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wenders825
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:11 pm

voxkel wrote:
IAH-MAD feels like a route UA should operate but doesn’t. There is a lot of connecting opportunity from Mexico and Central América for such a flight.

for real, AA pulls a lot of the DFW-MAD traffic from those connections - granted they partner with IB but I feel like UA could make that work. they have a very strong Mexico and central america network, and it's not as if those passengers are flying Copa to PTY to...fly another airline to Madrid. there's an opportunity there

IAH is a way bigger market to Paris. or Rome. or anywhere over DEN

lastly, while this is basically confirmed to be a TATL only announcement, I definitely want to see EWR-ICN/TPE. maybe in lieu of the china flights. it's criminal that there's only SFO flights to both, and one only at that!
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:18 pm

EWR-ARN and IAD-BER are loaded. If there was any doubt over them, its gone.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:29 pm

You think DEN will be getting at least something or will they be content with LHR (2x)/FRA/MUC/NRT? Also, you think UA will copycat DL and add LAX-PPT?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:37 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
You think DEN will be getting at least something or will they be content with LHR/FRA/MUC/NRT?


No one really knows how tomorrow will shake up, maybe they will.

My thought is that DEN is more ripe for routes that funnel connections. IAH is better for markets where its O&D is much larger. That means I would peg routes like ZRH more for DEN and CDG more for IAH. In that scenario DEN and ZRH are both JV hubs and are perfect for funneling connections on both ends. For CDG, IAH has significantly larger amounts of demand that would supersede connections.

Thats just my opinion. Of course I dont know that tomorrow will include either hub.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:37 pm

According to some sources of mine at UA they suspect the below, some of which have also been in the media:

Barcelona from Chicago starting 25 may 2023 (Dulles resumes 5 May 23)
Newark to Prague starting 25 May 2023
and returning Newark to Stockholm 25 May 2023 also
Newark to Paris CDG goes double daily 5 May (not sure if that is part of this announcement)
As others have noted Malaga is also likely coming ,likely from Newark.

I suspect SFO-FCO is possible.

Newark Berlin was announced already correct?

No idea if they are correct but they are having fun with it also!
 
B6SpiritofEWR
Posts: 93
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:52 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
According to some sources of mine at UA they suspect the below, some of which have also been in the media:

Barcelona from Chicago starting 25 may 2023 (Dulles resumes 5 May 23)
Newark to Prague starting 25 May 2023
and returning Newark to Stockholm 25 May 2023 also
Newark to Paris CDG goes double daily 5 May (not sure if that is part of this announcement)
As others have noted Malaga is also likely coming ,likely from Newark.

I suspect SFO-FCO is possible.

Newark Berlin was announced already correct?

No idea if they are correct but they are having fun with it also!


EWR-PRG/ARN/CDG #2 have already been loaded for a while…
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:02 pm

B6SpiritofEWR wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
According to some sources of mine at UA they suspect the below, some of which have also been in the media:

Barcelona from Chicago starting 25 may 2023 (Dulles resumes 5 May 23)
Newark to Prague starting 25 May 2023
and returning Newark to Stockholm 25 May 2023 also
Newark to Paris CDG goes double daily 5 May (not sure if that is part of this announcement)
As others have noted Malaga is also likely coming ,likely from Newark.

I suspect SFO-FCO is possible.

Newark Berlin was announced already correct?

No idea if they are correct but they are having fun with it also!


EWR-PRG/ARN/CDG #2 have already been loaded for a while…


That is probably why my squadron mates know about it then! Pilots, we are the last to know LOL
 
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psa1011
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:17 pm

jplatts wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I'm curious about the potential Japanese route. NGO would be the logical next market from SFO if they were to add a new flight, no? how much demand is there for that?


San Jose, CA-based Western Digital owns manufacturing facilities with Kioxia near Nagoya in Yokkaichi, Japan.

Toyota, which is headquartered in the city of Toyota in Greater Nagoya, has its North American headquarters in Plano, TX.

Buffalo Technology, which is headquartered in Nagoya, has its North American headquarters in Austin, TX.

Brother Industries, which is headquartered in Nagoya, has its North American headquarters on the New Jersey side of the NYC metro area in Bridgewater, NJ.

Nagoya-based Makita has its North American headquarters in La Mirada, California in Greater Los Angeles.

