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TWA772LR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 1:36 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Isn't Bergen also a hub for offshore petroleum activity?

Stavanger is where it's really at for lol in Norway.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 3:49 am

jb1087xna wrote:
intotheair wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:

SK flies the route already and is in Star so I would think they could take on pax too.


They can, but will they? Even though SK are in Star, they're not in the UA/LH/AC JV, and UA and SK aren't exactly close. I reckon UA would want to keep as much of the revenue on UA or LH/AC metal.


Maybe not, but anybody originating in EWR would now have a stop added when I assume they could earn the same benefits and just fly n/s on SK.


I’m sure they’d let people get a refund, but from a revenue perspective leveraging JV capacity would be much better. Any time I’ve had a misconnect or RE-route on UA to/from Europe they always put me on LH
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 2:46 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Is Bergen mostly related to the cruises' demand?


While Bergen seems to be a really nice place the flight, I am sure about that, should mainly serve the Cruises.


Pre-pandemic, Bergen was becoming a much larger point of entry into Norway than Oslo, given its proximity to the Fjords and to the vast network of ferries (and cruise lines, local and international) that travel those waters. The main tourist sites of Norway are much easier to access through Bergen, be it on a cruise, ferry, or bus/car.

UA has never really been all that strong in Scandinavia. I don't know if anything has changed with the SK in *A and metal neutral/immunity, but UA has mostly served the region seasonally and the entire network is pretty much built out on the old CO platform of 757 service to OSL, CPH, and ARN.


Continental was very strong in Norhern Europe/Scandinavia, at least much stronger than any other US Airline. Before the merger there were flights to Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Hamburg, all of them yearround. All of them operated on 757s (I am not too sure about Oslo). Even with 757s thats a pretty good Footprint.

When United took over -- Copenhagen got canceled right away in 2012, then Stockholm and Oslo went seasonal in 2015, Oslo got canceled in 2016. Then Hamburg seasonal in 2017, canceled in 2018. Now comes Stockholm ...

Well Continental had a whole different strategy in Europe, serve secondary places with a decent premium demand yearround on a Narrowbody or small Widebody, and this worked good.
United loves to fly to the big Airports plus Leisure stuff popular with Americans for a few months in Summer.
I think none of these ex Continental secondary non-leisure routes are left, the only ones may be Barcelona and Berlin, both launched when the Airports were much smaller and before the Tourist Invasion.
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.
 
ncflyer
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 3:01 pm

If I'm not mistaken none of the USA airlines have much of a presence in Scandinavia.

It's easy to forget these countries have small populations-- though big tourism. Norway 5.4MM, Sweden 10MM, Finland 5.5MM, Denmark 5.8MM. Perspective: Ohio population 11.8MM.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 3:16 pm

DLHAM wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

While Bergen seems to be a really nice place the flight, I am sure about that, should mainly serve the Cruises.


Pre-pandemic, Bergen was becoming a much larger point of entry into Norway than Oslo, given its proximity to the Fjords and to the vast network of ferries (and cruise lines, local and international) that travel those waters. The main tourist sites of Norway are much easier to access through Bergen, be it on a cruise, ferry, or bus/car.

UA has never really been all that strong in Scandinavia. I don't know if anything has changed with the SK in *A and metal neutral/immunity, but UA has mostly served the region seasonally and the entire network is pretty much built out on the old CO platform of 757 service to OSL, CPH, and ARN.


Continental was very strong in Norhern Europe/Scandinavia, at least much stronger than any other US Airline. Before the merger there were flights to Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Hamburg, all of them yearround. All of them operated on 757s (I am not too sure about Oslo). Even with 757s thats a pretty good Footprint.

When United took over -- Copenhagen got canceled right away in 2012, then Stockholm and Oslo went seasonal in 2015, Oslo got canceled in 2016. Then Hamburg seasonal in 2017, canceled in 2018. Now comes Stockholm ...

Well Continental had a whole different strategy in Europe, serve secondary places with a decent premium demand yearround on a Narrowbody or small Widebody, and this worked good.
United loves to fly to the big Airports plus Leisure stuff popular with Americans for a few months in Summer.
I think none of these ex Continental secondary non-leisure routes are left, the only ones may be Barcelona and Berlin, both launched when the Airports were much smaller and before the Tourist Invasion.
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


Don't forget that CO did that when they were in Skyteam not Star, so I'm sure that had some bearing on this. Regardless, it is disappointing to see that these are cut and UA can't produce 3-4 752's to keep the routes especially HAM, even though they still have stored 752's to spare. With $ to Euro parity, traveling TATL for US peeps hasn't been this cheap in a long time.

Perhaps 2023 will change things, unless we are in full recession.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 3:24 pm

United787 wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Isn't Bergen also a hub for offshore petroleum activity?


Yes it is and since UA is the petro airline (IAH), I am sure that will help.


Stavanger as well. It had all business non-stop service to Houston for some time. I went there often on NATO business but the oil biz was huge.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 4:42 pm

fun2fly wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Pre-pandemic, Bergen was becoming a much larger point of entry into Norway than Oslo, given its proximity to the Fjords and to the vast network of ferries (and cruise lines, local and international) that travel those waters. The main tourist sites of Norway are much easier to access through Bergen, be it on a cruise, ferry, or bus/car.

UA has never really been all that strong in Scandinavia. I don't know if anything has changed with the SK in *A and metal neutral/immunity, but UA has mostly served the region seasonally and the entire network is pretty much built out on the old CO platform of 757 service to OSL, CPH, and ARN.


