Southwest Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

ericm2031 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:49 am

avi8 wrote:
Seems like WN has been rather quiet about network restoration for next year. I assume the delay of the MAX 7 is probably one of the reasons. Is it me, or is WN always struggling to have the fleet capacity to do what they want to do? It seems they are just unlucky in dealing with the downsides of having just one type of fleet; remember when they had to retire a huge amount of 737-300/500s? Now it's the MAX that's causing these delays since 2019.

I think delivery delays and pilot staffing are bigger issues than the MAX 7 certification. I believe they’re taking MAX 8s at the same rate and numbers that they would have been taking the MAX 7s, but Boeing is struggling to keep up/ramp up due to supply chain issues and their other issues. They’re also retiring planes they could have extended the lives of and aren’t, probably for multiple reasons (heavy Mx costs, lack of pilots, etc). They’ve also spread themselves thin as they have almost 20 new stations they’ve added that they didn’t have before the pandemic, so that’s pulling resources that could have been used to restore other parts of the network.

KLMatSJC · Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:12 am

n471wn wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
n471wn wrote:
This last week we said goodbye to N724SW and N725SW who are meeting their maker in BHM. The N7XXSW birds are quickly disappearing.

Just flew 725 on my last trip. It still flew well and had relatively few problems for being so old. I saw that it was being retired at the end of the month though.

It is at BHM now. N727SW is scheduled to be retired at end of month.

Heard it clipped another Southwest winglet in DEN this morning........

SXDFC · Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am

res77W wrote:
n471wn wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Just flew 725 on my last trip. It still flew well and had relatively few problems for being so old. I saw that it was being retired at the end of the month though.

It is at BHM now. N727SW is scheduled to be retired at end of month.

Will we see a new Nevada One 800?

-Rowen

Yes you will.From what I’ve heard, any -700 specialty plane that’s retired will make its way onto an -800 due for paint around that time.

SXDFC · Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am

res77W wrote:
n471wn wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Just flew 725 on my last trip. It still flew well and had relatively few problems for being so old. I saw that it was being retired at the end of the month though.

It is at BHM now. N727SW is scheduled to be retired at end of month.

Will we see a new Nevada One 800?

-Rowen

Yes you will.From what I’ve heard, any -700 specialty plane that’s retired will make its way onto an -800 due for paint around that time.

oldannyboy · Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:23 am

orlandocfi wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Not sure why people think this was a nice livery. Those colors were goddam awful. Rather than a golden hew all I always got to see was some musty mustardy mucus yellow with ugly orange stripes.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting it is a beautiful scheme…it’s nothing more than a bit of nostalgia like the other airline retro schemes. Maybe we can see the return of club seating for a bit more nostalgia? I always enjoyed trying to avoid making uncomfortable eye or foot contact with people seated directly across from me!

Club seating was amazing for flirting with strangers!

sonnyr23 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:28 pm

" I'll paint any plane for $69.95 , Earl Scheib ! "
I wonder when a Hawaii Plane will be unveiled.

WN732 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:46 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Not sure why people think this was a nice livery. Those colors were goddam awful. Rather than a golden hew all I always got to see was some musty mustardy mucus yellow with ugly orange stripes.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting it is a beautiful scheme…it’s nothing more than a bit of nostalgia like the other airline retro schemes. Maybe we can see the return of club seating for a bit more nostalgia? I always enjoyed trying to avoid making uncomfortable eye or foot contact with people seated directly across from me!

Club seating was amazing for flirting with strangers!

Flirting with strangers face to face is a skill that many lack today. It's all digital now.

Maybe that's the whole problem, the club seats went away and so did people's overall flirting ability. Cause ---> Effect

mga707 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:15 pm

sonnyr23 wrote:
" I'll paint any plane for $69.95 , Earl Scheib ! "
I wonder when a Hawaii Plane will be unveiled.

I had my first car ('69 Plymouth Satellite) repainted by Earl in 1976--I think it was $59.95! Memories...

INFINITI329 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:33 pm

It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

sonnyr23 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:03 pm

With the Holidays here before you know it they retired a number of 700's.

Flflyer83 · Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:49 pm

sonnyr23 wrote:
With the Holidays here before you know it they retired a number of 700's.

