SAT-XNA-MSY (and vice versa) is now available as a BreezeThru.

WaywardMemphian wrote:

Bluegrass60 wrote:

Someone noted that Thru Flights have appeared on the MX schedule. That is very interesting. From SDF/CMH/OKC/TUL/SAT/XNA to the West Coast is 3-4 hours....that number of hours mentioned often by Breeze in conjunction with statements about longer routes. Add the Thru flight fact....and could very readily see East Coast stations (BDL, PVD, ISP, ORF, RIC) thru to interior cities like SDF/CMH etc then on to West Coast destinations like SFO, SEA, SAN etc. There could be a mix of thru and nonstop fares with various flavors of fares that would make the Thru Flight option appealing...(remember the PI Hopscotch fare options). Also allows those flights to be more profitable as they mature

TPA-XNA-SEA is a perfect set up

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=Tpa-sea%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

But the TPA-XNA flight times all appear to be out and backs from TPA at this time.

That said, MEM would make a good spot for several "breezethrus" from the east/southeast tothe west in the future for both A223s and the EJets
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=Pit-sat%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

"Like "Breezethru's"....if they ever do connections...."Connections are a Breeze"! I would think MEM is on the list to expand. Similar sized market to SDF and actually a bit more isolated as nearest major airport is BNA (SDF is surrounded by IND, CVG, LEX and BNA) (fun fact...BNA is actually closer to SDF than it is to MEM)

SunsetLimited wrote:

SAT-XNA-MSY (and vice versa) is now available as a BreezeThru.

Nice find. ....and they are called Breeze Thru's Wonder if there are others? This is the first variation from their stated nonstop objectives.

NolaMD88fan wrote:

Guessing MSY is underperforming expectations given no A220 is being based there and CAK is ending in May.

Hurricane Ida recovery has been slow. And there haven't been any festivals to speak of. Mardi Gras is next month and that will start off festival season so we'll see.

Bluegrass60 wrote:

SunsetLimited wrote:

SAT-XNA-MSY (and vice versa) is now available as a BreezeThru.

Nice find. ....and they are called Breeze Thru's Wonder if there are others? This is the first variation from their stated nonstop objectives.

It looks like CHS-TPA-OKC is bookable. Also seems to be a few one-off, nonstop ORF/BDL/ISP/PVD-SDF flights in early May

So many route changes for Breeze in May! Is it possible that Breeze could reach 1 million passengers this year? In their first seven months Breeze carried 330K so it's possible with the new A223 and Ejets coming to the fleet in the incoming months.

looks like PVD to SDF is available for the Derby may5 and may 8

Possibly answering my earlier question about if OKC or CMH is the official inaugural A220 flight... OKC is nearly sold out on the May 4th outbound in Nicest, and fares are much higher than normal, while CMH that morning only has 2 seats sold. Interestingly, the return OKC-TPA flight that day is mostly empty.

Most of the majors are struggling to fill direct operational positions even though they have significantly better pay and benefits than Breeze. Pilots included. If Breeze doesn’t improve compensation, they will struggle to retain qualified and quality staff for their ambitious plans. Even Avelo significantly increased pilot pay today.

I don’t think being a startup during a pandemic with high fuel costs, high inflation, and a very limited labor pool is a good idea. Unless Breeze’s investors wish to keep granting cash infusions and keep losing money like Virgin America’s investors did.

airplaneboy wrote:

Most of the majors are struggling to fill direct operational positions even though they have significantly better pay and benefits than Breeze. Pilots included. If Breeze doesn’t improve compensation, they will struggle to retain qualified and quality staff for their ambitious plans. Even Avelo significantly increased pilot pay today.

I don’t think being a startup during a pandemic with high fuel costs, high inflation, and a very limited labor pool is a good idea. Unless Breeze’s investors wish to keep granting cash infusions and keep losing money like Virgin America’s investors did.

The higher fuel costs get, the bigger the advantage of an A220 over an A320CEO (bulk of the G4/NK/F9 fleets) and just about every other narrowbody in the any other airline's fleet becomes.

They've also got the advantage of a much more efficient backend, lack of dead weight, and no giant loans that were needed to weather the pandemic.

Also, it very much feels like the majority of the country is either ready to, or about to be ready to, get out and move on with their lives, so the pandemic part shouldn't have a major negative impact this summer - and if it does, I would think it would favor nonstop flights on spacious aircraft.

luv2cattlecall wrote:

airplaneboy wrote:

Most of the majors are struggling to fill direct operational positions even though they have significantly better pay and benefits than Breeze. Pilots included. If Breeze doesn’t improve compensation, they will struggle to retain qualified and quality staff for their ambitious plans. Even Avelo significantly increased pilot pay today.

