PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Btw what’s up with this “Herb time” nonsense in these internal messages. Is this normal stuff…now isn’t exactly the time to be cute.

Pretty classic example of SWA over complicating the simple. Central time is traditionally referred to as Herb time. Trip sheets etc list herb time. Countless crew members over the decades have showed early or been marked for no shows overlooking that their schedule is not in local time or Zulu

bob75013 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

PacificWest wrote:

My buddy is a pilot at SWA. He thinks it's due to ancient technology / small airline processes. Told me they have no clue where their pilots are -- like they don't know if their pilots are stuck in Houston or in Nashville or made it back to base. Pilots are calling into dispatch to report where they are, but just like passengers they're waiting on the phone for hours and/or not getting through. Pretty much the same experience as the passengers. Crews are paying out of pocket for hotels and food and saving receipts.

One Solution...Apple Air Tags for all SW flight crews. One guy said he was able to find his luggage in an ocean of luggage, by having an Apple Air tag in it. It also will help passengers if Sam Brinton is in the area...

Any idea what the unions might say when SW says it wants to track the employees 24/7 ?

They don't need to be tracked 24/7. They just need an app that logs when they enter an airport terminal so it can be know what their last work related location was.

sadde wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Btw what’s up with this “Herb time” nonsense in these internal messages. Is this normal stuff…now isn’t exactly the time to be cute.

Pretty classic example of SWA over complicating the simple. Central time is traditionally referred to as Herb time. Trip sheets etc list herb time. Countless crew members over the decades have showed early or been marked for no shows overlooking that their schedule is not in local time or Zulu

Oh that’s can’t be serious? That is bush league stuff.

Call it central time zone for heavens sake

questions wrote:

BowlingShoeDC9 wrote:

Chemist wrote:

I don't think that email to the DEN rampers is very well aligned with number 3 above.

Southwest needs to seriously break away from the Herb Kelleher era (it’s over; have a symbolic funeral in the HQ parking lot), dump the Luv Ya Bunches bullsh!t and determine what the best culture for the future is and focus on getting there. Yearning for the past isn’t going to move Southwest into the future.

They have broken away from it a long time ago. The Herb era exists only as PR fluff. They don’t actually try to operate by his philosophy.

planecane wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

One Solution...Apple Air Tags for all SW flight crews. One guy said he was able to find his luggage in an ocean of luggage, by having an Apple Air tag in it. It also will help passengers if Sam Brinton is in the area...

Any idea what the unions might say when SW says it wants to track the employees 24/7 ?

They don't need to be tracked 24/7. They just need an app that logs when they enter an airport terminal so it can be know what their last work related location was.

Unions won’t even let crew scheduling track what flights pilots and FAs commute on if they’re flying standby. This will never happen.

There are still some seats available on Amtrak trains to the Baltimore/Washington region from Albany, Boston, Hartford, Portland (ME), and Providence (and vice versa).

There is access to BOS Airport from Amtrak via the MBTA Blue Line or the MBTA Silver Line bus.

There is access to PVD Airport from Providence Station via the MBTA Providence/Stoughton line.

The Portland Transportation Center in Portland, ME which is served by Amtrak Downeaster trains is near PWM airport.

The BDL airport terminal is approximately 4 1/2 miles west of the Windsor Locks Amtrak station, and there is bus service to the Windsor Locks Amtrak station from BDL Airport.

The ALB airport terminal is approximately 11 miles northwest of the Albany-Rensselaer Amtrak station, and it is an approximately 20 minute drive to ALB airport from the Albany-Rensselaer Amtrak station.

There are some stranded WN passengers who are trying to get to BWI from ALB/BOS/BDL/PWM/PVD (and vice versa) who will likely ride Amtrak trains instead of flying on WN with the seats that are still available on Amtrak trains from Albany/Boston/Hartford/Portland (ME)/Providence to the Baltimore/Washington region (and vice versa).

jplatts wrote:

There are still some seats available on Amtrak trains to the Baltimore/Washington region from Albany, Boston, Hartford, Portland (ME), and Providence (and vice versa).

There is access to BOS Airport from Amtrak via the MBTA Blue Line or the MBTA Silver Line bus.

