Welcome to the American Airlines Fleet thread - 2022 edition. Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the locked 2021 edition:
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HNY everyone!

Anybody think AA might ever order the 787-10 to fill the gap between the -9 and the 77W?

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everyone!

Anybody think AA might ever order the 787-10 to fill the gap between the -9 and the 77W?

Once the 77E gets a defined retirement schedule it would be a logical replacement for TATL and South America routes needing capacity but under 5000nm. There aren't enough 789s on order to replace the 77E fleet.

JohanTally wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everyone!

Anybody think AA might ever order the 787-10 to fill the gap between the -9 and the 77W?

Once the 77E gets a defined retirement schedule it would be a logical replacement for TATL and South America routes needing capacity but under 5000nm. There aren't enough 789s on order to replace the 77E fleet.

Sounds about right, but a lot will depend on how Boeing and AA manage the delays on the existing 788-789 orders. While AA has gone the fleet simplification route with the 777/787 on wide bodies, it is not entirely unlikely that Airbus could offer a deal on some sort of wide body down the road, but the 787-10 would fit nicely into a 77E replacement for most, but not all, of the 77E routes AA flies.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everyone!

Anybody think AA might ever order the 787-10 to fill the gap between the -9 and the 77W?

Once the 77E gets a defined retirement schedule it would be a logical replacement for TATL and South America routes needing capacity but under 5000nm. There aren't enough 789s on order to replace the 77E fleet.

Sounds about right, but a lot will depend on how Boeing and AA manage the delays on the existing 788-789 orders. While AA has gone the fleet simplification route with the 777/787 on wide bodies, it is not entirely unlikely that Airbus could offer a deal on some sort of wide body down the road, but the 787-10 would fit nicely into a 77E replacement for most, but not all, of the 77E routes AA flies.

If the 787 issue lingers they could always bring 15 332s out of the desert but it would be a task without the simulators anymore.

JohanTally wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

Once the 77E gets a defined retirement schedule it would be a logical replacement for TATL and South America routes needing capacity but under 5000nm. There aren't enough 789s on order to replace the 77E fleet.

Sounds about right, but a lot will depend on how Boeing and AA manage the delays on the existing 788-789 orders. While AA has gone the fleet simplification route with the 777/787 on wide bodies, it is not entirely unlikely that Airbus could offer a deal on some sort of wide body down the road, but the 787-10 would fit nicely into a 77E replacement for most, but not all, of the 77E routes AA flies.

If the 787 issue lingers they could always bring 15 332s out of the desert but it would be a task without the simulators anymore.

The A332 fleet is gone for good. They are not coming back, there are no more pilots current on the type.

JohanTally wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

Once the 77E gets a defined retirement schedule it would be a logical replacement for TATL and South America routes needing capacity but under 5000nm. There aren't enough 789s on order to replace the 77E fleet.

Sounds about right, but a lot will depend on how Boeing and AA manage the delays on the existing 788-789 orders. While AA has gone the fleet simplification route with the 777/787 on wide bodies, it is not entirely unlikely that Airbus could offer a deal on some sort of wide body down the road, but the 787-10 would fit nicely into a 77E replacement for most, but not all, of the 77E routes AA flies.

If the 787 issue lingers they could always bring 15 332s out of the desert but it would be a task without the simulators anymore.

No, they really can't. The A332 fleet is gone for good. Maintenance, flight crews to operate them gone too.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

Sounds about right, but a lot will depend on how Boeing and AA manage the delays on the existing 788-789 orders. While AA has gone the fleet simplification route with the 777/787 on wide bodies, it is not entirely unlikely that Airbus could offer a deal on some sort of wide body down the road, but the 787-10 would fit nicely into a 77E replacement for most, but not all, of the 77E routes AA flies.

If the 787 issue lingers they could always bring 15 332s out of the desert but it would be a task without the simulators anymore.

No, they really can't. The A332 fleet is gone for good. Maintenance, flight crews to operate them gone too.

I don't see really any scenario they would come back but you mentioned a possible Airbus order which would be much more complex than bringing the relatively young fleet of 332s out of storage. The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet. This summer is going to put a lot of strain on the AA 77E fleet that is approaching an age where reliability can start to suffer. Maybe looking for some younger RR powered 77Es would be an option but without substantial business travel recovery used 77Ws wouldn't be needed.

JohanTally wrote:

The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet.