NH currently only has 1 daily nonstop to NGO from HND, and NH will be resuming NRT-NGO nonstop service on 10/30/2022 (with only 1 daily nonstop in each direction on NRT-NGO).

There might possibly be a market for UA SFO-NGO nonstop service with the connecting feed that UA would have onto SFO-NGO from places such as AUS/DFW/LAX/EWR.

There would also be some connecting opportunities onto NH NGO-OKA from UA SFO-NGO flights if UA adds SFO-NGO nonstop service, and there are some Americans who do connect to OKA with the U.S. military bases that are there on Okinawa Island.


I'm curious as to why UA discontinued SFO-NGO late 2000's.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:18 pm

psa1011 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I'm curious about the potential Japanese route. NGO would be the logical next market from SFO if they were to add a new flight, no? how much demand is there for that?


San Jose, CA-based Western Digital owns manufacturing facilities with Kioxia near Nagoya in Yokkaichi, Japan.

Toyota, which is headquartered in the city of Toyota in Greater Nagoya, has its North American headquarters in Plano, TX.

Buffalo Technology, which is headquartered in Nagoya, has its North American headquarters in Austin, TX.

Brother Industries, which is headquartered in Nagoya, has its North American headquarters on the New Jersey side of the NYC metro area in Bridgewater, NJ.

Nagoya-based Makita has its North American headquarters in La Mirada, California in Greater Los Angeles.

NH currently only has 1 daily nonstop to NGO from HND, and NH will be resuming NRT-NGO nonstop service on 10/30/2022 (with only 1 daily nonstop in each direction on NRT-NGO).

There might possibly be a market for UA SFO-NGO nonstop service with the connecting feed that UA would have onto SFO-NGO from places such as AUS/DFW/LAX/EWR.

There would also be some connecting opportunities onto NH NGO-OKA from UA SFO-NGO flights if UA adds SFO-NGO nonstop service, and there are some Americans who do connect to OKA with the U.S. military bases that are there on Okinawa Island.


I'm curious as to why UA discontinued SFO-NGO late 2000's.


NGO is very DTW centric. It depends on the Toyota contract. It makes it harder from other hubs.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:08 pm

EWR-AGP
EWR-DXB
EWR-ARN
SFO-FCO
ORD-SNN
IAD-BER
ORD-BCN
2nd daily LAX-LHR
2nd daily IAD-CDG

https://www.united.com/en/us/newsroom/a ... ion-125241
 
Golfmikey
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:29 pm

So BGO officially cut

And now checking the schedule I also don’t see ewr-prg…I thought that was official?
 
dcajet
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:41 pm

Golfmikey wrote:
So BGO officially cut

And now checking the schedule I also don’t see ewr-prg…I thought that was official?


Looks like PRG didn't make the cut; it has bee zeroed out.
 
avi8
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:01 pm

UA’s network to a Europe is just incredible. It’s amazing how they can have some network redundancy in IAD, EWR, and ORD when servicing Europe. Sadly, no love for IAH.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:20 pm

I didn’t know that LHR would be able to accommodate another UA flight. London will see so many United tails throughout the day.
I was wondering if a second morning flight from EWR would work? I often have taken the morning flight because I am far better the next morning after having a full night of sleep. It “seems” to get booked full in front rather quickly!
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:07 pm

Where is the additional slot for LAX-LHR coming from?
 
portola2727
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Where is the additional slot for LAX-LHR coming from?

From what I've heard, it's a new slot since it's only a seasonal flight and not a year round one. If UA decides to make it year round, the extra slot should come from somewhere else.
 
codc10
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:28 pm

portola2727 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Where is the additional slot for LAX-LHR coming from?

From what I've heard, it's a new slot since it's only a seasonal flight and not a year round one. If UA decides to make it year round, the extra slot should come from somewhere else.


We’ll learn in a few months when the S23 slot trades are posted.
 
sz1998
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:05 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Why do you think DEN is more likely?


UA hasn't added a brand new route out of IAH for a while.


IAH is a weird one for UA: they never give us much but they never take anything either. IAHs route network has been exceptionally stable internationally.



IAH isn't a leisure market -- these adds are all leisure focused.
 
wenders825
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:21 pm

IAD-CDG/BER aren't necessarily leisure though. it does seem sort of telling they would do a second IAD-CDG over a IAH-CDG entry

I do agree IAH is interesting with nothing new ever getting added, but the flights they have do well. I'd think there's opportunity for CDG, MAD, and BRU someday
 
sfojvjets
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:59 pm

sz1998 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:

UA hasn't added a brand new route out of IAH for a while.


