It's great to see AZO get a shot at proper ULCC service. Their previous one was short-lived service on Direct Air which was already well into the fraud portion of their business plan by the time they started AZO.

LAN did have G4 for a brief period but it was well before G4 really had their strategies as well developed and they left for MBS when they offered a better deal than LAN. When SY served LAN it was sort of a weird hybrid LCC and not a ULCC.

NoahV37 wrote:

Kalamazoo just posted that they have an announcement tomorrow. I have a feeling this is also Avelo.

Courtesy: WWMT-TV

Ultra low-cost airline announces new non-stop service from Kalamazoo to Orlando

https://wwmt.com/news/local/avelo-air-ultra-low-cost-airline-announces-new-non-stop-service-kalamazoo-orlando-battle-creek-jim-olson-houston-florida-lansing-los-angeles-new-haven

XP AZO-MCO? Dang, I was hoping for something that actually offered beyond-connectivity, like a hypothetical DL AZO-ATL or AA AZO-CLT.

That said, I assume that this flight will do good.

And better MCO than nothing. Maybe I could use XP/EK on separate tickets AZO-MCO-DXB-KHI when I next visit family.

flymco753 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

No.....'cuz they can sell DTW-MCO nonstops for $500+ r/t all winter long, and $800+ on peak mid-winter and spring break Saturdays. (F seats regularly go for $1000-1200 during this period).
DL spills ULCC traffic all over the place by design.

WN does that with DTW-MCO and flies it Saturday only. Difference is WN uses their largest aircraft while DL tries to shove thousands of passengers daily onto sardine can 737-900s so they can use the 757-300s in Atlanta.

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, comparing 175-seat WN 738s to 180-seat DL 739s, or Sat-only WN vs. DL 3x 321 and 3x 739 (on this Monday). Who's just skimming a little traffic, and who is serving the market?

No, one isn't going to find a high fraction of $69 seats on DL Michigan-Florida. Frequency and destination count are competitive vectors, along with 3-cabin aircraft and AVOD.

drdisque wrote:

It's great to see AZO get a shot at proper ULCC service. Their previous one was sho rt-lived service on Direct Air which was already well into the fraud portion of their business plan by the time they started AZO.

LAN did have G4 for a brief period but it was well before G4 really had their strategies as well developed and they left for MBS when they offered a better deal than LAN. When SY served LAN it was sort of a weird hybrid LCC and not a ULCC.

I do not believe the AZO service will stick for long unless they can pull passengers from the northern Indiana across the state line using the service ... LAN will likely survive as they can pull from mid and upper mid Michigan areas with ease via the 4 lane highway US 27.

crjflyboy wrote:

drdisque wrote:

It's great to see AZO get a shot at proper ULCC service. Their previous one was sho rt-lived service on Direct Air which was already well into the fraud portion of their business plan by the time they started AZO.

LAN did have G4 for a brief period but it was well before G4 really had their strategies as well developed and they left for MBS when they offered a better deal than LAN. When SY served LAN it was sort of a weird hybrid LCC and not a ULCC.

I do not believe the AZO service will stick for long unless they can pull passengers from the northern Indiana across the state line using the service ... LAN will likely survive as they can pull from mid and upper mid Michigan areas with ease via the 4 lane highway US 27.

part of the reason you don’t see a lot of leisure travel out of AZO is because it is expensive. with $59 flights starting out, people aren’t going to want to drive to GR if they can do it from someplace closer.

and may I remind people that GRR is still a complete cluster with their TSA checkpoint and their ongoing construction…last time I flew out of there the line was so backed up that I nearly missed my flight, and that was after arriving two hours early. You don’t have that issue in AZO, 10-15 minutes and you’re in.

AZORMP wrote:

crjflyboy wrote:

drdisque wrote:

It's great to see AZO get a shot at proper ULCC service. Their previous one was sho rt-lived service on Direct Air which was already well into the fraud portion of their business plan by the time they started AZO.

