AMALH747430 wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

AMALH747430 wrote:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-did-not-properly-oversee-southwest-airlines-us-watchdog-says-2022-07-27/

Looks like the Office of Special Counsel came down on the FAA for not properly overseeing Southwest and being improperly influenced by Southwest.

Not a good look for Southwest or the FAA. Southwest influenced the FAA to give it a pass/go easy on them regarding serious safety issues. It doesn’t seem like Southwest has learned a thing since the FAA proposed that $10 million dollar fine back in 2008 for failing to inspect planes and flying them around with structural cracks.

This is a rehash of the same exact thing from several years ago and alludes to the same events, this is not some new news.

The article is from July 27 (a week ago) and references an Office of Special Counsel report from April that was just made public. I don’t believe the full details of just how deeply Southwest was trying to influence the FAA on it’s own oversight were previously made public.

Here is a quote from the article:

The report said the FAA mishandled its response to a February 2019 accident caused by pilot error in which both wings were damaged while attempting to land at the Hartford airport. Connecticut as well as a runway overrun incident at Burbank, California airport and an incident where a crew was unable to divert because of low fuel and needed multiple landing attempts at Philadelphia.

In 2020, the FAA said it was seeking to impose a $3.92 million fine on Southwest for alleged weight infractions on 21,505 flights in 2018 on 44 aircraft. The report made public Wednesday said the issue was resolved in 2021, with payment of a $200,000 civil penalty and deferral of the remaining civil penalty based upon corrective actions accomplished by Southwest.

So for Southwest specifically, its not new news. For the FAA? Its new news.

Runway765 wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Runway765 wrote:

I don’t just say it as a BNA resident, but on paper, BNA would be a decent place to do what they are doing at DEN, albeit on a smaller scale. I’ve heard rumors that things are heading in that direction, but I think the presence of STL and ATL so close may temper things a bit.

But I would agree BNA and FLL would be the next two stations WN needs to focus on. They can regain a lot of ground at the latter if this B6/NK merger goes through.

WN needs to focus on PHX. They’re sitting on a ton of real estate (32 gates and an expanding maintenance facility) yet they currently are only operating 181 peak daily departures. AA is focused elsewhere, G4 is mostly at AZA and it’s PHX routes don’t compete with WN. NK and B6 are non-factors and F9 is primed for expansion but there is a limit to how much it can expand. Other than the PAC NW (where AS is building a nice network our of PHX) and DL hub markets (where DL is by far the dominant carrier) WN is in a nice position to be the dominant carrier at PHX if it would ever devote aircraft and crews to PHX.

I probably should have added the wording “in the east” to my statement about WN needing to focus on BNA/FLL. That is what meant.

I largely agree about your assessment of PHX, but WN seems to be putting all of their eggs in the DEN basket for now. The only issue there is that it’s not as good of a connecting point as DEN. Nevertheless, AA does seem to be distracted so WN could give them even more problems if they could ramp up to 250 or so flights (roughly 8 turns).

The other issue with PHX is WN may have to put more resources into defending LAS from a combined B6/NK.

It will be interesting. IMHO, if WN wants to continue to evolve into a more “hub like” structure, then PHX, DEN, DAL, HOU, BNA and BWI should be their “cornerstone” stations going forward.

the problem IS? WN needs a lot more airplanes system wide to offset what AA is doing, and might do in the future. WN can do some damage? But if AA wanted to? They couldn't care less without a fare war and? Who needs that? WN is already one of the least expensive of the mainline carriers. And their only drawback is now?
They don't have anything bigger than the 737 and they nearly have the capacity for them. The 737 is a fine airplane, however? it's nearly at the end of the line and I'm not sure it will be relevant that much longer as new equipment is on the drawing board. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 737 from the -200 to the -900. They are and have always been workhorse airplanes. But ? WN is growing into a system airline and not a "point to pointer". Where do they go from Here? They're flying to Hawaii and they have the "chops" to fly to Europe as well, So? Their next move is what? What I think might not come soon? But it IS coming. I think about the time Boeing replaces the 757. I'm not going to say I'll be around then because it might be another 10-15 years, But? Barring a complete collapse of the US Airline Market? It's going to Happen!

I’ve been flying WN regularly since I started college in Lubbock in 2001. One thing that has always puzzled me is why DAL, with fewer gates, is both currently and historically a bigger operation than HOU.

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-airl ... -2022/amp/

This article shows that for July 2022:
#5 DAL had 5,370 scheduled departures to 62 destinations out of 18 gates.
#7 HOU had 4,491 scheduled departures to 59 destinations out of 20 gates.
DAL had 879 more scheduled departures in July 2022 but 2 fewer gates.

I did a look back just to make sure that going back into IAH wasn’t the cause of that. It doesn’t appear to be. This 2018 article also shows DAL ahead of HOU: https://thepointsguy.com/news/snapshot- ... ports/amp/

I’ve followed WN cities for quite some time and I cannot remember the last time I saw HOU ahead of DAL (maybe in the Wright Amendment era) in the list of largest WN stations. It always surprised me that WN hasn’t tried to flow more traffic through HOU as it’s the closest “mega city” to DAL but doesn’t suffer from the constraints DAL has.

