Southwest Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2022

swacle · Sun May 01, 2022 8:27 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
Looks like as of June,

N8619F will be the new Illinois One
N8620H will be the new Tennessee One

And still WN craps on their second state outside Texas by giving nearly every other state in their network a plane EXCEPT Oklahoma!

Washington? Oregon? Utah? Arkansas?, Alabama? Virginia? Ohio? Wisconsin? Minnesota? New York? Pennsylvania? Connecticut? Massachusetts? Maine? New Hampshire? Indiana? Kansas? Idaho? Montana? Hawaii? Kentucky? Michigan?

Just sayin...

dennypayne · Sun May 01, 2022 8:38 pm

Hope there’s not another operational meltdown coming like last month. I’ve been trying to check in for my flight for the last 4 hours and getting “Reservation not ticketed” errors. Called in, agents say they are aware of the issue but “no workaround” is available. WN’s IT issues make me nervous to keep booking on them.

FlyingMSY · Sun May 01, 2022 9:03 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
Looks like as of June,

N8619F will be the new Illinois One
N8620H will be the new Tennessee One

And still WN craps on their second state outside Texas by giving nearly every other state in their network a plane EXCEPT Oklahoma!

To be fair, WN's first state outside of Texas, Louisiana, took 39 years to be represented on an aircraft. I would assume WN chooses what state gets a state representation based on passenger numbers and/or historical significance.

Bit of data pulling, between 2021 and 2022, pax numbers were, according to Bureau of Transportation Statistics:
MSY- 2.854,000
OKC- 1,089,000
TUL- 746,000
... and for comparison with ABQ, where WN used to have a large presence:
ABQ- 1,539,000
... and to what was the other most recent state livery, Tennessee:
BNA: 8,733,000
MEM: 753,000

orlandocfi · Sun May 01, 2022 9:13 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Hope there’s not another operational meltdown coming like last month. I’ve been trying to check in for my flight for the last 4 hours and getting “Reservation not ticketed” errors. Called in, agents say they are aware of the issue but “no workaround” is available. WN’s IT issues make me nervous to keep booking on them.

I have recently received an erroneous confirmation code and found the correct one in my email. Not sure why multiple codes were sent via email, but check your inbox and junk folder to see if you are experiencing something similar.

MIflyer12 · Sun May 01, 2022 11:25 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Is there anything "firm" about the Max 7, just askin'.

Ordering them and getting them into revenue service seems tricky.

As posted by me a few days ago, the remaining (from 4/1/22) purchase commitments for 2022 favor -8s to -7s about 4:1.

The -7s will eventually be certified, delivered, and placed into revenue service. I'm not trying to guess the FAA timeline. Boeing has lots of people for that.

jplatts · Mon May 02, 2022 5:49 pm

PVD523 wrote:
Somehow DCA remains 2x daily.

I can understand WN keeping 2x daily nonstops on the PVD-DCA route while making cuts on other routes out of PVD with DCA being a slot-restricted airport.

lat41 · Tue May 03, 2022 1:43 am

jplatts wrote:
PVD523 wrote:
Somehow DCA remains 2x daily.

I can understand WN keeping 2x daily nonstops on the PVD-DCA route while making cuts on other routes out of PVD with DCA being a slot-restricted airport.

It is possible that WN has an arrangement with the US government, particularly, the Navy for bulk travel on that route.
Check other cities in the Northeast during this lean period, PVD does not get whacked as hard as some.

MIflyer12 · Tue May 03, 2022 1:08 pm

lat41 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
PVD523 wrote:
Somehow DCA remains 2x daily.

I can understand WN keeping 2x daily nonstops on the PVD-DCA route while making cuts on other routes out of PVD with DCA being a slot-restricted airport.

It is possible that WN has an arrangement with the US government, particularly, the Navy for bulk travel on that route.
Check other cities in the Northeast during this lean period, PVD does not get whacked as hard as some.

AA is the carrier on the City Pair Program for PVD-DCA in FY 2022.

https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/tr ... rogram-cpp

jplatts · Tue May 03, 2022 6:34 pm

There is an article titled "Southwest Becomes One Of America's Least Reliable Airlines-After One Bright Idea Backfired" which discusses the reliability issues were happening on WN, and that article can be found at https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... ar-AAWLq9l.

Jshank83 · Tue May 03, 2022 7:23 pm

jplatts wrote:
There is an article titled "Southwest Becomes One Of America's Least Reliable Airlines-After One Bright Idea Backfired" which discusses the reliability issues were happening on WN, and that article can be found at https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... ar-AAWLq9l.

Someone hates WN.

Not to say there isn't merit to some of the argument but they framed it as bad as you could.

orlandocfi · Tue May 03, 2022 7:27 pm

jplatts wrote:
There is an article titled "Southwest Becomes One Of America's Least Reliable Airlines-After One Bright Idea Backfired" which discusses the reliability issues were happening on WN, and that article can be found at https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... ar-AAWLq9l.