LAN did have G4 for a brief period but it was well before G4 really had their strategies as well developed and they left for MBS when they offered a better deal than LAN. When SY served LAN it was sort of a weird hybrid LCC and not a ULCC.

I do not believe the AZO service will stick for long unless they can pull passengers from the northern Indiana across the state line using the service ... LAN will likely survive as they can pull from mid and upper mid Michigan areas with ease via the 4 lane highway US 27.

part of the reason you don’t see a lot of leisure travel out of AZO is because it is expensive. with $59 flights starting out, people aren’t going to want to drive to GR if they can do it from someplace closer.

and may I remind people that GRR is still a complete cluster with their TSA checkpoint and their ongoing construction…last time I flew out of there the line was so backed up that I nearly missed my flight, and that was after arriving two hours early. You don’t have that issue in AZO, 10-15 minutes and you’re in.

You don't see leisure travel out of AZO due to the fact they have only 4 flights a day .. 2 to DTW and 2 to OHR ... based on population, demographics ... LAN is likely to have a much better shot ... I wish AZO the best of luck, they need it with their brand new terminal ... the idea of if you build it they will come, does not always come true ..

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

XP AZO-MCO? Dang, I was hoping for something that actually offered beyond-connectivity, like a hypothetical DL AZO-ATL or AA AZO-CLT.

That said, I assume that this flight will do good.

And better MCO than nothing. Maybe I could use XP/EK on separate tickets AZO-MCO-DXB-KHI when I next visit family.

Haha wow, you must enjoy pain! Although if you do take that route, please post a TR!

As an AZO native it's nice to see at least something, anything in terms of additional service. Really sad how far AZO service has fallen. Doesn't look like UA will return anytime soon, nor is the regional crunch getting better again ever, nor is there any replacement for 50 seaters coming. AZO is gonna turn into a mini-Mirabel it seems.

crjflyboy wrote:

AZORMP wrote:

crjflyboy wrote:

I do not believe the AZO service will stick for long unless they can pull passengers from the northern Indiana across the state line using the service ... LAN will likely survive as they can pull from mid and upper mid Michigan areas with ease via the 4 lane highway US 27.

part of the reason you don’t see a lot of leisure travel out of AZO is because it is expensive. with $59 flights starting out, people aren’t going to want to drive to GR if they can do it from someplace closer.

and may I remind people that GRR is still a complete cluster with their TSA checkpoint and their ongoing construction…last time I flew out of there the line was so backed up that I nearly missed my flight, and that was after arriving two hours early. You don’t have that issue in AZO, 10-15 minutes and you’re in.

You don't see leisure travel out of AZO due to the fact they have only 4 flights a day .. 2 to DTW and 2 to OHR ... based on population, demographics ... LAN is likely to have a much better shot ... I wish AZO the best of luck, they need it with their brand new terminal ... the idea of if you build it they will come, does not always come true ..

even when they had six to eight a day just on DL you didn’t have a whole lot of leisure travel. Spring Break sure, but outside of that you saw a lot of corporate clients for Stryker, Kellogg, Denso, Pfizer, etc.

Those planes were full. 700s or 900s for peak time, 200s off peak and for MSP. They only got hit after covid, and it hasn’t recovered because business flying at AZO by and large hasn’t resumed. a lot of those places are doing Zoom/Skype/Teams etc now vs flying. Cheaper too.

AZO got caught in the frequency and price death spiral too where it’s just becomes a lot easier to go to GRR for better schedule/frequency/pricing and you are where it is today.

It is being talked about in the EAS thread and there was an article written about it, Delta will making extra tag flights for its small cities in the north part of the state.

Now you can fly between APN-CIU, PLN-ESC, and IMT-RHI (RHI isn’t Michigan)

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

AZO got caught in the frequency and price death spiral too where it’s just becomes a lot easier to go to GRR for better schedule/frequency/pricing and you are where it is today.