I don’t think being a startup during a pandemic with high fuel costs, high inflation, and a very limited labor pool is a good idea. Unless Breeze’s investors wish to keep granting cash infusions and keep losing money like Virgin America’s investors did.

The higher fuel costs get, the bigger the advantage of an A220 over an A320CEO (bulk of the G4/NK/F9 fleets) and just about every other narrowbody in the any other airline's fleet becomes.

They've also got the advantage of a much more efficient backend, lack of dead weight, and no giant loans that were needed to weather the pandemic.

Also, it very much feels like the majority of the country is either ready to, or about to be ready to, get out and move on with their lives, so the pandemic part shouldn't have a major negative impact this summer - and if it does, I would think it would favor nonstop flights on spacious aircraft.

It is worth discussing that Breeze will have a harder time hiring than the top six US airlines. They are a risk for employment.

However, they found some solutions:
Breeze, for example, wants to hire older pilots who retired from the airline industry amid the pandemic, even if they only have a few years before reaching retirement age.

Breeze raised pilot pay to help with that issue. Is it enough? I do not know.
https://news.yahoo.com/us-airlines-comb ... 03647.html

When JetBlue started up, they did the same strategy of hiring pilots with only a few years left. In my opinion it worked. Later pilots being hiring like knowing the initial pilot pool is so senior they have easy upgrades. It also gives customers confidence, at least for myself, seeing some grey in the cockpit.

Being a startup with recent investment, no legacy over-staffing issues, an app allowing flexibility that is actually a decent app (I still must use a web browser for family travel at other airlines unless it is the simplest of trips), and good revenue potential.

The A220 changes the game for Breeze. It will require higher utilization to bring down unit costs as Allegian will use the MAX, but the small size allows easy expansion.
I believe the debt of the majors will inhibit their near term expansion. It will be the nimble that thrive.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

It is worth discussing that Breeze will have a harder time hiring than the top six US airlines. They are a risk for employment.

However, they found some solutions:
Breeze, for example, wants to hire older pilots who retired from the airline industry amid the pandemic, even if they only have a few years before reaching retirement age.

Lightsaber

they also have competition with that strategy from northern pacific

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

Cardude2 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

It is worth discussing that Breeze will have a harder time hiring than the top six US airlines. They are a risk for employment.

However, they found some solutions:
Breeze, for example, wants to hire older pilots who retired from the airline industry amid the pandemic, even if they only have a few years before reaching retirement age.

Lightsaber

they also have competition with that strategy from northern pacific

Good for pilots. A new airline based in Alaska doing an icelandair strategy is worth its own thread:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... uxbndlbing

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... NewsSearch


Breeze is countering:
In a bid to retain its pilots, the airline also began to increase the pay of individual Embraer pilots. For each A220 pilot that the airline hires, an Embraer pilot will begin to receive A220 pay, starting at the top of the seniority list and moving on down. This is being done to help keep Embraer pilots happy with their current jet as the larger, more desirable A220 comes online at the airline.

Now that is a way to make the 3-year lock on the E-jets more bearable. Obviously, these pilots will move onto the A220 eventually. This will keep the early hire pilots happier at Breeze.

Per Wikipedia Breeze currently has 13 e-jets:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeze_Airways

Just one leasing company's delivery schedule implies by YE 2023, all current E-jet pilots will be on A220 rates.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Good for pilots. A new airline based in Alaska doing an icelandair strategy is worth its own thread:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... uxbndlbing

Lightsaber

well then here you go viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1462257&p=23137927&hilit=Northern+Pacific#p23137927

MavyWavyATR wrote:

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

BUF is a likely eventual candidate with their network
Chicago is tough, I think you'd see MKE first... GYY never
Portland is pretty well serviced at this moment, or perhaps they do PSM instead?
BED is a non starter for jet commercial service
I could see ECP and JAX as Florida additions, ECP being more places like XNA SDF and CMH and JAX being good for the navy connection to CHS ORF and PVD, with BDL a good candidate as well

Other cities that could work... MEM, GSP, SAV,

RL757PVD wrote:

MavyWavyATR wrote:

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

BUF is a likely eventual candidate with their network
Chicago is tough, I think you'd see MKE first... GYY never
Portland is pretty well serviced at this moment, or perhaps they do PSM instead?
BED is a non starter for jet commercial service
I could see ECP and JAX as Florida additions, ECP being more places like XNA SDF and CMH and JAX being good for the navy connection to CHS ORF and PVD, with BDL a good candidate as well

Other cities that could work... MEM, GSP, SAV,

Gulf Shores , Gulf Shores Gulf Shores for XNA.

Let's look at it this way, G4 is flying XNA/VPS 6 days a week over the summer. At least Half of those are driving west in a rental to Orange Beach and Gulf Shores

lightsaber wrote:

Cardude2 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

It is worth discussing that Breeze will have a harder time hiring than the top six US airlines. They are a risk for employment.

