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strfyr51
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Re: Frontier ground stop since early morning EST Feb 7 - none currently in the air

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:16 am

Frontier14 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Their 320 family fleets have different engines (Frontier uses CFM and Spirit uses IAE) and on the NEO it's no different - Frontier uses CFM while Spirit use the P&W GTF) just btw...


On deliveries beginning in 2022 Frontier's airbuses will be powered by the P&W GTF engines. This was announced a number of months ago. So going forward the propulsion engines will be the same.

Frontier 14

since neither spirit nor Frontier Overhaul their Engines? Having Both would be of no more importance than the necessary equipment to remove and replace either engine as long if it's already Built up into a "Quick engine Change" configuration (QEC).
 
Flflyer83
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:46 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
People keep mentioning NYC/BOS but not mentioning FLL. I'm not really sure why, it's not like any ULCC outside of NK has been interested in slots/gates in the Northeast.

The more enticing opportunity is FLL. Not only has B6 said they will give up some/most/all(unclear at this point) of NK's gates in FLL in a potential merger, but regardless NK currently controls 30% of FLL traffic.

NK being absorbed into B6 presents FLL as probably the most enticing opportunity for ULCCs in any deal. After all South Florida is one of the largest tourist spots in the country (ULCCs market), and is much cheaper than its neighbor to the south(MIA) to operate from.

Check the first slide in "divestiture commitments" it says they would divest 5 FLL gates https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/ ... 0001158463


So if we assume that 5 gate minimum, that's 10% of available FLL gates going up for grabs....

That's an enormous opportunity for G4 & F9, given they offer less than daily schedules.


FLL has 64 gates plus hardstands… which makes 5 gates less than 10%. NK and B6 combined, have 27 gates. I’d guess they would relinquish the B6 gates on E… E2, 4, 6, 8, 10. E9 is used by AA (RON), NK, B6, and AD departures most days. AA has E1, 3, 5, 7. Currently, F9 uses T1 Concourse C, I think.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:57 am

isp2 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
Check the first slide in "divestiture commitments" it says they would divest 5 FLL gates https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/ ... 0001158463


So if we assume that 5 gate minimum, that's 10% of available FLL gates going up for grabs....

That's an enormous opportunity for G4 & F9, given they offer less than daily schedules.



Frontier reopened FLL with 8 daily flights and currently has between 3-6 daily flights. What less than daily schedule are you referring to?


F9 and G4 operate the majority of their routes less than every day across their network (ie 2-3-4-5x weekly).

That's what I'm referring to.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:14 am

Midwestindy wrote:
People keep mentioning NYC/BOS but not mentioning FLL. I'm not really sure why, it's not like any ULCC outside of NK has been interested in slots/gates in the Northeast.

The more enticing opportunity is FLL. Not only has B6 said they will give up some/most/all(unclear at this point) of NK's gates in FLL in a potential merger, but regardless NK currently controls 30% of FLL traffic.

NK being absorbed into B6 presents FLL as probably the most enticing opportunity for ULCCs in any deal. After all South Florida is one of the largest tourist spots in the country (ULCCs market), and is much cheaper than its neighbor to the south(MIA) to operate from.


F9 reiterating these talking points.

Earnings call:
Question: Would you expand in NYC/BOS or SoFla?

Biffle: Absolutely, if we could get the right opportunity, we'd be excited for that. And I think consumers would be, too.

Also says it wasn't just expensive, but the slot timings were inefficient for F9's ops.

They put out a press release underscoring the benefits for them and I largely agree with what they said.
https://ir.flyfrontier.com/news-release ... -ultra-low
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:59 pm

F9 could buy all of those Chinese MAXs and have all the planes they could ever use. LOL
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:40 pm

While DEN is currently the only destination that F9 currently serves nonstop from DCA, there are some within-DCA perimeter adds that F9 could make out of DCA such as DCA-ATL/MDW/FLL/MIA/MCO/TPA if F9 can acquire extra slots at DCA.

There are currently no ULCC's serving Atlanta, Chicago, or Florida nonstop from DCA, and DEN is currently the only destination that is served nonstop from DCA on an ULCC.