They don’t have the staff to reliably operate them. The fleet, as it is, is not being fully utilized due to continued staffing issues. You can have 3,792 planes but if you only have the staff to reliably operate 726 of them, then that’s all that you’re going to get out of it. Why carry more planes, and associated costs, for them to be sitting around?

av8tiongeek · Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:59 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

trnswrld · Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:44 pm

I dunno, looks bad ass to me and I was also never a huge fan of the mustard livery. All you guys nitpicking window frames or painted flap fairings.....who really cares, it doesn't have to be an exact replica. Just how AA didn't do exact replicas of their retrojets.

Silver1SWA · Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:50 pm

trnswrld wrote:
I dunno, looks bad ass to me and I was also never a huge fan of the mustard livery. All you guys nitpicking window frames or painted flap fairings.....who really cares, it doesn't have to be an exact replica. Just how AA didn't do exact replicas of their retrojets.

Uh, we care which is why we are discussing it. We are just airplane geeks who are offering opinions on what would make it better.

SWADawg · Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:11 pm

av8tiongeek wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

orlandocfi · Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:55 pm

SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Agreed. This could be a significant challenge that WN management will need to swiftly navigate. Let’s see if they have their wits about them. I hear a bunch of 717s may be coming available around 2025 lol.

chrisair · Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:05 pm

oldannyboy wrote:

Club seating was amazing for flirting with strangers!

Club seating was also amazing for sleeping on the floor! Heaps of room on empty flights to sleep! Mattress out of the pillows, cover them with the blanket and wake me up when it's time to land!

jplatts wrote:
N500WR

Have the rampers finally figured out that 500WR is an 800?

questions · Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:37 pm

Getting rid of the orange on the current livery was a mistake. A yellow, red, orange tail would have looked great.

jplatts · Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:47 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Agreed. This could be a significant challenge that WN management will need to swiftly navigate. Let’s see if they have their wits about them. I hear a bunch of 717s may be coming available around 2025 lol.

WN can likely pick up some used 737-700's from airlines such as KL, SK, DT, and TB that are planning on retiring their remaining 737-700's.

Most of the remaining KL, SK, DT, and TB 737-700's are also less than 17 years old, whereas WN still has plenty of 737-700's remaining that are more than 17 years old.

KL, SK, and DT also currently don't have any 737 MAX planes on order.

nine4nine · Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:48 pm

I’d just say bring back the Desert Gold livery. It’s as iconic as Coca Cola and McDonalds and sure the hell looked bad ass!

I used to work on these beauties in the 90’s and early 2000’s and absolutely hated the Canyon Blue when it rolled out. The Hot Dog On A Stick livery and billboard titles is just plain awful and cheap looking.

With some some companies like Burger King now rebranding and reverting back to its original classic iconic logo and color schemes one can hope.

N383SW · Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:36 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Agreed. This could be a significant challenge that WN management will need to swiftly navigate. Let’s see if they have their wits about them. I hear a bunch of 717s may be coming available around 2025 lol.

Barring something significant, Delta decided to keep the 717’s flying past 2025 so there’s that!

lat41 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:10 am

jplatts wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Sadly this may be the kick WN needed to add more FLL service.

They’ve invested tons in VPS, SRQ, MIA, and other Florida airports the past few years, and basically nothing towards FLL.

Here are the Q2 2022 PDEW's to MIA/FLL from the top markets in the contiguous U.S. that don't currently have any WN nonstop service to FLL:
LGA/JFK/EWR/HPN-MIA/FLL - 9057 (excludes ISP-MIA/FLL, SWF-MIA/FLL, and TTN-MIA/FLL)
LAX/BUR/LGB/ONT/SNA-MIA/FLL - 2076
BOS-MIA/FLL - 2024 (excludes PVD-MIA/FLL and MHT-MIA/FLL)
LAS-MIA/FLL - 978
SFO/OAK/SJC-MIA/FLL - 890
CLT-MIA/FLL - 712
CLE-MIA/FLL - 566 (excludes CAK-MIA/FLL)
SEA-MIA/FLL - 478
SLC-MIA/FLL - 382
CVG-MIA/FLL - 378
SAN-MIA/FLL - 371
RIC-MIA/FLL - 297
JAX-MIA/FLL - 260
ORF-MIA/FLL - 216
SDF-MIA/FLL - 213
MEM-MIA/FLL - 209
CHS-MIA/FLL - 192
PDX-MIA/FLL - 158
AVL-MIA/FLL - 156 (AVL not currently served by WN)
TYS-MIA/FLL - 151 (TYS not currently served by WN)

Most of the above markets already have plenty of nonstop flights to MIA/FLL on other airlines.