Continental was very strong in Norhern Europe/Scandinavia, at least much stronger than any other US Airline. Before the merger there were flights to Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Hamburg, all of them yearround. All of them operated on 757s (I am not too sure about Oslo). Even with 757s thats a pretty good Footprint.

When United took over -- Copenhagen got canceled right away in 2012, then Stockholm and Oslo went seasonal in 2015, Oslo got canceled in 2016. Then Hamburg seasonal in 2017, canceled in 2018. Now comes Stockholm ...

Well Continental had a whole different strategy in Europe, serve secondary places with a decent premium demand yearround on a Narrowbody or small Widebody, and this worked good.
United loves to fly to the big Airports plus Leisure stuff popular with Americans for a few months in Summer.
I think none of these ex Continental secondary non-leisure routes are left, the only ones may be Barcelona and Berlin, both launched when the Airports were much smaller and before the Tourist Invasion.
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


Don't forget that CO did that when they were in Skyteam not Star, so I'm sure that had some bearing on this. Regardless, it is disappointing to see that these are cut and UA can't produce 3-4 752's to keep the routes especially HAM, even though they still have stored 752's to spare. With $ to Euro parity, traveling TATL for US peeps hasn't been this cheap in a long time.

Perhaps 2023 will change things, unless we are in full recession.


If I am not mistaken, all of the CO, then UA flights to Scandinavia were seasonal, and all on 757s. Perhaps when there are ample 321XLRs on property, these routes can and will have a more viable future (in an environment not stressed by a pandemic, a war, the specter of a global recession, high oil prices, inflation, and workforce constraints.

As to the non-Scandi route being talked about, When UA pulled EWR-HAM, which by the time it happened, in 2019, was up gauged to a 767-300ER, there was speculation that EK would return to the market, from JFK, with a fifth freedom route, but presumably the pandemic is the major reason for that. A friend who works in route planning at United told me at the time that the HAM was bleeding cash.
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:10 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.
 
Golfmikey
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:27 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

Continental was very strong in Norhern Europe/Scandinavia, at least much stronger than any other US Airline. Before the merger there were flights to Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Hamburg, all of them yearround. All of them operated on 757s (I am not too sure about Oslo). Even with 757s thats a pretty good Footprint.

When United took over -- Copenhagen got canceled right away in 2012, then Stockholm and Oslo went seasonal in 2015, Oslo got canceled in 2016. Then Hamburg seasonal in 2017, canceled in 2018. Now comes Stockholm ...

Well Continental had a whole different strategy in Europe, serve secondary places with a decent premium demand yearround on a Narrowbody or small Widebody, and this worked good.
United loves to fly to the big Airports plus Leisure stuff popular with Americans for a few months in Summer.
I think none of these ex Continental secondary non-leisure routes are left, the only ones may be Barcelona and Berlin, both launched when the Airports were much smaller and before the Tourist Invasion.
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


Don't forget that CO did that when they were in Skyteam not Star, so I'm sure that had some bearing on this. Regardless, it is disappointing to see that these are cut and UA can't produce 3-4 752's to keep the routes especially HAM, even though they still have stored 752's to spare. With $ to Euro parity, traveling TATL for US peeps hasn't been this cheap in a long time.

Perhaps 2023 will change things, unless we are in full recession.


If I am not mistaken, all of the CO, then UA flights to Scandinavia were seasonal, and all on 757s. Perhaps when there are ample 321XLRs on property, these routes can and will have a more viable future (in an environment not stressed by a pandemic, a war, the specter of a global recession, high oil prices, inflation, and workforce constraints.

As to the non-Scandi route being talked about, When UA pulled EWR-HAM, which by the time it happened, in 2019, was up gauged to a 767-300ER, there was speculation that EK would return to the market, from JFK, with a fifth freedom route, but presumably the pandemic is the major reason for that. A friend who works in route planning at United told me at the time that the HAM was bleeding cash.



for sure ARN was year round it was 3 times weekly in the winter i forget about the rest...i agree i think that in 2024 there will be a big expansion back to secondary markets that were cut...a few already discussed OSL,CPH,HAM...plus some old routes STR, BFS, MAN, BHX, BRS, and maybe new routes in DUS, BOD
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:47 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
If I am not mistaken, all of the CO, then UA flights to Scandinavia were seasonal, and all on 757s. Perhaps when there are ample 321XLRs on property, these routes can and will have a more viable future (in an environment not stressed by a pandemic, a war, the specter of a global recession, high oil prices, inflation, and workforce constraints.
...
A friend who works in route planning at United told me at the time that the HAM was bleeding cash.


Indeed Continental operated all of them yearround, on a 757.
Copenhagen was cut in 2012, Oslo and Stockholm went seasonal in 2015. Oslo then cut in 2016, Stockholm now (hasnt operated since 2019 I think).
Yes I am very sure most of the ex Continental 757 EU markets will return on the A321XLR.
...
Yeah EWR-HAM just does not work as a seasonal flight, they had to learn that lesson.
Last edited by DLHAM on Wed May 11, 2022 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:48 pm

intotheair wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:54 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
intotheair wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.

Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.
 
SESGDL
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 5:55 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
intotheair wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I tend to claim that the much smaller Continental back then had Europe covered better than United now.


I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.


Which articles are these? I find it highly unlikely that UA's European network is larger than AA's and DL's combined by any serious metric. I've seen the capacity stats and UA is definitely the largest by capacity this summer, but nothing close to the magnitude of double or anywhere near it.

Jeremy
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 6:44 pm

cosyr wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
intotheair wrote:

I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.

Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.