Before Wright changes HOU was bigger for a time. It goes back and forth. WN is building 7 new gates at HOU so will keep growing Ina few years. For now DAL is getting close to maxed out it would seem.

FlyingSicilian wrote:

Before Wright changes HOU was bigger for a time. It goes back and forth. WN is building 7 new gates at HOU so will keep growing Ina few years. For now DAL is getting close to maxed out it would seem.

I agree DAL is close to being maxed out. It just seems like HOU has been underutilized for WN. I’ve been told (and seen) for years that while Houston has very robust international demand, it punches under it’s weight domestically. CO had a fortress hub at IAH because it was their only mid-continent hub, but once UA and CO merged, some of that connection traffic began flowing through DEN and ORD which are much better positioned geographically, save going from the west to the southeast or the east to the southwest. It always seemed to me that what WN has at HOU and UA has at IAH are undersized for a metro area the size of Houston. The stats I posted above are from this year and 2018. I found some additional numbers from 2015 that show the same.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161223133 ... heet#top10

It always surprised me that WN never flew LBB-HOU or AMA-HOU during the Wright Amendment era as that would have unlocked quite a bit of the WN network that was inaccessible at the time. I believe they started LBB-HOU sometime in the late 2010’s and then we had Sunday only (or something like that) AMA-HOU for a short time prior to the pandemic. During the post-Wright era, WN has to ration gates at DAL so the schedule isn’t always great for cities that are 100% dependent on DAL for eastbound connections (LAS was there for westbound but only 1x daily) like AMA was when I lived there. AMA is now connected to AUS and DEN which makes things much better but HOU would really open up connections to other places. CO and then UA always commanded handsome fares on LBB/AMA-IAH when I lived both places. It’s always puzzled me that WN let CO/UA have that market when HOU is one of their “mega stations.”

In any case, glad to see the second runway open at DAL as it’s only about 2 miles from where I live. I hope once staffing and equipment levels get where they need to be WN will be able to make DAL as robust as they can with the gates they have and optimize it for O/D and flow connections through places like HOU that are less constrained. Just my 2 cents.

AMALH747430 wrote:

FlyingSicilian wrote:

Before Wright changes HOU was bigger for a time. It goes back and forth. WN is building 7 new gates at HOU so will keep growing Ina few years. For now DAL is getting close to maxed out it would seem.

It just seems like HOU has been underutilized for WN. I’ve been told (and seen) for years that while Houston has very robust international demand, it punches under it’s weight domestically.

It always surprised me that WN never flew LBB-HOU or AMA-HOU during the Wright Amendment era as that would have unlocked quite a bit of the WN network that was inaccessible at the time. I believe they started LBB-HOU sometime in the late 2010’s and then we had Sunday only (or something like that) AMA-HOU for a short time prior to the pandemic. During the post-Wright era, WN has to ration gates at DAL so the schedule isn’t always great for cities that are 100% dependent on DAL for eastbound connections (LAS was there for westbound but only 1x daily) like AMA was when I lived there. AMA is now connected to AUS and DEN which makes things much better but HOU would really open up connections to other places. CO and then UA always commanded handsome fares on LBB/AMA-IAH when I lived both places. It’s always puzzled me that WN let CO/UA have that market when HOU is one of their “mega stations.”

There are a few markets such as CVG/MKE/PDX that can support the return of WN nonstop service out of HOU with the cuts that UA has made at IAH. UA is also currently the only airline serving CVG/MKE/PDX nonstop from Houston.

UA is also still down to only 2x daily nonstops on IAH-CVG through end-of-schedule (which goes through 7/2/2023), whereas UA had more nonstop flights to CVG out of IAH prior to the COVID-19 pandemic and DL was also serving CVG nonstop from IAH in addition to UA prior to the pandemic.

I agree that WN re-adding HOU-AMA/LBB nonstop service is a possibility as WN was originally planning on serving AMA/LBB nonstop from HOU prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

WN was also originally planning on operating HOU-NAS nonstop service in Summer 2020, but dropped those plans due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

strfyr51 wrote:

Runway765 wrote:

Vctony wrote:

WN needs to focus on PHX. They’re sitting on a ton of real estate (32 gates and an expanding maintenance facility) yet they currently are only operating 181 peak daily departures. AA is focused elsewhere, G4 is mostly at AZA and it’s PHX routes don’t compete with WN. NK and B6 are non-factors and F9 is primed for expansion but there is a limit to how much it can expand. Other than the PAC NW (where AS is building a nice network our of PHX) and DL hub markets (where DL is by far the dominant carrier) WN is in a nice position to be the dominant carrier at PHX if it would ever devote aircraft and crews to PHX.

I probably should have added the wording “in the east” to my statement about WN needing to focus on BNA/FLL. That is what meant.

