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SQ22
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Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:45 am

Welcome to the Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news below.

Link to previous thread:

Boeing MAX-10 First Flight Thread
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:33 pm

How is the MAX-10 going? When will its EIS be?
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:04 pm

Has anyone read anything about the Pilot Interface studies, what changes it requires, how it will affect certification?
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:23 pm

The last significant thing I have heard regarding the 737 MAX 10 was information in this article by Dominick Gates in very early July (8 months ago):

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... irst-time/

Literally I've heard nothing about the flight test campaign, the changes made to cockpit procedures, the changes made to annunciations, notifications etc...If it's really to be certified by 2023, we'd be hearing something as we near Q2 of 2022.

The twin Randys never stopped talking about 737NG, but we get nothing from Deal/Calhoun on MAX10 (or even MAX7 for its part).

crickets
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:46 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
The last significant thing I have heard regarding the 737 MAX 10 was information in this article by Dominick Gates in very early July (8 months ago):

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... irst-time/

Literally I've heard nothing about the flight test campaign, the changes made to cockpit procedures, the changes made to annunciations, notifications etc...If it's really to be certified by 2023, we'd be hearing something as we near Q2 of 2022.

The twin Randys never stopped talking about 737NG, but we get nothing from Deal/Calhoun on MAX10 (or even MAX7 for its part).

crickets


Well I'm pretty sure the MAX 7s is ready to go but the FAA is holding up for whatever reason. MAX 10 might be ok but not too sure how it is progressing.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:46 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
The last significant thing I have heard regarding the 737 MAX 10 was information in this article by Dominick Gates in very early July (8 months ago):

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... irst-time/

Literally I've heard nothing about the flight test campaign, the changes made to cockpit procedures, the changes made to annunciations, notifications etc...If it's really to be certified by 2023, we'd be hearing something as we near Q2 of 2022.

The twin Randys never stopped talking about 737NG, but we get nothing from Deal/Calhoun on MAX10 (or even MAX7 for its part).

crickets


I'm thinking the FAA has a gag order over the flight test programs, not just the Max program, but the
787 and 777x programs as well :(
 
Duke91
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:08 pm

So what about the third sensor or equivalent? Didnt Boeing promise EASA a AoA sensor that is not synthetic or physical, but better than them for the max 10?
 
tullamarine
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:49 am

Didnt Boeing promise EASA a AoA sensor that is not synthetic or physical, but better than them for the max 10?

Maybe I'm being dim but what is the third option if it is not physical or simulated?
 
Duke91
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:20 am

tullamarine wrote:
Didnt Boeing promise EASA a AoA sensor that is not synthetic or physical, but better than them for the max 10?

Maybe I'm being dim but what is the third option if it is not physical or simulated?


Yeah, that is what Boeing said. They rejected the synthetic suggestion, and did not want a third physical sensor, but promised EASA a 'better' sensor without specifying it (as far as I recall).
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:25 pm

And yet a Blue Chip airline like Alaska Airlines coverts a healthy part of it's orders/options from 737-9 to 737-10 as part of a reworking of their past 145 orders/options contract.

https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2022-03-02-Putting-our-best-fleet-forward-Alaska-Airlines-recalibrates-Boeing-737-9-order
"We now envision a mix of 70 737-9s, 60 737-10s and 15 737-8s for the 145 planes."
"Alaska expects to take delivery of our first 737-8 airplanes in the second half of 2023 and our first 737-10s in early 2024."


So obviously progress is being made as Airline confidence is growing.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:00 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
And yet a Blue Chip airline like Alaska Airlines coverts a healthy part of it's orders/options from 737-9 to 737-10 as part of a reworking of their past 145 orders/options contract.

https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2022-03-02-Putting-our-best-fleet-forward-Alaska-Airlines-recalibrates-Boeing-737-9-order
"We now envision a mix of 70 737-9s, 60 737-10s and 15 737-8s for the 145 planes."
"Alaska expects to take delivery of our first 737-8 airplanes in the second half of 2023 and our first 737-10s in early 2024."