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

JohanTally wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

If the 787 issue lingers they could always bring 15 332s out of the desert but it would be a task without the simulators anymore.

No, they really can't. The A332 fleet is gone for good. Maintenance, flight crews to operate them gone too.

I don't see really any scenario they would come back but you mentioned a possible Airbus order which would be much more complex than bringing the relatively young fleet of 332s out of storage. The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet. This summer is going to put a lot of strain on the AA 77E fleet that is approaching an age where reliability can start to suffer. Maybe looking for some younger RR powered 77Es would be an option but without substantial business travel recovery used 77Ws wouldn't be needed.

I think an Airbus order is a long shot and really only a potential option as AA decides what to do with the 777-200ER fleet (47 units). The 777-200ERs (77Es) were delivered from 1999 to 2002. They underwent extensive nose to tail overhauls as the merger got underway, with first class ripped out. The fleet will be strained, no doubt. if the full Spring/Summer 2022 schedule is fulfilled and there's not much slack. Not sure if younger 77Es are a viable solution for the immediate and getting any up to the standard of the existing fleet is a big undertaking.

The diversified fleet argument is a bit over-done. It is the airlines that have fully paid, or nearly fully paid planes, or sub fleets ear-marked for developing new markets tend to have some additional flexibility during irregular operations (e.g. DL and UA, with the 767 fleets they have). There are pros and cons for streamlined vs. diversified fleets. There is no magic solution.

When AA opted to retire the A333s, they were accelerating a plan already in place to get rid of them. Same goes for the 767 and 757s which were under-invested and with the 767, not very reliable. That left the 15 2009-2011 newer 332s which was too small a fleet to retain pilots, maintenance, etc...at a time when the industry was shrinking fast and international demand dried up as the pandemic unfolded.

MIflyer12 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet.

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

Funny how United got praise for ordering the A321neo. American is already running a simplified fleet. Unless they are getting of the A319 and A320 they run a good fleet now. I'm not sure how much simplification that AA can do in the next decade.

MIflyer12 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet.

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

What is the current status of the used 772 market? Specifically the 772 market with Trent engines....

Used 772s with GE90 engines would work too, right? They have the GE90s on the 77Ws, shouldn’t be too much difference.

washingtonflyer wrote:

What is the current status of the used 772 market? Specifically the 772 market with Trent engines....

NZ has 8 stored that are supposed to be replaced by the 78J also TG has some but they plan on flying them for a few more years. The NZ frames are relatively late builds and would think they have a good chance at a second life.

Sorry if I missed this... does anyone know when the older some odd 30 738s that were in storage are coming back online? How long does it take to get the Kodiak and then placed into service? And where are those mods being done? Tulsa? Or a 3rd party? Thanks!

JohanTally wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet.

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

Solution to the problem: Bring back the 333...with a 339 order on the backside so that the pilot retraining isn't a waste. In a few years, those 15 333 become a bunch of 339N

/s

ahj2000 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

Solution to the problem: Bring back the 333...with a 339 order on the backside so that the pilot retraining isn't a waste. In a few years, those 15 333 become a bunch of 339N

/s

The 339 would actually be a decent replacement aircraft for the 77E at AA. It would likely hold about the same number of passengers probably 270-280 a little bit less than their 333s that lacked premium economy and needed another row of J. Also the range of the two is very similar with the upgraded 251t MTOW available on the 339.

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

What about the rest of the support for the A380? i.e. parts, maintenance personnel? My understanding is its not an overly long process to get pilots qualified, though I could be wrong. But if you have no parts, and no SIMS, you have no support for the aircraft.

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

Is QR bringing back aircraft out of storage that they have no pilots for, no F/A's for, minimal if any parts for, and minimal of any qualified AMT's for? It one thing to bring back aircraft you have in storage that your currently flying that type for, than to bring in one you have zero support for.

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

What about the rest of the support for the A380? i.e. parts, maintenance personnel? My understanding is its not an overly long process to get pilots qualified, though I could be wrong. But if you have no parts, and no SIMS, you have no support for the aircraft.

We are talking about the A330 which is one of the most common widebody aircraft on the market and has an extensive network of parts and ancillary support. Much easier to get pilots and mechanics up to speed on an airframe that has over 1500 frames built and is still in production with the MRTT and the NEO that shares a lot of commonality. The lack of simulators is an obstacle but not insurmountable.

rising wrote:

Sorry if I missed this... does anyone know when the older some odd 30 738s that were in storage are coming back online? How long does it take to get the Kodiak and then placed into service? And where are those mods being done? Tulsa? Or a 3rd party? Thanks!