There is access to PVD Airport from Providence Station via the MBTA Providence/Stoughton line.

The Portland Transportation Center in Portland, ME which is served by Amtrak Downeaster trains is near PWM airport.

The BDL airport terminal is approximately 4 1/2 miles west of the Windsor Locks Amtrak station, and there is bus service to the Windsor Locks Amtrak station from BDL Airport.

The ALB airport terminal is approximately 11 miles northwest of the Albany-Rensselaer Amtrak station, and it is an approximately 20 minute drive to ALB airport from the Albany-Rensselaer Amtrak station.

There are some stranded WN passengers who are trying to get to BWI from ALB/BOS/BDL/PWM/PVD (and vice versa) who will likely ride Amtrak trains instead of flying on WN with the seats that are still available on Amtrak trains from Albany/Boston/Hartford/Portland (ME)/Providence to the Baltimore/Washington region (and vice versa).

Amtrak is ready when you are ! !

A couple of 8000 series flight number flights inbound to MDW. Getting the airplanes and crews back into position..
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KBNA/KMDW

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMEM/KMDW

I suppose we will also see this at other airports the next couple of days.

ObadiahPlainman wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Gary Kelly always kicked this bucket down the road, now it's Bob's job to get this turd corrected. You knew how WN ran things for years, they lagged in every area of IT for decades. Took forever to move to Amadeus. Now the back office systems is suffering the employees and passengers.

Herb did too, let's be honest.

WN was growing into a monster and became very much a legacy carrier under Herb, complete with more mature hubs, but were operating under ancient tech.

Everyone remember when WN tried to buy F9? The network wasn't why--it was the IT infrastructure and PSS system.

I Remember the first time I flew Southwest in the 80’s. They have always been behind on tech.

The ticket receipt was the tab from a 50 year old Drug-store cash register they used if you paid cash at the counter, stuffed into a Southwest ticket envelope along with the bag tag.

Meanwhile, I had just spent two weeks in a class learning Apollo, running on 25 MHz IBM PC XT’s using a phone line cradle link, that the regional I worked for was upgrading to. Yes, I have gotten old…

usxguy wrote:

I just joked about this in the Eastern Airlines thread, but is there anything stopping Southwest from operating some wetleases from folks like Eastern, Atlas (thinking 747s) just to get people MOVING?

Yes….
Both the pilot and CS/Ramp Union contracts, they are very clear about outside contracting

Cubsrule wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

Actually, I’d argue that many (non-IROPS) aspects of their customer-facing IT run quite smoothly. Changes and cancellations are gobs easier on WN than on any of the Big 3, for instance.

That's cause of Amadeus, which is GDS and they even expanded that agreement to connect to corporate booking systems in 2020.

Yup. But they’ve made a lot of strides in other areas too. For instance, their revenue management is much more advanced than it was three years ago. And ETOPS is another biggish recentish accomplishment.

We learned this week that the progress is grossly insufficient, but it’s not true that they’ve been standing still.

The ETOPS program came from AirTran, and was the primary reason they purchased the airline.

freakyrat wrote:

A couple of 8000 series flight number flights inbound to MDW. Getting the airplanes and crews back into position..
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KBNA/KMDW

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMEM/KMDW

I suppose we will also see this at other airports the next couple of days.

Probably bag flights. It sounds as if they have a lot to catch up on.

Been several years now, but does Southwest still use delivery services? Or UBEr instead?

freakyrat wrote:

A couple of 8000 series flight number flights inbound to MDW. Getting the airplanes and crews back into position..
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KBNA/KMDW

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMEM/KMDW

I suppose we will also see this at other airports the next couple of days.

What if they like put passengers on them that needed to go to Chicago. Opening these as sellable extra sections would be extremely easy. Assuming they have flight attendants.

FlyingElvii wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

A couple of 8000 series flight number flights inbound to MDW. Getting the airplanes and crews back into position..
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KBNA/KMDW

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMEM/KMDW

I suppose we will also see this at other airports the next couple of days.

Probably bag flights. It sounds as if they have a lot to catch up on.

Been several years now, but does Southwest still use delivery services? Or UBEr instead?