However, they found some solutions:
Breeze, for example, wants to hire older pilots who retired from the airline industry amid the pandemic, even if they only have a few years before reaching retirement age.

Lightsaber

they also have competition with that strategy from northern pacific

Good for pilots. A new airline based in Alaska doing an icelandair strategy is worth its own thread:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... uxbndlbing

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... NewsSearch


Breeze is countering:
In a bid to retain its pilots, the airline also began to increase the pay of individual Embraer pilots. For each A220 pilot that the airline hires, an Embraer pilot will begin to receive A220 pay, starting at the top of the seniority list and moving on down. This is being done to help keep Embraer pilots happy with their current jet as the larger, more desirable A220 comes online at the airline.

Now that is a way to make the 3-year lock on the E-jets more bearable. Obviously, these pilots will move onto the A220 eventually. This will keep the early hire pilots happier at Breeze.

Per Wikipedia Breeze currently has 13 e-jets:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeze_Airways

Just one leasing company's delivery schedule implies by YE 2023, all current E-jet pilots will be on A220 rates.

Lightsaber

Breeze's A220 pay is still WELL below market average rates for the E190/195 pay at B6/DL/AA/UA, let alone the A220 market average for those carriers. Until they raise their pay to be inline with the rest of the industry along with a serious overhaul of work rules, Breeze will continue to lose pilots. Over 30% of the initial pilot group who started the airline has left the company already but nobody wants to talk about that...

flightsimer wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Cardude2 wrote:

they also have competition with that strategy from northern pacific

Good for pilots. A new airline based in Alaska doing an icelandair strategy is worth its own thread:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... uxbndlbing

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... NewsSearch


Breeze is countering:
In a bid to retain its pilots, the airline also began to increase the pay of individual Embraer pilots. For each A220 pilot that the airline hires, an Embraer pilot will begin to receive A220 pay, starting at the top of the seniority list and moving on down. This is being done to help keep Embraer pilots happy with their current jet as the larger, more desirable A220 comes online at the airline.

Now that is a way to make the 3-year lock on the E-jets more bearable. Obviously, these pilots will move onto the A220 eventually. This will keep the early hire pilots happier at Breeze.

Per Wikipedia Breeze currently has 13 e-jets:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeze_Airways

Just one leasing company's delivery schedule implies by YE 2023, all current E-jet pilots will be on A220 rates.

Lightsaber

Breeze's A220 pay is still WELL below market average rates for the E190/195 pay at B6/DL/AA/UA, let alone the A220 market average for those carriers. Until they raise their pay to be inline with the rest of the industry along with a serious overhaul of work rules, Breeze will continue to lose pilots. Over 30% of the initial pilot group who started the airline has left the company already but nobody wants to talk about that...

Do you have a source, excluding competing sites on the 30% turnover? Considering they only started six months ago, they would in my opinion already be out of business if that number was true.
https://apex.aero/articles/video-breeze ... st-flight/

From what I see from public sources, Breeze has bought up A220 pay to B6 E190 pay levels. So low, but not that level of turnover low.

I'm not saying all is great. Considering many early pilots had recall privileges at the regionals they left, I would expect higher turnover.

The reality is breeze is competing with regional airlines for ejet pilots. Compared to the regionals, Breeze pays well. It will be a better career path to go to a major, but Breeze is a better option than a regional airline.

Lightsaber

Does anyone know the pay for A&P mechanics at Breeze?

Bluegrass60 wrote:

Someone noted that Thru Flights have appeared on the MX schedule. That is very interesting. From SDF/CMH/OKC/TUL/SAT/XNA to the West Coast is 3-4 hours....that number of hours mentioned often by Breeze in conjunction with statements about longer routes. Add the Thru flight fact....and could very readily see East Coast stations (BDL, PVD, ISP, ORF, RIC) thru to interior cities like SDF/CMH etc then on to West Coast destinations like SFO, SEA, SAN etc. There could be a mix of thru and nonstop fares with various flavors of fares that would make the Thru Flight option appealing...(remember the PI Hopscotch fare options). Also allows those flights to be more profitable as they mature

I'm shocked this didn't happen earlier. This was an early WN strategy to help fill flights. I'm not saying the yield will be great, but it will enhance yield and more importantly "seed" new routes that can be served P2P at a later date.

Lightsaber

flightsimer wrote:

Breeze's A220 pay is still WELL below market average rates for the E190/195 pay at B6/DL/AA/UA...

That assertion is kind of empty, given that only 1 of the 4 carriers operates E190/195, and only 2 of 4 operate A220s.

Thinking Breeze is going to pay DL/AA/UA/WN/FedEx money is foolish. Alaska pilots (a legacy carrier, and habitually well-performing financially) went to arbitration to get that - and came up short. Emphasis mine.

