hasn't been served since prior to COVID. It was largely a Rouge route, and did go to mainline in the summer of 2018. I flew it that summer and it was a mainline 767 that was falling apart inside. I don't think that LOT flying the route with a 787 would be an issue. AC could likely make the route work in the summer with the right aircraft (ie. an XLR).

CrewBunk wrote:

It stopped during Covid.

YYC-NRT stopped in late October 2019 for the season and wasn't planned to come back for 2020 anyway, so that stoppage was not pandemic-induced.

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

As far as international flying is concerned, AC actually seems to prefer to connect another one of its hubs to a city in question over offering more than one daily flight. If we take the example of Lisbon, AC flying YYZ-LIS and then introducing YUL-LIS means that they have more direct seats to sell on the YYZ flight, capture the premium O&D on YUL-LIS that prefers a non-stop, and can offer more connections from LIS through both YUL and YYZ. We've seen this happen to cities like DUB, BOG, GRU, NRT, PVG, and TLV.

I suspect you'll see the A321XLRs used to offer a flight to YUL from many European destinations that currently have a single-daily wide-body to YYZ such as AMS and CPH. Many current seasonal cities are also likely to stay year-round, switching to the XLR for the winter season.

Acey wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

It stopped during Covid.

YYC-NRT stopped in late October 2019 for the season and wasn't planned to come back for 2020 anyway, so that stoppage was not pandemic-induced.

It was planned to be restarted for the Summer season 2020, using 767-300s. (I’m looking at the pilot pairings right now).

The restart, and in fact the 767-300 mainline passenger fleet, was cancelled (and retired) due to Covid.

hollywoodcory wrote:

Acey wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

It stopped during Covid.

YYC-NRT stopped in late October 2019 for the season and wasn't planned to come back for 2020 anyway, so that stoppage was not pandemic-induced.

It was 100% scheduled in 2020, I remember its resumption being delayed a few times, and then removed. Was even briefly scheduled on a 788 in S21.

Any word it will come back or is this route essentially dead?

dr1980 wrote:

Is there an advantage for AC to use the XLR YHZ-LHR as opposed to the MAX 8? Do they need the added capacity?

Yield perhaps higher selling lie flat beds in the XLR J cabin vs the upright seats in the Max 8?

Thomaas wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

Anyone else notice that Air Canada will tend to "sit" on a route and it won't progress past once daily (unless it fits into some kind of hub policy or strategy they have)? This seems to be one of their approaches to driving yield.

As far as international flying is concerned, AC actually seems to prefer to connect another one of its hubs to a city in question over offering more than one daily flight. If we take the example of Lisbon, AC flying YYZ-LIS and then introducing YUL-LIS means that they have more direct seats to sell on the YYZ flight, capture the premium O&D on YUL-LIS that prefers a non-stop, and can offer more connections from LIS through both YUL and YYZ. We've seen this happen to cities like DUB, BOG, GRU, NRT, PVG, and TLV.

...

Agree
And they tend to stay 1x daily at most when this happens.

Long haul I'm doubtful demand exceeds 1x daily on many of these routes. But transborder or short haul I think it can, but AC won't tend to expand the route unless it is to or from a hub or part of some kind of strategy they are implementing, so it seems to me.

yzfElite wrote:

Yield perhaps higher selling lie flat beds in the XLR J cabin vs the upright seats in the Max 8?

That could be, though I seem to recall that J class was dreadfully under utilized when it was a 763 route, though of course we’d be talking fewer (and better) seats I assume with an XLR.

ddp wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Acey wrote:

YYC-NRT stopped in late October 2019 for the season and wasn't planned to come back for 2020 anyway, so that stoppage was not pandemic-induced.

It was 100% scheduled in 2020, I remember its resumption being delayed a few times, and then removed. Was even briefly scheduled on a 788 in S21.

Any word it will come back or is this route essentially dead?

Doubt it comes back next year either but it's too early to say whether or not it's permanently dead.

Acey wrote:

ddp wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

It was 100% scheduled in 2020, I remember its resumption being delayed a few times, and then removed. Was even briefly scheduled on a 788 in S21.

Any word it will come back or is this route essentially dead?

Doubt it comes back next year either but it's too early to say whether or not it's permanently dead.

Currently AC "replace" the route with YYZ-NRT this winter by using the AC9/10 number.