Depends on the airport. Most are still on the Home Serve network of delivery carriers, other use Roadie (which is owned by UPS).

My understanding is most bags are being trucked, not flown.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

Lootess wrote:

That's cause of Amadeus, which is GDS and they even expanded that agreement to connect to corporate booking systems in 2020.

Yup. But they’ve made a lot of strides in other areas too. For instance, their revenue management is much more advanced than it was three years ago. And ETOPS is another biggish recentish accomplishment.

We learned this week that the progress is grossly insufficient, but it’s not true that they’ve been standing still.

The ETOPS program came from AirTran, and was the primary reason they purchased the airline.

FL didn’t have ETOPS. Some or all of their 73Gs may have had rafts; I can’t recall.

ObadiahPlainman wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Gary Kelly always kicked this bucket down the road, now it's Bob's job to get this turd corrected. You knew how WN ran things for years, they lagged in every area of IT for decades. Took forever to move to Amadeus. Now the back office systems is suffering the employees and passengers.

Herb did too, let's be honest.

WN was growing into a monster and became very much a legacy carrier under Herb, complete with more mature hubs, but were operating under ancient tech.

Everyone remember when WN tried to buy F9? The network wasn't why--it was the IT infrastructure and PSS system.

Mr. Kelleher retired as Southwest's chief executive in 2001 and stepped down as board chairman in 2008. Technology has come a long long ways since Herb left WN. To blame him is in a way not right. If he was 20 years younger today, he would have definitely had a better grasp on the operation today. I'm sure he would have made major changes after the first meltdown.

I am however shocked that they haven't invested into a better system and IT. I am however confident that the CEO and other execs made a few phone calls looking to upgrade some stuff. Back when he retired as CEO, the airline had just broke 300 in it's fleet. Today, it's over 700. Crazy how much they have grown! With that kind of growth, I would think alarms would have been sounding about their computer systems not being able to handle situations like this.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Southwest CEO apologizes to passengers, staff after flight cancellation chaos

https://abcnews.go.com/US/airlines-canc ... d=95834221

In a nearly three-minute video statement Tuesday, Southwest CEO Bob Jordan said he is "truly sorry" for the airline's failures over the holiday weekend, praising the airline's employees, who he said "are showing up in every way," as the airline grapples to catch up after canceling thousands of flights.

"I'm apologizing to them daily," he said.

Just watched it. Thought it was tone deaf and insulting. No need to brag about being the biggest airline, especially when you totally fell apart and basically had to shut down almost all ops to catch up. Not sure this person realizes how bad this was.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am curious what the spillover is to other airlines. I have to imagine that every seat on every other airline is full for days out of some of the WN hubs.

Is anyone else upgauging or adding extra sections?

Why? Those other Carriers should just stay in their own lane and take care of their own customers! Weather, Staffing and Pilot shortage is still a real problem across the US aviation industry. And lets not forget the Covid is on the rise again as well as the Flu.

Besides..Southwest doesn't have a ticketing agreement with most other airlines...they won't take Southwest Tickets for rebooking. Southwest is too big not to have one under their old "business model".... perhaps the Department Of Transportation should force WN to sign an Interline ticketing and baggage agreement with other carriers as a way to Protect Consumers.

jetawayusa wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am curious what the spillover is to other airlines. I have to imagine that every seat on every other airline is full for days out of some of the WN hubs.

Is anyone else upgauging or adding extra sections?

Why? Those other Carriers should just stay in their own lane and take care of their own customers! Weather, Staffing and Pilot shortage is still a real problem across the US aviation industry. And lets not forget the Covid is on the rise again as well as the Flu.

Besides..Southwest doesn't have a ticketing agreement with most other airlines...they won't take Southwest Tickets for rebooking. Southwest is too big not to have one under their old "business model".... perhaps the Department Of Transportation should force WN to sign an Interline ticketing and baggage agreement with other carriers as a way to Protect Consumers.

Because those carriers are also businesses and have the responsibility of making the best financial decisions for their operations. Yes, there are upgauges throughout the system but there aren't a lot of spare larger aircraft laying around. Extra sections are a little tricky because for some carriers they don't show up on their website to book.