“While the arbitrators’ decision does include what, under most circumstances, would be considered significant raises, it still leaves the combined pilot group well behind our peers at other successful airlines," said Capt. Chris Notaro, who chairs the combined group of pilots for Alaska and Virgin.

Senior captains of Delta Air Lines, United, and American Airlines all make more than senior Alaska captains.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... g-pay.html

MIflyer12 wrote:

flightsimer wrote:

Breeze's A220 pay is still WELL below market average rates for the E190/195 pay at B6/DL/AA/UA...

That assertion is kind of empty, given that only 1 of the 4 carriers operates E190/195, and only 2 of 4 operate A220s.

Thinking Breeze is going to pay DL/AA/UA/WN/FedEx money is foolish. Alaska pilots (a legacy carrier, and habitually well-performing financially) went to arbitration to get that - and came up short. Emphasis mine.

“While the arbitrators’ decision does include what, under most circumstances, would be considered significant raises, it still leaves the combined pilot group well behind our peers at other successful airlines," said Capt. Chris Notaro, who chairs the combined group of pilots for Alaska and Virgin.

Senior captains of Delta Air Lines, United, and American Airlines all make more than senior Alaska captains.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... g-pay.html

No its not. Pilot CBAs include rates for aircraft that are both operating at the airline(s) as well as rates for aircraft that are not currently operating at the airline that could be. DL/AA/UA all have Ejet rates included in there CBA that would be used if they are bought. Same thing for UA and AA for A220 Rates. In fact DL and UA both even have 76 seat RJ rates even included in their CBA.

The Pilot hiring environment currently being experienced has never been seen before, so what has happened in the past really does not show what is happening at any carrier today. Sun Country is now the highest paying 737 operator after being in dead last, and Avelo is paying near the top as well. Pre-Covid, Breeze stated they had 4500 pilot applicants, yet they are now turning to hiring Australians because Americans are turning down employment there.

Even Alaska is experiencing a loss of pilots to other Carriers. Breeze is also not hiring brand new pilots (1500hrs) who would go to a regional, nor could they as to be a captain at a part 121 carrier you must have a certain amount of experience. It typically takes about a year for a pilot in a 121 operation to get the 1000hrs of experience to be at the bare minimums to be a captain and you have to have enough captains for any type of expansion. So the pool they are drawing from is the same pool, UA/DL/AA/WN/AS/B6 are all drawing from as well. Why go to Breeze if you can make twice the amount and have better work rules at another company? If they want to be able to staff their flying, they will have to offer those benefits and wages. 20 Pilots have left the carrier to date, with more leaving in the immediate future. The vast majority of those pilots that have left have gone to UA/AA/DL/B6/WN, with a few going to other ULCC/LCCs.

flightsimer wrote:

So the pool they are drawing from is the same pool, UA/DL/AA/WN/AS/B6 are all drawing from as well. Why go to Breeze if you can make twice the amount and have better work rules at another company? If they want to be able to staff their flying, they will have to offer those benefits and wages. 20 Pilots have left the carrier to date, with more leaving in the immediate future. The vast majority of those pilots that have left have gone to UA/AA/DL/B6/WN, with a few going to other ULCC/LCCs.

Now this makes sense. The pilots are new, so their isn't much seniority, so not much given up to restart.

This is a different market. I do not recall a hiring bonus at Breeze (clawback provisions slow defections).

This will be an interesting year for pilots

Everyone will be defecting everywhere.

The minimum E190 pilots at Breeze:
https://boards.greenhouse.io/breezeairw ... 4851848003

FAA Unrestricted Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate with airplane multi-engine class rating

Must have 1,500 hours total time or 1,000 hours in high performance military aircraft (not including simulator and/or Flight Engineer time)

Must have at least 750 hours in fixed-wing turbine aircraft

Must have the knowledge, skills, and ability to upgrade to captain in a very short period of time


That sounds like they are competing with regionals:
https://www.mesa-air.com/pilots
ATP or Restricted ATP Minimums*

So a few pilots will qualify for Mesa and not Breeze. A few. The regional airlines will be the ones suffering.

Oh, A220 pilots at Breeze have the tougher criteria you note that will be harder to hire.
https://boards.greenhouse.io/breezeairways
(click on the A220 pilot link)
FAA Unrestricted Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate with airplane multi-engine class rating
Must have a minimum of 3,000 hours total time
Must have 2,000 hours total time in large, Group II transport category, fixed-wing aircraft (turbojet aircraft of more than 41,000 lbs. maximum takeoff weight),
Must have 1,000 hours of PIC in large, Group II transport category aircraft (turbojet aircraft of more than 41,000 lbs. maximum takeoff weight)
Note: PIC is defined as Captain or Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls
Must have a total of 1,000+ hours through a combination of the following:
Part 121 SIC or PIC
Part 135 PIC
Part 91K PIC


This means hiring A220 pilots will be a challenge.
But there will be Ejet pilots looking to get in and upgrade. If Breeze has to reduce the lock on seat times to move people up to either A220 copilots or E190 captains, they will do so.