AA is also currently the only airline serving MIA nonstop from DCA, even though DCA has nonstop service to FLL on B6 and WN.

Would F9 take advantage of any further expansion opportunities that would become available at DCA if additional slots at DCA become available?
 
ahj2000
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:43 pm

It’s going to be interesting to see F9s network adjust in response to the B6/NK (BK?) merger. I’d love to see Indigo throw planes at them and F9 expand super aggressively, but we shall see. There’s a lot of markets out there that will be looking for ULCC service.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:32 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
It’s going to be interesting to see F9s network adjust in response to the B6/NK (BK?) merger. I’d love to see Indigo throw planes at them and F9 expand super aggressively, but we shall see. There’s a lot of markets out there that will be looking for ULCC service.


Well they can expand too fast and too super agressively... Otherwise their service will suffer and we'll start seeing Spirit-like episodes happen on their planes from passengers unable to cope with inconvenience. God forbid.
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:47 pm

There are a few markets that don't currently have nonstop service to MIA/FLL on ULCC's such as OKC, OMA, PHX, and SAT that could support F9 nonstop service to the MIA/FLL market, and there is a discussion regarding the top remaining contiguous U.S. markets without ULCC nonstop service to the MIA/FLL market at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1473153.

AA is also currently the only airline serving OKC, OMA, and SAT nonstop from the MIA/FLL market.

Will F9 take advantage of the opportunity that is there to add nonstop service to the MIA/FLL market from OKC/OMA/PHX/SAT?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:16 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
It’s going to be interesting to see F9s network adjust in response to the B6/NK (BK?) merger. I’d love to see Indigo throw planes at them and F9 expand super aggressively, but we shall see. There’s a lot of markets out there that will be looking for ULCC service.


Well they can expand too fast and too super agressively... Otherwise their service will suffer and we'll start seeing Spirit-like episodes happen on their planes from passengers unable to cope with inconvenience. God forbid.


One really can't pretend that Frontier is any better than Spirit operationally. Latest DOT Air Travel Consumer Report:

Frontier on-time for May: 64.6% (ind avg 77.2%)
Spirit on-time: 68.8%

Frontier cancellations: 1.4%
Spirit: 2.2%

Frontier IDB per 10K passengers: 5.32
Spirit: 0.50 (ind avg 0.44)
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:27 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
It’s going to be interesting to see F9s network adjust in response to the B6/NK (BK?) merger. I’d love to see Indigo throw planes at them and F9 expand super aggressively, but we shall see. There’s a lot of markets out there that will be looking for ULCC service.


Well they can expand too fast and too super agressively... Otherwise their service will suffer and we'll start seeing Spirit-like episodes happen on their planes from passengers unable to cope with inconvenience. God forbid.


One really can't pretend that Frontier is any better than Spirit operationally. Latest DOT Air Travel Consumer Report:

Frontier on-time for May: 64.6% (ind avg 77.2%)
Spirit on-time: 68.8%

Frontier cancellations: 1.4%
Spirit: 2.2%

Frontier IDB per 10K passengers: 5.32
Spirit: 0.50 (ind avg 0.44)


ouch.....
 
wjcandee
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:53 am

JetBlue is paying an insane amount of money to pick up some aircraft leases and personnel, many of whom they will lay off, and many of whom JetBlue wouldn't have hired otherwise. Primary goal is remove a competitor, but all they're doing is opening more opportunities for Frontier and Neeleman. Great irony.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:29 am

wjcandee wrote:
JetBlue is paying an insane amount of money to pick up some aircraft leases and personnel, many of whom they will lay off, and many of whom JetBlue wouldn't have hired otherwise. Primary goal is remove a competitor, but all they're doing is opening more opportunities for Frontier and Neeleman. Great irony.


Just cause spirit carries a lot of trash around doesn’t mean they hire it too. They’re at least as selective as JetBlue.
 
santi319
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:40 am

wjcandee wrote:
JetBlue is paying an insane amount of money to pick up some aircraft leases and personnel, many of whom they will lay off, and many of whom JetBlue wouldn't have hired otherwise. Primary goal is remove a competitor, but all they're doing is opening more opportunities for Frontier and Neeleman. Great irony.