NIKV69 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Southwest CEO apologizes to passengers, staff after flight cancellation chaos

https://abcnews.go.com/US/airlines-canc ... d=95834221

In a nearly three-minute video statement Tuesday, Southwest CEO Bob Jordan said he is "truly sorry" for the airline's failures over the holiday weekend, praising the airline's employees, who he said "are showing up in every way," as the airline grapples to catch up after canceling thousands of flights.

"I'm apologizing to them daily," he said.

Just watched it. Thought it was tone deaf and insulting. No need to brag about being the biggest airline, especially when you totally fell apart and basically had to shut down almost all ops to catch up. Not sure this person realizes how bad this was.

One billion dollars in lost revenue bad.

Dosent change that they had a WEEK to prepare for this event. Adjust operations accordingly. I've worked in ops and dispatch and while it's complicated it's not insurmountable. WN has multiple focus cities that could handle transfer traffic leaving the hardest hit places to deal with mainly O&D. Outside of resort areas this is a historically low period for hotels. There was no reason why rooms couldn't have been booked to accommodate ground staff to rest wenn off duty. East West traffic could have been pushed through MCI, PHX,LAS or DAL. Years ago when I was at NWA we did "pop up hubs" in places like GRB, OMA or MKE when we knew MSP was going to get clobbered with weather. Naturally the bottom line took a hit but it kept customers, crew & metal moving to support the next day's operation.
Yes it's complicated but it's not a rocket science.

I am asking because there are a decent number of WN refugees that are buying-up tickets on other airlines and some stations every flight is literally sold out for days. That also have implications for other airlines that need space to reaccomodate IRROPs on their own passengers.

Flights to DEN on UA, DL, AA are generally sold out across the board the next few days for example. People are taking matters in their own hand.

FWIW, if I had shelled out $5000=10,000+ for a weeks ski trip in Colorado during school holiday break for the family you bet I'd be buying tickets on any airline that had seats into DEN if it was important to me.

I don't see it as a kicking them when they are down, but also just generally helping to clear the backlog of stranded passengers and also helping have some slack capacity for their own passengers.

USAirKid wrote:

they’re much more at the mercy of the FRIGHT railroads

Nicely done if intentional.

Ya know, nicely done in any case! A laugh is good now and then.

andrewtwentytwo wrote:

I'm booked at 3:50 PM on Friday 12/30. STL to BWI. Need some advice on if I should stick with it in hope that most of the mess will be cleaned up by then or start looking at other options?

If it is important to be there, I definitely would make other arrangements. Right now you could do DL via ATL into BWI for $600 or into DCA for $800; UA is charging $1500-$2500 into IAD. These prices will probably go up as the 30th gets closer. If you have to be there, I'd say buy the DL ticket---or pay more for a refundable one---and keep your booking on WN as well in case it does happen and you can return your DL ticket or in case it happens and DL has some issue. There's no reason to think that WN will have everything sorted out by Friday, though the one factor in your favor is that its a hub-to-hub (kindof) flight so it may get restored before others do.

Eolesen wrote:

All the people blaming this on IT are likely talking out of their ass. This looks like it was strictly a matter of staffing shortages and crews left out of position.

Lol haven't had staffing shortages since the Spring.

alasizon wrote:

jetawayusa wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am curious what the spillover is to other airlines. I have to imagine that every seat on every other airline is full for days out of some of the WN hubs.

Is anyone else upgauging or adding extra sections?

Why? Those other Carriers should just stay in their own lane and take care of their own customers! Weather, Staffing and Pilot shortage is still a real problem across the US aviation industry. And lets not forget the Covid is on the rise again as well as the Flu.

Besides..Southwest doesn't have a ticketing agreement with most other airlines...they won't take Southwest Tickets for rebooking. Southwest is too big not to have one under their old "business model".... perhaps the Department Of Transportation should force WN to sign an Interline ticketing and baggage agreement with other carriers as a way to Protect Consumers.

Because those carriers are also businesses and have the responsibility of making the best financial decisions for their operations. Yes, there are upgauges throughout the system but there aren't a lot of spare larger aircraft laying around. Extra sections are a little tricky because for some carriers they don't show up on their website to book.