So obviously progress is being made as Airline confidence is growing.


Alaska's new livery will look great on their Max 10's :)
 
meh130
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:35 am

Given the moment arm between the center of lift and the tailplane is longer on the 737 MAX 10, I do not understand the additional concern about the 10. It is the 7 and 8 that need MCAS to counter the upward moment on the nacelles against the upward moment on the tailplane more than the 9 and 10.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:24 am

meh130 wrote:
Given the moment arm between the center of lift and the tailplane is longer on the 737 MAX 10, I do not understand the additional concern about the 10. It is the 7 and 8 that need MCAS to counter the upward moment on the nacelles against the upward moment on the tailplane more than the 9 and 10.


It is not an additional concern, it is a compromise. EASA wanted the third AoA sensor straight away. It was agreed to wait for the 737-10 certification to give Boeing time to develop the solution, that would than being retrofitted to the line up of 737-7, 737-8, 737-9.
Not providing the solution with the certification of the 737-10, Boeing and the FAA would compromise the agreement that allowed to unground the 737MAX.
 
Duke91
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:01 am

mjoelnir wrote:
meh130 wrote:
Given the moment arm between the center of lift and the tailplane is longer on the 737 MAX 10, I do not understand the additional concern about the 10. It is the 7 and 8 that need MCAS to counter the upward moment on the nacelles against the upward moment on the tailplane more than the 9 and 10.


It is not an additional concern, it is a compromise. EASA wanted the third AoA sensor straight away. It was agreed to wait for the 737-10 certification to give Boeing time to develop the solution, that would than being retrofitted to the line up of 737-7, 737-8, 737-9.
Not providing the solution with the certification of the 737-10, Boeing and the FAA would compromise the agreement that allowed to unground the 737MAX.


Is it only EASA that demands that third sensor, or are other aviation agencies demanding something similar? I have heard some agencies in Asia also wanted a third sensor retrofitted as well/the max being only conditionally ungrounded as well.
 
xl0hr
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:06 am

So as long as the 10 won't get certified there's no need to have a solution for the 3rd AoA sensor, right? Weird incentives for Boeing.

Hypothetically:
a) How much is it to retrofit the 8s and 9s out there?
b) How much does B lose postponing the 10 indefinitely?

Edit:
And doesn't a) grow as more are delivered and b) shrink as the 10s are more and more late (and compensation already amassed, hence sunk)? Seems like there could be a crossing of cost after which it's cheaper to never get the 10 out.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:19 am

xl0hr wrote:
So as long as the 10 won't get certified there's no need to have a solution for the 3rd AoA sensor, right? Weird incentives for Boeing.

Hypothetically:
a) How much is it to retrofit the 8s and 9s out there?
b) How much does B lose postponing the 10 indefinitely?

Edit:
And doesn't a) grow as more are delivered and b) shrink as the 10s are more and more late (and compensation already amassed, hence sunk)? Seems like there could be a crossing of cost after which it's cheaper to never get the 10 out.


I would say that if Boeing does not get the 737-10 out in a reasonable time, the refit of the third AoA system, to not be specific what it will be, will happen to the other frames, otherwise they could be grounded outside the USA again.

Again, IMO, Boeing and the FAA did the absolut minimum to get the other regulators to lift the grounding. The delayed introduction of the third way to measure AoA was a compromise.

How much it will cost Boeing to retrofit the other frames is completely irrelevant.
 
xl0hr
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:52 am

mjoelnir wrote:
xl0hr wrote:
So as long as the 10 won't get certified there's no need to have a solution for the 3rd AoA sensor, right? Weird incentives for Boeing.

Hypothetically:
a) How much is it to retrofit the 8s and 9s out there?
b) How much does B lose postponing the 10 indefinitely?