Tell us how you really feel? And what you are saying is problematic as NK’s staff is as qualified as B6. Will lay off is purely speculative.. both workforces are unionized and B6 has a no layoff/furlough policy.


But then again we live in an era where NOBODY does research.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:16 am

santi319 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
JetBlue is paying an insane amount of money to pick up some aircraft leases and personnel, many of whom they will lay off, and many of whom JetBlue wouldn't have hired otherwise. Primary goal is remove a competitor, but all they're doing is opening more opportunities for Frontier and Neeleman. Great irony.

Tell us how you really feel? And what you are saying is problematic as NK’s staff is as qualified as B6. Will lay off is purely speculative.. both workforces are unionized and B6 has a no layoff/furlough policy.
But then again we live in an era where NOBODY does research.


Right. Because the history of airline mergers is that the acquired company's employees always do well. And the acquiring company's employees NEVER belittle those who were employed by the other carrier. And because they're all union, it's all kumbaya. The pilots are both ALPA, which is a start, but not a finish. FAs at JetBlue are TWU; at Spirit are AFA.
 
santi319
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
santi319 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
JetBlue is paying an insane amount of money to pick up some aircraft leases and personnel, many of whom they will lay off, and many of whom JetBlue wouldn't have hired otherwise. Primary goal is remove a competitor, but all they're doing is opening more opportunities for Frontier and Neeleman. Great irony.

Tell us how you really feel? And what you are saying is problematic as NK’s staff is as qualified as B6. Will lay off is purely speculative.. both workforces are unionized and B6 has a no layoff/furlough policy.
But then again we live in an era where NOBODY does research.


Right. Because the history of airline mergers is that the acquired company's employees always do well. And the acquiring company's employees NEVER belittle those who were employed by the other carrier. And because they're all union, it's all kumbaya. The pilots are both ALPA, which is a start, but not a finish. FAs at JetBlue are TWU; at Spirit are AFA.


Yes I understand all that. But Indigo Partners treats their employees like an incumbency. Most of their non US airlines their FA don’t even have benefits, and they have temporal contracts. Their non airplane staff is entirely outsourced, their pilot attrition problem in the US is the worst. Labor is nothing but a hassle for them. So this is what I meant.

The leverage of over 20-25K direct airline workers, most unionized, is unprecedented in strong labor benefits.

So at least for the near future, aviation workers in the US can look forward to keep better pay and better labor relationships than say Europe.

And if someone “belittles” you because your airline “bought” another airline… loooool…. I’m sorry but thats just ridiculous and delusional . They say “no one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:33 pm

Is there any protocol to avoid confusing flight numbers at gates? Side by side gates right now have flight 734 and 743, both boarding nearly the same time
 
CRJ5000
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:03 pm

Had a little laugh at Frontier's instagram story today...

Image
 
santi319
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:22 pm

CRJ5000 wrote:
Had a little laugh at Frontier's instagram story today...

Image


Ahh well yes, typical Indigo. Reminds me of Spirit circa 2009-2011
 
nkops
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:31 pm

santi319 wrote:
CRJ5000 wrote:
Had a little laugh at Frontier's instagram story today...

Image


Ahh well yes, typical Indigo. Reminds me of Spirit circa 2009-2011


I don't see them doing another Hoffa one though
 
santi319
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:46 pm

nkops wrote:
santi319 wrote:
CRJ5000 wrote:
Had a little laugh at Frontier's instagram story today...

Image


Ahh well yes, typical Indigo. Reminds me of Spirit circa 2009-2011


I don't see them doing another Hoffa one though


Or the milf lol.
 
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ADent
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:15 am

From: https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... -2022.html

Denver-based Frontier cut about 4,000 flights and 800,000 seats from flights between November 2022 and February 2023, according to data aviation company Cirium Inc.


Frontier cut its Fort Myers schedule by about 40% between December and February, according to Cirium data. Tampa's cuts totaled about 18% over the same period.



The simpleflying article https://simpleflying.com/frontier-pulls ... edule/amp/ has more detail such as listing the 43 routes cut. But the biz journal article did mention there was at least one new route (DEN-HOU).
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:02 pm

CRJ5000 wrote:
Had a little laugh at Frontier's instagram story today...