Breeze must start offering the hiring bonuses everyone else is.

Lightsaber

Retention will be tuff..Hard to compete with UA. 737 captain under 2 years $260+ a hr and 16% direct contribution to retirement… The pilots that are staying are banking that it will end up being a JetBlue part 2… Ruff 5 years ahead just like the initial JetBlue pilots had..

MavyWavyATR wrote:

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

BHM! Do I think they’ll land there? No. Should they land there? YES!

Strong routes/Breeze Thrus in current network would be MSY, CHS, PVD, PIT, SAT. In future, anything to CA, all strong markets from BHM.

Still have my own doubts about the viability in HSV as it stands, and hope that wouldn’t scare Breeze off BHM.

amcnd wrote:

Retention will be tuff..Hard to compete with UA. 737 captain under 2 years $260+ a hr and 16% direct contribution to retirement… The pilots that are staying are banking that it will end up being a JetBlue part 2… Ruff 5 years ahead just like the initial JetBlue pilots had..

I couldn't find the newest hire date for a UA captain when searching. Going from memory, it takes 15+ years.

I remember flying in 2002 and the tram to the parking/rental cars had a bunch of AA pilots complaining their JetBlue friends had already made Captain. I wouldn't think any of the largest 6 US airline pilots will defect anyway. While Breeze will have to find A220 captains and will struggle to find enough, they are competing with regionals for entry ejet pilots.

A tough market I grant you, but I wouldn't compare to a US4 captain, it takes forever to have enough seniority to be a NYC captain at those airlines and much longer at non-commuting stations. Breeze will mostly, in my opinion, compete with regionals after 2023. This year will be tough... They'll need to raise pay again. The scheme to pay ejet pilots by seniority A220 rates is obviously to arrest attrition.

I'm not saying it hasn't returned to a market favoring pilots. I'm saying it isn't as clear cut. Also, going by memory, JetBlue had a surplus of pilot applications the first 5 years. It seems to me their pilot issues started when growth (upgrades) stalled.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

amcnd wrote:

Retention will be tuff..Hard to compete with UA. 737 captain under 2 years $260+ a hr and 16% direct contribution to retirement… The pilots that are staying are banking that it will end up being a JetBlue part 2… Ruff 5 years ahead just like the initial JetBlue pilots had..

I couldn't find the newest hire date for a UA captain when searching. Going from memory, it takes 15+ years.

I remember flying in 2002 and the tram to the parking/rental cars had a bunch of AA pilots complaining their JetBlue friends had already made Captain. I wouldn't think any of the largest 6 US airline pilots will defect anyway. While Breeze will have to find A220 captains and will struggle to find enough, they are competing with regionals for entry ejet pilots.

A tough market I grant you, but I wouldn't compare to a US4 captain, it takes forever to have enough seniority to be a NYC captain at those airlines and much longer at non-commuting stations. Breeze will mostly, in my opinion, compete with regionals after 2023. This year will be tough... They'll need to raise pay again. The scheme to pay ejet pilots by seniority A220 rates is obviously to arrest attrition.

I'm not saying it hasn't returned to a market favoring pilots. I'm saying it isn't as clear cut. Also, going by memory, JetBlue had a surplus of pilot applications the first 5 years. It seems to me their pilot issues started when growth (upgrades) stalled.

Lightsaber

Anybody who is off probation and has 500 hours at United can hold captain as of their last bid. Their last bid has 133 unfilled captain vacancies (both coasts) and a bunch of remaining widebody vacancies on both coasts. Newhires are getting 787/777. Movement there is wicked fast right now.

Jetblue E190 CA went under 2 years, Airbus is around 5-6. I think frontier and spirit are 3-4. Guys can leave a LCC/ULCC and quickly make up the lost pay from starting over after year 1. Same case for going to FDX/UPS. 2nd year pay at those places is about what a jetblue 190CA makes. Which is more than any breeze pilot will make for a while. And other places like flexjet and netjets are finally sweetening their offerings. There isn’t much of a compelling reason to stay at Breeze right now unless one is a gambler. Lots of other more certain career paths that offer better pay/QOL/career expectations, and likely will for the foreseeable future. The single and low double digit seniority guys at breeze may do well one day. Or they may not, and miss the 2k/year hiring wave. If they wait 3 years to go to United, their career will be far worse than if they went today. Same is true for airlines like jetblue, who is currently hemorrhaging pilots faster than they ever have in history. Interesting times.

lightsaber wrote:

amcnd wrote:

Retention will be tuff..Hard to compete with UA. 737 captain under 2 years $260+ a hr and 16% direct contribution to retirement… The pilots that are staying are banking that it will end up being a JetBlue part 2… Ruff 5 years ahead just like the initial JetBlue pilots had..