UA operated flight 2509 today from SLC to LAX on a 777 that someone told me was a rescue flight for stranded WN passengers. So there might be a few.

jetawayusa wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am curious what the spillover is to other airlines. I have to imagine that every seat on every other airline is full for days out of some of the WN hubs.

Is anyone else upgauging or adding extra sections?

Why? Those other Carriers should just stay in their own lane and take care of their own customers! Weather, Staffing and Pilot shortage is still a real problem across the US aviation industry. And lets not forget the Covid is on the rise again as well as the Flu.

Besides..Southwest doesn't have a ticketing agreement with most other airlines...they won't take Southwest Tickets for rebooking. Southwest is too big not to have one under their old "business model".... perhaps the Department Of Transportation should force WN to sign an Interline ticketing and baggage agreement with other carriers as a way to Protect Consumers.

Ticketing and protection agreements, while still around, are rarely used for US Domestic anymore, thanks to Delta’s reaction to some shenanigans United pulled in the early 2000’s. It is still a thing on US International flights.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am asking because there are a decent number of WN refugees that are buying-up tickets on other airlines and some stations every flight is literally sold out for days. That also have implications for other airlines that need space to reaccomodate IRROPs on their own passengers.

Flights to DEN on UA, DL, AA are generally sold out across the board the next few days for example. People are taking matters in their own hand.

FWIW, if I had shelled out $5000=10,000+ for a weeks ski trip in Colorado during school holiday break for the family you bet I'd be buying tickets on any airline that had seats into DEN if it was important to me.

I don't see it as a kicking them when they are down, but also just generally helping to clear the backlog of stranded passengers and also helping have some slack capacity for their own passengers.

WN might not interline, but people must get to where they need to go. I would imagine there is quite a bit of a scramble to rebook. It could be a doctor who only gets so much time off seeing family for the only time this year, that vacation you noted, an important business trip, trying to make a child's wedding (although I'm surprised how few weddings in 2022, but that goes off topic).

People fly to get there. Other airlines would be wise to first handle their IRROPs, but then milk WN passengers for whatever they can get.

WN is cancelling 2,500 flights for tomorrow!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... r-AA15I22F

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/nearly-2-3-of-southwest-airlines-flights-are-canceled-tuesday-wednesday-heres-what-travelers-should-know/ar-AA15I22F

OMG, this is a nightmare. Two thirds of tomorrow's flights...


Lightsaber

Vctony wrote:

Bradin wrote:

Hypothesis:

My working theory is that it was mostly a combination of storms hitting smaller airports that serves southwest as southwest hubs and operationally crew getting trapped at these 'hubs'.

These hubs have so much of operational criticality that when something goes horribly wrong, there isn't enough operational slack to at the airport itself to rebound.

I strongly suspect the meltdowns starting at BWI, MDW, DAL, BNA, and STL. Of the two that have the least amount of operational tolerances would be DAL and MDW. BWI would probably come in a close third or fourth.

The memo sent out suggests a meltdown at DEN as well..

200+ employees at DEN walked out… can anyone confirm that at Denver because that’s the rumor. Remember it’s just an atc delay like everything else lol

bravoindia wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Bradin wrote:

Hypothesis:

My working theory is that it was mostly a combination of storms hitting smaller airports that serves southwest as southwest hubs and operationally crew getting trapped at these 'hubs'.

These hubs have so much of operational criticality that when something goes horribly wrong, there isn't enough operational slack to at the airport itself to rebound.

I strongly suspect the meltdowns starting at BWI, MDW, DAL, BNA, and STL. Of the two that have the least amount of operational tolerances would be DAL and MDW. BWI would probably come in a close third or fourth.

The memo sent out suggests a meltdown at DEN as well..

200+ employees at DEN walked out… can anyone confirm that at Denver because that’s the rumor. Remember it’s just an atc delay like everything else lol

I am pretty sure that isn't true.

greenair727 wrote:

andrewtwentytwo wrote:

I'm booked at 3:50 PM on Friday 12/30. STL to BWI. Need some advice on if I should stick with it in hope that most of the mess will be cleaned up by then or start looking at other options?