This article was already linked upthread. The author makes valid points, but I think WN leadership is stuck in their echo chamber and unable to receive ideas/criticism!

BWIAirport · Wed May 04, 2022 3:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
wxtech wrote:
How are ORD, IAH, and MIA doing for WN?

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of ORD, IAH, and MIA in January 2022:
AUS-ORD - 2659 passengers, 7929 seats, 33.54% load factor
BNA-ORD - 11965 passengers, 28886 seats, 41.42% load factor
BWI-ORD - 10004 passengers, 25550 seats, 39.15% load factor
DAL-ORD - 16201 passengers, 31095 seats, 52.10% load factor
DEN-ORD - 21306 passengers, 34416 seats, 61.91% load factor
FLL-ORD - 5094 passengers, 8580 seats, 59.37% load factor
LAS-ORD - 5979 passengers, 8008 seats, 74.66% load factor
MCO-ORD - 8523 passengers, 11504 seats, 74.09% load factor
ORD-PHX - 13384 passengers, 18082 seats, 74.02% load factor
ORD-RSW - 6478 passengers, 8580 seats, 75.50% load factor
ORD-TPA - 6345 passengers, 10153 seats, 62.49% load factor

BNA-IAH - 10379 passengers, 23428 seats, 44.30% load factor
DAL-IAH - 16809 passengers, 47302 seats, 35.54% load factor
DEN-IAH - 13929 passengers, 20677 seats, 67.36% load factor
IAH-LAS - 6044 passengers, 8836 seats, 68.40% load factor
IAH-MCO - 6416 passengers, 9442 seats, 67.95% load factor
IAH-MDW - 8057 passengers, 15320 seats, 52.59% load factor
IAH-MSY - 7917 passengers, 26606 seats, 29.76% load factor
IAH-PHX - 1383 passengers, 2352 seats, 58.80% load factor
IAH-TPA - 632 passengers, 1859 seats, 34.00% load factor

ATL-MIA - 13543 passengers, 24879 seats, 54.44% load factor
AUS-MIA - 5845 passengers, 9988 seats, 58.52% load factor
BNA-MIA - 11066 passengers, 17085 seats, 64.77% load factor
BWI-MIA - 22824 passengers, 35712 seats, 63.91% load factor
CMH-MIA - 573 passengers, 843 seats, 67.97% load factor
DAL-MIA - 13812 passengers, 21167 seats, 65.25% load factor
DEN-MIA - 10582 passengers, 14549 seats, 72.73% load factor
HOU-MIA - 18978 passengers, 34112 seats, 55.63% load factor
IND-MIA - 598 passengers, 922 seats, 64.86% load factor
MCI-MIA - 572 passengers, 604 seats, 94.70% load factor
MDW-MIA - 16499 passengers, 26505 seats, 62.25% load factor
MIA-MKE - 487 passengers, 747 seats, 65.19% load factor
MIA-MSY - 3608 passengers, 7359 seats, 49.03% load factor
MIA-PIT - 688 passengers, 954 seats, 72.12% load factor
MIA-STL - 6182 passengers, 9459 seats, 65.36% load factor

At what point does WN consider this experiment a failure?
It could also be a problem with the booking system, I don't believe it gives you an option just to search BWI-Chicago, it makes you pick between MDW and ORD. I wonder how many people aren't even considering ORD/IAH/MIA when they're booking flights.

Jshank83 · Wed May 04, 2022 4:03 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
jplatts wrote:
wxtech wrote:
How are ORD, IAH, and MIA doing for WN?

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of ORD, IAH, and MIA in January 2022:
AUS-ORD - 2659 passengers, 7929 seats, 33.54% load factor
BNA-ORD - 11965 passengers, 28886 seats, 41.42% load factor
BWI-ORD - 10004 passengers, 25550 seats, 39.15% load factor
DAL-ORD - 16201 passengers, 31095 seats, 52.10% load factor
DEN-ORD - 21306 passengers, 34416 seats, 61.91% load factor
FLL-ORD - 5094 passengers, 8580 seats, 59.37% load factor
LAS-ORD - 5979 passengers, 8008 seats, 74.66% load factor
MCO-ORD - 8523 passengers, 11504 seats, 74.09% load factor
ORD-PHX - 13384 passengers, 18082 seats, 74.02% load factor
ORD-RSW - 6478 passengers, 8580 seats, 75.50% load factor
ORD-TPA - 6345 passengers, 10153 seats, 62.49% load factor