There are a few resumptions that WN could make out of FLL such as FLL-BOS/CVG/LAS/LGA with WN having operated nonstop service to FLL from BOS/CVG/LAS/LGA prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

I beleive that if WN served FLL-BOS nonstop in the past, it was only for a period and Sat. only. WN did often schedule 2 n/s FLL-PVD and 3 on many weekends before WN shrunk FLL down from 200+departures. PVD, BOS and MHT are not co-terminals so correct to separate the data.

orlandocfi · Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:51 am

N383SW wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Agreed. This could be a significant challenge that WN management will need to swiftly navigate. Let’s see if they have their wits about them. I hear a bunch of 717s may be coming available around 2025 lol.

Barring something significant, Delta decided to keep the 717’s flying past 2025 so there’s that!

Oh darn the luck. Suddenly the C919 is looking good!

questions · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:20 am

FARmd90 wrote:
As the title suggests. Southwest has painted a yet to be delivered Max8 in their classic gold colors. Looks good!

https://avgeekery.com/southwest-classic ... vPb7eSqnyk

From the article:

Southwest has plans to paint a single Boeing 737-MAX8 in the ‘classic’ scheme dedicated to Herb Kelleher. Southwest will also introduce another Boeing 737-MAX8 in the ‘Canyon Blue’ scheme dedicated to Colleen Barrett at a later date.

USAirKid · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:40 am

SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

I know Boeing has said they'll scrap the 7 & 10, but that probably is a negotiating tactic. I'm kinda curious if they do go and certify it as a new type.. but then turn around and upgrade the 8 & 9 to be the same type at the 7 & 10. This'd be a pain, though in theory they could also re-certify the old 8s & 9s under the new common 7, 8, 9, 10 type certificate. (United's re-certification of CRJ-700s as CRJ-550s comes to mind.)

WN732 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:07 am

USAirKid wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

I know Boeing has said they'll scrap the 7 & 10, but that probably is a negotiating tactic. I'm kinda curious if they do go and certify it as a new type.. but then turn around and upgrade the 8 & 9 to be the same type at the 7 & 10. This'd be a pain, though in theory they could also re-certify the old 8s & 9s under the new common 7, 8, 9, 10 type certificate. (United's re-certification of CRJ-700s as CRJ-550s comes to mind.)

The CRJ is different because there's no difference in the cockpit for the pilots.

Don't forget though, WN signed a contract with Boeing all the way back in 2011 that Boeing must pay WN $1,000,000 for each frame if the MAX required a different type rating. Not sure if this clause would still stand as technically it is not right now, but I'd bet WN's attorneys are already chomping on that.

USAirKid · Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:14 am

WN732 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

I know Boeing has said they'll scrap the 7 & 10, but that probably is a negotiating tactic. I'm kinda curious if they do go and certify it as a new type.. but then turn around and upgrade the 8 & 9 to be the same type at the 7 & 10. This'd be a pain, though in theory they could also re-certify the old 8s & 9s under the new common 7, 8, 9, 10 type certificate. (United's re-certification of CRJ-700s as CRJ-550s comes to mind.)

The CRJ is different because there's no difference in the cockpit for the pilots.

Don't forget though, WN signed a contract with Boeing all the way back in 2011 that Boeing must pay WN $1,000,000 for each frame if the MAX required a different type rating. Not sure if this clause would still stand as technically it is not right now, but I'd bet WN's attorneys are already chomping on that.

AFAIK, it wasn't if the MAX required a different type rating, it was if the MAX required simulator training for NG rated pilots. But the effect would be the same in this instance.

OAHU747 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:29 am

Has any other airline done a retro livery that wasn't exactly like the original?