Thats exactly what I meant, not total seats but general coverage/footprint/destinations. I just compared Uniteds 2022 Europe Destinations to Continentals 2010 Europe Destinations and indeed United serves 28 vs 25 with Continental in 2010. BUT 9 of Uniteds Destinations are seasonal and in many cases only a few weekly flights. On Continental I think most routes were yearround and daily in Summer, even some secondary places with 10-11 weekly flights. The majority of seats that United offers to Europe today is going into Hubs.

Unfortunately on the Atlantic United becomes more and more the old United focusing on Hubs (+a some leisure stuff which is new). I really miss Continental where I could fly one-Stop from HAM to JAX or BHX to CMH, for example. Hope this returns with the XLR. If United does not do it then AA will, they'll have a headstart because they receive their XLRs much earlier, as long as there are no additional delays. UA should think about "occupying" some attractive secondary Destinations in Europe with the 757 already before AA comes.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 7:17 pm

cosyr wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
intotheair wrote:

I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.

Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.


Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 7:20 pm

DLHAM wrote:
If United does not do it then AA will, they'll have a headstart because they receive their XLRs much earlier, as long as there are no additional delays. UA should think about "occupying" some attractive secondary Destinations in Europe with the 757 already before AA comes.


Both AA and UA will receive the 321XLR in 2024 assuming the delay Airbus announced is the only one. You are trying really hard to sell to folks that somehow UA is a shadow of its former self in Europe. It's not. Yes UA has cut some of the secondary destinations CO flew to before the merger but they have also added a number of cities that neither airline flew to. Overall the UA of today is quite a bit larger than CO/UA was to Europe and as others have mentioned UA is slated to be the largest airline between the US and Europe this year.
 
codc10
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 7:22 pm

DLHAM wrote:
cosyr wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.

Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.


Thats exactly what I meant, not total seats but general coverage/footprint/destinations. I just compared Uniteds 2022 Europe Destinations to Continentals 2010 Europe Destinations and indeed United serves 28 vs 25 with Continental in 2010. BUT 9 of Uniteds Destinations are seasonal and in many cases only a few weekly flights. On Continental I think most routes were yearround and daily in Summer, even some secondary places with 10-11 weekly flights. The majority of seats that United offers to Europe today is going into Hubs.

Unfortunately on the Atlantic United becomes more and more the old United focusing on Hubs (+a some leisure stuff which is new). I really miss Continental where I could fly one-Stop from HAM to JAX or BHX to CMH, for example. Hope this returns with the XLR. If United does not do it then AA will, they'll have a headstart because they receive their XLRs much earlier, as long as there are no additional delays. UA should think about "occupying" some attractive secondary Destinations in Europe with the 757 already before AA comes.


The A++ JV is a revenue-share model, which trues up the split among partners based on a formula of revenue generated versus capacity flown. If a particular market in a given season does not generate adequate (essentially) RASM performance, it makes more financial sense for UA to flow that traffic over a JV hub.

CO wasn’t a JV participant in its TATL heyday, so it’s opportunity cost calculus for marginal flying was a little different. Not to say one approach is better than the other, but UA has generated greater TATL returns since the merger than CO could ever dream of.

One thing I’d love to see in the future with the 321XLR is expansion of UA TATL flying from growing US markets into partner EU hubs. Think… markets in the Southeast to FRA/MUC that currently can’t support LH widebodies. That would address the loss of some one-stop itineraries to Europe that ended with some EWR flying consolidated over JV hubs, and enable more reliable connections than are possible at Newark, or really any Northeast hub.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 7:23 pm

SESGDL wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
intotheair wrote:

I don't think that's accurate. UA flies more people across the Atlantic than they did 10 years ago. They have a very aggressive schedule this summer and could end up as the #1 US TATL carrier. (Not sure if the 777 PW issues could affect that, but that's at least what they're planning.) Sure, it was a little disappointing to see UA cut back on all those secondary UK/Ireland and Scandinavia routes, but I'd argue that UA's Europe network overall is more competitive and robust than it ever has been.

Compared to 10 years ago, UA is much bigger and has increased share in LHR, CDG, and AMS, they're not really flying crummy 757s to major destinations anymore, they renegotiated the A++ terms with LH to allow them to add more flights to FRA/MUC/ZRH on UA metal, and they've added a lot of other secondary European routes. It's a much more compelling offering than anything either UA and CO had pre-merger or in the few years after the merger. Let's hope they can maybe add back some of the other marginal flying that they cut a few years ago.


Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.


Which articles are these? I find it highly unlikely that UA's European network is larger than AA's and DL's combined by any serious metric. I've seen the capacity stats and UA is definitely the largest by capacity this summer, but nothing close to the magnitude of double or anywhere near it.

Jeremy


Patrick Qayle, their SVP for International, has been quoted in several business publications stating this. I don't think that necessarily means bigger than AA and DL combined though that has been mentioned (google it).

Last month, the airline said that it plans to boost transatlantic passenger-carrying capacity by 25 percent compared with pre-pandemic levels. Patrick Quayle, senior vice president of United's international network, explained that the move would be the biggest single transatlantic increase the carrier has ever made. "We will be the largest carrier across the transatlantic," Quayle told CBS News.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 9:52 pm

United1 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
If United does not do it then AA will, they'll have a headstart because they receive their XLRs much earlier, as long as there are no additional delays. UA should think about "occupying" some attractive secondary Destinations in Europe with the 757 already before AA comes.


Both AA and UA will receive the 321XLR in 2024 assuming the delay Airbus announced is the only one. You are trying really hard to sell to folks that somehow UA is a shadow of its former self in Europe. It's not. Yes UA has cut some of the secondary destinations CO flew to before the merger but they have also added a number of cities that neither airline flew to. Overall the UA of today is quite a bit larger than CO/UA was to Europe and as others have mentioned UA is slated to be the largest airline between the US and Europe this year.