IAH is a weird one for UA: they never give us much but they never take anything either. IAHs route network has been exceptionally stable internationally.



IAH isn't a leisure market -- these adds are all leisure focused.

You are forgetting about point of sale... Sure, IAH isn't a leisure market, but how does that matter when it is a large source of O&D traffic (and has significant connecting traffic too)?

Due to many European markets being leisure markets, the point of sale on a route from IAH to Europe is by default going to be weighted very heavily towards the Houston point of sale (basically, on a route that connects Houston with Europe, most passengers on the flight will be Americans or will be originating in the US). United's goal with most of these launches is not to bring Europeans to their US hubs–it is the other way around. Leisure markets need feed, and United's hubs provide that.

Let's take a look at this with another route: American Airlines' route from PHL to Athens. Is PHL a leisure market? Not at all. So by your argument, PHL shouldn't be able to get routes like PHL-ATH/FCO/VCE/BCN/etc. Obviously this isn't the case because those all exist.

Even for a route like the newly announced SFO-FCO on UA, the point of sale will be heavily weighted towards San Francisco/the west coast in general. San Francisco may be a leisure market that has a lot of tourism draw, but again, SFO serves a metro area of 7 million+ people that has significant disposable income and leisure demand for flights to Europe. (And this excludes all the connecting traffic that will be flying via SFO to get to Rome.)

A route always has two destinations–one on either end. Sometimes one destination supplies the feed for the other destination almost exclusively. Other times, the point of sale is more evenly split between both destinations. Only one of the destinations needs to be a "leisure market" for the route to be a "leisure route".
 
sz1998
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 11, 2022 8:06 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:05 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
sz1998 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

IAH is a weird one for UA: they never give us much but they never take anything either. IAHs route network has been exceptionally stable internationally.



IAH isn't a leisure market -- these adds are all leisure focused.

You are forgetting about point of sale... Sure, IAH isn't a leisure market, but how does that matter when it is a large source of O&D traffic (and has significant connecting traffic too)?

Due to many European markets being leisure markets, the point of sale on a route from IAH to Europe is by default going to be weighted very heavily towards the Houston point of sale (basically, on a route that connects Houston with Europe, most passengers on the flight will be Americans or will be originating in the US). United's goal with most of these launches is not to bring Europeans to their US hubs–it is the other way around. Leisure markets need feed, and United's hubs provide that.

Let's take a look at this with another route: American Airlines' route from PHL to Athens. Is PHL a leisure market? Not at all. So by your argument, PHL shouldn't be able to get routes like PHL-ATH/FCO/VCE/BCN/etc. Obviously this isn't the case because those all exist.

Even for a route like the newly announced SFO-FCO on UA, the point of sale will be heavily weighted towards San Francisco/the west coast in general. San Francisco may be a leisure market that has a lot of tourism draw, but again, SFO serves a metro area of 7 million+ people that has significant disposable income and leisure demand for flights to Europe. (And this excludes all the connecting traffic that will be flying via SFO to get to Rome.)

A route always has two destinations–one on either end. Sometimes one destination supplies the feed for the other destination almost exclusively. Other times, the point of sale is more evenly split between both destinations. Only one of the destinations needs to be a "leisure market" for the route to be a "leisure route".


I totally get what you mean, I think that since UA faces very little competition in Houston, it makes sense to route some traffic through its main TATL hubs like ORD, IAD, EWR, where UA faces ferocious competition.

I would like to really see UA build up the SA/LA ops out of IAH.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:23 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
sz1998 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

IAH is a weird one for UA: they never give us much but they never take anything either. IAHs route network has been exceptionally stable internationally.



IAH isn't a leisure market -- these adds are all leisure focused.

You are forgetting about point of sale... Sure, IAH isn't a leisure market, but how does that matter when it is a large source of O&D traffic (and has significant connecting traffic too)?

Due to many European markets being leisure markets, the point of sale on a route from IAH to Europe is by default going to be weighted very heavily towards the Houston point of sale (basically, on a route that connects Houston with Europe, most passengers on the flight will be Americans or will be originating in the US). United's goal with most of these launches is not to bring Europeans to their US hubs–it is the other way around. Leisure markets need feed, and United's hubs provide that.