BNA-IAH - 10379 passengers, 23428 seats, 44.30% load factor
DAL-IAH - 16809 passengers, 47302 seats, 35.54% load factor
DEN-IAH - 13929 passengers, 20677 seats, 67.36% load factor
IAH-LAS - 6044 passengers, 8836 seats, 68.40% load factor
IAH-MCO - 6416 passengers, 9442 seats, 67.95% load factor
IAH-MDW - 8057 passengers, 15320 seats, 52.59% load factor
IAH-MSY - 7917 passengers, 26606 seats, 29.76% load factor
IAH-PHX - 1383 passengers, 2352 seats, 58.80% load factor
IAH-TPA - 632 passengers, 1859 seats, 34.00% load factor

ATL-MIA - 13543 passengers, 24879 seats, 54.44% load factor
AUS-MIA - 5845 passengers, 9988 seats, 58.52% load factor
BNA-MIA - 11066 passengers, 17085 seats, 64.77% load factor
BWI-MIA - 22824 passengers, 35712 seats, 63.91% load factor
CMH-MIA - 573 passengers, 843 seats, 67.97% load factor
DAL-MIA - 13812 passengers, 21167 seats, 65.25% load factor
DEN-MIA - 10582 passengers, 14549 seats, 72.73% load factor
HOU-MIA - 18978 passengers, 34112 seats, 55.63% load factor
IND-MIA - 598 passengers, 922 seats, 64.86% load factor
MCI-MIA - 572 passengers, 604 seats, 94.70% load factor
MDW-MIA - 16499 passengers, 26505 seats, 62.25% load factor
MIA-MKE - 487 passengers, 747 seats, 65.19% load factor
MIA-MSY - 3608 passengers, 7359 seats, 49.03% load factor
MIA-PIT - 688 passengers, 954 seats, 72.12% load factor
MIA-STL - 6182 passengers, 9459 seats, 65.36% load factor

At what point does WN consider this experiment a failure?
It could also be a problem with the booking system, I don't believe it gives you an option just to search BWI-Chicago, it makes you pick between MDW and ORD. I wonder how many people aren't even considering ORD/IAH/MIA when they're booking flights.

They do have a banner at the top of the page that say we now fly to XXX to try to remind people if they offer a nonstop to MIA/IAH/MIA on the city pairs you are checking for FLL/HOU/MDW. And offers a link to search for flights for that airport instead.

Nicknuzzii · Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
jplatts wrote:
wxtech wrote:
How are ORD, IAH, and MIA doing for WN?

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of ORD, IAH, and MIA in January 2022:
AUS-ORD - 2659 passengers, 7929 seats, 33.54% load factor
BNA-ORD - 11965 passengers, 28886 seats, 41.42% load factor
BWI-ORD - 10004 passengers, 25550 seats, 39.15% load factor
DAL-ORD - 16201 passengers, 31095 seats, 52.10% load factor
DEN-ORD - 21306 passengers, 34416 seats, 61.91% load factor
FLL-ORD - 5094 passengers, 8580 seats, 59.37% load factor
LAS-ORD - 5979 passengers, 8008 seats, 74.66% load factor
MCO-ORD - 8523 passengers, 11504 seats, 74.09% load factor
ORD-PHX - 13384 passengers, 18082 seats, 74.02% load factor
ORD-RSW - 6478 passengers, 8580 seats, 75.50% load factor
ORD-TPA - 6345 passengers, 10153 seats, 62.49% load factor

BNA-IAH - 10379 passengers, 23428 seats, 44.30% load factor
DAL-IAH - 16809 passengers, 47302 seats, 35.54% load factor
DEN-IAH - 13929 passengers, 20677 seats, 67.36% load factor
IAH-LAS - 6044 passengers, 8836 seats, 68.40% load factor
IAH-MCO - 6416 passengers, 9442 seats, 67.95% load factor
IAH-MDW - 8057 passengers, 15320 seats, 52.59% load factor
IAH-MSY - 7917 passengers, 26606 seats, 29.76% load factor
IAH-PHX - 1383 passengers, 2352 seats, 58.80% load factor
IAH-TPA - 632 passengers, 1859 seats, 34.00% load factor

ATL-MIA - 13543 passengers, 24879 seats, 54.44% load factor
AUS-MIA - 5845 passengers, 9988 seats, 58.52% load factor
BNA-MIA - 11066 passengers, 17085 seats, 64.77% load factor
BWI-MIA - 22824 passengers, 35712 seats, 63.91% load factor
CMH-MIA - 573 passengers, 843 seats, 67.97% load factor
DAL-MIA - 13812 passengers, 21167 seats, 65.25% load factor
DEN-MIA - 10582 passengers, 14549 seats, 72.73% load factor
HOU-MIA - 18978 passengers, 34112 seats, 55.63% load factor
IND-MIA - 598 passengers, 922 seats, 64.86% load factor
MCI-MIA - 572 passengers, 604 seats, 94.70% load factor
MDW-MIA - 16499 passengers, 26505 seats, 62.25% load factor
MIA-MKE - 487 passengers, 747 seats, 65.19% load factor
MIA-MSY - 3608 passengers, 7359 seats, 49.03% load factor
MIA-PIT - 688 passengers, 954 seats, 72.12% load factor
MIA-STL - 6182 passengers, 9459 seats, 65.36% load factor

At what point does WN consider this experiment a failure?
It could also be a problem with the booking system, I don't believe it gives you an option just to search BWI-Chicago, it makes you pick between MDW and ORD. I wonder how many people aren't even considering ORD/IAH/MIA when they're booking flights.