I couldn't find the newest hire date for a UA captain when searching. Going from memory, it takes 15+ years.

I remember flying in 2002 and the tram to the parking/rental cars had a bunch of AA pilots complaining their JetBlue friends had already made Captain. I wouldn't think any of the largest 6 US airline pilots will defect anyway. While Breeze will have to find A220 captains and will struggle to find enough, they are competing with regionals for entry ejet pilots.

A tough market I grant you, but I wouldn't compare to a US4 captain, it takes forever to have enough seniority to be a NYC captain at those airlines and much longer at non-commuting stations. Breeze will mostly, in my opinion, compete with regionals after 2023. This year will be tough... They'll need to raise pay again. The scheme to pay ejet pilots by seniority A220 rates is obviously to arrest attrition.

I'm not saying it hasn't returned to a market favoring pilots. I'm saying it isn't as clear cut. Also, going by memory, JetBlue had a surplus of pilot applications the first 5 years. It seems to me their pilot issues started when growth (upgrades) stalled.

Lightsaber

Upgrade at the big three is between 2-3 years now for all three carriers

flightsimer wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

amcnd wrote:

Retention will be tuff..Hard to compete with UA. 737 captain under 2 years $260+ a hr and 16% direct contribution to retirement… The pilots that are staying are banking that it will end up being a JetBlue part 2… Ruff 5 years ahead just like the initial JetBlue pilots had..

I couldn't find the newest hire date for a UA captain when searching. Going from memory, it takes 15+ years.

I remember flying in 2002 and the tram to the parking/rental cars had a bunch of AA pilots complaining their JetBlue friends had already made Captain. I wouldn't think any of the largest 6 US airline pilots will defect anyway. While Breeze will have to find A220 captains and will struggle to find enough, they are competing with regionals for entry ejet pilots.

A tough market I grant you, but I wouldn't compare to a US4 captain, it takes forever to have enough seniority to be a NYC captain at those airlines and much longer at non-commuting stations. Breeze will mostly, in my opinion, compete with regionals after 2023. This year will be tough... They'll need to raise pay again. The scheme to pay ejet pilots by seniority A220 rates is obviously to arrest attrition.

I'm not saying it hasn't returned to a market favoring pilots. I'm saying it isn't as clear cut. Also, going by memory, JetBlue had a surplus of pilot applications the first 5 years. It seems to me their pilot issues started when growth (upgrades) stalled.

Lightsaber

Upgrade at the big three is between 2-3 years now for all three carriers

FedEx had a 4 month guy get awarded 757 CA recently, and WB went relatively junior as well. Unheard of movement at the top 4 carriers, and I think UPS retires a lot in the next decade too. Not ideal for the airlines that aren’t big3pax/big2cargo from a retention standpoint. Even WN is losing a decent chunk of folks. Honestly don’t know why anyone who is 3-5 years or less at any carrier besides the top 5 would stay where they are at, at least in the last 7 months and maybe next 12. Lots of hiring between now and then, so the math will swing the other way at some point, but this will be a tough year for all carriers losing guys. Best pilot’s market in recent history right now. Breeze will have a tough time managing costs to retain people or in training costs/turnover. Gonna have to pay one way or the other.

Let’s see if Trent and friends can figure it out. Displacing all the TPA 190 guys and not allowing them to bid 220 seems shortsighted, not industry standard, and shows how out of touch he is. Losing those TPA pilots to (insert airline here) and having to hire and train backfills for all those guys who leave because of that decision, instead of just retraining them and letting them stay in TPA, doesn’t give me much confidence that he knows what he’s doing.

The pilot discussion has gone off topic and is derailing the thread.
Please take the pilot discussion to this new thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1469559

MavyWavyATR wrote:

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

I’d love to see BUF/IAG (or any other Upstate Airport) get Breeze service, I was thinking maybe SYR since they are planning on making all of their gates common use. BED will never happen due to noise restrictions, but maybe ORH could work. PSM seems like a safer bet than PWM thanks to location and not being served by a large number of airlines.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

So where does everyone think Breeze will land at next? I'm thinking maybe Buffalo (via BUF or IAG), Chicago (via KGYY), Detroit (via KDET), Portland (ME), Boston (via KBED; future A220 transatlantic base?), Kansas City, Salt Lake City (finally link their HQ with the rest of the network).

I think any of those are good, except for BED. That one could never be a transatlantic base because there is no FIS there (I remember when the Neil Entwistle case was going on they brought him back on a flight that went from LGW to BED but stopped in BGR to clear customs). PVD would be the Boston-area airport for that.

Guessing BDL will be the transatlantic base. Can also see various upstate NY cities opening up.