That actually isnt true. For examples, IAH-CDG and IAH-AMS are weighted towards Europe point of sale. It is European companies that drive those flights (Schlumberger and Shell). Other markets like IAH-Spain/Italy are weighted heavily towards the US point of sale. IAH isnt like DFW or ATL where the US point of sale is much heavier. Its because of the energy industry.

The nature of Houston being the worldwide capital of energy and it being such an international industry means there is a lot of traffic originating from other places that come here more than from here to other places, but its very specific. If were talking about European companies with huge bases, its going to mean more coming from there to here (CDG is a good examples of that). If were talking places that dont have energy ties to Houston, the point of sale will be heavier here. If anything, that is a good example of why UA maybe feels IAH-CDG isnt worth it.
 
sfojvjets
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:54 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
sz1998 wrote:


IAH isn't a leisure market -- these adds are all leisure focused.

You are forgetting about point of sale... Sure, IAH isn't a leisure market, but how does that matter when it is a large source of O&D traffic (and has significant connecting traffic too)?

Due to many European markets being leisure markets, the point of sale on a route from IAH to Europe is by default going to be weighted very heavily towards the Houston point of sale (basically, on a route that connects Houston with Europe, most passengers on the flight will be Americans or will be originating in the US). United's goal with most of these launches is not to bring Europeans to their US hubs–it is the other way around. Leisure markets need feed, and United's hubs provide that.


That actually isnt true. For examples, IAH-CDG and IAH-AMS are weighted towards Europe point of sale. It is European companies that drive those flights (Schlumberger and Shell). Other markets like IAH-Spain/Italy are weighted heavily towards the US point of sale. IAH isnt like DFW or ATL where the US point of sale is much heavier. Its because of the energy industry.

The nature of Houston being the worldwide capital of energy and it being such an international industry means there is a lot of traffic originating from other places that come here more than from here to other places, but its very specific. If were talking about European companies with huge bases, its going to mean more coming from there to here (CDG is a good examples of that). If were talking places that dont have energy ties to Houston, the point of sale will be heavier here. If anything, that is a good example of why UA maybe feels IAH-CDG isnt worth it.

Thanks for clarifying. I was aware of the energy industry shifting POS towards Europe when it came to a route like IAH-CDG, however I didn't realize that this also applied to AMS.

With regards to IAH-AMS, does UA have the contract for that flight? I always wondered how they were able to fly it year round.

Still, when it comes to those cities that do not have energy ties to Houston, my point still stands that any UA route launched would generally be chasing the US point of sale as opposed to the European POS.

I wonder when UA thinks the time will be right to launch IAH-CDG. That has to be the biggest gap in their European network that I can think of, currently.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:59 pm

Everyone was so sure of BUD, what happened? There we even clips or something from the BUD airport. Sad to see PRG gone, enjoyed the service once.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:11 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
You are forgetting about point of sale... Sure, IAH isn't a leisure market, but how does that matter when it is a large source of O&D traffic (and has significant connecting traffic too)?

Due to many European markets being leisure markets, the point of sale on a route from IAH to Europe is by default going to be weighted very heavily towards the Houston point of sale (basically, on a route that connects Houston with Europe, most passengers on the flight will be Americans or will be originating in the US). United's goal with most of these launches is not to bring Europeans to their US hubs–it is the other way around. Leisure markets need feed, and United's hubs provide that.


That actually isnt true. For examples, IAH-CDG and IAH-AMS are weighted towards Europe point of sale. It is European companies that drive those flights (Schlumberger and Shell). Other markets like IAH-Spain/Italy are weighted heavily towards the US point of sale. IAH isnt like DFW or ATL where the US point of sale is much heavier. Its because of the energy industry.

The nature of Houston being the worldwide capital of energy and it being such an international industry means there is a lot of traffic originating from other places that come here more than from here to other places, but its very specific. If were talking about European companies with huge bases, its going to mean more coming from there to here (CDG is a good examples of that). If were talking places that dont have energy ties to Houston, the point of sale will be heavier here. If anything, that is a good example of why UA maybe feels IAH-CDG isnt worth it.

Thanks for clarifying. I was aware of the energy industry shifting POS towards Europe when it came to a route like IAH-CDG, however I didn't realize that this also applied to AMS.

With regards to IAH-AMS, does UA have the contract for that flight? I always wondered how they were able to fly it year round.