Exactly what happened to EWR. It only came up if you searched EWR or New Jersey…

dennypayne · Wed May 04, 2022 8:42 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
They do have a banner at the top of the page that say we now fly to XXX to try to remind people if they offer a nonstop to MIA/IAH/MIA on the city pairs you are checking for FLL/HOU/MDW. And offers a link to search for flights for that airport instead.

They are also offering a 3x Rapid Rewards points promotion for travel to any of those 3 airports as well. I registered, just in case. :lol:

Just register, book, and fly between 4/28–7/28/2022 and you’ll earn triple the points on every flight.* That means if you register, then book and fly from 4/28 – 7/28 to more than one of the airports above or frequent your favorite of the three, you’ll earn 3X again, and again, and—you get the point.

jplatts · Wed May 04, 2022 10:05 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
jplatts wrote:
At what point does WN consider this experiment a failure?
It could also be a problem with the booking system, I don't believe it gives you an option just to search BWI-Chicago, it makes you pick between MDW and ORD. I wonder how many people aren't even considering ORD/IAH/MIA when they're booking flights.

WN should add an option that would allow passengers to simultaneously search for flights out of MDW/ORD, HOU/IAH, FLL/MIA, BWI/DCA/IAD, LAX/BUR/LGB/ONT/SNA, and OAK/SJC/SFO along with the ability to book a return flight out of an airport different from the arrival airport on the same reservation in the case of a round-trip itinerary to a market where WN serves more than 1 airport.

AA, DL, UA, and AS already do offer similar capabilities in the U.S. markets where they serve more than 1 airport, and WN adding these capabilities would help WN better compete against AA, DL, UA, and AS.

WN would be able to connect passengers to more of WN's network from IAH if WN adds IAH-ATL/BWI/STL nonstop service. ATL, BWI, and STL are also three of the top destinations traveled to from Houston on WN that don't currently have WN nonstop service out of IAH (even though WN already serves ATL/BWI/STL nonstop from HOU).

One challenge that WN faces at both ORD and DCA is that some of the travelers who are travelling to closer-in markets from Chicago or DC on WN are better off flying nonstop out of MDW or BWI instead of connecting from ORD or DCA (especially in cases that would involve a backtracking connection out of ORD or DCA instead of a nonstop flight out of MDW or BWI).

WN can add more nonstop flights out of ORD, but most of the closer-in cities currently do not have enough O&D demand from Chicago on WN to support WN nonstop service out of both MDW and ORD. The situation is different for WN at DCA with the slot restrictions and perimeter restrictions that WN faces at DCA, unlike ORD where WN doesn't face slot or perimeter restrictions.

For comparison, here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors out of ORD, IAH, and MIA on WN in July 2021:
ORD - 161828 passengers, 198296 seats, 81.61% load factor
IAH - 128990 passengers, 184492 seats, 69.92% load factor
MIA - 162026 passengers, 203983 seats, 79.43% load factor

Load factors were also weaker at most of the WN stations in January 2022 than they were in July 2021, and not just at ORD, IAH, or MIA.

DEN1895 · Fri May 06, 2022 3:26 pm

The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

Photo of the expansion

avi8 · Fri May 06, 2022 3:29 pm

Amazing. How exactly are they doing that when I thought they weren’t expanding this year?

av8tiongeek · Fri May 06, 2022 3:36 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

Photo of the expansion

Management has stated on multiple occasions it will be the largest flight attendant base in history. They plan to grow it to 3000 and it is currently at 2183.

william · Fri May 06, 2022 3:46 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZePM9m38xgg

DIA Unveils 16 New Southwest Gates

william · Fri May 06, 2022 3:49 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

Photo of the expansion

400 flights? Impressive. There was a time SWA was against mega hubs but it must be profitable for them. Just think if the Frontier deal went through SWA would be in A concourse with a walking connection to the main terminal.

jplatts · Fri May 06, 2022 4:21 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

LotsaRunway · Fri May 06, 2022 5:33 pm

jplatts wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

I think it's just easier to say what WN has already said, that most of their dots will have a DEN nonstop. Exactly when, is another question.