FlySail2015 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:35 am

OAHU747 wrote:
Has any other airline done a retro livery that wasn't exactly like the original?

AA's got some retrojets aren't identical to their original inspirations. For example, they used their normal grey base color for their TWA, Reno Air, and Air Cal retros, despite all tose airlines using white in their original colors. Interestingly, AA did use the "real" colors for their America West, Piedmont, PSA, Allegheny, and US Airways retros. Makes you wonder why TWA's, Reno's, and Air Cal's were done with half-effort, seeing that the others are pretty detail-oriented.

Then you've got JetBlue, who has a retro livery that never existed. Although I think it's a cool concept!

sonnyr23 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:58 am

Definitely throws a monkey wrench in Southwest's long term planning.

oldannyboy · Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:51 am

OAHU747 wrote:
Has any other airline done a retro livery that wasn't exactly like the original?

Yes, in actual fact most retros are a simple adaptation of the original olden design, and hardly ever an exact reincarnation.

RyanairGuru · Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:12 am

FlySail2015 wrote:

AA's got some retrojets aren't identical to their original inspirations. For example, they used their normal grey base color for their TWA, Reno Air, and Air Cal retros, despite all tose airlines using white in their original colors. Interestingly, AA did use the "real" colors for their America West, Piedmont, PSA, Allegheny, and US Airways retros. Makes you wonder why TWA's, Reno's, and Air Cal's were done with half-effort, seeing that the others are pretty detail-oriented.

AA really dropped the ball on the post-merger retro jets. US Airways put a lot of effort into their retro jets before the merger. It’s a small detail, but the US Airways titles and the flag logo were in a color that blended with the retro brand. Overall the image was very well put together and quite authentic. After the merger, they expanded the concept to legacy AA, but with none of the effort. The L-US aircraft were already in their respective color schemes so just kept those, with the American titles and flight logo added, but the L-AA aircraft received the minimum effort and are really awful.

jplatts · Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:13 pm

There are some stations that don't currently have daily nonstop service to DEN on WN that have enough demand for daily WN nonstop service to DEN such as ALB, BDL, CLT, CVG, GRR, JAX, ORF, PNS, and RIC.

Does WN have enough planes and pilots to accommodate 9 additional daily departures out of DEN? How soon can WN get daily nonstop flights to ALB/BDL/CLT/CVG/GRR/JAX/ORF/PNS/RIC back into WN flight schedules?

airman99o · Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:56 pm

Air Canada retro 220 is not like the original look from the past. Tail design is different from how it was on the fleets back in " TCA " days

WN732 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:46 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are some stations that don't currently have daily nonstop service to DEN on WN that have enough demand for daily WN nonstop service to DEN such as ALB, BDL, CLT, CVG, GRR, JAX, ORF, PNS, and RIC.

Does WN have enough planes and pilots to accommodate 9 additional daily departures out of DEN? How soon can WN get daily nonstop flights to ALB/BDL/CLT/CVG/GRR/JAX/ORF/PNS/RIC back into WN flight schedules?

Possibly with RSW getting cut like a juicy steak at Ruth's Chris. How long those cuts will last remain to be seen though.

Jshank83 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:21 pm

jplatts wrote:

How soon can WN get daily nonstop flights to ALB/BDL/CLT/CVG/GRR/JAX/ORF/PNS/RIC back into WN flight schedules?

Who says they want to fly them?

CrewBunk · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm

airman99o wrote:
Air Canada retro 220 is not like the original look from the past. Tail design is different from how it was on the fleets back in " TCA " days

Air Canada’s retro schemes on the A319 and A220 were more of a combination of several TCA versions over the years from 1937 to 1964. In 1997 when it first appeared, it was an anniversary celebration that evolved into a retro scheme.

The A220 is the latest evolution.

malev2012 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are some stations that don't currently have daily nonstop service to DEN on WN that have enough demand for daily WN nonstop service to DEN such as ALB, BDL, CLT, CVG, GRR, JAX, ORF, PNS, and RIC.

Does WN have enough planes and pilots to accommodate 9 additional daily departures out of DEN? How soon can WN get daily nonstop flights to ALB/BDL/CLT/CVG/GRR/JAX/ORF/PNS/RIC back into WN flight schedules?