I largely agree about your assessment of PHX, but WN seems to be putting all of their eggs in the DEN basket for now. The only issue there is that it’s not as good of a connecting point as DEN. Nevertheless, AA does seem to be distracted so WN could give them even more problems if they could ramp up to 250 or so flights (roughly 8 turns).

The other issue with PHX is WN may have to put more resources into defending LAS from a combined B6/NK.

It will be interesting. IMHO, if WN wants to continue to evolve into a more “hub like” structure, then PHX, DEN, DAL, HOU, BNA and BWI should be their “cornerstone” stations going forward.

the problem IS? WN needs a lot more airplanes system wide to offset what AA is doing, and might do in the future. WN can do some damage? But if AA wanted to? They couldn't care less without a fare war and? Who needs that? WN is already one of the least expensive of the mainline carriers. And their only drawback is now?
They don't have anything bigger than the 737 and they nearly have the capacity for them. The 737 is a fine airplane, however? it's nearly at the end of the line and I'm not sure it will be relevant that much longer as new equipment is on the drawing board. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 737 from the -200 to the -900. They are and have always been workhorse airplanes. But ? WN is growing into a system airline and not a "point to pointer". Where do they go from Here? They're flying to Hawaii and they have the "chops" to fly to Europe as well, So? Their next move is what? What I think might not come soon? But it IS coming. I think about the time Boeing replaces the 757. I'm not going to say I'll be around then because it might be another 10-15 years, But? Barring a complete collapse of the US Airline Market? It's going to Happen!

May I ask what is up with all your random question marks? It’s hard to tell what you are saying. Are you asking questions or making statements?

Please provide a link where Southwest is chomping at the but to fly to Europe. I’ve not seen that posted anywhere.

Thanks,

There is an article titled "Who wants to drive to Dallas? Time for Southwest to show Fort Worth some Love" on the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's website at https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/e ... 20341.html.

Southwest 7M8 N8767M delivered this morning BFI-PHX as WN8500.

The remainder of the white tail MAX 8's are in various stages of delivery, next one should be in the near future.

Runway765 wrote:

Are those O&D numbers taking into account business travel? Because DFW is a vastly bigger business market than DEN. I would think 300 WN flights could be supported by the metroplex market even if it was split between DAL/DFW..

It is total O & D but misleading because it says market, but markets have multiple airports and it fails to combine. Miami, New York, Chicago, etc. are larger O&D markets and have multiple airports.

N8620H and N8619F are still flying around in their Canyon Blue colors, does anyone have an idea on when they will hit the paint shop to get their new special liveries? I thought it said Summer 2022, but Summer is almost over.

WN732 wrote:

N8620H and N8619F are still flying around in their Canyon Blue colors, does anyone have an idea on when they will hit the paint shop to get their new special liveries? I thought it said Summer 2022, but Summer is almost over.

8620, end of this month. 8619, end of next month.

WN732 wrote:

N8620H and N8619F are still flying around in their Canyon Blue colors, does anyone have an idea on when they will hit the paint shop to get their new special liveries? I thought it said Summer 2022, but Summer is almost over.

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

n711hk wrote:

Southwest 7M8 N8767M delivered this morning BFI-PHX as WN8500.

I've noticed in the number sequence they skipped 8766. Is that one just delayed? After they delivered 8765 we got 8767, and the airlinerlist source shows that there is an 8768Q which is probably the next one but no 8766. They have all the others from 8752 up and they came roughly in order.

About the retro planes.... are the numbers 871 and 872 going to fit into the sequence after 8770? that would be the most logical.

Bruce wrote:

WN732 wrote:

N8620H and N8619F are still flying around in their Canyon Blue colors, does anyone have an idea on when they will hit the paint shop to get their new special liveries? I thought it said Summer 2022, but Summer is almost over.

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

They are going to repaint each of those to replace Tennessee and Illinois that we lost in 2020. Also two Max 8's are slated to replace the two Retro's. One will be Canyon Blue and one will be Desert Gold.

yoshoward12 wrote:

CVG and GRR are interesting markets to discuss. CVG is covered well by ULCC presence to many of the leisure destinations, as well as business connections. I do think they can support LAS, even other markets as well. Cincy is no pushover, and there still is some demand to go around.

CVG can support WN nonstop service out of DAL with DL having completely dropped DFW-CVG nonstop service (which was discussed over in the Rest of Ohio Aviation Thread at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468521&start=500#p23421899).

AA is currently the only airline serving CVG nonstop from the DFW/DAL market with F9 having also completely dropped DFW-CVG nonstop service in addition to DL.

WN has stronger point-of-sale in the Dallas/Fort Worth market than DL or F9 to support DAL-CVG nonstop service.

CVG also had higher PDEW's from DFW/DAL in Q1 2022 than some of the markets that currently have daily nonstop service out of DAL on WN such as AMA, CHS, HRL, LIT, LBB, MAF, ECP, PNS, SAV, and TUL.