Edit:
And doesn't a) grow as more are delivered and b) shrink as the 10s are more and more late (and compensation already amassed, hence sunk)? Seems like there could be a crossing of cost after which it's cheaper to never get the 10 out.


I would say that if Boeing does not get the 737-10 out in a reasonable time, the refit of the third AoA system, to not be specific what it will be, will happen to the other frames, otherwise they could be grounded outside the USA again.

Again, IMO, Boeing and the FAA did the absolut minimum to get the other regulators to lift the grounding. The delayed introduction of the third way to measure AoA was a compromise.

How much it will cost Boeing to retrofit the other frames is completely irrelevant.


Do you have knowledge of the actual airworthyness directive or wherever this deal was struck? Or is it a gentleman's agreement?

I agree with you about the Sewell to return 8s and 9s to service against a promise to do better in future. I don't know how non-compliance would be sanctioned though.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:24 am

xl0hr wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
xl0hr wrote:
So as long as the 10 won't get certified there's no need to have a solution for the 3rd AoA sensor, right? Weird incentives for Boeing.

Hypothetically:
a) How much is it to retrofit the 8s and 9s out there?
b) How much does B lose postponing the 10 indefinitely?

Edit:
And doesn't a) grow as more are delivered and b) shrink as the 10s are more and more late (and compensation already amassed, hence sunk)? Seems like there could be a crossing of cost after which it's cheaper to never get the 10 out.


I would say that if Boeing does not get the 737-10 out in a reasonable time, the refit of the third AoA system, to not be specific what it will be, will happen to the other frames, otherwise they could be grounded outside the USA again.

Again, IMO, Boeing and the FAA did the absolut minimum to get the other regulators to lift the grounding. The delayed introduction of the third way to measure AoA was a compromise.

How much it will cost Boeing to retrofit the other frames is completely irrelevant.


Do you have knowledge of the actual airworthyness directive or wherever this deal was struck? Or is it a gentleman's agreement?

I agree with you about the Sewell to return 8s and 9s to service against a promise to do better in future. I don't know how non-compliance would be sanctioned though.


It was reported on it at that time. Even if it was "just" a gentleman's agreement, I doubt that either Boeing or the FAA want to play chicken with the other regulators again. The mostly "amateur lawyers", that want to see a written agreement, detailing every small thing, forget that the combined work of regulators depend on trust between the agencies, going back on agreement however it is documented, would not raise the level of trust between the agencies.

Perhaps the Chinese, that still have not ungrounded the 737MAX, are also waiting.
 
xl0hr
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:01 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The mostly "amateur lawyers", that want to see a written agreement, detailing every small thing, forget that the combined work of regulators depend on trust between the agencies, going back on agreement however it is documented, would not raise the level of trust between the agencies.


:spin: not even amateur. Economist here. Hence wondering about incentives. The network of mutual trust has failed before that's why I was asking. Excited for news.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the Chinese, that still have not ungrounded the 737MAX, are also waiting.


The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) reissued the airworthiness certificate for the MAX on 2 December of last year.

Chinese airlines are still in the process of returning their fleets to service, which is why the frames are not yet flying.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:10 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the Chinese, that still have not ungrounded the 737MAX, are also waiting.


The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) reissued the airworthiness certificate for the MAX on 2 December of last year.

Chinese airlines are still in the process of returning their fleets to service, which is why the frames are not yet flying.

The Max is still banned in Chinese airspace. China has issued an airworthiness directive though detailing how to return to service, so are satisfied with the changes.

Right now it is politics holding things up with the Max in China, not anything with the planes themselves.
 
meh130
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
meh130 wrote:
Given the moment arm between the center of lift and the tailplane is longer on the 737 MAX 10, I do not understand the additional concern about the 10. It is the 7 and 8 that need MCAS to counter the upward moment on the nacelles against the upward moment on the tailplane more than the 9 and 10.