American originally was to receive several XLRs by the end of next year, Uniteds deliveries start in Fall 2024 if I recall correctly. By the time UA gets their first XLR American will have received around half of their 50. I once saw a Delivery schedule for AAs XLRs, cant find it anymore unfortunately. Of course now the delay changes everything, and somehow I have the Feeling that this wont be the only delay.

I dont want to sell people that UA is a shadow of its former self, just that Continental had a somehow better footprint -- with a lower overall capacity for sure. But the XLR will change this for sure.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 10:11 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
cosyr wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.

Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.


Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.


For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.
 
ScorpioMC3
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 10:33 pm

RMTAviation wrote:
Does anybody have an idea of how many crew each United Airlines flight is staffed with? And which cabin classes?


Depends on the aircraft and route. Long haul routes have contractual requirements. Short haul/domestic are staffed with minimum crew.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed May 11, 2022 11:02 pm

DLHAM wrote:
United1 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
If United does not do it then AA will, they'll have a headstart because they receive their XLRs much earlier, as long as there are no additional delays. UA should think about "occupying" some attractive secondary Destinations in Europe with the 757 already before AA comes.


Both AA and UA will receive the 321XLR in 2024 assuming the delay Airbus announced is the only one. You are trying really hard to sell to folks that somehow UA is a shadow of its former self in Europe. It's not. Yes UA has cut some of the secondary destinations CO flew to before the merger but they have also added a number of cities that neither airline flew to. Overall the UA of today is quite a bit larger than CO/UA was to Europe and as others have mentioned UA is slated to be the largest airline between the US and Europe this year.


American originally was to receive several XLRs by the end of next year, Uniteds deliveries start in Fall 2024 if I recall correctly. By the time UA gets their first XLR American will have received around half of their 50. I once saw a Delivery schedule for AAs XLRs, cant find it anymore unfortunately. Of course now the delay changes everything, and somehow I have the Feeling that this wont be the only delay.

I dont want to sell people that UA is a shadow of its former self, just that Continental had a somehow better footprint -- with a lower overall capacity for sure. But the XLR will change this for sure.


Even if AA gets the A321XLR before UA (and it's entirely possible they will) AA is the one starting from scratch. UA has 40 752s and while they don't use all of them for TATL any more they certainly can. There are a lot of moving pieces and parts right now and UA is having to make some network choices (see the EWR-Hawaii cuts as an example) to free up aircraft. Let's see what happens once the PW 772s come back online and Boeing resumes delivery of the 787. I think you will see UA go back into some of the secondary markets in Europe....probably with the 752.

As for CO having a better footprint I would challenge that and say that CO was operating in a different era and with different network partners. I am sure even if CO remained independent their network would have changed dramatically over the past decade.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 12:04 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Even though they have cut some former CO destinations, UA today is bigger than CO was pre merger, but CO flew to more destinations than UA pre merger, so combined, UA has really had a strong impact on transatlantic since 2010.


Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.


For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.
 
Somerandom787
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 12:25 am

UA will probably return to ARN in 2023 once the PW 772s are back in service but before the a321XLRs are introduced. ARN was probably cut because they used PW 772s on Transcons/Hawaii and UA decided to use a 757 that would be flying to ARN to do a Transcon or a Hawaii flight that used to be a PW 772
 
codc10
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 2:36 am

MDC862 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.


For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.


That characterization more aptly describes US rather than Continental. CO really did not have much of leisure focus on TATL until 2005 or so, and served virtually all markets year-round. If anything, CO’s TATL niche was a low-volume, business-oriented model. Small gauge (757/762) even to major business destinations, with particular emphasis on a J product that it did not heavily discount or make easily-accessible to upgrades. Generally speaking, the objective was to extract a nonstop premium for EWR traffic by overflying a European hub, and to backfill that with flow from elsewhere in the USA via EWR.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 11:12 am

MDC862 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.


For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.


From the late 1990s onward, Continental had built a reputation for itself for being a cut above the rest of the industry and developed a significant book of business focused on corporate bookings, particularly in the NY Area and of course, Houston. The NYC area being the largest O&D market in the country and a huge driver of corporate traffic pre-pandemic, Continental certainly benefited from having a unified hub, under one roof, at one major NY airport.

Continental did expand to many secondary and tertiary cities through the use of 757s on many TATL flights, and was always short wide bodies resulting in 757s sometimes flying into major markets like LHR. But to suggest that CO had a network that was "minimal" to major international locations is simply not true. NRT, LHR, HHG, CDG, FRA, MXP, MEX, GRU, EZE, TLV, BOM, DEL, etc....would hardly be perceived as having a minimal footprint in major international locations.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 11:21 am

codc10 wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.


That characterization more aptly describes US rather than Continental. CO really did not have much of leisure focus on TATL until 2005 or so, and served virtually all markets year-round. If anything, CO’s TATL niche was a low-volume, business-oriented model. Small gauge (757/762) even to major business destinations, with particular emphasis on a J product that it did not heavily discount or make easily-accessible to upgrades. Generally speaking, the objective was to extract a nonstop premium for EWR traffic by overflying a European hub, and to backfill that with flow from elsewhere in the USA via EWR.