Still, when it comes to those cities that do not have energy ties to Houston, my point still stands that any UA route launched would generally be chasing the US point of sale as opposed to the European POS.

I wonder when UA thinks the time will be right to launch IAH-CDG. That has to be the biggest gap in their European network that I can think of, currently.


IAH-AMS is a lot more balanced. IAH-CDG is much more heavy towards Paris point of sale especially for premium seats.

In the case of IAH-AMS, KLM has the Shell contract but there are lot of service providers based in Houston that do corporate work as well off shore work. Back in the days of CO, I had always heard IAH-CDG did well enough but IAH-AMS was a barn burner. That was many moons ago and Id like to think the conditions for UA would be better for IAH-CDG, but with the POS being so heavy CDG, AF with their 77W is probably best for it. IAH-UK is also pretty mixed between UK POS and Houston.

And yes youre absolutely right. For places that dont have energy ties, its all going to be heavy Houston POS. Basically anywhere that isnt UK, Amsterdam, Paris, Norway, Turkey, Middle East, Indonesia, Trinidad and Tobago, Malaysia, Perth, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, etc. will be heavy Houston POS.
 
sbaflyer
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:05 am

Looks like SFO-DEL, SFO-BLR and EWR-BOM have been removed through 9/9/23. Even that seems tenuous.
 
wenders825
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:15 am

sbaflyer wrote:
Looks like SFO-DEL, SFO-BLR and EWR-BOM have been removed through 9/9/23. Even that seems tenuous.

I doubt the Russia conflict gets resolved by that juncture

the IAH talk is interesting. I do think something like SFO-FCO makes a lot of sense as it has a good mix of traffic - lots of Italians probably coming to CA versus just Californians going to Italy. Houston is trickier for something like Rome since it would have to rely on Houston+connections (which again, I feel a decent amount could be pulled from Mexico/Central America) mostly instead of Italians, as I'm sure the demand is a lot less. CDG is more likely since it has that business/leisure mix.

AMS seems to do very well for UA at IAH, I think there's plenty of room for both UA and KL, ditto LHR with BA. I'm still surprised they don't do BRU - lots of the African destinations that have ties to Houston would be served really well from there with SN
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:10 am

All this IAH talk reminds me of a lot of the discussion around DTW in DL threads, especially about 6-7 years ago. Both are huge and important hubs for their respective airlines, but neither of them really get the sexy destinations that the other hubs do.

I think it's great to see the TATL network that UA provides nonstop from places like IAH and DEN, but I can also completely understand why those two hubs didn't see any additions for next year.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:33 am

From a personal standpoint regarding Houston and feeder traffic for international flights, the small size of the 50 seaters autmatically limits the number of group tkt sale size for many of the IAH spokes. More than once, I’ve had to choose another carrier for a group because the group sales department was severely hampered by the seats they could offer. UA lost out..
 
dcajet
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:33 am

fun2fly wrote:
Everyone was so sure of BUD, what happened? There we even clips or something from the BUD airport. Sad to see PRG gone, enjoyed the service once.


I don't know if this is 100% the cause of it, but with the situation in Ukraine still very far from being resolved, we won't see much American leisure travel to Eastern/Central Europe for a while.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:21 pm

intotheair wrote:
All this IAH talk reminds me of a lot of the discussion around DTW in DL threads, especially about 6-7 years ago. Both are huge and important hubs for their respective airlines, but neither of them really get the sexy destinations that the other hubs do.

I think it's great to see the TATL network that UA provides nonstop from places like IAH and DEN, but I can also completely understand why those two hubs didn't see any additions for next year.


The primary difference between DEN and IAH is that DEN has massive domestic demand but a smaller international demand while IAH punches below its weight on domestic demand but has very large international demand. DEN receives a lot of leisure traffic which IAH does not, but IAH is a rich source of ethnic travel and DEN is not. Demand for DEN also swells at specific times of the year and falls off other times. IAH does not have a seasonality because, as has been correctly pointed out, its not a leisure destination.

That means that, from a route planning perspective, any international flight to/from DEN would need to rely on JV partner hubs. That way they can funnel passengers to Denver, then to another JV hub like FRA, MUC, or NRT, and then onwards. Its also why I honestly don't see how flights to AMS or CDG make any sense to/from DEN on UA. LHR is such a big market that it doesnt need to be a JV or Star hub. Domestically, its another story. UA can connect virtually any city in the US to DEN and it will be an almost instant success. Its why DEN almost never gets its domestic spokes cut even when ORD and IAH do. I think the next flight we see to Europe from DEN will be to ZRH and it will probably be from LX as opposed to UA.