It is not an additional concern, it is a compromise. EASA wanted the third AoA sensor straight away. It was agreed to wait for the 737-10 certification to give Boeing time to develop the solution, that would than being retrofitted to the line up of 737-7, 737-8, 737-9.
Not providing the solution with the certification of the 737-10, Boeing and the FAA would compromise the agreement that allowed to unground the 737MAX.


Got it. For some reason I thought Boeing had developed the synthetic AOA sensor already. I remember it being discussed as a means to resolve which physical AOA indicator was valid when the two AOA indicators diverged by more than the specified amount back in 2020.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:55 pm

meh130 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
meh130 wrote:
Given the moment arm between the center of lift and the tailplane is longer on the 737 MAX 10, I do not understand the additional concern about the 10. It is the 7 and 8 that need MCAS to counter the upward moment on the nacelles against the upward moment on the tailplane more than the 9 and 10.


It is not an additional concern, it is a compromise. EASA wanted the third AoA sensor straight away. It was agreed to wait for the 737-10 certification to give Boeing time to develop the solution, that would than being retrofitted to the line up of 737-7, 737-8, 737-9.
Not providing the solution with the certification of the 737-10, Boeing and the FAA would compromise the agreement that allowed to unground the 737MAX.


Got it. For some reason I thought Boeing had developed the synthetic AOA sensor already. I remember it being discussed as a means to resolve which physical AOA indicator was valid when the two AOA indicators diverged by more than the specified amount back in 2020.

I believe they have a synthetic on the 787 already....see wiki link below.... I think Boeing just does not want to deploy on the MAX...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_air_data_system
 
georgiabill
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:37 pm

How many flight hours has the Max flown to date? How many hours would it have taken to certify the Max 10 for flight operations under normal circumstances? How many flight hours after a third sensor is designed ground tested and installed will be needed to certify the Max 10 for commercial service?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:46 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the Chinese, that still have not ungrounded the 737MAX, are also waiting.


The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) reissued the airworthiness certificate for the MAX on 2 December of last year.

Chinese airlines are still in the process of returning their fleets to service, which is why the frames are not yet flying.


Do we have any PRC registered 737MAX flying, or 737MAX entering PRC airspace, or 737MAX being accepted for delivery by an PRC carrier after the grounding?
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 am

georgiabill wrote:
How many flight hours has the Max flown to date? How many hours would it have taken to certify the Max 10 for flight operations under normal circumstances? How many flight hours after a third sensor is designed ground tested and installed will be needed to certify the Max 10 for commercial service?


As of today and the max being recertified, it has flown a million flight hours
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:33 am

par13del wrote:
I believe they have a synthetic on the 787 already....see wiki link below.... I think Boeing just does not want to deploy on the MAX...


I was under the impression there were concerns how the 787's AoA would integrate with the 737's avionics suite and Boeing was therefore developing a unique synthetic sensor for the 737 MAX, which completed critical design review in November and is expected to be flight-tested on the 737-10 this year.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:36 pm

In this thead about MAX deliveries viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1470969
I saw this:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I’m cautiously optimistic that things are improving.
I mostly support the 777-9 program, but dabble a bit in 737 and 787. The Max disaster got everyone’s attention. From my observation I feel like safety concerns are taken more seriously now.
Knowing what I know about the 737 fixes and engineering updates, I have no hesitation to put my family on one.
I don’t think Calhoun is the right person to lead the company - then he brings in a GE crony as CFO. But again, I have some optimism that the engineering culture is improving.
Problem is the FAA is demanding all sorts of alerting and color changes on the 777-9 and 787-10 that do absolutely nothing to improve safety. The FAA IS making some revised interpretations of a few FARs and ACs. In my engineering judgement these changes may even be a detraction.


I wonder if any of this alerting and color changing is applicable to 10-MAX as well to improve Pilot interfaces?

Stitch wrote:
par13del wrote:
I believe they have a synthetic on the 787 already....see wiki link below.... I think Boeing just does not want to deploy on the MAX...