SteveXC500 · Fri May 06, 2022 6:09 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
The ribbon was cut on the 16 gate expansion at DEN yesterday, it will be operational in June. While there are more details about the expansion in the Denver thread, there were plans given for the growth of Southwest in DEN. This spring they are currently at 230 departures, that grows to 250 during the summer, and will grow up to 270 by October. It was also mentioned that the end goal is to get WN up to 400 departures in the long term, which I have never seen before, they have frequently stated 300 in the past. Link to article: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/05/06/denver-airport-concourse-expansion-southwest-airlines/

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

I think it's just easier to say what WN has already said, that most of their dots will have a DEN nonstop. Exactly when, is another question.

And currently, with what planes and crew?

sprxUSA · Fri May 06, 2022 6:13 pm

Well, they can just cut other flights from cities and reallocate them to DEN.

MIflyer12 · Fri May 06, 2022 6:18 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
Well, they can just cut other flights from cities and reallocate them to DEN.

The imperative to make money ranks higher than just building out a DEN hub. Frequencies and routes get set based on profitability.

ScottB · Fri May 06, 2022 7:43 pm

william wrote:
Just think if the Frontier deal went through SWA would be in A concourse with a walking connection to the main terminal.

Perhaps but ironically less opportunity to expand; much of the north side of A is common-use/international gates.

Flflyer83 · Fri May 06, 2022 8:39 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
jplatts wrote:

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

I think it's just easier to say what WN has already said, that most of their dots will have a DEN nonstop. Exactly when, is another question.

And currently, with what planes and crew?

They have over 18,000 flight attendants now with the hiring spree that they’ve been on. What’s the status of the pilot hiring?

lat41 · Sat May 07, 2022 2:41 pm

jplatts wrote:

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

PVD' s DEN service will hopefully return as it was sacrificed to help prop up the BOS operation further North. Existing carriers on that route hammered WN which drove tariff into the cellar while full flights PVD DEN that Southern New Englanders paid a premium for were pulled.

PVD523 · Sat May 07, 2022 4:24 pm

lat41 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

I would likely expect WN to re-add daily nonstop service to CLT, CVG, GRR, BDL, JAX, ORF, and RIC out of DEN once WN has more staff and more planes.

GSP can probably support WN nonstop service to DEN with
(a) F9 no longer serving GSP,
(b) WN having less nonstop service out of ATL to the Western U.S. than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) WN down to 2x daily nonstops on the GSP-ATL route from the 3x daily nonstops that WN was operating to ATL from GSP prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) the amount of demand that was there to the Western U.S. from GSP on F9 (on F9 GSP-DEN/LAS nonstop flights plus connections to other Western U.S. markets from GSP on F9) and WN (via connections through ATL) prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(e) more connecting opportunities that would available through DEN on WN if GSP-DEN nonstop service is added by WN than what F9 had offered from GSP.

A detailed discussion regarding the number of passengers and load factors out of GSP on F9/WN/G4 in 2019 and the possibility of WN adding GSP-DEN nonstop service can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468711#p23278293.

WN adding DEN-SYR nonstop service is also a possibility with WN having made other competitive against UA and F9 adds out of DEN along with WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN.

PVD' s DEN service will hopefully return as it was sacrificed to help prop up the BOS operation further North. Existing carriers on that route hammered WN which drove tariff into the cellar while full flights PVD DEN that Southern New Englanders paid a premium for were pulled.

I’m hopeful as well, once they’re able to improve their staffing issues and aircraft shortage. In the short term WN has essentially resigned to flowing all PVD-based customers, even the huge Florida market, through BWI and MDW (and surprisingly DCA to a lesser extent), which I’m hopeful can be attributed to those two issues and the longer term future looks brighter. The premium WN commanded on PVD-DEN would still be there considering F9 is charging north of $500 round trip for the route. Time will tell.

jplatts · Sat May 07, 2022 7:40 pm

PVD523 wrote:
lat41 wrote:
PVD' s DEN service will hopefully return as it was sacrificed to help prop up the BOS operation further North. Existing carriers on that route hammered WN which drove tariff into the cellar while full flights PVD DEN that Southern New Englanders paid a premium for were pulled.

I’m hopeful as well, once they’re able to improve their staffing issues and aircraft shortage. In the short term WN has essentially resigned to flowing all PVD-based customers, even the huge Florida market, through BWI and MDW (and surprisingly DCA to a lesser extent), which I’m hopeful can be attributed to those two issues and the longer term future looks brighter. The premium WN commanded on PVD-DEN would still be there considering F9 is charging north of $500 round trip for the route. Time will tell.

I had previously mentioned that WN was still able to make PVD-DEN nonstop service work after adding BOS-DEN nonstop service but prior to dropping PVD-DEN nonstop service.

There was an average of more than 291 passengers per day in each direction traveling to DEN or points further west from PVD in Q4 2021.

A post with the load factors that WN was getting on DEN-BOS/PVD/MHT nonstop flights in 2013 can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412681&start=150#p21753097.