So true. With the reduced frequencies on AA, flying OKC-ORD-AZO for us now usually means a 4+ hour layover each way. Then again flying OKC-AZO with one stop is not even possible on DL anymore. Would rather have an hour layover and fly to GRR instead. I do love my hometown airport though and how easy it is. We gladly pay more for the convenience. Guess we better enjoy it while it lasts.

Duplicate post

Delta is pulling the early morning departure/evening arrival from MQT-DTW...Marquette will be down to one AA Eagle E-145 to ORD and one DL CJ200 to DTW effective Oct 6th. In Jan DL ended the service from MQT to MSP. So DL has cut 67% of their service from the airport inside of a year.

Here is the DL service planned for October by station (excluding DTW)

GRR:
DTW 4 (3x 717, 1x 319)
ATL 4 (2x 320, 2x 321)
MSP 4 (2x E75, 2x 321)
LGA 2 (2x CR9)

AZO:
DTW 2 (2x CRJ)

LAN:
DTW 2 (2x CRJ)

MBS:
DTW 2 (2x CRJ)

TVC:
DTW 3 (1x 319, 2x CR9)

APN:
DTW 1 (CRJ)
CIU-MSP 1 (CRJ)

PLN
DTW 1 (CRJ)
ESC-MSP 1 (CRJ)

CIU
MSP 1 (CRJ)
APN-DTW 1 (CRJ)

ESC
MSP 1 (CRJ)
PLN-DTW 1 (CRJ)

IMT
RHI-MSP 1 (CRJ)
DTW 1 (CRJ)

MQT
DTW 1 (CRJ)

Marquette just lost a flight to Detroit, and now has the lowest number of flights in recent memory. Escanaba is losing half it's flights (from 2 downto 1). Even before the cuts flights were mostly full, an always expensive. Now, crazy.

Of course I know there is a pilot shortage, but Delta should be able to make money on high cost seats carried by full airplanes!

Delta no longer loves the U.P.

This is not unique to the UP. This is playing out in every small market nationwide.

Per the Fly Lansing Instagram account another new "sunny location" Assume it will be announcing apple vacations typical winter and spring break offering?

The write-up below is from July however it also includes three strategies Cape Air uses to try to keep pilots.

Courtesy: Manistee News Advocate

Ongoing US pilot shortage could impact service at Blacker Airport

https://www.manisteenews.com/news/article/Will-the-ongoing-U-S-Pilot-shortage-affect-17308179.php

Midwestfly wrote:

Per the Fly Lansing Instagram account another new "sunny location" Assume it will be announcing apple vacations typical winter and spring break offering?

Avelo to RSW calling it.

Wneast wrote:

Midwestfly wrote:

Per the Fly Lansing Instagram account another new "sunny location" Assume it will be announcing apple vacations typical winter and spring break offering?

Avelo to RSW calling it.

That would be pretty major.

It is LAN to RSW:
https://www.flylansing.com/about/news/a ... fort-myers

The Avelo announcement today is another boost to LAN, but will they stick with it? Is Avelo targeting LAN because GRR doesn’t have space for more carriers or do they really think that LAN will yield the traffic that they’re hoping for?

The link also mentions AZO to RSW service also starting November 11. Twice weekly for both. Good to see more service to both airports!

airtran737 wrote:

The Avelo announcement today is another boost to LAN, but will they stick with it? Is Avelo targeting LAN because GRR doesn’t have space for more carriers or do they really think that LAN will yield the traffic that they’re hoping for?

I don't think it's a space issue for Avelo at GRR. The Elephants in the room for Avelo at GRR are G4 with as many as 5-7x weekly flights from GRR- PGD, and F9 operating GRR-RSW 3-4x per week seasonally. Avelo probably thinks they can draw pax who live closer to LAN and AZO who would typically drive to GRR or even DTW.