I was under the impression there were concerns how the 787's AoA would integrate with the 737's avionics suite and Boeing was therefore developing a unique synthetic sensor for the 737 MAX, which completed critical design review in November and is expected to be flight-tested on the 737-10 this year.


Thanks Stitch. I had missed that bit of news. Will be looking for flight test that feature this synthetic 3rd AoA sensor.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:00 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
How many flight hours has the Max flown to date? How many hours would it have taken to certify the Max 10 for flight operations under normal circumstances? How many flight hours after a third sensor is designed ground tested and installed will be needed to certify the Max 10 for commercial service?


As of today and the max being recertified, it has flown a million flight hours


Do you know how many flights have been completed to get the million hours?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:19 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
Stitch wrote:
par13del wrote:
I believe they have a synthetic on the 787 already....see wiki link below.... I think Boeing just does not want to deploy on the MAX...


I was under the impression there were concerns how the 787's AoA would integrate with the 737's avionics suite and Boeing was therefore developing a unique synthetic sensor for the 737 MAX, which completed critical design review in November and is expected to be flight-tested on the 737-10 this year.


This is correct. The 787 and 777-9 have synthetic AOA SPD as a backup. They also GPS ALT as a backup. The Integrated Flight Controls function manages the Air Data and backup air data functions.

The 737 has such a significantly different architecture that it’s not feasible from an engineering standpoint to develop these same features on the 737.

There is however a different Enhanced AOA function being developed for the 737. The 737-10 is getting a lot of product enhancements.
 
9Patch
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:37 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Alaska's new livery will look great on their Max 10's :)

Are you talking about the livery that was unveiled in 2015 or is there a newer one?
https://www.norebbo.com/alaska-airlines-new-livery/
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:08 am

9Patch wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Alaska's new livery will look great on their Max 10's :)

Are you talking about the livery that was unveiled in 2015 or is there a newer one?
https://www.norebbo.com/alaska-airlines-new-livery/


Yes, the recent livery rolled out in 2015
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:28 am

What’s the latest on first deliveries to customers?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:56 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
What’s the latest on first deliveries to customers?

It's supposed to be next year IIRC. However, I never thought the MAX 7 (which is just a shrink of the already certified MAX 8) still wouldn't be certified. Who knows how long the FAA will take on the MAX 10 with the new gear design, the synthetic 3rd AoA measurement and whatever alert system changes are being made.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:44 pm

Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:43 pm

How soon before this receives publicity along the lines "US Congress exempts US manufacturer Boeing from safety ruling required of all other aircraft"?
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:38 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business


JerseyFlyer wrote:
How soon before this receives publicity along the lines "US Congress exempts US manufacturer Boeing from safety ruling required of all other aircraft"?


It would have to be a 6 month extension that applies to all aircraft development from all manufacturers. I can see both sides of the argument that MAX10 must be as safe as possible... but that it also presents a safety risk if it's too different than MAX7, MAX8 or MAX9.

I think it definitely shuts the door to migrating MAX10 gear and thrust bump to the MAX9 for a MAX 9ER. Boeing would never go through the required certification exercises and one-off changes that would be required for a later introduction of a MAX 9ER. This requirement ensures that the MAX7 and MAX10 are the very last 737s ever.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:49 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business


I don't think this deserves a "here we go again" response. If it was determined that the 737 needed EICAS to fly safely then the MAX 8, MAX 9 and (soon?) MAX 7 shouldn't have been certified. The issue here seems to be how long the FAA is taking with the certification.