Image


Lol yea I got the email on that too.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:53 pm

10 new routes from PHX starting this fall/winter

BNA, BWI, FLL, IND MCI, MSP, PDX, PHL, SEA, SNA

https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... op-routes/
 
rph99
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:53 pm

Frontier has announced they will be starting non-stop flights from Denver - Montego Bay starting in Feb. 2023.

A320neo.
 
Iggy500
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:30 pm

MDW/STL-MBJ have also been added.

If F9 eventually adds MDW-CUN, I’d say that there’s a pretty good chance of them ending ORD service entirely.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:01 pm

Iggy500 wrote:
MDW/STL-MBJ have also been added.

If F9 eventually adds MDW-CUN, I’d say that there’s a pretty good chance of them ending ORD service entirely.


ORD has to be tough with AA, UA, NK and now even WN in the mix. Ok, those 4 carriers only directly compete on F9's ORD-CUN/LAS/MCO services; ORD-PUJ might be a bit easier since F9 only has to worry about AA and UA (on NK and WN you would have to connect).

At MDW, they only have to worry about direct competition from WN. I would not be surprised if costs are cheaper at MDW, too. Lots of construction at Terminal 5 these days. It seems like things are going a lot better at MDW - F9's original station in the Chicago market - than ORD anyways.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:57 pm

Iggy500 wrote:
MDW/STL-MBJ have also been added.

If F9 eventually adds MDW-CUN, I’d say that there’s a pretty good chance of them ending ORD service entirely.


3 intl routes for F9 at STL now, not bad. Looks like MBJ is running the days PUJ isn't. All 3 also will be run by WN starting in March, although less weekly on MBJ/PUJ. I've been curious to see if F9 picks up some of the other apple vacation routes run by mexican carriers. Would love to see them run SJD/PVR instead of Viva/Volaris/whoever apple picks for them.
 
Mexicana757
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Re: Frontier Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:28 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Iggy500 wrote:
MDW/STL-MBJ have also been added.

If F9 eventually adds MDW-CUN, I’d say that there’s a pretty good chance of them ending ORD service entirely.


ORD has to be tough with AA, UA, NK and now even WN in the mix. Ok, those 4 carriers only directly compete on F9's ORD-CUN/LAS/MCO services; ORD-PUJ might be a bit easier since F9 only has to worry about AA and UA (on NK and WN you would have to connect).

At MDW, they only have to worry about direct competition from WN. I would not be surprised if costs are cheaper at MDW, too. Lots of construction at Terminal 5 these days. It seems like things are going a lot better at MDW - F9's original station in the Chicago market - than ORD anyways.


Good to see F9 add international service at MDW. The flight will operate on Saturdays only. Customs at MDW is usually a breeze if your flight is the only one arriving. This flight arrives 30 minutes after two other WN international flights. The FIS will be busy on Saturdays between 330p-730p handling 8 arrivals. Hopefully we see more international flight by F9 at MDW.

I think the ORD-CUN flight will remain as they have an agreement with Apple Vacations.
 
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TWA772LR
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Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:45 pm

Looks like Shannon airport approached Frontier Airlines CEO about flying there once F9 gets the XLR. The article provides a vague answer from Biffle which sounds like they're taking everything in account from TATL service, to South America from MIA, as well as west coast US to Caribbean service. Even a premium service is being considered.

Nothing in stone and these kinds of plans are still far off but definitely exciting times ahead for Frontier. I'd say 1-2 rows on all planes of 2x2 seating for a premium Y or J service isn't unreasonable even for a ULCC especially considering 8+ hour flights (crew rest issues being the largest hurdle for narrowbody ULCC TATL). But finding feed in fellow Indigo airlines like Wizz would be a game changer for (U)LCC long haul travel, IMO.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... sideration
 
jfk777
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:54 pm

This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.
 
santi319
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:04 am

They don’t even have cleaners for their planes while on the ground but somehow transatlantic premium service is on the line .. lol
 
Wneast
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:05 am

jfk777 wrote:
This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.

PHL.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:10 am

Don't be so quick to judge. Just because they're looking at it doesn't mean it will happen. The market can change drastically at the dro oof a hat just like it did during covid before F9 gets the XLR.