WN would also be able to offer connections through DAL to other destinations in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California, whereas the connecting opportunities that were previously there to BWI/CLT/BDL/PHL/RDU from DL DFW-CVG nonstop flights are no longer there with DL having completely dropped CVG-BWI/CLT/BDL/PHL/RDU nonstop service.

There was an average of 131 passengers/day traveling in each direction between DFW/DAL and CVG on airlines other than AA in 2019.

WN would probably be able to get enough O&D passengers onto DAL-CVG nonstop flights if it adds DAL-CVG nonstop flights with the amount of O&D demand that was previously there to CVG from DFW/DAL on airlines other than AA.

WN732 wrote:

Bruce wrote:

WN732 wrote:

N8620H and N8619F are still flying around in their Canyon Blue colors, does anyone have an idea on when they will hit the paint shop to get their new special liveries? I thought it said Summer 2022, but Summer is almost over.

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

They are going to repaint each of those to replace Tennessee and Illinois that we lost in 2020. Also two Max 8's are slated to replace the two Retro's. One will be Canyon Blue and one will be Desert Gold.

Oh. They should do one for Washington State since they've been there so long and gave Boeing so much business there!

Bruce wrote:

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

A WN plane in a Georgia One livery is long overdue with WN still having a hub at ATL (which was inherited through the WN-FL merger).

Georgia is the only state with a WN hub/focus city that hasn't had a WN state livery.

jplatts wrote:

Bruce wrote:

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

A WN plane in a Georgia One livery is long overdue with WN still having a hub at ATL (which was inherited through the WN-FL merger).

Georgia is the only state with a WN hub/focus city that hasn't had a WN state livery.

They should do. Hawaiian one.

Bruce wrote:

n711hk wrote:

Southwest 7M8 N8767M delivered this morning BFI-PHX as WN8500.

I've noticed in the number sequence they skipped 8766. Is that one just delayed? After they delivered 8765 we got 8767, and the airlinerlist source shows that there is an 8768Q which is probably the next one but no 8766. They have all the others from 8752 up and they came roughly in order.

About the retro planes.... are the numbers 871 and 872 going to fit into the sequence after 8770? that would be the most logical.

WN732 beat me to answering your other questions, but N8766T just hasn't been delivered yet, it hasn't been skipped. Sometimes they get delivered out of order for one reason or another.

As far as the retro jets (871 & 872), your guess is as good as mine. All I know about them is that their wings (with painted winglets) were spotted outside the FAL at Renton. (Posted in the max production/delivery thread)

Wneast wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Bruce wrote:

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

A WN plane in a Georgia One livery is long overdue with WN still having a hub at ATL (which was inherited through the WN-FL merger).

Georgia is the only state with a WN hub/focus city that hasn't had a WN state livery.

They should do. Hawaiian one.

That can wait until after they buy Hawaiian

On that note, it does look like WN is really going after Hawaiian. USA Today posted an article about WN charging only $39 for inter-island flights for the rest of the year.

It pains me to say it LOL but IMO it is time for an Oklahoma One.

KDAL wrote:

Wneast wrote:

jplatts wrote:

A WN plane in a Georgia One livery is long overdue with WN still having a hub at ATL (which was inherited through the WN-FL merger).

Georgia is the only state with a WN hub/focus city that hasn't had a WN state livery.

They should do. Hawaiian one.

That can wait until after they buy Hawaiian

On that note, it does look like WN is really going after Hawaiian. USA Today posted an article about WN charging only $39 for inter-island flights for the rest of the year.

yeah that’s kinda interesting they Trying to dig into Hawaiian ?

KDAL wrote:

Bruce wrote:

n711hk wrote:

Southwest 7M8 N8767M delivered this morning BFI-PHX as WN8500.

I've noticed in the number sequence they skipped 8766. Is that one just delayed? After they delivered 8765 we got 8767, and the airlinerlist source shows that there is an 8768Q which is probably the next one but no 8766. They have all the others from 8752 up and they came roughly in order.

About the retro planes.... are the numbers 871 and 872 going to fit into the sequence after 8770? that would be the most logical.

WN732 beat me to answering your other questions, but N8766T just hasn't been delivered yet, it hasn't been skipped. Sometimes they get delivered out of order for one reason or another.

As far as the retro jets (871 & 872), your guess is as good as mine. All I know about them is that their wings (with painted winglets) were spotted outside the FAL at Renton. (Posted in the max production/delivery thread)

I'm not sure about that either. However, the full registration has already been reserved at the FAA, and they are N871HK and N872CB. I thought that was cool they were able to get '71 in there for 1971.

The latest deliveries have all been ETOPS, so is it safe to say 871 & 872 will be ETOPS birds?

SXDFC wrote:

The latest deliveries have all been ETOPS, so is it safe to say 871 & 872 will be ETOPS birds?

All 737 Max 8 are ETOPS 180 compliant.

Bruce wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

The latest deliveries have all been ETOPS, so is it safe to say 871 & 872 will be ETOPS birds?

All 737 Max 8 are ETOPS 180 compliant.