Compared to CO, US Airways' international long haul network, was skeletal at best. It evolved to a decent, not quite marginal player, but a third tier one, and helped substantially by its membership in Star Alliance, but it was not big. The US wide body fleet at its peak consisted of just 9 A330-300s, 10 767-200ERs, and toward the end, 15 A330-200s (by then the 762s had been removed from service. US had no service to Asia. There were fantasies about PHL-NRT but it never became reality. Deep South America had very little coverage, other than Brazil toward the end. There was PHL-TLV which AA quickly dropped post-merger as it evidently wasn't profitable. US was heavily dependent on LH for traffic and at one point had several frequencies to FRA and MUC out of PHL and CLT, which made sense, but absent a huge anchor on the European end, would not have worked.

Continental's BusinessFirst product was also pretty solid for its time, and more cutting edge. CO's Newark hub was known to be among the most profitable in the industry and a major focus for UA in the merger.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 11:40 am

codc10 wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.


That characterization more aptly describes US rather than Continental. CO really did not have much of leisure focus on TATL until 2005 or so, and served virtually all markets year-round. If anything, CO’s TATL niche was a low-volume, business-oriented model. Small gauge (757/762) even to major business destinations, with particular emphasis on a J product that it did not heavily discount or make easily-accessible to upgrades. Generally speaking, the objective was to extract a nonstop premium for EWR traffic by overflying a European hub, and to backfill that with flow from elsewhere in the USA via EWR.


This ^

Without the scale of United or American (and Delta post-merger) and without the lucrative JBAs with LH, BA etc Continental was a “niche” TATL operator, but not a leisure carrier. All of their TATL markets were year-round, and for many of those ‘secondary’ markets CO to EWR was their only NYC link, and while some people on the other side of the Hudson scoff at EWR being an airport for Manhattan, when your options are a convenient flight to EWR or a connection at LHR, FRA or CDG, EWR looks attractive.

Admittedly anecdotal and niche, but I know someone who travelled regularly (every second month or so) from Manchester to Norfolk on business in the 1995-2005 time period. CO via EWR was hands down the most convenient option. Take a few of those sort of connections, amalgamate them via a hub, and you could have a viable business.

Times changed though. Firstly, the GFC hit the ‘secondary’ markets disproportionally harder than London, Frankfurt and New York, at least after the initial banking collapse stabilized. This just exacerbated a trend, think how many Mid West cities have much less service now than 20-30 years ago. Secondly, the merger both increased Continental’s cost base to United’s level, and added the LH JBA. Routes that were once profitable started to wane, and the opportunity cost of cutting a market started to look more attractive when you have a partner to serve it.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 2:38 pm

MDC862 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Thanks. For a time, CO was, I think, the most "international" of the US carriers, for a time, meaning it flew to the most destinations outside the United States. I don't exactly remember what time frame that was, as it relates to proximity to the merger, but thinking it was in the latter years of CO's existence as a stand alone carrier.


For the whole of the 2000s, right up until the merger, Continental was the only US carrier that was larger international than domestic, measured by ASMs.

IIRC for most of that same time period they also had more international ASMs than any other airline, but I’m less certain about that.



They might have been, but they had coverage to "secondary cities" and minimal to the major international locations. They knew they couldn't compete with the big 3, so their route structure was indicative of that and more leisure oriented.


As codc10 and ContinentalEWR already said their route network was anything but leisure oriented, especially compared to United today, just look at the Destinations they served.
They did not have to hide at all, not from UA, not from US, not from AA and not from NW. Their toughest competitior IMO was Delta, but they fought hard and sucessful in most cases. They served all major cities/places, but due to a lack of widebodies with 767-200s and even 757s in many cases, but this did not hurt their sucess, they were still popular especially with Business travelers as they went for frequency instead of capacity with their smaller airplanes.

Also they were not hiding at secondary Airports, this was a very sucessful Business model. They had a lot of ETOPS rated high MTOW 757 equipped with a proper longhaul cabin and used these to Airports with small to medium but decent Premium demand where it would be hard to operate a widebody yearround. Because of the low operating cost of the 757 and only 15/16 Business seats to sell they could even offer these markets yearround, which is essential to attract Business travelers.
And on many of these routes they were even the only Airline flying nonstop to the US, where could ask even more for tickets.

Their sucess on transatlantic flights and the fact that they did not have to hide can be seen clearly at HAM for example, where they even managed to fight and win against direct competition with !Emirates! on the same market, flying very luxurious 777s and A340s. Everyone was sure (including me) that Emirate comes to stay forever and Continental will disappear.
In Berlin they competed directly against a Delta 767 and it was Delta who gave up and canceled the flight. But against other American Airlines they did not have to hide at all because they had the best product by far IMO, and many awards back then confirmed it.

I hope in the Route/Network Planning Department of United there are a few of the old CO employees left who know what these XLRs are good for, but AFAIK they are going on those secondary markets anyway, next to higher frequency flights to primary markets of course and some seasonal Destinations upgraded to yearround.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 4:21 pm

There's not a lot of info and the A321XLR specs, but note that it will have a permanent rear center tank and an optional auxiliary center tank probably in the rear of the forward bin. Airbus says the range is up to 4,700NM, which is longer than the 777-200A. I wonder if UA is buying the ACT and what the range is without it?

Compared to a 3,915 NM range of the 752, the extra 800 NM could add a couple of hours of flying meaning no winter fuel stops and extending the longest route from previously flown EWR-TXL to something like EWR-NAP/DBV or ORD-VIE.

Of course, runway length may be an issue and heavy Winter winds could affect the longest routes, but the XLR will surely open up EWR/IAD to parts of Eastern and Southern Europe with low operating cost flights.