Vctony · Sat May 07, 2022 10:23 pm

avi8 wrote:
Amazing. How exactly are they doing that when I thought they weren’t expanding this year?

WN will also be getting 8 additional gates at PHX this summer and have committed to expanding there as well. How? I have no idea.

av8tiongeek · Sun May 08, 2022 3:14 pm

All I've heard so far is that one group is not happy about another working from home permanently, but that's what you get when you're not customer facing in 2022. What other issues are they having with the TA?

https://www.iamdl142.org/southwest-airl ... reement-2/

av8tiongeek · Sun May 08, 2022 5:42 pm

av8tiongeek wrote:
All I've heard so far is that one group is not happy about another working from home permanently, but that's what you get when you're not customer facing in 2022. What other issues are they having with the TA?

https://www.iamdl142.org/southwest-airl ... reement-2/

By the way, this is their second TA. Wow!

jplatts · Sun May 08, 2022 9:22 pm

Vctony wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Amazing. How exactly are they doing that when I thought they weren’t expanding this year?

WN will also be getting 8 additional gates at PHX this summer and have committed to expanding there as well. How? I have no idea.

WN is going to be resuming PHX-BUF/CVG/DTW/SDF nonstop service on a Saturday-only basis on 6/11/2022.

WN increasing PHX-BUF/CVG/CLE/DTW/SDF/PIT/RDU nonstop service back to daily nonstop service is a possibility once WN has more staff and more planes.

I had previously mentioned the possibility of WN re-adding PHX-BOS nonstop service as WN had strong load factors on the PHX-BOS route 10 years ago.

Here were the load factors that WN had on BOS-PHX nonstop service in 2011 and 2012:
2011 - 92.79%
2012 - 94.07%

B6 is also the only airline other than AA currently serving BOS nonstop from PHX, whereas WN faces nonstop competition from airlines other than AA or B6 on its BOS-MDW/DEN/BNA/MCO routes.

WN re-adding PHX-PHL nonstop service is a possibility with there currently being no nonstop competition on the PHX-PHL route with AA currently being the only airline serving PHL nonstop from Greater Phoenix. WN also had good load factors on PHL-PHX nonstop service in 2019, with the average load factor of PHL-PHX being 90.75% in 2019.

jplatts · Sun May 08, 2022 9:25 pm

Here are the PDEW's out of PHX/AZA to the top contiguous U.S. markets served by WN traveled to from Greater Phoenix in Q4 2021 that don't currently have at least less-than-daily WN nonstop service out of PHX:
Phoenix-NYC - 1594
Phoenix-BOS/PVD/MHT - 615
Phoenix-PHL - 478
Phoenix-CLT - 359
Phoenix-DSM - 217
Phoenix-GRR - 167
Phoenix-EUG - 122
Phoenix-FAT - 106
Phoenix-BDL - 100
Phoenix-JAX - 97
Phoenix-RSW - 94
Phoenix-ORF/PHF - 84
Phoenix-BZN - 83
Phoenix-RIC - 79
Phoenix-CHS - 72
Phoenix-SBA - 66

Are any of the above routes likely to be added by WN out of PHX? If so, which of the above routes out of PHX are most likely to be added by WN?

WkndWanderer · Mon May 09, 2022 4:13 am

av8tiongeek wrote:
All I've heard so far is that one group is not happy about another working from home permanently, but that's what you get when you're not customer facing in 2022. What other issues are they having with the TA?

https://www.iamdl142.org/southwest-airl ... reement-2/

Can you shed some light on the wfh conflict? And the schism over the TUL team that is mentioned? Or are these about the same issue.

whatusaid · Mon May 09, 2022 6:17 am

jplatts wrote:
Here are the PDEW's out of PHX/AZA to the top contiguous U.S. markets served by WN traveled to from Greater Phoenix in Q4 2021 that don't currently have at least less-than-daily WN nonstop service out of PHX:
Phoenix-NYC - 1594
Phoenix-BOS/PVD/MHT - 615
Phoenix-PHL - 478
Phoenix-CLT - 359
Phoenix-DSM - 217
Phoenix-GRR - 167
Phoenix-EUG - 122
Phoenix-FAT - 106
Phoenix-BDL - 100
Phoenix-JAX - 97
Phoenix-RSW - 94
Phoenix-ORF/PHF - 84
Phoenix-BZN - 83
Phoenix-RIC - 79
Phoenix-CHS - 72
Phoenix-SBA - 66

Are any of the above routes likely to be added by WN out of PHX? If so, which of the above routes out of PHX are most likely to be added by WN?

Sources at FAT suggested PHX is the next add for WN there. That was months ago….

keesje · Mon May 09, 2022 6:53 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Is there anything "firm" about the Max 7, just askin'.

Ordering them and getting them into revenue service seems tricky.

As posted by me a few days ago, the remaining (from 4/1/22) purchase commitments for 2022 favor -8s to -7s about 4:1.