They are being worked in TUL, GSO & VQQ. They will take anywhere between 30 days and 60 Days depending on what all needs accomplished, not just Oasis/Kodiak but storage related work. 2-3 will get accomplished each month it will take until early 2023 to get then all completed and returned to service.

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

QR was not planning on returning the A380 to service and had no pilots current on the aircraft type.

What about the rest of the support for the A380? i.e. parts, maintenance personnel? My understanding is its not an overly long process to get pilots qualified, though I could be wrong. But if you have no parts, and no SIMS, you have no support for the aircraft.

We are talking about the A330 which is one of the most common widebody aircraft on the market and has an extensive network of parts and ancillary support. Much easier to get pilots and mechanics up to speed on an airframe that has over 1500 frames built and is still in production with the MRTT and the NEO that shares a lot of commonality. The lack of simulators is an obstacle but not insurmountable.

Yes there is still support out there for both airframe types, but again is that support at the airline? YES/NO. AA seems to have decided that it is a better decision to not bring them back and spending the money to support the aircraft. So instead they will fly less on the International route aspect. That is the decision they have made.

JohanTally wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

The 787 production issues expose airlines that don't have a diversified widebody fleet.

The diversified fleet idea is a persistent a.net wet-dream. It offers little value relative to cost. If there are design and manufacturing issues, carriers will stick the manufacturers with the bill. Carriers aren't going to suffer the costs of fragmented pilot groups, parts inventories and scheduling issues for a generation over minor remaining costs. Which, among the world's top 15 carriers, is crying 'We need a diversified fleet' to minimize risks'? Nobody.

You should tell QR to stop bringing aircraft out of storage to replace grounded A350s because they can just stick Airbus with the bill. AA has admitted it had to drastically scale back S22 but obviously long-term a simplified fleet should be beneficial unless they consistently can't fly the schedule they intended to due to aircraft availability.

QR bringing the 330 out of storage/ retirement is way different than American Airlines doing it. QR still has the fleet active on the certificate and a training plan in place with pilots. American would have to start at ground zero and it is a huge endeavor for no benefit or minimal short term benefit.

ThunderDome wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

ThunderDome wrote:

What about the rest of the support for the A380? i.e. parts, maintenance personnel? My understanding is its not an overly long process to get pilots qualified, though I could be wrong. But if you have no parts, and no SIMS, you have no support for the aircraft.

We are talking about the A330 which is one of the most common widebody aircraft on the market and has an extensive network of parts and ancillary support. Much easier to get pilots and mechanics up to speed on an airframe that has over 1500 frames built and is still in production with the MRTT and the NEO that shares a lot of commonality. The lack of simulators is an obstacle but not insurmountable.

Yes there is still support out there for both airframe types, but again is that support at the airline? YES/NO. AA seems to have decided that it is a better decision to not bring them back and spending the money to support the aircraft. So instead they will fly less on the International route aspect. That is the decision they have made.

Yes AA has made the decision that it's better to no longer support the aircraft but that decision was made before Boeing stopped delivering the only widebody aircraft AA has on order and needs to replace stored/retired aircraft. My point is that an airline could bring back support for an airliner such as the A330 easier than an out of production frame. PMUS PHL PIT and CLT mechanics still have over a decade of experience working with the A330 and still have pilots with 10k+ hours on the type. My argument isn't whether it will happen but that it could be accommodated easier at AA then another airline with no prior experience with the type.

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

Delta's 777-200ERs were RR powered. RB-211. The 777-200LRs were GE90 powered. AA's 77Es are RR. The 77Ws are GE. Would depend on what of DL's 777 fleet remains usable, available. Not sure it's the solution for AA though. The 787s will be delivered. It's just a matter of when.