WN currently has a mix of ETOPS/Non ETOPS birds.

Bruce wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

The latest deliveries have all been ETOPS, so is it safe to say 871 & 872 will be ETOPS birds?

All 737 Max 8 are ETOPS 180 compliant.

No, all of Southwest's 7M8s are not ETOPS equipped

INFINITI329 wrote:

Bruce wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

The latest deliveries have all been ETOPS, so is it safe to say 871 & 872 will be ETOPS birds?

All 737 Max 8 are ETOPS 180 compliant.

No, all of Southwest's 7M8s are not ETOPS equipped

I think it would be more precise to say that *some* of the max8s aren’t equipped for etops. The 8700 series birds are etops…the 8800 series birds are not.

N8768Q is being delivered today……it was scheduled for September but was moved up

Flush with cash, Southwest announced it will prepay and redeem $1.23 billion in notes originally due Q3 2023.

https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/st ... -41374520/

jplatts wrote:

Bruce wrote:

What special liveries? Are they doing a new state?

A WN plane in a Georgia One livery is long overdue with WN still having a hub at ATL (which was inherited through the WN-FL merger).

Georgia is the only state with a WN hub/focus city that hasn't had a WN state livery.

With how little they seem to care about the ATL hub? Doubt it. Spent ground time in ATL this week, the entire end of the concourse..gates 1-8?…all sat empty with 2 or 3 afternoon departures scheduled. Get the sense they have little desire to even be anything more then a small focus city let alone a full on base.

N8620H arrived in GEG last night for paint, will emerge early Sept as the new Illinois One. N8619F is likely getting painted into "Tennessee One" next month.

WN continues to give a fat middle finger to their second non-Texas state served with no Oklahoma One plane.

AWACSooner wrote:

WN continues to give a fat middle finger to their second non-Texas state served with no Oklahoma One plane.

Id love to see a "Oklahoma One" plane.

WN keeps talks going with PVU and PAE. Will be interesting to see if anything happens.

SXDFC wrote:

AWACSooner wrote:

WN continues to give a fat middle finger to their second non-Texas state served with no Oklahoma One plane.

Id love to see a "Oklahoma One" plane.

Has there really never been one? I don't remember ever seeing one or even a photo, but didn't really think about it until now. What gives??

Second non-Texas state? Well that is really an un-important fact. Heck, they don't even have 40 flights a day out of OK with OKC and TUL. Even PA has more. I'd see a NY One and/or HI One before any thought of an Okie One.

sprxUSA wrote:

Second non-Texas state? Well that is really an un-important fact. Heck, they don't even have 40 flights a day out of OK with OKC and TUL. Even PA has more. I'd see a NY One and/or HI One before any thought of an Okie One.

Right after they started to MSY, they started OKC and TUL...and ABQ the next day. Two of the three states served have their own planes...

AWACSooner wrote:

sprxUSA wrote:

Second non-Texas state? Well that is really an un-important fact. Heck, they don't even have 40 flights a day out of OK with OKC and TUL. Even PA has more. I'd see a NY One and/or HI One before any thought of an Okie One.

Right after they started to MSY, they started OKC and TUL...and ABQ the next day. Two of the three states served have their own planes...

I’m not defending it, however, I think that when New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada One came online after Lonestar One, I would guess that it was more about branding Southwest the “Airline of the Southwest”. I’m not sure that they thought Oklahoma necessarily fit into that narrative at the time. Now that Florida, Louisiana, Tennessee, Illinois, Colorado and Missouri all have their own state flag Airplanes; I think it’s past time for an Oklahoma One. I would hope we see one in the next few years along with Georgia One.

Too bad they didn't save a 737-200. They could call it Okie Smokie.

Chemist wrote:

Too bad they didn't save a 737-200. They could call it Okie Smokie.

They saved a nose of one, we can call it Okie Nosy"

mesasurf wrote:

WN keeps talks going with PVU and PAE. Will be interesting to see if anything happens.

Hmmmm interesting…any others in the rumor mill?

I’ve been listening to “The SWAPA Number” podcast which is put out by the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. This week’s episode (Monday, August 22nd - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-the- ... -49070009/) focused on Bob Jordan, labor-management relations, and culture. Unsurprisingly Casey Murray (SWAPA leader) did not hold back. While I know union-management relations are always a bit tenuous, Murray had some good points. One thing that stood out was his commentary on the union’s decision to hold an informational picket on September 21st at a Southwest “culture party” in Nashville. Murray stated when asked if he was “attacking the Southwest culture” that he felt that it’s actually current Southwest leadership that is attacking culture and has been “for years.” He mentioned that many front line employees who “are tasked with producing revenue” are “not feeling the culture” at the moment. He went on to say that 75% of employees who are represented by a union, association, or organization currently have open contracts. He also mentioned that Southwest is now a much more complex airline (network wise) than it was just 10 years ago, but management seems to keep trying to run the airline and schedule crews like they did 20 years ago when the operation was much smaller and simpler. Back in June, over 1,000 Southwest pilots picketed at Love Field.