Personally, I don't think KEF is unfounded, or Ireland. But they definitely should play to their strengths which they are, indicated by the new MBJ routes. More domestic US growth needs to and will happen, but that will be the foundation of things to come. IMO F9 is being pragmatic, and it's a shame Spirit decided on B6 as a partner.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:17 am

jfk777 wrote:
This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.

unless Frontier get's their Means to coincide with their ambitions? They're pushing for the next airline on the Scap heap of airline history, Being inexpensive is ok, but being CHEAP? Is an entirely different matter. If they're Cheap in their operation? Just how long is it until they become Cheap in their Maintenance? they need to get their infrastructure together so the proper things re done at the right time, OR? We might see the wrong things done at the right time because they were too damn Cheap to do it right the first time. And Lord knows, I've seen it Both ways and have the "scars" in my savings to attest t what I've seen.





;
 
santi319
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:20 am

strfyr51 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.

unless Frontier get's their Means to coincide with their ambitions? They're pushing for the next airline on the Scap heap of airline history, Being inexpensive is ok, but being CHEAP? Is an entirely different matter. If they're Cheap in their operation? Just how long is it until they become Cheap in their Maintenance? they need to get their infrastructure together so the proper things re done at the right time, OR? We might see the wrong things done at the right time because they were too damn Cheap to do it right the first time. And Lord knows, I've seen it Both ways and have the "scars" in my savings to attest t what I've seen.
;


This is how Indigo Partners operates their airlines, in my opinion IATA should take a closer look at the insides of how these airlines operate.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:22 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge. Just because they're looking at it doesn't mean it will happen. The market can change drastically at the dro oof a hat just like it did during covid before F9 gets the XLR.

Personally, I don't think KEF is unfounded, or Ireland. But they definitely should play to their strengths which they are, indicated by the new MBJ routes. More domestic US growth needs to and will happen, but that will be the foundation of things to come. IMO F9 is being pragmatic, and it's a shame Spirit decided on B6 as a partner.

Well? There are consultants galore who can tell and show them the right order to do things in if they don't know. Because once you KNOW? If it's done wrong? you might find the FAA coming down on you like a ton of BRICKS not to mention EASA.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:27 am

History has repeatedly shown that long haul ULCC routes do not work.

In the say 16 hours it takes to do a rt to Europe at $200 ew that same aircraft could have made 3 rt to Florida at let's say $100 each way. The Florida flights would make significantly more money under those circumstances.
 
UA735WL
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:44 am

I would expect them to show up in Hawaii using the XLRs with all 240 seats filled (and the belly stuffed to the gills with cargo) before they add any premium seating and try Europe.
 
airzona11
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:20 am

UA735WL wrote:
I would expect them to show up in Hawaii using the XLRs with all 240 seats filled (and the belly stuffed to the gills with cargo) before they add any premium seating and try Europe.


Does the XLR that dense and bags have capability to add cargo? Plus - is cargo even part of the ULCC play?
 
UA735WL
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:40 am

airzona11 wrote:
UA735WL wrote:
I would expect them to show up in Hawaii using the XLRs with all 240 seats filled (and the belly stuffed to the gills with cargo) before they add any premium seating and try Europe.


Does the XLR that dense and bags have capability to add cargo? Plus - is cargo even part of the ULCC play?


Not sure. I'm not even sure if you would need an XLR to go to Hawaii with 240 seats + bags and if there would he any room left over for cargo. ULCC type service to Hawaii ( a domestic vacation destination ) just seems more up their alley than going to Europe (which requires radios with different spacing, crew rests on most routes, etc).
 
izbtmnhd
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Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:53 am

jfk777 wrote:
This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.


They don’t need an Atlantic “gateway” out of an over-congested airport like JFK or BOS. They could operate TATL from several US airports, even some which are mid-sized.
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:28 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
This is another example of "you can but should you". Frontier does what they do well just because JetBlue is doing Europe doesn't mean they should. Frontier does not have a large presence in New York or Boston so where are they going to launch an Atlantic gateway from ? Frontier should continue doing what it does, the history of airline with Oceanic ambitions is littered with has beens.