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

FLALEFTY wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

That would make the DL 77E's roughly the same age as the AA 77Es as the AA ones were ordered in 1996 and deliveries stretched from 1999 to 2002. I don't see AA getting more 77Ws. The AA 77W configuration is premium heavy and there is a limited number of routes they can be flown on. Traditionally, AA has been very conservative with its 77Ws flying them to LHR, NRT/HND, HKG, GRU, EZE (seasonally on 1 of the MIA frequencies), and for a time, SYD. That was all pre-pandemic. HKG has effectively been axed and probably for good. The 77W is too much plane for LAX-SYD given the limitations on inbound to Australia non-Aussie arrivals. LHR, GRU, and EZE are covered with what AA has. The 77W will be deployed for a few months on JFK-CDG this Summer, which perhaps is to offset the suspension of MIA-CDG. AA probably has enough 77Ws. The additional 787 deliveries will happen and likely relatively soon but not in time to support a lot of growth to Europe for Summer 2022.

FLALEFTY wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

Question… if I remember how to count…this should mean the current wide body count is equal to the previous wide body count no?? (Before the 787 deliveries resume)
How many intl routes were the 757s deployed on that are being cut/reduced? Doesn’t seem like it should be much…

Off the top of my head, new planned INTL wide body routes:
JFK:
ATH
DEL
DOH
TLV
SCL

DFW:
TLV
AKL?

LAX:
CHC

SEA:
BLR
~LHR

Can’t remember what else and not sure if LHR at SEA and BOS should be counted by hey, between new and cut what’s the real count??

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

The 8 NZ 77E built 05-07 are much younger than the DL frames and are RR powered. I don't believe NZ has plans to return them to service and they already were to be replaced by the 78J.

What’s AAs plans for the A319/A320? Would AA perhaps be interested in the A320neo or any other of the MAX variants?

SXDFC wrote:

What’s AAs plans for the A319/A320? Would AA perhaps be interested in the A320neo or any other of the MAX variants?

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

PHLspecial wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

What’s AAs plans for the A319/A320? Would AA perhaps be interested in the A320neo or any other of the MAX variants?

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

You can also see AA's plans through what fleets have been refitted and/or grown and which haven't. All of the narrowbody fleets meet that except the A320.

USAirKid wrote:

PHLspecial wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

What’s AAs plans for the A319/A320? Would AA perhaps be interested in the A320neo or any other of the MAX variants?

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

You can also see AA's plans through what fleets have been refitted and/or grown and which haven't. All of the narrowbody fleets meet that except the A320.

I imagine this means the 320 routes will be upgauged to a Max8 eventually. The legacy US 320s are basically falling apart interior wise. It's not unusual to see duct tape holding various bits together.

Rookie87 wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

There are still 7 ex-Delta 777-200ERs sitting in VCV, if AA needs these they could be picked up cheaply and then no oddball parts and training would need done for the A330.

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

Question… if I remember how to count…this should mean the current wide body count is equal to the previous wide body count no?? (Before the 787 deliveries resume)
How many intl routes were the 757s deployed on that are being cut/reduced? Doesn’t seem like it should be much…

Off the top of my head, new planned INTL wide body routes:
JFK:
ATH
DEL
DOH
TLV
SCL

DFW:
TLV
AKL?

LAX:
CHC

SEA:
BLR
~LHR

Can’t remember what else and not sure if LHR at SEA and BOS should be counted by hey, between new and cut what’s the real count??

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

That would make the DL 77E's roughly the same age as the AA 77Es as the AA ones were ordered in 1996 and deliveries stretched from 1999 to 2002.

True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.

JohanTally wrote:

The 8 NZ 77E built 05-07 are much younger than the DL frames and are RR powered. I don't believe NZ has plans to return them to service and they already were to be replaced by the 78J.

Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

FLALEFTY wrote:

Rookie87 wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

Question… if I remember how to count…this should mean the current wide body count is equal to the previous wide body count no?? (Before the 787 deliveries resume)
How many intl routes were the 757s deployed on that are being cut/reduced? Doesn’t seem like it should be much…

Off the top of my head, new planned INTL wide body routes:
JFK:
ATH
DEL
DOH
TLV
SCL

DFW:
TLV
AKL?

LAX:
CHC

SEA:
BLR
~LHR

Can’t remember what else and not sure if LHR at SEA and BOS should be counted by hey, between new and cut what’s the real count??

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

That would make the DL 77E's roughly the same age as the AA 77Es as the AA ones were ordered in 1996 and deliveries stretched from 1999 to 2002.

True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.

JohanTally wrote:

The 8 NZ 77E built 05-07 are much younger than the DL frames and are RR powered. I don't believe NZ has plans to return them to service and they already were to be replaced by the 78J.

Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

The rivalry talk is nonsense. If there is money to be made, then DL, if they still own those 77Es, will offload them. The DFW issue is a non starter. AA was always much larger there, by a wide margin, and DL did itself a favor and a win by de hubbing DFW. Previously owned aircraft entering the AA fleet represent a tiny fraction of the overall fleet, but it is not unheard of. Putting aside merged fleets (US/AA), AA has taken I believe 1 or 2 former Aeromexico 77Es, and a handful of A319s from Frontier.

USAirKid wrote:

PHLspecial wrote:

SXDFC wrote:

What’s AAs plans for the A319/A320? Would AA perhaps be interested in the A320neo or any other of the MAX variants?

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

That's not it. 128 seats/3 FA's isn't a better ratio than the 738's 172 seats/4 FAs, and worse than the A321's 187/4. I'm guessing AA has enough routes with low price elasticity of demand (so the extra seats can be sold only at heavily discounted prices) to justify something mainline smaller than a MAX8. WN has 73G (and MAX7s coming, some day); DL has 319s, 717s, 221s and 223s. It's UA that has been very cautious, not buying anything 73G/319-size new in a decade.

I'd love an AA pilot or dispatcher to outline what the A319 can do that a MAX8 can't, and where those routes exist today in the AA system.

The LUS 319/320 start getting returned in large numbers 2027/28. Will be interesting to see what replaces those. And as the discussion has mostly centered on Boeing's delivery issues Airbus is pretty far off schedule on the NEOs also.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

Rookie87 wrote:

Question… if I remember how to count…this should mean the current wide body count is equal to the previous wide body count no?? (Before the 787 deliveries resume)
How many intl routes were the 757s deployed on that are being cut/reduced? Doesn’t seem like it should be much…

Off the top of my head, new planned INTL wide body routes:
JFK:
ATH
DEL
DOH
TLV
SCL

DFW:
TLV
AKL?

LAX:
CHC

SEA:
BLR
~LHR

Can’t remember what else and not sure if LHR at SEA and BOS should be counted by hey, between new and cut what’s the real count??

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

That would make the DL 77E's roughly the same age as the AA 77Es as the AA ones were ordered in 1996 and deliveries stretched from 1999 to 2002.

True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.

JohanTally wrote:

The 8 NZ 77E built 05-07 are much younger than the DL frames and are RR powered. I don't believe NZ has plans to return them to service and they already were to be replaced by the 78J.

Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

The rivalry talk is nonsense. If there is money to be made, then DL, if they still own those 77Es, will offload them. The DFW issue is a non starter. AA was always much larger there, by a wide margin, and DL did itself a favor and a win by de hubbing DFW. Previously owned aircraft entering the AA fleet represent a tiny fraction of the overall fleet, but it is not unheard of. Putting aside merged fleets (US/AA), AA has taken I believe 1 or 2 former Aeromexico 77Es, and a handful of A319s from Frontier.

I don’t believe AA has ever taken 777s except directly from Boeing. AM 777s were GE powered while AA’s are RR powered.

Jeremy

SESGDL wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.



True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.



Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

The rivalry talk is nonsense. If there is money to be made, then DL, if they still own those 77Es, will offload them. The DFW issue is a non starter. AA was always much larger there, by a wide margin, and DL did itself a favor and a win by de hubbing DFW. Previously owned aircraft entering the AA fleet represent a tiny fraction of the overall fleet, but it is not unheard of. Putting aside merged fleets (US/AA), AA has taken I believe 1 or 2 former Aeromexico 77Es, and a handful of A319s from Frontier.

I don’t believe AA has ever taken 777s except directly from Boeing. AM 777s were GE powered while AA’s are RR powered.

Jeremy

Nope, I am wrong. All 47 of AA's 77E's were sourced from Boeing. I thought I had read they had taken one from another carrier for parts. Don't think that was the case. A few A319s though were acquired from Frontier.

Aeromexico had 4 777-200s. Two ended up with Nordwind. One was scrapped. The other went to Austrian Airlines, but was then transferred back to Aercap.

FLALEFTY wrote:

Rookie87 wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

The DL tranche of 7 B77E's were all delivered in 1999, so they might be considered to be a little old. I think a more likely possibility for AA would be to pick up additional B77W's that are currently available. I'm sure lessors would be willing to cut some nice deals to get those early lease return B77W's out of the desert and back generating lease payments.