I grew up around San Antonio, now live in Oak Lawn right near Love Field, and used to fly Southwest frequently from 2001 until a few years ago. I still fly them every once in a while. The last couple of times I flew them, I could definitely tell a difference. Not only have I run in to more grumpy employees, but even the “nice” ones aren’t quite as nice as they used to be. This showed even before the pandemic started. I also notice that not only does Southwest have a problem recovering from IROPS, their front line employees don’t seem to have the tools to deal with them.

Southwest used to pride itself on it’s culture which it claimed came from taking care of it’s employees so that they would take care of customers. It seems that is breaking down. Most industry commentators are really hesitant to say anything negative about Southwest because of their PAST performance. However, at one point Sears & Roebuck was the king of retail and GM was the undisputed #1 automaker. How did Southwest get where they are? Is current management asleep at the switch and too stuck in their old ways? What needs to be done to get the employee morale back where it needs to be?

AMALH747430 wrote:

I’ve been listening to “The SWAPA Number” podcast which is put out by the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. This week’s episode (Monday, August 22nd - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-the- ... -49070009/) focused on Bob Jordan, labor-management relations, and culture. Unsurprisingly Casey Murray (SWAPA leader) did not hold back. While I know union-management relations are always a bit tenuous, Murray had some good points. One thing that stood out was his commentary on the union’s decision to hold an informational picket on September 21st at a Southwest “culture party” in Nashville. Murray stated when asked if he was “attacking the Southwest culture” that he felt that it’s actually current Southwest leadership that is attacking culture and has been “for years.” He mentioned that many front line employees who “are tasked with producing revenue” are “not feeling the culture” at the moment. He went on to say that 75% of employees who are represented by a union, association, or organization currently have open contracts. He also mentioned that Southwest is now a much more complex airline (network wise) than it was just 10 years ago, but management seems to keep trying to run the airline and schedule crews like they did 20 years ago when the operation was much smaller and simpler. Back in June, over 1,000 Southwest pilots picketed at Love Field.

I grew up around San Antonio, now live in Oak Lawn right near Love Field, and used to fly Southwest frequently from 2001 until a few years ago. I still fly them every once in a while. The last couple of times I flew them, I could definitely tell a difference. Not only have I run in to more grumpy employees, but even the “nice” ones aren’t quite as nice as they used to be. This showed even before the pandemic started. I also notice that not only does Southwest have a problem recovering from IROPS, their front line employees don’t seem to have the tools to deal with them.

Southwest used to pride itself on it’s culture which it claimed came from taking care of it’s employees so that they would take care of customers. It seems that is breaking down. Most industry commentators are really hesitant to say anything negative about Southwest because of their PAST performance. However, at one point Sears & Roebuck was the king of retail and GM was the undisputed #1 automaker. How did Southwest get where they are? Is current management asleep at the switch and too stuck in their old ways? What needs to be done to get the employee morale back where it needs to be?

The focus switched from the employees to the shareholders. The culture lingo used to be “if you take care of your employees, they’ll take care of your customers” or something to that effect. Now, customer service, operations, and ramp staff are constantly being assigned mandatory overtime (zero work-life balance) and flight attendants and pilots are regularly left with short overnights and nights without hotel rooms and flying in to days off during many irrops events.

Flflyer83 wrote:

AMALH747430 wrote:

I’ve been listening to “The SWAPA Number” podcast which is put out by the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. This week’s episode (Monday, August 22nd - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-the- ... -49070009/) focused on Bob Jordan, labor-management relations, and culture. Unsurprisingly Casey Murray (SWAPA leader) did not hold back. While I know union-management relations are always a bit tenuous, Murray had some good points. One thing that stood out was his commentary on the union’s decision to hold an informational picket on September 21st at a Southwest “culture party” in Nashville. Murray stated when asked if he was “attacking the Southwest culture” that he felt that it’s actually current Southwest leadership that is attacking culture and has been “for years.” He mentioned that many front line employees who “are tasked with producing revenue” are “not feeling the culture” at the moment. He went on to say that 75% of employees who are represented by a union, association, or organization currently have open contracts. He also mentioned that Southwest is now a much more complex airline (network wise) than it was just 10 years ago, but management seems to keep trying to run the airline and schedule crews like they did 20 years ago when the operation was much smaller and simpler. Back in June, over 1,000 Southwest pilots picketed at Love Field.

I grew up around San Antonio, now live in Oak Lawn right near Love Field, and used to fly Southwest frequently from 2001 until a few years ago. I still fly them every once in a while. The last couple of times I flew them, I could definitely tell a difference. Not only have I run in to more grumpy employees, but even the “nice” ones aren’t quite as nice as they used to be. This showed even before the pandemic started. I also notice that not only does Southwest have a problem recovering from IROPS, their front line employees don’t seem to have the tools to deal with them.