If it is important to be there, I definitely would make other arrangements. Right now you could do DL via ATL into BWI for $600 or into DCA for $800; UA is charging $1500-$2500 into IAD. These prices will probably go up as the 30th gets closer. If you have to be there, I'd say buy the DL ticket---or pay more for a refundable one---and keep your booking on WN as well in case it does happen and you can return your DL ticket or in case it happens and DL has some issue. There's no reason to think that WN will have everything sorted out by Friday, though the one factor in your favor is that its a hub-to-hub (kindof) flight so it may get restored before others do.

You could use a “back door” if you absolutely have to go Friday.
Look into Contour from Paducah to Shenandoah, about two hours from DCA driving time,over Charlotte. PAH-CLT-SHD. Should be relatively inexpensive as well.
At least it will get you to the area.

Edit:
I just took a look at it.
$175 with a 715am Paducah departure with a good connection.

lightsaber wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am asking because there are a decent number of WN refugees that are buying-up tickets on other airlines and some stations every flight is literally sold out for days. That also have implications for other airlines that need space to reaccomodate IRROPs on their own passengers.

Flights to DEN on UA, DL, AA are generally sold out across the board the next few days for example. People are taking matters in their own hand.

FWIW, if I had shelled out $5000=10,000+ for a weeks ski trip in Colorado during school holiday break for the family you bet I'd be buying tickets on any airline that had seats into DEN if it was important to me.

I don't see it as a kicking them when they are down, but also just generally helping to clear the backlog of stranded passengers and also helping have some slack capacity for their own passengers.

WN might not interline, but people must get to where they need to go. I would imagine there is quite a bit of a scramble to rebook. It could be a doctor who only gets so much time off seeing family for the only time this year, that vacation you noted, an important business trip, trying to make a child's wedding (although I'm surprised how few weddings in 2022, but that goes off topic).

People fly to get there. Other airlines would be wise to first handle their IRROPs, but then milk WN passengers for whatever they can get.

WN is cancelling 2,500 flights for tomorrow!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/n ... r-AA15I22F

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/nearly-2-3-of-southwest-airlines-flights-are-canceled-tuesday-wednesday-heres-what-travelers-should-know/ar-AA15I22F

OMG, this is a nightmare. Two thirds of tomorrow's flights...


Lightsaber

And if Southwest has stated they will reimburse customers for alternative flights on other airlines, why not charge your competitor as much as you can?

evank516 wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Gary Kelly always kicked this bucket down the road, now it's Bob's job to get this turd corrected. You knew how WN ran things for years, they lagged in every area of IT for decades. Took forever to move to Amadeus. Now the back office systems is suffering the employees and passengers.

Actually, I’d argue that many (non-IROPS) aspects of their customer-facing IT run quite smoothly. Changes and cancellations are gobs easier on WN than on any of the Big 3, for instance.

One of the reasons I stopped flying Southwest is because I can’t do anything myself in the event of a disruption. My MCI-LGA flight got cancelled and I tried to rebook on the app. Said I needed to cancel my boarding pass, nowhere to do that. So I call and ask to be rebooked on the alternate flights through MDW. They say nothing available. They also say all flights to the northeast are canceled due to weather. False. Majority of flights from their “Hubs” operated but the one single (at the time) flight from MCI was cancelled.

My flight on Delta is canceled or delayed enough and I have options to rebook through the app and it’s done in 2 mins if I opt to do it. Worlds better, not going back. This just backs my claim with them. It sucks that this happened and I feel for all of the stranded travelers and shame on any other carrier price gouging them out of an alternate flight, but I’m not giving Southwest another chance.

Agreed 110%. Anytime I have issues on DL it’s easy to rebook myself on my iPhone. However doing the same with WN is nothing short of a huge pain in the butt most of the time.

questions wrote:

And if Southwest has stated they will reimburse customers for alternative flights on other airlines, why not charge your competitor as much as you can?

WN specifically stated that OAL tickets will be considered for reimbursement but not guaranteed. Presumably to prevent people from booking $3k First Class tickets thinking WN is going to pay for them.