AA still has 13 more B788s and 30 more B789s on order. Once Boeing gets their act together and starts delivering B787s, AA will have 52 B789s and 37 B788s in their fleet when the current orders play out. By comparison, AA has 47 B77Es, plus they also previously had 9 A333s, 15 A332s & 17 B763ERs that were retired as a result of the pandemic.

AA had many more 763 until the were sold off as 788 and 789 came on property at almost a 1 to 1 rate. Right before Covid the AA widebody fleet would of been closer to 140 frames and the 788s were to replace the last of the 763s. That would of kept the count close to 140 but instead planes were retired without another frame to make up the difference. Now S22 is being cut down and it's hard to forecast their long term international strategy. The XLR will probably arrive after S23 and once it does arrive it could help free up some widebody frames for growth.

JohanTally wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

Rookie87 wrote:

AA had many more 763 until the were sold off as 788 and 789 came on property at almost a 1 to 1 rate. Right before Covid the AA widebody fleet would of been closer to 140 frames and the 788s were to replace the last of the 763s. That would of kept the count close to 140 but instead planes were retired without another frame to make up the difference. Now S22 is being cut down and it's hard to forecast their long term international strategy. The XLR will probably arrive after S23 and once it does arrive it could help free up some widebody frames for growth.

The 767-300ER was a problem aircraft for AA and a drag on operations. It was one of the least reliable jets in the fleet, had a poor dispatch reliability, though it did feature a more comfortable, but very dated product, notably in the back, and a "cut and paste" business class cabin. AA never approached the 763 the way DL and UA have done. Nose to tail overhauls were not performed. Just a premium cabin refresh (done twice) but the back was left essentially unchanged. The first premium cabin overhaul was a mess, with angle flat seats and it all looked cheap. The second attempt was a little better but again wasn't amazing. By the time the pandemic arrived, the AA 767-300ER was isolated to PHL and MIA and flown on secondary routes and markets, for the most part, though not entirely.

SESGDL wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.



True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.



Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

The rivalry talk is nonsense. If there is money to be made, then DL, if they still own those 77Es, will offload them. The DFW issue is a non starter. AA was always much larger there, by a wide margin, and DL did itself a favor and a win by de hubbing DFW. Previously owned aircraft entering the AA fleet represent a tiny fraction of the overall fleet, but it is not unheard of. Putting aside merged fleets (US/AA), AA has taken I believe 1 or 2 former Aeromexico 77Es, and a handful of A319s from Frontier.

I don’t believe AA has ever taken 777s except directly from Boeing. AM 777s were GE powered while AA’s are RR powered.

Jeremy

This is true. All 47 of the AA B77E's were purchased new from Boeing: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/American-Airlines

There were 4 B77Es operated by Aeromexico, of which all were equipped with GE90 engines. The status of the 4 aircraft: 2 sold to Norwind Airlines, 1 scrapped in 2018 after being retired by AM, and 1 was a lease return to AerCap who re-leased it to Austrian Airlines. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Aeromexico

MIflyer12 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

PHLspecial wrote:

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

That's not it. 128 seats/3 FA's isn't a better ratio than the 738's 172 seats/4 FAs, and worse than the A321's 187/4. I'm guessing AA has enough routes with low price elasticity of demand (so the extra seats can be sold only at heavily discounted prices) to justify something mainline smaller than a MAX8. WN has 73G (and MAX7s coming, some day); DL has 319s, 717s, 221s and 223s. It's UA that has been very cautious, not buying anything 73G/319-size new in a decade.

I'd love an AA pilot or dispatcher to outline what the A319 can do that a MAX8 can't, and where those routes exist today in the AA system.

For a start, EYW, EGE, JAC (I think) and a few of the near South America see quite a bit of 319s and the 738/7M8 can’t do these. The 319 fits a size niche as well, on a route like STL-BOS or LGA-FCA, 172 seats might be a bit much.

AA has shown a liking for this size of airplane, note how AA grabbed the F9 319s. I could very much see a MAX7 or 319neo order at some point.

SESGDL wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

Once AA's current B787 orders deliver out (probably by 2025 or 2026) they will have a total of 89 of them in the fleet. Add in the 20 B77Ws that should stick around through the end of this decade and their wide body fleet will consist of 109 aircraft. Just prior to COVID AA had 24 A330s, 17 B763ERs, 47 B77Es and 20 B77Ws, or a total of 108 wide body aircraft. It looks like AA will have all their wide body needs covered in the near future with the new Boeing deliveries. However, I imagine that some, or all of the B77Es will stick around for at least the next 5 to 8 years.