As for IAH, its traffic flows are a lot less traditional than DEN. International traffic to/from IAH is three pronged: ethnic/energy industry/geography. Houston is an exceptionally diverse place and that drives ethnic travel especially to Mexico, Central America, South America, Southeast Asia, China (Pre-Pandemic), and Nigeria. UA's IAH-SAL/GUA/TGU/SAP flights have their own check in areas because those flights generate such long lines and people multiple bags. However ethnic travel is not usually prioritized by airlines except for low cost carriers. But that is where geography comes in. IAH is the best hub to serve Latin America from a geographic position and even EWR plays second fiddle to IAH in this region.

As far as the energy industry is concerned, there is really only three routes that UA serves from IAH that reflect: POS, AMS, and GIG. As we've seen UA isn't interested in expanding IAH-Europe and AMS is not certainly not a JV or Star hub. IAH-AMS has a very large O&D which is split between IAH and AMS point of sale and the fares are high thanks to the energy industry. Hell when UA had to cancel a flight to AMS because of issues there they chose IAD. As we can see from the most recent announcement they certainly prioritize IAD over IAH for European flights. It also has the most premium capacity of all of UA's AMS flights. That says a lot. As for GIG, its all about Petrobras. Energy is probably also why, even though DEN is better geographically positioned to serve Asia, IAH-NRT came back much sooner than DEN-NRT and why NH serves IAH instead of DEN.

The comparison of IAH to DTW is overall a pretty good one, though I would add one caveat: IAH has about 2.5X as much international demand as DTW. That said, what DTW was for DL to Asia (pre pandemic) is not that far away from what IAH is to Latin America for UA and both have similar amounts of domestic capacity though IAH has a lot more domestic destinations than DTW. Im sure a big part of that is that Houston is simply much larger an area than Detroit. All in all though, its not a bad comparison.
 
SJPBR
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:59 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
All this IAH talk reminds me of a lot of the discussion around DTW in DL threads, especially about 6-7 years ago. Both are huge and important hubs for their respective airlines, but neither of them really get the sexy destinations that the other hubs do.

I think it's great to see the TATL network that UA provides nonstop from places like IAH and DEN, but I can also completely understand why those two hubs didn't see any additions for next year.


The primary difference between DEN and IAH is that DEN has massive domestic demand but a smaller international demand while IAH punches below its weight on domestic demand but has very large international demand. DEN receives a lot of leisure traffic which IAH does not, but IAH is a rich source of ethnic travel and DEN is not. Demand for DEN also swells at specific times of the year and falls off other times. IAH does not have a seasonality because, as has been correctly pointed out, its not a leisure destination.

That means that, from a route planning perspective, any international flight to/from DEN would need to rely on JV partner hubs. That way they can funnel passengers to Denver, then to another JV hub like FRA, MUC, or NRT, and then onwards. Its also why I honestly don't see how flights to AMS or CDG make any sense to/from DEN on UA. LHR is such a big market that it doesnt need to be a JV or Star hub. Domestically, its another story. UA can connect virtually any city in the US to DEN and it will be an almost instant success. Its why DEN almost never gets its domestic spokes cut even when ORD and IAH do. I think the next flight we see to Europe from DEN will be to ZRH and it will probably be from LX as opposed to UA.

As for IAH, its traffic flows are a lot less traditional than DEN. International traffic to/from IAH is three pronged: ethnic/energy industry/geography. Houston is an exceptionally diverse place and that drives ethnic travel especially to Mexico, Central America, South America, Southeast Asia, China (Pre-Pandemic), and Nigeria. UA's IAH-SAL/GUA/TGU/SAP flights have their own check in areas because those flights generate such long lines and people multiple bags. However ethnic travel is not usually prioritized by airlines except for low cost carriers. But that is where geography comes in. IAH is the best hub to serve Latin America from a geographic position and even EWR plays second fiddle to IAH in this region.