The -7s will eventually be certified, delivered, and placed into revenue service. I'm not trying to guess the FAA timeline. Boeing has lots of people for that.

Before, during and after the 737-7 selection / ordering, outside people thought & substantiated it might be betting on the wrong horse.

Southwest sticked by it & might end up being the sole operator of a reduced fleet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... y_customer

LotsaRunway · Mon May 09, 2022 1:35 pm

jplatts wrote:
.... I had previously mentioned the possibility of WN re-adding PHX-BOS nonstop service as WN had strong load factors on the PHX-BOS route 10 years ago.

Here were the load factors that WN had on BOS-PHX nonstop service in 2011 and 2012:
2011 - 92.79%
2012 - 94.07%

B6 is also the only airline other than AA currently serving BOS nonstop from PHX, whereas WN faces nonstop competition from airlines other than AA or B6 on its BOS-MDW/DEN/BNA/MCO routes.

WN re-adding PHX-PHL nonstop service is a possibility with there currently being no nonstop competition on the PHX-PHL route with AA currently being the only airline serving PHL nonstop from Greater Phoenix. WN also had good load factors on PHL-PHX nonstop service in 2019, with the average load factor of PHL-PHX being 90.75% in 2019.

When fares are low enough it's not difficult to fill seats, however the flight may not be profitable. Yesterday's super-low fares and them competing with the bus are history and generally the best fares you can find will be on competitive routes. This would include the potential PHX-BOS/PHL. IMHO, if WN brings back these routes, it will be for strategic rather than financial reasons, as there are likely more profitable uses for their airplanes. I'm sure their required breakeven load factor would be pretty high and WN seems to have lost it's interest in trying to own PHL and BOS.

ncflyer · Mon May 09, 2022 1:42 pm

I purposely booked a RDU bDL flight over other airlines because it was a single flight number stop in BWI. And yet still had to change planes, long B to C connection (same crew). Yet another example of the decline in WN, highly misleading.

av8tiongeek · Mon May 09, 2022 1:44 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:
All I've heard so far is that one group is not happy about another working from home permanently, but that's what you get when you're not customer facing in 2022. What other issues are they having with the TA?

https://www.iamdl142.org/southwest-airl ... reement-2/

Can you shed some light on the wfh conflict? And the schism over the TUL team that is mentioned? Or are these about the same issue.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information, rather seeking it myself. I just know that this is the second TA that has been voted down. All I've heard is that the reservations group will be working from home permanently and that is not sitting well with those who have no choice (customer-facing) and of course the money is unacceptable.

william · Mon May 09, 2022 1:47 pm

keesje wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Is there anything "firm" about the Max 7, just askin'.

Ordering them and getting them into revenue service seems tricky.

As posted by me a few days ago, the remaining (from 4/1/22) purchase commitments for 2022 favor -8s to -7s about 4:1.

The -7s will eventually be certified, delivered, and placed into revenue service. I'm not trying to guess the FAA timeline. Boeing has lots of people for that.

Before, during and after the 737-7 selection / ordering, outside people thought & substantiated it might be betting on the wrong horse.

Southwest sticked by it & might end up being the sole operator of a reduced fleet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... y_customer

Yeah, people have been saying that for the last 30 years.

WkndWanderer · Mon May 09, 2022 3:39 pm

av8tiongeek wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
av8tiongeek wrote:
All I've heard so far is that one group is not happy about another working from home permanently, but that's what you get when you're not customer facing in 2022. What other issues are they having with the TA?

https://www.iamdl142.org/southwest-airl ... reement-2/

Can you shed some light on the wfh conflict? And the schism over the TUL team that is mentioned? Or are these about the same issue.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information, rather seeking it myself. I just know that this is the second TA that has been voted down. All I've heard is that the reservations group will be working from home permanently and that is not sitting well with those who have no choice (customer-facing) and of course the money is unacceptable.

Well that’s where that work was heading even before COVID, AS was making that transition pre-pandemic and UA’s call centers are about 80% remote. Seems like making a big stink about that is just going to end up with them losing the call center parts of their bargaining unit.

jplatts · Mon May 09, 2022 4:30 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
When fares are low enough it's not difficult to fill seats, however the flight may not be profitable. Yesterday's super-low fares and them competing with the bus are history and generally the best fares you can find will be on competitive routes. This would include the potential PHX-BOS/PHL. IMHO, if WN brings back these routes, it will be for strategic rather than financial reasons, as there are likely more profitable uses for their airplanes. I'm sure their required breakeven load factor would be pretty high and WN seems to have lost it's interest in trying to own PHL and BOS.

WN would probably be getting better yields on PHX-PHL/BOS than on longer routes that already have (or that will have) nonstop service on ULCC's such as LAS-BOS/EWR/PHL, LAX-EWR/PHL, or OAK-PHL since (a) no ULCC's currently serve PHL or BOS nonstop from PHX and (b) there is currently no nonstop competition on PHX-PHL route with AA currently the only airline serving PHL nonstop from PHX.