Additionally, the XLR can operate from UA hubs to the top half of South America and should be able to make ORD/IAH to Hawaii.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 5:16 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
There's not a lot of info and the A321XLR specs, but note that it will have a permanent rear center tank and an optional auxiliary center tank probably in the rear of the forward bin. Airbus says the range is up to 4,700NM, which is longer than the 777-200A. I wonder if UA is buying the ACT and what the range is without it?

Compared to a 3,915 NM range of the 752, the extra 800 NM could add a couple of hours of flying meaning no winter fuel stops and extending the longest route from previously flown EWR-TXL to something like EWR-NAP/DBV or ORD-VIE.

Of course, runway length may be an issue and heavy Winter winds could affect the longest routes, but the XLR will surely open up EWR/IAD to parts of Eastern and Southern Europe with low operating cost flights.

Additionally, the XLR can operate from UA hubs to the top half of South America and should be able to make ORD/IAH to Hawaii.


Could the XLR make destinations like MVD or Bolivia? Dont know if those are viable markets, just wonder about the distance.
 
dcajet
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 11:53 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
There's not a lot of info and the A321XLR specs, but note that it will have a permanent rear center tank and an optional auxiliary center tank probably in the rear of the forward bin. Airbus says the range is up to 4,700NM, which is longer than the 777-200A. I wonder if UA is buying the ACT and what the range is without it?

Compared to a 3,915 NM range of the 752, the extra 800 NM could add a couple of hours of flying meaning no winter fuel stops and extending the longest route from previously flown EWR-TXL to something like EWR-NAP/DBV or ORD-VIE.

Of course, runway length may be an issue and heavy Winter winds could affect the longest routes, but the XLR will surely open up EWR/IAD to parts of Eastern and Southern Europe with low operating cost flights.

Additionally, the XLR can operate from UA hubs to the top half of South America and should be able to make ORD/IAH to Hawaii.


Could the XLR make destinations like MVD or Bolivia? Dont know if those are viable markets, just wonder about the distance.


Per Airbus:

Image

Bolivia should not be a problem from IAH, the return has to be from VVI not from LPB due to the airfield's height. MVD is questionable from IAH, doable from MIA or FLL.
Last edited by dcajet on Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 12:08 am

Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 12:37 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
There's not a lot of info and the A321XLR specs, but note that it will have a permanent rear center tank and an optional auxiliary center tank probably in the rear of the forward bin. Airbus says the range is up to 4,700NM, which is longer than the 777-200A. I wonder if UA is buying the ACT and what the range is without it?

Compared to a 3,915 NM range of the 752, the extra 800 NM could add a couple of hours of flying meaning no winter fuel stops and extending the longest route from previously flown EWR-TXL to something like EWR-NAP/DBV or ORD-VIE.

Of course, runway length may be an issue and heavy Winter winds could affect the longest routes, but the XLR will surely open up EWR/IAD to parts of Eastern and Southern Europe with low operating cost flights.

Additionally, the XLR can operate from UA hubs to the top half of South America and should be able to make ORD/IAH to Hawaii.


This is a good question regarding the extra ACT. Without the extra ACT the Brochure Range of the XLR is at 8.050km. For a westbound transatlantic flight in winter you have to subtract around 15% from that which would make 6.840km, still a lot more than the LR can do (the Rear Center Tank holds a lot more fuel than the 3 ACT on the LR combined), enough for yearround service from EWR to places like HEL, WAW, PRG, VIE but not enough for Southern Italy or Croatia, but these would be Summer seasonals anyway so doable. I think these 8.050km (=6.840km) are with 200 passengers, with United most likely seating only around 160-170 the range should be higher.

The XLR with the ACT has a Brochure Range of 8.700km (7.400km real World) with 200 passengers and the ACT around 2/3 filled. With a full ACT but only 150 passengers the Brochure Range is even 9.075km (7.700 real World) -- this would be even enough for EWR to Rio, Moscow and almost Athens. Pretty impressive.
ORD/IAH-Hawaii are well within range even without that ACT.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 12:43 am

United1 wrote:
Even if AA gets the A321XLR before UA (and it's entirely possible they will) AA is the one starting from scratch. UA has 40 752s and while they don't use all of them for TATL any more they certainly can. There are a lot of moving pieces and parts right now and UA is having to make some network choices (see the EWR-Hawaii cuts as an example) to free up aircraft. Let's see what happens once the PW 772s come back online and Boeing resumes delivery of the 787. I think you will see UA go back into some of the secondary markets in Europe....probably with the 752.


Now found that AA XLR Delivery Schedule: 8 in 2023, 22 in 2024 and 20 in 2025. This of course has moved back now ...
United is scheduled to receive their first one sometime in Fall 2024, when AA already operates at least 20-25, according to the old schedule.
Yes AA has to start from Scratch, this is why I said United should start already next Summer to occupy some attractive secondary places in Europe with the 757, to later switch to the XLR. AA will have a much harder time then to get these work as the second one to the party (they might have a hard time anyway because ... well because its AA ...). And I do not mean flights to places like BGO, KEF or OPO for a few months in Summer, I mean yearround service to BHX, GLA, OSL, HAM, DUS, LYS etc.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 2:58 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.


I found it to be a DRAMATIC improvement over the current situation… in every way!! A quantum leap forward.
 
Tyroneguy
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 3:04 pm

DLHAM wrote:
United1 wrote:
Even if AA gets the A321XLR before UA (and it's entirely possible they will) AA is the one starting from scratch. UA has 40 752s and while they don't use all of them for TATL any more they certainly can. There are a lot of moving pieces and parts right now and UA is having to make some network choices (see the EWR-Hawaii cuts as an example) to free up aircraft. Let's see what happens once the PW 772s come back online and Boeing resumes delivery of the 787. I think you will see UA go back into some of the secondary markets in Europe....probably with the 752.