If anything, I'd say the space issue would be at RSW. Reading in the West Coast Florida thread that Avelo is in the process of making RSW a base. RSW is already quite busy and congested at times, and terminal expansion adding gates is a long way off.

This is probably easy money for Avelo during the winter months. Michigan-Florida routes (particularly on Fridays through Mondays) have some of the most favorable supply vs demand ratios for airlines trying to fill seats.

If DL can sell these same routes at $1100+ in Y from DTW, there is no reason Avelo can’t sell AZO/LAN-Florida for a healthy profit. They may even see Detroit area pax making the drive west to AZO/LAN… if the fares are low enough.

Would Avelo consider flights out of Muskegon to Florida? Maybe twice a week to MCO, RSW, TPA

Airport could serve as a secondary airport to GRR.

MKG would probably welcome service with open arms.

NJFlyer27 wrote:

MKG would probably welcome service with open arms.

So would MBS............

Did AA pull CLT from FNT ? I cant seem to find it for sale past the summer. Maybe it's seasonal?

bhxdtw wrote:

Did AA pull CLT from FNT ? I cant seem to find it for sale past the summer. Maybe it's seasonal?

Yeah they pulled it. CLT-FNT ended earlier this September.

NoahV37 wrote:

bhxdtw wrote:

Did AA pull CLT from FNT ? I cant seem to find it for sale past the summer. Maybe it's seasonal?

Yeah they pulled it. CLT-FNT ended earlier this September.

That's bizarre.. a rep told me late last year that the CLT service was performing great, especially since it opened up the mid Michigan region to lots of southern connections.. he said it performed better than ORD which I know goes out chock full almost every flight... which actually makes me wonder why they dont stick a CRJ700 on that route...

bhxdtw wrote:

NoahV37 wrote:

bhxdtw wrote:

Did AA pull CLT from FNT ? I cant seem to find it for sale past the summer. Maybe it's seasonal?

Yeah they pulled it. CLT-FNT ended earlier this September.

That's bizarre.. a rep told me late last year that the CLT service was performing great, especially since it opened up the mid Michigan region to lots of southern connections.. he said it performed better than ORD which I know goes out chock full almost every flight... which actually makes me wonder why they dont stick a CRJ700 on that route...

Nothing AA has done lately has made much sense with regards to their regional markets...Just hope they don't lose the station as their schedule is terrible going forward and looks a heck of a lot like TOL's did before they pulled it because "lack of loads" during the piss poor scheduling.

I just did DTW-APN-CIU-MSP a couple days ago. Interesting to see the flight loads on each of the legs, and of course APN-CIU was the emptiest. I talked with a couple of pax about how they feel about it and almost all of them were pretty upset. Most had booked trips months before and then all of a sudden they had an extra stop and a looooong layover

Southern Air Express C208 Caravans between MKG and ORD begins October 1st. I guess beggars can't be choosers. I wonder if they'll fly around Lake Michigan due to single engine ops?

https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/202 ... rport.html

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

I just did DTW-APN-CIU-MSP a couple days ago. Interesting to see the flight loads on each of the legs, and of course APN-CIU was the emptiest. I talked with a couple of pax about how they feel about it and almost all of them were pretty upset. Most had booked trips months before and then all of a sudden they had an extra stop and a looooong layover

Fortunetely it is short lived, as Skywest / OO is going mostly back to their original EAS schedules in October and the tag on flights are gone.
Most of the airports complained very loudly to Skywest about the tag-on / round robin / and lousy connectivity.

APN is 2x DTW
PLN is 2x DTW
CIU is1x DTW, 1x MSP
IMT is 1x DTW, 1x MSP
ESC is 2x DTW

Anecdote: Up until 2022, I regularly flew to/from LAN and AZO for business. Still traveling to Lansing & Kalamazoo, but I can no longer justify flying there on DL as the 2x daily schedules to/from DTW have become mostly unworkable for connections. I am now either flying AA, or renting a car from DTW.