As far as the energy industry is concerned, there is really only three routes that UA serves from IAH that reflect: POS, AMS, and GIG. As we've seen UA isn't interested in expanding IAH-Europe and AMS is not certainly not a JV or Star hub. IAH-AMS has a very large O&D which is split between IAH and AMS point of sale and the fares are high thanks to the energy industry. Hell when UA had to cancel a flight to AMS because of issues there they chose IAD. As we can see from the most recent announcement they certainly prioritize IAD over IAH for European flights. It also has the most premium capacity of all of UA's AMS flights. That says a lot. As for GIG, its all about Petrobras. Energy is probably also why, even though DEN is better geographically positioned to serve Asia, IAH-NRT came back much sooner than DEN-NRT and why NH serves IAH instead of DEN.

The comparison of IAH to DTW is overall a pretty good one, though I would add one caveat: IAH has about 2.5X as much international demand as DTW. That said, what DTW was for DL to Asia (pre pandemic) is not that far away from what IAH is to Latin America for UA and both have similar amounts of domestic capacity though IAH has a lot more domestic destinations than DTW. Im sure a big part of that is that Houston is simply much larger an area than Detroit. All in all though, its not a bad comparison.


IAH has its peculiarities. Due the oil industry it has many ties with awkward places. Just as an example: For many years (up to COVID), IAH served the 2 main Brazilian centers (GRU and GIG) as done by many other places in the world (MIA, LHR, AMS, CDG, JFK , etc…). IAH-GIG was the only one with a bigger aircraft and a larger J cabin than the flight to GRU when compared with the others. Only due oil industry!

edit for clarification
 
LondonXtreme
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:51 pm

https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-australia/

United will launch a second fight between San Francisco and Sydney on December 14

San Francisco (SFO) to Sydney (SYD)
United 829
Dep: 8:15 pm
Arr: 6:35 am+2 days
15h 20m

Sydney (SYD) to San Francisco (SFO)
United 830
Dep: 12:10 pm
Arr: 7:00 am
13h 50m
 
nascar1
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:55 pm

 
portola2727
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:12 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:09 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-australia/

United will launch a second fight between San Francisco and Sydney on December 14

San Francisco (SFO) to Sydney (SYD)
United 829
Dep: 8:15 pm
Arr: 6:35 am+2 days
15h 20m

Sydney (SYD) to San Francisco (SFO)
United 830
Dep: 12:10 pm
Arr: 7:00 am
13h 50m

Note that it's 3 weekly.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 9472
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:33 pm

portola2727 wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-australia/

United will launch a second fight between San Francisco and Sydney on December 14

San Francisco (SFO) to Sydney (SYD)
United 829
Dep: 8:15 pm
Arr: 6:35 am+2 days
15h 20m

Sydney (SYD) to San Francisco (SFO)
United 830
Dep: 12:10 pm
Arr: 7:00 am
13h 50m

Note that it's 3 weekly.


And seasonal
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:06 am

nascar1 wrote:

Wow good numbers at least at face value. One presumes yields must decent also.
 
dcajet
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:18 pm

With this weekend's schedule update, United revised its return to HKG and KIX

* SFO-HKG is pushed back from 4JAN23 to 10FEB 23, further modifications are possible, schedule is 2x d with 772ER
* SFO-KIX is pushed back from 4JAN to 5JAN23, schedule is now 3x with 772ER instead of daily with 789

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uafeb23hkg
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uajan23kix
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:09 pm

dcajet wrote:
With this weekend's schedule update, United revised its return to HKG and KIX

* SFO-HKG is pushed back from 4JAN23 to 10FEB 23, further modifications are possible, schedule is 2x d with 772ER
* SFO-KIX is pushed back from 4JAN to 5JAN23, schedule is now 3x with 772ER instead of daily with 789

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uafeb23hkg
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uajan23kix

Interesting. I don't remember them ever sending a 777 to KIX. It has always been a 787 from what I remember.

For that matter does UA even fly 772s to Asia? Or has it always been a mix of 77W and 787?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 26913
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:20 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
Interesting. I don't remember them ever sending a 777 to KIX. It has always been a 787 from what I remember.

For that matter does UA even fly 772s to Asia? Or has it always been a mix of 77W and 787?


KIX was operated on a 772 for ages (more than a decade).

The large 772 fleet was the mainstay for UA Pacific network for a long while as 747s were being pulled down and before the 787/77W arrived in meaningful numbers.
 
shaq
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:22 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:34 pm

Double daily to HKG? I will believe it when I see it.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 26913
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:39 pm

shaq wrote:
Double daily to HKG? I will believe it when I see it.