CairnterriAIR wrote:

Guessing BDL will be the transatlantic base. Can also see various upstate NY cities opening up.

Much like all the talk of these ultra small airports, I think the TATL talk is also a pipe dream for at least the next 5 years.

BDL has a lot of possibilities for an airline like breeze that aren't big enough for a network carrier and where 186 seats on a ULCC is too much. SAV MSY AUS SAN JAX are all of that caliber

Atlantic City announced that they have a “Special” announcement tomorrow. Breeze possibly?

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Atlantic City announced that they have a “Special” announcement tomorrow. Breeze possibly?

I don't think Breeze would want to compete with NK on the Tampa (or maybe West Palm Beach) routing from there.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Atlantic City announced that they have a “Special” announcement tomorrow. Breeze possibly?

I don't think Breeze would want to compete with NK on the Tampa (or maybe West Palm Beach) routing from there.

I would say it’s g4

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breeze-ai ... mmer-2022/

TPA-CMH is done.

MSY-CAK reduced.
MSY-CMH reduced.

New Orleans (MSY) Louisville (SDF) From 4x to 2x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Columbus (CMH) From 4x to 3x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Norfolk (ORF) From 4x to 3x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Pittsburgh (PIT) From 4x to 3x weekly
Tampa (TPA) Northwest Arkansas/Bentonville (XNA) From 4x to 3x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Columbus (CMH) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Norfolk (ORF) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Pittsburgh (PIT) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Tampa (TPA) Charleston (CHS) From 5x weekly to daily
Tampa (TPA) Norfolk (ORF) From 5x weekly to daily
Tampa (TPA) Richmond (RIC) From 5x weekly to daily
Norfolk (ORF) Providence (PVD) From 4x weekly to daily

Flflyer83 wrote:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breeze-airways-route-changes-summer-2022/

TPA-CMH is done.

MSY-CAK reduced.
MSY-CMH reduced.

New Orleans (MSY) Louisville (SDF) From 4x to 2x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Columbus (CMH) From 4x to 3x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Norfolk (ORF) From 4x to 3x weekly
Hartford (BDL) Pittsburgh (PIT) From 4x to 3x weekly
Tampa (TPA) Northwest Arkansas/Bentonville (XNA) From 4x to 3x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Columbus (CMH) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Norfolk (ORF) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Charleston (CHS) Pittsburgh (PIT) From 2x weekly to 4x weekly
Tampa (TPA) Charleston (CHS) From 5x weekly to daily
Tampa (TPA) Norfolk (ORF) From 5x weekly to daily
Tampa (TPA) Richmond (RIC) From 5x weekly to daily
Norfolk (ORF) Providence (PVD) From 4x weekly to daily

They missed CHS-PVD from 4x weekly to daily.

SLC says that they have an announcement for a “new domestic airline” later today
https://twitter.com/KSL5TV/status/14859 ... 22432?s=20

Rumor Alert

How’s Breeze management reacting to the rumors of some flight attendants starting to organize a unionization drive to seek better pay and long-term career prospects?

Flflyer83 wrote:

Rumor Alert

How’s Breeze management reacting to the rumors of some flight attendants starting to organize a unionization drive to seek better pay and long-term career prospects?

Would be hilarious if it happens already , so soon after launching the airline. But as they say, management gets the unions it deserves. Breeze FAs and Pilots don't get any trip RIGS , meaning they could be sent to sit in some hotel for 35 hours and still only get paid for the 3 hours flight time it took to get there and back again. No one can survive making 60 dollars to be away from home for 3 days. All other airlines have RIGS to protect against exploitative practices like this.

luv2cattlecall wrote:

Possibly answering my earlier question about if OKC or CMH is the official inaugural A220 flight... OKC is nearly sold out on the May 4th outbound in Nicest, and fares are much higher than normal, while CMH that morning only has 2 seats sold. Interestingly, the return OKC-TPA flight that day is mostly empty.

Wait, what's the start date for the A220 at CMH? The Ohio thread saw BDL-CMH-ORF-CMH-BDL starting in June.

CobaltScar wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

Rumor Alert

How’s Breeze management reacting to the rumors of some flight attendants starting to organize a unionization drive to seek better pay and long-term career prospects?

Would be hilarious if it happens already , so soon after launching the airline. But as they say, management gets the unions it deserves. Breeze FAs and Pilots don't get any trip RIGS , meaning they could be sent to sit in some hotel for 35 hours and still only get paid for the 3 hours flight time it took to get there and back again. No one can survive making 60 dollars to be away from home for 3 days. All other airlines have RIGS to protect against exploitative practices like this.

What is this acronym for those of us who are unfamiliar with crew pay structures?

trueblew wrote:

CobaltScar wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

Rumor Alert

How’s Breeze management reacting to the rumors of some flight attendants starting to organize a unionization drive to seek better pay and long-term career prospects?