WN also has significant FF bases in Greater Phoenix and Greater San Diego to support the return of WN PHX-BOS/PHL nonstop service.

WN also currently operates a few nonstop routes out of PHX to Hawaii that are longer than PHX-BOS/PHL such as PHX-HNL/OGG/KOA/LIH.

orlandocfi · Mon May 09, 2022 4:56 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I purposely booked a RDU bDL flight over other airlines because it was a single flight number stop in BWI. And yet still had to change planes, long B to C connection (same crew). Yet another example of the decline in WN, highly misleading.

That sounds like a last minute aircraft swap and not some bait-and-switch tactic. I agree that there have been operational issues at WN recently, but it is unrealistic to expect travel to be hassle-free on any airline these days.

Western727 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:06 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I purposely booked a RDU bDL flight over other airlines because it was a single flight number stop in BWI. And yet still had to change planes, long B to C connection (same crew). Yet another example of the decline in WN, highly misleading.

That sounds like a last minute aircraft swap and not some bait-and-switch tactic. I agree that there have been operational issues at WN recently, but it is unrealistic to expect travel to be hassle-free on any airline these days.

I agree; these things happen. I was made to do a non-scheduled aircraft swap in TPA shortly before the pandemic because the first aircraft needed mx that TPA was able to provide. Routing AUS-TPA-BHM. Of course, being TPA the walk was fairly short since it was in the same terminal.

RAM787 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:11 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I purposely booked a RDU bDL flight over other airlines because it was a single flight number stop in BWI. And yet still had to change planes, long B to C connection (same crew). Yet another example of the decline in WN, highly misleading.

Unfortunately things like that happen, they're rare but they do. Network planning probably decided that plane was better off staying in BWI maybe due to scheduled maintenance.

lat41 · Mon May 09, 2022 8:08 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
jplatts wrote:
.... I had previously mentioned the possibility of WN re-adding PHX-BOS nonstop service as WN had strong load factors on the PHX-BOS route 10 years ago.

Here were the load factors that WN had on BOS-PHX nonstop service in 2011 and 2012:
2011 - 92.79%
2012 - 94.07%

B6 is also the only airline other than AA currently serving BOS nonstop from PHX, whereas WN faces nonstop competition from airlines other than AA or B6 on its BOS-MDW/DEN/BNA/MCO routes.

WN re-adding PHX-PHL nonstop service is a possibility with there currently being no nonstop competition on the PHX-PHL route with AA currently being the only airline serving PHL nonstop from Greater Phoenix. WN also had good load factors on PHL-PHX nonstop service in 2019, with the average load factor of PHL-PHX being 90.75% in 2019.

When fares are low enough it's not difficult to fill seats, however the flight may not be profitable. Yesterday's super-low fares and them competing with the bus are history and generally the best fares you can find will be on competitive routes. This would include the potential PHX-BOS/PHL. IMHO, if WN brings back these routes, it will be for strategic rather than financial reasons, as there are likely more profitable uses for their airplanes. I'm sure their required breakeven load factor would be pretty high and WN seems to have lost it's interest in trying to own PHL and BOS.

B6 and DL mainly, put up a heck of a fight to retain their FF customer along with regular business and leisure passenger in the face of the new BOS entrant WN. Southwest, I believe hoped that established carriers at BOS were going to cough up passengers, and friends they made up North at MHT and to the South at PVD would follow them to BOS. BOS fares took a nosedive and though planes might have been full on some routes, I don't think yield was too great, nor would it be if some of these BOS routes came back. Did some of the Manchester and Providence passengers get drawn to BOS back then? Well, yes but not necessarily to Southwest. Like LotsaRunway opines, the bloom may be off the flower for WN at PHL and BOS.

Jshank83 · Mon May 09, 2022 9:09 pm

RAM787 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I purposely booked a RDU bDL flight over other airlines because it was a single flight number stop in BWI. And yet still had to change planes, long B to C connection (same crew). Yet another example of the decline in WN, highly misleading.

Unfortunately things like that happen, they're rare but they do. Network planning probably decided that plane was better off staying in BWI maybe due to scheduled maintenance.

I would guess it didn't stay in BWI. Although, like you say, there is a chance it did.

I was on a flight a month or so ago. The inbound to my location had the same number as my outbound. Inbound was delayed probably 45 minutes and they did a plane swap. Both planes kept going they were just swapped for some reason. Maybe they wanted my flight to be more on time than the one it got swapped with? We all could load and just wait for the passengers from the original plane to come over. Felt bad for them thinking they would get their choice of seats then got the last seats available. I guess we ended up with a different crew than the previous leg.

But also like RAM says, I think that isn't something that happens often.

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