I follow a Southwest FA on YT/Instagram. Here's her story of how things have been going. WN's scheduling sounds like it's a complete mess. Maybe even worse than I was thinking it was.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/highl ... 677195214/

Bob Jordan couldn’t seem any more tone deaf. I’ve worked for corporations before where local leadership was wonderful, but videos from executives who are “thanking” employees for their hard work while providing no real insight into how issues will be solved was pure insulting. In my opinion that’s a great example of a poor leader. Particularly, Bob Jordan appears a weak and yet insensitive leader.

I flew WN with my girlfriend last week and had a great experience. My girlfriend even said she would like to start flying WN more again. Then she saw the news and asked to make sure we don’t fly them on a trip we’ve been planning. She’s not an aviation nerd like me. My parents have also stated they’ll be avoiding WN for the coming year. They don’t want to gamble on a carrier they can’t trust to get them there in their limited vacation time.

Sure delays and CX happen on all airlines. But this is some next level stuff. And I do think the general public will take notice. It’s not like this will ruin their forever reputation. But this could hurt demand for 6-12 months.

As a side note crew friends are reporting 22 hour hold times to speak to crew scheduling today. Purely anecdotal but…yikes.

Crew lounges FULL of pilots and FA's begging to fly. This wasn't a manning problem, this was a management problem.

kabq737 wrote:

Bob Jordan couldn’t seem any more tone deaf. I’ve worked for corporations before where local leadership was wonderful, but videos from executives who are “thanking” employees for their hard work while providing no real insight into how issues will be solved was pure insulting. In my opinion that’s a great example of a poor leader. Particularly, Bob Jordan appears a weak and yet insensitive leader.

I flew WN with my girlfriend last week and had a great experience. My girlfriend even said she would like to start flying WN more again. Then she saw the news and asked to make sure we don’t fly them on a trip we’ve been planning. She’s not an aviation nerd like me. My parents have also stated they’ll be avoiding WN for the coming year. They don’t want to gamble on a carrier they can’t trust to get them there in their limited vacation time.

Sure delays and CX happen on all airlines. But this is some next level stuff. And I do think the general public will take notice. It’s not like this will ruin their forever reputation. But this could hurt demand for 6-12 months.

As a side note crew friends are reporting 22 hour hold times to speak to crew scheduling today. Purely anecdotal but…yikes.

Hang up after a hour. If they need you, they can call you. No one should ever stay on the line that long. Get yourself home. Submit a reimbursement for your expenses.

usxguy wrote:

I just joked about this in the Eastern Airlines thread, but is there anything stopping Southwest from operating some wetleases from folks like Eastern, Atlas (thinking 747s) just to get people MOVING?

Having to fly the disaster that is Eastern is worse...

TripleA wrote:

UA operated flight 2509 today from SLC to LAX on a 777 that someone told me was a rescue flight for stranded WN passengers. So there might be a few.

Rose Bowl charter for the Utes. https://twitter.com/slcairport/status/1607866152776044544?s=20&t=UczKn_zvaqtFKwhj7lOVcQ

kabq737 wrote:

....As a side note crew friends are reporting 22 hour hold times to speak to crew scheduling today. Purely anecdotal but…yikes.

This nonsense and incompetent management and leadership (who was well aware of the IT / crew issues from the last meltdown: why not jump ship to a better airline? Is it the loss of seniority? Would you start at UA/DL/AA lower in the picks as that why there isn't mass departures (no pun intended!)? Its a lot to put up with as an employee....

barney captain wrote:

Crew lounges FULL of pilots and FA's begging to fly. This wasn't a manning problem, this was a management problem.

SJC is San Jose, California, not Costa Rica.

amtravels wrote:

For those debating whether this is an IT failure or not, read this thread from Twitter:

Learning that the Southwest Airlines meltdown is due to an antiquated crew scheduling system that assumes where a crew member is instead of working off live flight data. They’ve lost track of almost every crew member and the only way to solve it is for each one to individually call scheduling to tell them where they are. Their phone lines are swamped and I’ve seen screenshots of crew on hold for 23+ hours trying to get through to scheduling. Because scheduling can’t keep track of where crew are, crew can’t get a hotel room for themselves in order to start their FAA mandated rest period. Lots of stories of crew members booking their one hotel rooms with the hopes it’ll be reimbursed at some point.