Point being, if those communities can no longer get regular RJ service (who knows how much longer AA will exist there), why isn’t there more effort being made in those communities to get bus service (ie Landline) like what is happening in Philadelphia to Allentown, Atlantic City, etc. ?

I think we all know CR2s are an endangered species, and 2x daily frequency still doesn’t work even if DL upgraded to CR7s/9s. Why not just admit reality, and better serve those communities with bus flights?

tjwgrr wrote:

Southern Air Express C208 Caravans between MKG and ORD begins October 1st. I guess beggars can't be choosers. I wonder if they'll fly around Lake Michigan due to single engine ops?

https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/202 ... rport.html

Answering my own question, they hug the coastline.

tjwgrr wrote:

tjwgrr wrote:

Southern Air Express C208 Caravans between MKG and ORD begins October 1st. I guess beggars can't be choosers. I wonder if they'll fly around Lake Michigan due to single engine ops?

https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/202 ... rport.html

Answering my own question, they hug the coastline.

As a long-time flyer to MKG & GRR, I wish them well. But, it will be interesting to see how well they handle irregular ops, beginning this winter.

SkyVoice wrote:

tjwgrr wrote:

tjwgrr wrote:

Southern Air Express C208 Caravans between MKG and ORD begins October 1st. I guess beggars can't be choosers. I wonder if they'll fly around Lake Michigan due to single engine ops?

https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/202 ... rport.html

Answering my own question, they hug the coastline.

As a long-time flyer to MKG & GRR, I wish them well. But, it will be interesting to see how well they handle irregular ops, beginning this winter.

I wonder what terminal Southern Air Express uses at ORD? They interline with UA and AA- it could be a very long walk for the connection.

tjwgrr wrote:

I wonder what terminal Southern Air Express uses at ORD? They interline with UA and AA- it could be a very long walk for the connection.

From the EAS thread:

jcwr56 wrote:

For Southern taking over Muskegon to ORD, United will voluntarily accommodate them at gate F4 (terminal 2) for aircraft parking, but check-in and baggage will be done at the Common Use Counters at the end of Terminal 3 next to Cape.

tjwgrr wrote:

SkyVoice wrote:

tjwgrr wrote:

Answering my own question, they hug the coastline.

As a long-time flyer to MKG & GRR, I wish them well. But, it will be interesting to see how well they handle irregular ops, beginning this winter.

I wonder what terminal Southern Air Express uses at ORD? They interline with UA and AA- it could be a very long walk for the connection.

They use gate F4, it’s in a UA gate area but it is right near where the AA gates start so it is as convenient as you can get without bussing them between gates. Also they’re close to Alaska who they also interline with so it’s a nice spot for them

An update on DET:

Courtesy: The Detroit News

Detroit City Airport to see first FAA investment in 30 years, mayor outlines plan

"The plan is expected to unlock more than $100 million in federal funds over the course of the next 10 years and bring change to the Lasalle College Park and Gratiot-Findlay neighborhoods. The investment includes new hangars; a new control tower; improved taxiways and safety zone; new airport development opportunities; and the return of aerospace high school."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/10/13/detroit-city-airport-to-see-first-faa-investment-in-30-years-mayor-outlines-plan/69558776007/

Due to Hurricane Ian, Avelo will not begin flights to RSW from Kalamazoo and Lansing.

I know this is silly but I only just realised DL fully pulled out of FNT. For some reason I thought they still flew the ATL route.
Why has DL ceded the mid Michigan market? This must've been pre pandemic/ pilot shortages ..
I know that most of the traffic at FNT is leisure oriented with Allegiant but surely a CR9 could be filled. They used to use MD90/88/737 in recent history.

They dropped FNT-ATL at the peak of the pandemic and since it was a station exit, never resumed it. They still fly to LAN and MBS and obviously DTW so they have the eastern half of Michigan well covered. Of course the only station other than DTW in MI that has service to ATL is GRR.