True, but that would assume that DL would be willing to help out AA, one of their bitter rivals dating back to the days when they both used to duke it out at DFW.



Those might be attractive options for AA if they need them. NZ has most of these B77Es stored at VCV awaiting either airline buyers, or the scrapper.

The rivalry talk is nonsense. If there is money to be made, then DL, if they still own those 77Es, will offload them. The DFW issue is a non starter. AA was always much larger there, by a wide margin, and DL did itself a favor and a win by de hubbing DFW. Previously owned aircraft entering the AA fleet represent a tiny fraction of the overall fleet, but it is not unheard of. Putting aside merged fleets (US/AA), AA has taken I believe 1 or 2 former Aeromexico 77Es, and a handful of A319s from Frontier.

I don’t believe AA has ever taken 777s except directly from Boeing. AM 777s were GE powered while AA’s are RR powered.

Jeremy

The former AeroMex 777-200ER with GE engines are in Vienna at Austrian Air waltzing every day to such places as JFK & Tokyo. They join a few 777 that Austrian got in their merger with Lauda Air.

MLIAA wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

That's not it. 128 seats/3 FA's isn't a better ratio than the 738's 172 seats/4 FAs, and worse than the A321's 187/4. I'm guessing AA has enough routes with low price elasticity of demand (so the extra seats can be sold only at heavily discounted prices) to justify something mainline smaller than a MAX8. WN has 73G (and MAX7s coming, some day); DL has 319s, 717s, 221s and 223s. It's UA that has been very cautious, not buying anything 73G/319-size new in a decade.

I'd love an AA pilot or dispatcher to outline what the A319 can do that a MAX8 can't, and where those routes exist today in the AA system.

For a start, EYW, EGE, JAC (I think) and a few of the near South America see quite a bit of 319s and the 738/7M8 can’t do these. The 319 fits a size niche as well, on a route like STL-BOS or LGA-FCA, 172 seats might be a bit much.

AA has shown a liking for this size of airplane, note how AA grabbed the F9 319s. I could very much see a MAX7 or 319neo order at some point.

Yes EYW, EGE, JAC and PEI require the A319's takeoff performance. TGU also needed the A319 until last month before the service was moved to XPL. On other routes 319's takeoff performance is very advantageous for routes out of UIO, MEX, BOG, STT.

MIflyer12 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

PHLspecial wrote:

Wont AA dream scenario would be only two narrowbody types? The Max8 and A321neo? Unless the Max8 can't fly the A319 missions. I don't think AA would get rid of the A319 or A320 until 2030.

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

That's not it. 128 seats/3 FA's isn't a better ratio than the 738's 172 seats/4 FAs, and worse than the A321's 187/4. I'm guessing AA has enough routes with low price elasticity of demand (so the extra seats can be sold only at heavily discounted prices) to justify something mainline smaller than a MAX8.

The low price elasticity of demand was my point. AA likely has enough routes that will profitably fill 127 seats, but not 172 or 187 seats. Sure FA's aren't insanely expensive, but why increase your trip costs in that area by 25% for no revenue benefit?

USAirKid wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

AA has previously said that the A319 fits a niche for them. Thats why they acquired more of the type from F9.

I'm guessing part of that is the A319 requires one less FA than the 737-800, 737-8, A321, or A321 Neo.

That's not it. 128 seats/3 FA's isn't a better ratio than the 738's 172 seats/4 FAs, and worse than the A321's 187/4. I'm guessing AA has enough routes with low price elasticity of demand (so the extra seats can be sold only at heavily discounted prices) to justify something mainline smaller than a MAX8.

The low price elasticity of demand was my point. AA likely has enough routes that will profitably fill 127 seats, but not 172 or 187 seats. Sure FA's aren't insanely expensive, but why increase your trip costs in that area by 25% for no revenue benefit?

I'm surprised AA doesn't run the A319 closer to 150 seats to maximize FAs per passengers since its all about the numbers game now. Though I would think those planes would suffer a major performance hit if actually loaded to 150. I'm not sure if they would be able to take-off from EGE and EYW etc... Again it's about profits? Why not run it at 150.