Southwest used to pride itself on it’s culture which it claimed came from taking care of it’s employees so that they would take care of customers. It seems that is breaking down. Most industry commentators are really hesitant to say anything negative about Southwest because of their PAST performance. However, at one point Sears & Roebuck was the king of retail and GM was the undisputed #1 automaker. How did Southwest get where they are? Is current management asleep at the switch and too stuck in their old ways? What needs to be done to get the employee morale back where it needs to be?

The focus switched from the employees to the shareholders. The culture lingo used to be “if you take care of your employees, they’ll take care of your customers” or something to that effect. Now, customer service, operations, and ramp staff are constantly being assigned mandatory overtime (zero work-life balance) and flight attendants and pilots are regularly left with short overnights and nights without hotel rooms and flying in to days off during many irrops events.

It’s not even the mandatory overtime. That’s always been a thing. What’s changed is the attitudes and priorities of so-called station “Leadership”. At the end of my last shift at my previous station before transferring I turned in my SIDA badge to the supervisors. I hand it over and one goes “Oh! Wait before you go. Sign this.” They hand me a letter to sign acknowledging a no-punch. That’s how my 14 years at that station ended.

AMALH747430 wrote:

I’ve been listening to “The SWAPA Number” podcast which is put out by the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. This week’s episode (Monday, August 22nd - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-the- ... -49070009/) focused on Bob Jordan, labor-management relations, and culture. Unsurprisingly Casey Murray (SWAPA leader) did not hold back. While I know union-management relations are always a bit tenuous, Murray had some good points. One thing that stood out was his commentary on the union’s decision to hold an informational picket on September 21st at a Southwest “culture party” in Nashville. Murray stated when asked if he was “attacking the Southwest culture” that he felt that it’s actually current Southwest leadership that is attacking culture and has been “for years.” He mentioned that many front line employees who “are tasked with producing revenue” are “not feeling the culture” at the moment. He went on to say that 75% of employees who are represented by a union, association, or organization currently have open contracts. He also mentioned that Southwest is now a much more complex airline (network wise) than it was just 10 years ago, but management seems to keep trying to run the airline and schedule crews like they did 20 years ago when the operation was much smaller and simpler. Back in June, over 1,000 Southwest pilots picketed at Love Field.

I grew up around San Antonio, now live in Oak Lawn right near Love Field, and used to fly Southwest frequently from 2001 until a few years ago. I still fly them every once in a while. The last couple of times I flew them, I could definitely tell a difference. Not only have I run in to more grumpy employees, but even the “nice” ones aren’t quite as nice as they used to be. This showed even before the pandemic started. I also notice that not only does Southwest have a problem recovering from IROPS, their front line employees don’t seem to have the tools to deal with them.

Southwest used to pride itself on it’s culture which it claimed came from taking care of it’s employees so that they would take care of customers. It seems that is breaking down. Most industry commentators are really hesitant to say anything negative about Southwest because of their PAST performance. However, at one point Sears & Roebuck was the king of retail and GM was the undisputed #1 automaker. How did Southwest get where they are? Is current management asleep at the switch and too stuck in their old ways? What needs to be done to get the employee morale back where it needs to be?

that culture you're talking about might have been possible on a 70-80 plane 1 hub outfit. But? WN is FAR and away past that. They're pretty far flung and subject to little fiefdoms where local management is feeling the heat from HDQ and passing it on. I worked at United and things were different in SFO than ORD or NYC. The Management was different and many times we had clashes between stations. On even something simple as Aircraft tooling. I was at SFO and ORD needed engine change tooling as they had a couple of out of service airplanes working engine changes. was told to send them one of our tool kits which I did. they got our kit and ppromptly decided to keep our kit that I had signed fior. the argument that came about had me flying back to ORD to retrieve our kit or else I was responsible for it's cost. I flew back there retrieved our kit and return it to get off the hook for the $23K it would have vost me. I never again EVER signed ANY request for another station to borrow ANYTHING that I had to sign my name to. My manager signed HIS name to let then borrow some toolig and got it back battered up and had to replace it out of the station budget. something I didn't have the option to do. So? The bigger they get? the fewer " Fuzzies" they;ll be feeling. And that goes for just about any company.

Silver1SWA wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

AMALH747430 wrote:

I’ve been listening to “The SWAPA Number” podcast which is put out by the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. This week’s episode (Monday, August 22nd - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-the- ... -49070009/) focused on Bob Jordan, labor-management relations, and culture. Unsurprisingly Casey Murray (SWAPA leader) did not hold back. While I know union-management relations are always a bit tenuous, Murray had some good points. One thing that stood out was his commentary on the union’s decision to hold an informational picket on September 21st at a Southwest “culture party” in Nashville. Murray stated when asked if he was “attacking the Southwest culture” that he felt that it’s actually current Southwest leadership that is attacking culture and has been “for years.” He mentioned that many front line employees who “are tasked with producing revenue” are “not feeling the culture” at the moment. He went on to say that 75% of employees who are represented by a union, association, or organization currently have open contracts. He also mentioned that Southwest is now a much more complex airline (network wise) than it was just 10 years ago, but management seems to keep trying to run the airline and schedule crews like they did 20 years ago when the operation was much smaller and simpler. Back in June, over 1,000 Southwest pilots picketed at Love Field.