They don’t need an Atlantic “gateway” out of an over-congested airport like JFK or BOS. They could operate TATL from several US airports, even some which are mid-sized.


Exactly. Not to mention they would get killed by the majors out of New York and Boston.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:28 am

UA735WL wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
UA735WL wrote:
I would expect them to show up in Hawaii using the XLRs with all 240 seats filled (and the belly stuffed to the gills with cargo) before they add any premium seating and try Europe.


Does the XLR that dense and bags have capability to add cargo? Plus - is cargo even part of the ULCC play?


Not sure. I'm not even sure if you would need an XLR to go to Hawaii with 240 seats + bags and if there would he any room left over for cargo. ULCC type service to Hawaii ( a domestic vacation destination ) just seems more up their alley than going to Europe (which requires radios with different spacing, crew rests on most routes, etc).


Hawaii requires ETOPS.

If you need to fly a ULCC, you probably should not bother with visiting Hawaii because it only gets more expensive once you get there.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1935
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:48 am

usflyer msp wrote:
UA735WL wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

Does the XLR that dense and bags have capability to add cargo? Plus - is cargo even part of the ULCC play?


Not sure. I'm not even sure if you would need an XLR to go to Hawaii with 240 seats + bags and if there would he any room left over for cargo. ULCC type service to Hawaii ( a domestic vacation destination ) just seems more up their alley than going to Europe (which requires radios with different spacing, crew rests on most routes, etc).


Hawaii requires ETOPS.

If you need to fly a ULCC, you probably should not bother with visiting Hawaii because it only gets more expensive once you get there.


Great point.
 
Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:55 am

They have to have some sort of long route plan for them or there was no point to order any. They could have stuck with non XLR varieties.

SA/longer Hawaii and Alaska routes maybe. Not really sure Europe should be on their radar but maybe they can make it work from some secondary options.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 9242
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:39 am

Jshank83 wrote:
They have to have some sort of long route plan for them or there was no point to order any. They could have stuck with non XLR varieties.

SA/longer Hawaii and Alaska routes maybe. Not really sure Europe should be on their radar but maybe they can make it work from some secondary options.

They can still trade range for pay load/performance. F9 can still do BOG/LIM/UIO/MEX, 3 of those are hot and high but that's where the XLR would shine, and it'd be great for VFR traffic with a lot of bags. Even MIA/PHL-PDL, MIA-Tenerife (pushing it), and KEF are viable options that aren't too hard on aircraft utilization. As for Ireland, there's no shortage of Americans that want to visit, even just seasonal service would suffice for F9.
 
socaljoeyb
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 2:29 am

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:50 am

I hope B6 keeps Spirit's Colombia network, otherwise I hope F9 expands there.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 897
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:55 am

I can see Colombia, Bolivia, Perú and maybe northern Brazil VFR tolerating the "product" due to price sensitivity. As BB said in the interview; it's NK markets they are looking to poach after post merger B6NK prices themselves out of the market for a significant demographic. Even then, Avianca, LATAM & COPA are working hard to align their product and cost structures to meet that need.

Europe and HI are fun threats but total pipe dreams IMHO. TATL is bloated with capacity in the near term from legacy US, Euro flags, Euro flag weird "LCC"s subsidiaries & actual LCCs. HI ...as mentioned above...is way out of the price point for the $199 rt crowd and quite well served.
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 5801
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Re: Frontier Eyeing TATL and Deep SA

Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:27 am

This was already being discussed since a few days ago here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468695&p=23509553#p23505331

But indeed I think it deserves it's own topic. After all it's not so much about Philadelphia airport rather than it is about Frontier.

usflyer msp wrote:
History has repeatedly shown that long haul ULCC routes do not work.


I would beg to differ, Norwegian was rather successful with their DUB-SWF route. So much that they even increased it to double daily. It was the MAX grounding that put an end to the route, financial results had nothing to do with it.

Long haul ULCC can definitely work but you need a strategy for it. It's a niche market that is quickly saturated, before you know it you're competing against yourself. But there are several examples of successful long haul low cost airlines. Name FrenchBee, Scoot and ZipAir Tokyo, they all pick up demand which the full-service airlines fail to catch.
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