Source: https://twitter.com/justanother_ben/sta ... 5509929985

Tl;dr: Weather started it. Poor IT exacerbated it.
Crew scheduling IT system is fundamentally broken. Because it’s broken, WN doesn’t know where its crew are. Crew have to call scheduling to let them know where they’re at. With so many crew out of position, there are so many people calling Crew Scheduling that no one can get through, so very few crews can be matched to flights in order to actually fly legally.

Astonishing! Reminds me of this employer I worked with who had 500+ employees and had them all using their personal email. Managers sent group emails not using bcc. Made things SPICY when they conducted layoffs or fired someone.

[code][/code]

GSP psgr wrote:

I follow a Southwest FA on YT/Instagram. Here's her story of how things have been going. WN's scheduling sounds like it's a complete mess. Maybe even worse than I was thinking it was.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/highl ... 677195214/

Yeah the not having any clue where crews even are, individual bases trying to rig makeshift spreadsheets, scheduling people for deadheads that are already leaving or going from cities the crews aren’t even in. All of it is pretty shocking. I can understand crews being out of position to operate future flights, but the extent to which WN doesn’t seem to know where their crews even are to begin sorting things out is surprising.

Yikes - 60% of flights canceled now on Thursday too. I am/was for a hard reset - but after 3 days you can’t operate even 10% more flights than the first 2 days of the reset? Not a good sign for weekend travel

Jetsgo wrote:

TripleA wrote:

UA operated flight 2509 today from SLC to LAX on a 777 that someone told me was a rescue flight for stranded WN passengers. So there might be a few.

Rose Bowl charter for the Utes. https://twitter.com/slcairport/status/1607866152776044544?s=20&t=UczKn_zvaqtFKwhj7lOVcQ

My bad, thanks for the clarification.

joeblow10 wrote:

Yikes - 60% of flights canceled now on Thursday too. I am/was for a hard reset - but after 3 days you can’t operate even 10% more flights than the first 2 days of the reset? Not a good sign for weekend travel

They basically said yesterday that it would be like this thru Friday.

TripleA wrote:

UA operated flight 2509 today from SLC to LAX on a 777 that someone told me was a rescue flight for stranded WN passengers. So there might be a few.

Pretty sure that’s Utah flying to LA for the rose bowl. You’ll see a couple UA 777s flying college football teams to their bowl games this week. UCLA took a UA 777 LAX-ELP yesterday (in fact I think it’s the same physical plane).

alasizon wrote:

jetawayusa wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I am curious what the spillover is to other airlines. I have to imagine that every seat on every other airline is full for days out of some of the WN hubs.

Is anyone else upgauging or adding extra sections?

Why? Those other Carriers should just stay in their own lane and take care of their own customers! Weather, Staffing and Pilot shortage is still a real problem across the US aviation industry. And lets not forget the Covid is on the rise again as well as the Flu.

Besides..Southwest doesn't have a ticketing agreement with most other airlines...they won't take Southwest Tickets for rebooking. Southwest is too big not to have one under their old "business model".... perhaps the Department Of Transportation should force WN to sign an Interline ticketing and baggage agreement with other carriers as a way to Protect Consumers.

Because those carriers are also businesses and have the responsibility of making the best financial decisions for their operations. Yes, there are upgauges throughout the system but there aren't a lot of spare larger aircraft laying around. Extra sections are a little tricky because for some carriers they don't show up on their website to book.

Which US airlines have "a lot of Spare Larger Aircrafts laying around"? ...if they had them would they not be scheduled to fly? And where do you propose to get "extra" crews and pilots? Friends at DL, AA and UA have told me that their company are all offering incentives/overtime pay to pick up extra flying since the 22nd... There are Pages of "Open Board, Open Time" (Whatever their verbiage) and most don't end up being picked up. Most pilots are maxed out in their flying ....and Frankly most "available" aircrafts are already committed in "revenue" service during the "holidays"

barney captain wrote:

Crew lounges FULL of pilots and FA's begging to fly. This wasn't a manning problem, this was a management problem.

Probably Red Pay+, a Vacay day buyback at whatever, and a comp day later.

Dude makes out like a bank robber, and pays for the entire vacation just flying the plane home, with a pic to remember.