DL terminated FNT in 2020 during the depth of the pandemic. They petitioned to drop the market during the CARES act..

In recent years, FNT has flowed south to beach and sun markets, and G4 has moved in and built-up a nice little operation there.

DL is a constrained airlines post-pandemic. Somewhat on aircraft but they've taken actions to rebuild their fleet, but more so on pilots. In Summer 2022 they could only staff about 83-85% of their pre-pandemic capacity. The situation is even more dire at the regionals. They don't have the pilots to fly they capacity they could. Reading the other threads, but there has been a gutting of 50 seater flying at DTW, MSP, SLC and that is a function of trying to staff the larger RJs and phase-out the 50 seaters.

Supposedly DL's regional carriers are only staffed to be able to fly about 60-65% of their pre-pandemic capacity. That has massive implications across the network.

If many of the DL loyal flyers in the FNT market are migrating to DTW, LAN, MBS then DL is getting what they can. If the low fare crowd is migrating to G4, then DL probably doesn't care.

Its strange times in the industry. Way different than it was in 2019.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

DL terminated FNT in 2020 during the depth of the pandemic. They petitioned to drop the market during the CARES act..

In recent years, FNT has flowed south to beach and sun markets, and G4 has moved in and built-up a nice little operation there.

DL is a constrained airlines post-pandemic. Somewhat on aircraft but they've taken actions to rebuild their fleet, but more so on pilots. In Summer 2022 they could only staff about 83-85% of their pre-pandemic capacity. The situation is even more dire at the regionals. They don't have the pilots to fly they capacity they could. Reading the other threads, but there has been a gutting of 50 seater flying at DTW, MSP, SLC and that is a function of trying to staff the larger RJs and phase-out the 50 seaters.

Supposedly DL's regional carriers are only staffed to be able to fly about 60-65% of their pre-pandemic capacity. That has massive implications across the network.

If many of the DL loyal flyers in the FNT market are migrating to DTW, LAN, MBS then DL is getting what they can. If the low fare crowd is migrating to G4, then DL probably doesn't care.

Its strange times in the industry. Way different than it was in 2019.

Different than 2019 yes, but 2020 was headed for a major staffing crunch at the regionals. COVID saved their blushes until this year. 2020 would have seen everything falling apart as it has this year. The staffing situations were not good heading into 2020.

American will fly mainline DFW-TVC next summer on the A320. With that, American, Delta, and United will all fly some mainline to TVC!

I have been looking at the recent DL LAN-DTW load factors. Not good. Finally starting to see the data that backs up my anecdotal experiences (and apparently I am not the only one who gave up flying DTW-LAN in June 2022, when the third DTW frequency got dropped).

2022 Load Factors on DL CX DTW-LAN:
January 43%
February 38%
March 65%
April 74%
May 74%
June 72%
July 68%
(Don’t have August 2022 data yet)

Basically you see the post-Covid climb in March & April to 74%… but then towards the end of June when the 3x daily gets reduced to 2x daily, loads start to drop again. Admittedly July is still just a n=1, but I will be curious to see what the August and September data will show.

I will say it again though… as someone who used to fly that route, 2x daily DTW-LAN is not sustainable. At a minimum 3x daily is needed (ideally 4x) to get many business travelers to consider it. Otherwise the convenience factor goes away. Intuitively, reducing daily frequencies usually increases load factors on the remaining flight(s), but for this market (and also likely for DTW-AZO & MBS), reducing daily frequencies actually reduces demand, and thus load factors drop.

The Mexican government authorized the alliance agreement between Allegiant and Viva Aerobus. Although the alliance agreement still needs US DOT approval, it's getting closer to reality.

Thoughts on GRR-CUN service? It's my understanding the FIS facility at GRR is complete, but the sterile corridor from the FIS area to gate B2 still needs to be completed.