:checkmark:

They have been publishing that phantom double daily schedule for months now.

The big issue that needs resolving is how to deal with the required testing, rules that essentially require hotel isolation during a layover, and ramifications if a crew member tests positive upon arrival or during layover.
 
dcajet
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:11 pm

LAXintl wrote:
shaq wrote:
Double daily to HKG? I will believe it when I see it.


:checkmark:

They have been publishing that phantom double daily schedule for months now.

The big issue that needs resolving is how to deal with the required testing, rules that essentially require hotel isolation during a layover, and ramifications if a crew member tests positive upon arrival or during layover.


Highly doubt this will be resolved in time for the flights to begin once again by Feb. No way the unions will go sheepishly with China's rules requiring room confinement during the layover and procedures/confinement with a crew member tests positive.

Poor HKG, it will be quite the uphill battle to regain its global aviation hub status it held until COVID came along.
 
UA444
Posts: 3296
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:19 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
dcajet wrote:
With this weekend's schedule update, United revised its return to HKG and KIX

* SFO-HKG is pushed back from 4JAN23 to 10FEB 23, further modifications are possible, schedule is 2x d with 772ER
* SFO-KIX is pushed back from 4JAN to 5JAN23, schedule is now 3x with 772ER instead of daily with 789

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uafeb23hkg
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221015-uajan23kix

Interesting. I don't remember them ever sending a 777 to KIX. It has always been a 787 from what I remember.

For that matter does UA even fly 772s to Asia? Or has it always been a mix of 77W and 787?

The 777-222ERs were bought in large part for Asia.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:51 pm

dcajet wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
shaq wrote:
Double daily to HKG? I will believe it when I see it.


:checkmark:

They have been publishing that phantom double daily schedule for months now.

The big issue that needs resolving is how to deal with the required testing, rules that essentially require hotel isolation during a layover, and ramifications if a crew member tests positive upon arrival or during layover.


Highly doubt this will be resolved in time for the flights to begin once again by Feb. No way the unions will go sheepishly with China's rules requiring room confinement during the layover and procedures/confinement with a crew member tests positive.

Poor HKG, it will be quite the uphill battle to regain its global aviation hub status it held until COVID came along.

They will. They've done it for TYO until a few days ago.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:52 pm

Has it already been discussed about UA pulling out of the LAX-ITO market?
 
AC4500
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:58 pm

stlAV8R wrote:
Has it already been discussed about UA pulling out of the LAX-ITO market?

Not that I can recall. This is the first I'm hearing of it. Looking at the schedule, LAX-ITO is gone after January 7.

Wasn't this a cargo-heavy route?
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:05 pm

AC4500 wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
Has it already been discussed about UA pulling out of the LAX-ITO market?

Not that I can recall. This is the first I'm hearing of it. Looking at the schedule, LAX-ITO is gone after January 7.

Wasn't this a cargo-heavy route?

Not sure about the cargo but from what I understand, this route was an underperformer, especially with high fuel costs (beginning example of route cuts due to current fuel prices). I believe the plan is to route traffic to KOA instead.
 
User avatar
psa1011
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:37 pm

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 pm

LAXintl wrote:
shaq wrote:
Double daily to HKG? I will believe it when I see it.


:checkmark:

They have been publishing that phantom double daily schedule for months now.

The big issue that needs resolving is how to deal with the required testing, rules that essentially require hotel isolation during a layover, and ramifications if a crew member tests positive upon arrival or during layover.



Randomly, looking at the Hemispheres magazine for October, the route map still shows PEK/CTU, but not BNE. For BNE I'm imagining something regulatory. For the mainland China airports, after how many years of absence, with no end in sight, do you think UA can still list those routes?
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: United Airlines Network Thread - 2022

Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:16 pm

stlAV8R wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
Has it already been discussed about UA pulling out of the LAX-ITO market?

Not that I can recall. This is the first I'm hearing of it. Looking at the schedule, LAX-ITO is gone after January 7.

Wasn't this a cargo-heavy route?

Not sure about the cargo but from what I understand, this route was an underperformer, especially with high fuel costs (beginning example of route cuts due to current fuel prices). I believe the plan is to route traffic to KOA instead.


Yikes, that's not good news for Hilo. Any chance WN or HA would be interested in giving mainland-ITO service a try?

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