Without the influx of MAX 7 not sure they have the frames to fly those routes.

sonnyr23 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:55 pm

I think that before the Pandemic there was DEN to JAX , DEN to CLT , and DEN to GRR non stop but hasn't returned since. Hopefully in time those flights will return.

sprxUSA · Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:58 pm

There were GRR DEN NS prior to last schedule change for summer travel.

sonnyr23 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm

Thanks. DEN - GRR could be seasonal.

jplatts · Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:04 pm

Here is the current breakdown of WN service out of SNA on 4/10/2023 (60 daily departures):
2x AUS, 1x MDW, 1x DAL, 6x DEN, 1x HOU, 10x LAS, 1x SJD, 1x BNA, 8x OAK, 8x PHX, 1x PVR, 9x SMF, 1x SLC, 10x SJC

WN has been allocated 44 daily departure slots at SNA for 2023 according to the discussion at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1477495&p=23496563#p23496563.

WN will likely have to drop some of the SNA flights from its flight schedules with WN losing slots at SNA in 2023, and WN has had to drop some SNA flights from WN flight schedules in the past.

planecane · Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:21 pm

SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
It seems as every day goes by the need for the Max 7s grow more and more

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Just because it isn't part of this bill doesn't mean it still can't be extended. It can be done as a standalone bill or part of another bill during the lame duck congress period and can still be extended when the new congress is sworn in next year.

Also, why would Southwest be against having a MAX family member with a different type rating (with common parts) but be perfectly OK with a completely different aircraft from a different manufacturer with a different type rating?

If Boeing does get forced into the CAS change for the MAX 7 and MAX 10 then I would imagine that they will offer a retrofit into the MAX 8 to make them common again anyway. Don't forget, if Boeing does make the change that is in the current law they can happily design more 737 variants for another 100 years.

SWADawg · Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:41 pm

planecane wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:

Yes and now it seems the "extension" is not included in the defense bill.

"A U.S. Senate amendment to extend a December deadline for Boeing Co (BA.N) to win regulatory approval for the 737 MAX 7 and MAX 10 jetliners is not part of the latest version of an annual defense bill, according to sources and documents seen by Reuters."

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-10-11/

This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Just because it isn't part of this bill doesn't mean it still can't be extended. It can be done as a standalone bill or part of another bill during the lame duck congress period and can still be extended when the new congress is sworn in next year.

Also, why would Southwest be against having a MAX family member with a different type rating (with common parts) but be perfectly OK with a completely different aircraft from a different manufacturer with a different type rating?

If Boeing does get forced into the CAS change for the MAX 7 and MAX 10 then I would imagine that they will offer a retrofit into the MAX 8 to make them common again anyway. Don't forget, if Boeing does make the change that is in the current law they can happily design more 737 variants for another 100 years.

Absolutely. All of those things could happen. Boeing is on record as saying that if they don’t get an extension of the current certification requirements, they would probably be forced to cancel both variants. Why would they say such a thing? Maybe they’ve had conversations with various Airlines including Southwest, and they discovered that none of the Airlines are interested in a sub variant of the same family of airplanes that requires a separate type rating. So, if Boeing decides to cancel these two variants rather than put a CAS system on them, then Southwest will have no choice but to look for a different airframe from a different OEM. It would also stall Southwest’s planned growth for probably at least 3-5 years minimum until they could get the new airframe on property.

planecane · Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:47 pm

SWADawg wrote:
planecane wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
This is really bad news for Southwest if this amendment doesn’t get added to this bill. The implications for Southwest being able to replace and grow their core Airplane in the 150 seat category is their key to growth and prosperity going forward. If Southwest has to look to Airbus to fulfill this order, it’s going to add time and complexity to their operation. Hopefully this gets sorted out. There is no way Southwest is going to go forward with a member of the MAX family that requires a separate type rating. Boeing may just have to scrap both the 7 & 10 at this point.

Just because it isn't part of this bill doesn't mean it still can't be extended. It can be done as a standalone bill or part of another bill during the lame duck congress period and can still be extended when the new congress is sworn in next year.