I grew up around San Antonio, now live in Oak Lawn right near Love Field, and used to fly Southwest frequently from 2001 until a few years ago. I still fly them every once in a while. The last couple of times I flew them, I could definitely tell a difference. Not only have I run in to more grumpy employees, but even the “nice” ones aren’t quite as nice as they used to be. This showed even before the pandemic started. I also notice that not only does Southwest have a problem recovering from IROPS, their front line employees don’t seem to have the tools to deal with them.

Southwest used to pride itself on it’s culture which it claimed came from taking care of it’s employees so that they would take care of customers. It seems that is breaking down. Most industry commentators are really hesitant to say anything negative about Southwest because of their PAST performance. However, at one point Sears & Roebuck was the king of retail and GM was the undisputed #1 automaker. How did Southwest get where they are? Is current management asleep at the switch and too stuck in their old ways? What needs to be done to get the employee morale back where it needs to be?

The focus switched from the employees to the shareholders. The culture lingo used to be “if you take care of your employees, they’ll take care of your customers” or something to that effect. Now, customer service, operations, and ramp staff are constantly being assigned mandatory overtime (zero work-life balance) and flight attendants and pilots are regularly left with short overnights and nights without hotel rooms and flying in to days off during many irrops events.

It’s not even the mandatory overtime. That’s always been a thing. What’s changed is the attitudes and priorities of so-called station “Leadership”. At the end of my last shift at my previous station before transferring I turned in my SIDA badge to the supervisors. I hand it over and one goes “Oh! Wait before you go. Sign this.” They hand me a letter to sign acknowledging a no-punch. That’s how my 14 years at that station ended.

How did you guys agree to Manditiry Overtime in the first place? If the overtime is available? we had a sign up sheet wnd it was voluntary. and even in Maintenance control they at least asked you before you got "voluntold". But? At $114/HR? (Tripple Time) you'd be mad maybe the first hour of the 12 hour shift. 1111111after that? your greasy palms would be rubbing together trying to figure out what your next paycheck might look like.. I had a bus=ddy who went out on an Aircraft recovery for another airline and came home after a week on the clock to a $23K two week paycheck and got hacked off because if the taxes they withheld and his takehome was $23K so he made close to $31K Gross pay as he wasn't married. Ther following week he bought a brand new Fully Loaded Camaro Z28. and traded in his BMW 320i and paid Cash for the balance . that heap came to $51K. alkl you could say? Go getem Tiger!

PAINT UPDATES

I have checked through aircraft which spend the required time for new livery in GEG.

Also noted were aircraft with a current longer time at other locations for aircraft in the paint sequence - is it possible that a trip to GEG [or repaint elsewhere] is included whilst out of service / in maintenance?

At GEG now - N7737E.
At Miami now or recently - N260WN, N261WN, N7732A.
At or visited El Salvador Intl - N256WN, N259WN, N7737A.

strfyr51 wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

The focus switched from the employees to the shareholders. The culture lingo used to be “if you take care of your employees, they’ll take care of your customers” or something to that effect. Now, customer service, operations, and ramp staff are constantly being assigned mandatory overtime (zero work-life balance) and flight attendants and pilots are regularly left with short overnights and nights without hotel rooms and flying in to days off during many irrops events.

It’s not even the mandatory overtime. That’s always been a thing. What’s changed is the attitudes and priorities of so-called station “Leadership”. At the end of my last shift at my previous station before transferring I turned in my SIDA badge to the supervisors. I hand it over and one goes “Oh! Wait before you go. Sign this.” They hand me a letter to sign acknowledging a no-punch. That’s how my 14 years at that station ended.

How did you guys agree to Manditiry Overtime in the first place? If the overtime is available? we had a sign up sheet wnd it was voluntary. and even in Maintenance control they at least asked you before you got "voluntold". But? At $114/HR? (Tripple Time) you'd be mad maybe the first hour of the 12 hour shift. 1111111after that? your greasy palms would be rubbing together trying to figure out what your next paycheck might look like.. I had a bus=ddy who went out on an Aircraft recovery for another airline and came home after a week on the clock to a $23K two week paycheck and got hacked off because if the taxes they withheld and his takehome was $23K so he made close to $31K Gross pay as he wasn't married. Ther following week he bought a brand new Fully Loaded Camaro Z28. and traded in his BMW 320i and paid Cash for the balance . that heap came to $51K. alkl you could say? Go getem Tiger!

Not sure how or when it became a thing but it’s been in there since before my time. Overtime starts out as voluntary with a daily sign up sheet. Whatever isn’t covered by volunteers is covered with mandatory overtime and issued in order of one’s status (first day off, regular workday, second day off and so on) and in reverse seniority. A couple contracts ago language was modified to make all mandatory OT as doubletime. So at least there’s that. This is for ramp. Each workgroup has different ways of handling it.