Would be hilarious if it happens already , so soon after launching the airline. But as they say, management gets the unions it deserves. Breeze FAs and Pilots don't get any trip RIGS , meaning they could be sent to sit in some hotel for 35 hours and still only get paid for the 3 hours flight time it took to get there and back again. No one can survive making 60 dollars to be away from home for 3 days. All other airlines have RIGS to protect against exploitative practices like this.

What is this acronym for those of us who are unfamiliar with crew pay structures?

I don’t think it’s an acronym, but there are various rigs out there that ensure adequate pay per day/trip, even if there is low block time. Since flight crew generally get paid only when the airplane is blocked out to blocked in, there are times where you don’t fly at all one day in the middle of a trip, or only fly a short leg, but are gone for a good while. Most places have a 5 hour average daily guarantee. So if you have a 3 day trip that has a 1 hour flight on day 1, 1.5 hour flight on day 2, and 1.5 hour flight on day 3, instead of making 4 hours of pay in 3 days, you’d make 15. Breeze would pay 4 hours for that trip. There are also duty and trip rigs….say if you have a 14 hour day to fly a 30 minute flight out, sit for 12 hours, and a 30 minute flight back, you’d get paid more than 1 hour for that long day of work (probably more than the 5 daily avg as well). In short, they exist to ensure adequate pay while at work/away from home but not technically on the clock.

Edit: here’s a good explanation https://www.aerocrewnews.com/editor/coc ... -and-rigs/

JoseSalazar wrote:

trueblew wrote:

CobaltScar wrote:

Would be hilarious if it happens already , so soon after launching the airline. But as they say, management gets the unions it deserves. Breeze FAs and Pilots don't get any trip RIGS , meaning they could be sent to sit in some hotel for 35 hours and still only get paid for the 3 hours flight time it took to get there and back again. No one can survive making 60 dollars to be away from home for 3 days. All other airlines have RIGS to protect against exploitative practices like this.

What is this acronym for those of us who are unfamiliar with crew pay structures?

I don’t think it’s an acronym, but there are various rigs out there that ensure adequate pay per day/trip, even if there is low block time. Since flight crew generally get paid only when the airplane is blocked out to blocked in, there are times where you don’t fly at all one day in the middle of a trip, or only fly a short leg, but are gone for a good while. Most places have a 5 hour average daily guarantee. So if you have a 3 day trip that has a 1 hour flight on day 1, 1.5 hour flight on day 2, and 1.5 hour flight on day 3, instead of making 4 hours of pay in 3 days, you’d make 15. Breeze would pay 4 hours for that trip. There are also duty and trip rigs….say if you have a 14 hour day to fly a 30 minute flight out, sit for 12 hours, and a 30 minute flight back, you’d get paid more than 1 hour for that long day of work (probably more than the 5 daily avg as well). In short, they exist to ensure adequate pay while at work/away from home but not technically on the clock.

Edit: here’s a good explanation https://www.aerocrewnews.com/editor/coc ... -and-rigs/

Thank you for the explanation. That all makes sense and explains why Breeze are not competitive with their compensation.

The all caps "RIGS" led me to believe it was an acronym since this forum uses quite a bit of technical language and acronyms and most people don't randomly type words in all caps.

trueblew wrote:

JoseSalazar wrote:

trueblew wrote:

What is this acronym for those of us who are unfamiliar with crew pay structures?

I don’t think it’s an acronym, but there are various rigs out there that ensure adequate pay per day/trip, even if there is low block time. Since flight crew generally get paid only when the airplane is blocked out to blocked in, there are times where you don’t fly at all one day in the middle of a trip, or only fly a short leg, but are gone for a good while. Most places have a 5 hour average daily guarantee. So if you have a 3 day trip that has a 1 hour flight on day 1, 1.5 hour flight on day 2, and 1.5 hour flight on day 3, instead of making 4 hours of pay in 3 days, you’d make 15. Breeze would pay 4 hours for that trip. There are also duty and trip rigs….say if you have a 14 hour day to fly a 30 minute flight out, sit for 12 hours, and a 30 minute flight back, you’d get paid more than 1 hour for that long day of work (probably more than the 5 daily avg as well). In short, they exist to ensure adequate pay while at work/away from home but not technically on the clock.

Edit: here’s a good explanation https://www.aerocrewnews.com/editor/coc ... -and-rigs/

Thank you for the explanation. That all makes sense and explains why Breeze are not competitive with their compensation.

The all caps "RIGS" led me to believe it was an acronym since this forum uses quite a bit of technical language and acronyms and most people don't randomly type words in all caps.

Some people say it stands for “ratio-in-guarantee,” but most documents I see have it in lowercase.

I thought Breeze had an unusual pay and recruiting package for flight attendants, including company housing, $1200 monthly minimum pay, and required enrollment at a certain university?

David