Also, why would Southwest be against having a MAX family member with a different type rating (with common parts) but be perfectly OK with a completely different aircraft from a different manufacturer with a different type rating?

If Boeing does get forced into the CAS change for the MAX 7 and MAX 10 then I would imagine that they will offer a retrofit into the MAX 8 to make them common again anyway. Don't forget, if Boeing does make the change that is in the current law they can happily design more 737 variants for another 100 years.

Absolutely. All of those things could happen. Boeing is on record as saying that if they don’t get an extension of the current certification requirements, they would probably be forced to cancel both variants. Why would they say such a thing? Maybe they’ve had conversations with various Airlines including Southwest, and they discovered that none of the Airlines are interested in a sub variant of the same family of airplanes that requires a separate type rating. So, if Boeing decides to cancel these two variants rather than put a CAS system on them, then Southwest will have no choice but to look for a different airframe from a different OEM. It would also stall Southwest’s planned growth for probably at least 3-5 years minimum until they could get the new airframe on property.

I think they said that to pressure congress into passing an extension. If they cancel the MAX 10 it will leave them with no narrowbody portfolio at all.

For Southwest, if Boeing cancelled the MAX 10 I'm sure they will come up with a way to sell a few hundred MAX 8s to WN at enough of a discount to make up for it that it would make financial sense for WN to just fly the larger size.

jplatts · Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:41 pm

malev2012 wrote:
Without the influx of MAX 7 not sure they have the frames to fly those routes.

SWADawg wrote:
Absolutely. All of those things could happen. Boeing is on record as saying that if they don’t get an extension of the current certification requirements, they would probably be forced to cancel both variants. Why would they say such a thing? Maybe they’ve had conversations with various Airlines including Southwest, and they discovered that none of the Airlines are interested in a sub variant of the same family of airplanes that requires a separate type rating. So, if Boeing decides to cancel these two variants rather than put a CAS system on them, then Southwest will have no choice but to look for a different airframe from a different OEM. It would also stall Southwest’s planned growth for probably at least 3-5 years minimum until they could get the new airframe on property.

WN will likely be able to pick up some used 737-700's as there are airlines such as KL, SK, DT, and TB who are planning on retiring their remaining 737-700's.

There will also be some used 737-800's that will become available in the next 2 to 3 years with KL planning on retiring all of its 737-800's by 2025, SK planning on retiring its 4 remaining 737-800's within the next year, and QF planning on retiring some of its 737-800's starting in late 2024.

If necessary, WN would likely seek to acquire some of the used 737-700 and 737-800 planes that will become available in the next 2 to 3 years as there are some adds and resumptions that WN needs to make to remain competitive, even if there are further delays in getting the 737 MAX 7 approved or the 737 MAX 7 gets cancelled.

FlySail2015 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:07 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:

AA really dropped the ball on the post-merger retro jets. US Airways put a lot of effort into their retro jets before the merger. It’s a small detail, but the US Airways titles and the flag logo were in a color that blended with the retro brand. Overall the image was very well put together and quite authentic. After the merger, they expanded the concept to legacy AA, but with none of the effort. The L-US aircraft were already in their respective color schemes so just kept those, with the American titles and flight logo added, but the L-AA aircraft received the minimum effort and are really awful.

Agree 100%! The US side of the family definitely did a great job, but effort took a dive when expanding the idea to the AA side. Which, coming from a TWA family myself, is really a shame!!

Chemist · Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:46 pm

WN had a one-type airline when they were smaller and growing. With Boeing's continued ineptitude, it's GOT to be the time when WN is considering the disadvantages of relying on one aircraft vendor. Perhaps this is the time when a separate fleet of Airbus is worth considering.

malev2012 · Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:55 pm

Chemist wrote:
WN had a one-type airline when they were smaller and growing. With Boeing's continued ineptitude, it's GOT to be the time when WN is considering the disadvantages of relying on one aircraft vendor. Perhaps this is the time when a separate fleet of Airbus is worth considering.

Yea the minimum size of 150 of MAX 7 really makes a lot of routes harder to serve. Unfortunately doesn't seem like they have much interest in A220 which could unlock smaller markets.

ADent · Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:59 pm

What’s the trip cost difference between a 737-7 and 737-8?

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