Now found that AA XLR Delivery Schedule: 8 in 2023, 22 in 2024 and 20 in 2025. This of course has moved back now ...
United is scheduled to receive their first one sometime in Fall 2024, when AA already operates at least 20-25, according to the old schedule.
Yes AA has to start from Scratch, this is why I said United should start already next Summer to occupy some attractive secondary places in Europe with the 757, to later switch to the XLR. AA will have a much harder time then to get these work as the second one to the party (they might have a hard time anyway because ... well because its AA ...). And I do not mean flights to places like BGO, KEF or OPO for a few months in Summer, I mean yearround service to BHX, GLA, OSL, HAM, DUS, LYS etc.


United inflight is being trained on A321s now in their annual recurrent training so that they're qualified for 2023.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 3:12 pm

 
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cosyr
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 3:13 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ub-newark/ I know what you mean about not as warm and comfortable, but it reminds me a lot of the United Club in HKG. Personally, I don't mind different United Clubs having different character from one another. I kind of like this space, I just don't like it's location. This biggest location is far from more than 2/3 of the gates in Terminal C.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 3:19 pm

cosyr wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ub-newark/ I know what you mean about not as warm and comfortable, but it reminds me a lot of the United Club in HKG. Personally, I don't mind different United Clubs having different character from one another. I kind of like this space, I just don't like it's location. This biggest location is far from more than 2/3 of the gates in Terminal C.


Fully agree that the big downside is it being in C3, making it far from a large majority of the gates.

Is there any even medium-term plan to upgrade the C1 club? I guess it will become slightly less crowded now but it is still so old.
 
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 5:15 pm

codc10 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.


I found it to be a DRAMATIC improvement over the current situation… in every way!! A quantum leap forward.


Agreed! I toured in person and it's simply gorgeous. I actually do find it warm and comfy feeling with the wood tones, touches of brick, but still very modern and a very 'cool' vibe. Thrilled that showers were included, that bathrooms are gorgeous! Very well done, United. The fellow customers that got a sneak peak last night were just as enthusiastic and impressed with the massive club!
 
SBAer
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 5:36 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ub-newark/ I know what you mean about not as warm and comfortable, but it reminds me a lot of the United Club in HKG. Personally, I don't mind different United Clubs having different character from one another. I kind of like this space, I just don't like it's location. This biggest location is far from more than 2/3 of the gates in Terminal C.


Fully agree that the big downside is it being in C3, making it far from a large majority of the gates.

Is there any even medium-term plan to upgrade the C1 club? I guess it will become slightly less crowded now but it is still so old.


C74 club closes 5/19 for renovations from what I read
 
dmstorm22
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 5:58 pm

SBAer wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ub-newark/ I know what you mean about not as warm and comfortable, but it reminds me a lot of the United Club in HKG. Personally, I don't mind different United Clubs having different character from one another. I kind of like this space, I just don't like it's location. This biggest location is far from more than 2/3 of the gates in Terminal C.


Fully agree that the big downside is it being in C3, making it far from a large majority of the gates.

Is there any even medium-term plan to upgrade the C1 club? I guess it will become slightly less crowded now but it is still so old.


C74 club closes 5/19 for renovations from what I read


Cool, thanks
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 5:59 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Agree. With this summer's seasonal expansions, UA will supposedly have the most nonstops between the US and Europe, and there have been comments and articles suggesting UA's network will be bigger than DL and AA's combined. Not sure if that means frequency, seats, both or destinations, or something else.

The UA footprint in Europe of today is far larger than the one that existed pre-merger with CO and is significantly larger I think than CO's pre-merger TATL network.


Which articles are these? I find it highly unlikely that UA's European network is larger than AA's and DL's combined by any serious metric. I've seen the capacity stats and UA is definitely the largest by capacity this summer, but nothing close to the magnitude of double or anywhere near it.

Jeremy


Patrick Qayle, their SVP for International, has been quoted in several business publications stating this. I don't think that necessarily means bigger than AA and DL combined though that has been mentioned (google it).

Last month, the airline said that it plans to boost transatlantic passenger-carrying capacity by 25 percent compared with pre-pandemic levels. Patrick Quayle, senior vice president of United's international network, explained that the move would be the biggest single transatlantic increase the carrier has ever made. "We will be the largest carrier across the transatlantic," Quayle told CBS News.


Look at the destination counts this summer and it's clear. United serves 28 destinations in Europe, combined AA/DL only serve 21.

Served by AA/DL but not UA: ARN, CPH, PRG
Served by UA and not AA/DL: BER, BGO, DBV, GVA, NAP, OPO, PDL, PMI, SNN, TFS (politically Europe although geographically not so much)
Served by both UA and at least one of AA/DL: AMS, ATH, BCN, BRU, CDG, DUB, EDI, FCO, FRA, KEF, LHR, LIS, MAD, MUC, MXP, NCE, VCE, ZRH

The gap gets a little wider if you also include MEIA.
 
avi8
Posts: 1573
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 6:09 pm

cosyr wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Saw the new United club at EWR today. Interesting in my opinion, nice and different but not super warm and comfortable. Hopefully this one can open soon along with the new club in terminal A before they begin to renovate the c74 club.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ub-newark/ I know what you mean about not as warm and comfortable, but it reminds me a lot of the United Club in HKG. Personally, I don't mind different United Clubs having different character from one another. I kind of like this space, I just don't like it's location. This biggest location is far from more than 2/3 of the gates in Terminal C.


Why would a long-haul business class traveler go to the UA club rather than the Polaris lounge? It seems like the differences between both lounges is murkier, at least for me.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 6:29 pm

avi8 wrote:
Why would a long-haul business class traveler go to the UA club rather than the Polaris lounge? It seems like the differences between both lounges is murkier, at least for me.

They probably wouldn't.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 6:40 pm

dcajet wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
There's not a lot of info and the A321XLR specs, but note that it will have a permanent rear center tank and an optional auxiliary center tank probably in the rear of the forward bin. Airbus says the range is up to 4,700NM, which is longer than the 777-200A. I wonder if UA is buying the ACT and what the range is without it?

Compared to a 3,915 NM range of the 752, the extra 800 NM could add a couple of hours of flying meaning no winter fuel stops and extending the longest route from previously flown EWR-TXL to something like EWR-NAP/DBV or ORD-VIE.

Of course, runway length may be an issue and heavy Winter winds could affect the longest routes, but the XLR will surely open up EWR/IAD to parts of Eastern and Southern Europe with low operating cost flights.

Additionally, the XLR can operate from UA hubs to the top half of South America and should be able to make ORD/IAH to Hawaii.


Could the XLR make destinations like MVD or Bolivia? Dont know if those are viable markets, just wonder about the distance.


Per Airbus:

Image

Bolivia should not be a problem from IAH, the return has to be from VVI not from LPB due to the airfield's height. MVD is questionable from IAH, doable from MIA or FLL.

Armchair network planner: 321XLRs go on LIM and some other 763 route at 2x daily or 12x weekly. This frees up those 763s to do daily EZE and MVD. The current 777 on EZE opens DEN-Timbuktu/three.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 7:14 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

Which articles are these? I find it highly unlikely that UA's European network is larger than AA's and DL's combined by any serious metric. I've seen the capacity stats and UA is definitely the largest by capacity this summer, but nothing close to the magnitude of double or anywhere near it.

Jeremy


Patrick Qayle, their SVP for International, has been quoted in several business publications stating this. I don't think that necessarily means bigger than AA and DL combined though that has been mentioned (google it).

Last month, the airline said that it plans to boost transatlantic passenger-carrying capacity by 25 percent compared with pre-pandemic levels. Patrick Quayle, senior vice president of United's international network, explained that the move would be the biggest single transatlantic increase the carrier has ever made. "We will be the largest carrier across the transatlantic," Quayle told CBS News.


Look at the destination counts this summer and it's clear. United serves 28 destinations in Europe, combined AA/DL only serve 21.

Served by AA/DL but not UA: ARN, CPH, PRG
Served by UA and not AA/DL: BER, BGO, DBV, GVA, NAP, OPO, PDL, PMI, SNN, TFS (politically Europe although geographically not so much)
Served by both UA and at least one of AA/DL: AMS, ATH, BCN, BRU, CDG, DUB, EDI, FCO, FRA, KEF, LHR, LIS, MAD, MUC, MXP, NCE, VCE, ZRH

The gap gets a little wider if you also include MEIA.


Thanks for pulling this detail, which I bet was time consuming. On your first line, AA doesn't fly to ARN, CPH, or PRG. They've not served ARN since the dropped ORD-ARN a long time ago, and PRG has not restarted since 2019.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 7:23 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Patrick Qayle, their SVP for International, has been quoted in several business publications stating this. I don't think that necessarily means bigger than AA and DL combined though that has been mentioned (google it).

Last month, the airline said that it plans to boost transatlantic passenger-carrying capacity by 25 percent compared with pre-pandemic levels. Patrick Quayle, senior vice president of United's international network, explained that the move would be the biggest single transatlantic increase the carrier has ever made. "We will be the largest carrier across the transatlantic," Quayle told CBS News.


Look at the destination counts this summer and it's clear. United serves 28 destinations in Europe, combined AA/DL only serve 21.

Served by AA/DL but not UA: ARN, CPH, PRG
Served by UA and not AA/DL: BER, BGO, DBV, GVA, NAP, OPO, PDL, PMI, SNN, TFS (politically Europe although geographically not so much)
Served by both UA and at least one of AA/DL: AMS, ATH, BCN, BRU, CDG, DUB, EDI, FCO, FRA, KEF, LHR, LIS, MAD, MUC, MXP, NCE, VCE, ZRH

The gap gets a little wider if you also include MEIA.


Thanks for pulling this detail, which I bet was time consuming. On your first line, AA doesn't fly to ARN, CPH, or PRG. They've not served ARN since the dropped ORD-ARN a long time ago, and PRG has not restarted since 2019.

It's by AA or DL, not by both of them. I just pulled the stats for AA/DL as if they were one airline.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5631
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri May 13, 2022 7:39 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Could the XLR make destinations like MVD or Bolivia? Dont know if those are viable markets, just wonder about the distance.


Per Airbus:

Image

Bolivia should not be a problem from IAH, the return has to be from VVI not from LPB due to the airfield's height. MVD is questionable from IAH, doable from MIA or FLL.

Armchair network planner: 321XLRs go on LIM and some other 763 route at 2x daily or 12x weekly. This frees up those 763s to do daily EZE and MVD. The current 777 on EZE opens DEN-Timbuktu/three.


Nice, but why would you downgauge EZE that's operating at 95% LF and on top of that add a MVD tag, already tried and discontinued by UA? I assume that is what you were thinking of because MVD can't even support these days a non stop to MIA during the low season (April . November).

AA, AF and UA tried the MVD tag from EZE. Expensive to operate and oftentimes the 777/767 would make the 25-minute crossing of the Río de la Plata estuary with only a handful of passengers.

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