If Boeing has already submitted everything and done all of the required flight testing but the FAA takes until sometime in 2023 to go through all of it, why should that require Boeing to have to cancel the variant? Even if they did the modification required to the MAX 10 flight deck at whatever expense it would take, the MAX 10 would no longer have commonality with the rest of the 737 models still flying (NGs and MAXs). That would defeat the purpose of any airline buying MAX 10s. If you look at United, it would make a lot more sense just to get A321NEOs a that point instead of having an oddball fleet of 737 MAX 10s that are not common with any of their fleets.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:59 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business


JerseyFlyer wrote:
How soon before this receives publicity along the lines "US Congress exempts US manufacturer Boeing from safety ruling required of all other aircraft"?


It would have to be a 6 month extension that applies to all aircraft development from all manufacturers. I can see both sides of the argument that MAX10 must be as safe as possible... but that it also presents a safety risk if it's too different than MAX7, MAX8 or MAX9.

I think it definitely shuts the door to migrating MAX10 gear and thrust bump to the MAX9 for a MAX 9ER. Boeing would never go through the required certification exercises and one-off changes that would be required for a later introduction of a MAX 9ER. This requirement ensures that the MAX7 and MAX10 are the very last 737s ever.


The devil may be in the details on that one. I'd have to see how the law is worded. If the only change was the gear and thrust bump would it be considered a new certification? I don't know. Also, nothing would stop congress from amending the law to carve out those types of derivatives.

It is very likely that the MAX 10 will be the last 737 ever certified. A MAX 9ER isn't really going to compete well against the A321XLR. Any airline that is 737 exclusive for narrowbodies and needed that kind of range for a couple of routes could probably just get a handful of MAX 7s and configure them low density.

I don't think they were really considering a MAX 9ER anyway. I think they were talking about putting the MAX 9 gear on the MAX 8 and increasing MTOW to make a MAX 8ER.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:41 pm

planecane wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business


I don't think this deserves a "here we go again" response. If it was determined that the 737 needed EICAS to fly safely then the MAX 8, MAX 9 and (soon?) MAX 7 shouldn't have been certified. The issue here seems to be how long the FAA is taking with the certification.

If Boeing has already submitted everything and done all of the required flight testing but the FAA takes until sometime in 2023 to go through all of it, why should that require Boeing to have to cancel the variant? Even if they did the modification required to the MAX 10 flight deck at whatever expense it would take, the MAX 10 would no longer have commonality with the rest of the 737 models still flying (NGs and MAXs). That would defeat the purpose of any airline buying MAX 10s. If you look at United, it would make a lot more sense just to get A321NEOs a that point instead of having an oddball fleet of 737 MAX 10s that are not common with any of their fleets.


Your conclusion is, that the delay is at the FAA. What if the delay is Boeing not getting it's ducks in a row? One also has to think about what other regulators think. The 737-8 and 737-9 have been conditionally certified. They are waiting on changes first demonstrated with the 737-10 and than fitted to the 737-8 and -9 including the already delivered frames.
 
planecane
Posts: 1968
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
planecane wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Boeing looking for exemption on MAX 10 development. Is asking for either an exemption or 6 month extension.

Here we go again!! :banghead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... d_business


I don't think this deserves a "here we go again" response. If it was determined that the 737 needed EICAS to fly safely then the MAX 8, MAX 9 and (soon?) MAX 7 shouldn't have been certified. The issue here seems to be how long the FAA is taking with the certification.

If Boeing has already submitted everything and done all of the required flight testing but the FAA takes until sometime in 2023 to go through all of it, why should that require Boeing to have to cancel the variant? Even if they did the modification required to the MAX 10 flight deck at whatever expense it would take, the MAX 10 would no longer have commonality with the rest of the 737 models still flying (NGs and MAXs). That would defeat the purpose of any airline buying MAX 10s. If you look at United, it would make a lot more sense just to get A321NEOs a that point instead of having an oddball fleet of 737 MAX 10s that are not common with any of their fleets.


Your conclusion is, that the delay is at the FAA. What if the delay is Boeing not getting it's ducks in a row? One also has to think about what other regulators think. The 737-8 and 737-9 have been conditionally certified. They are waiting on changes first demonstrated with the 737-10 and than fitted to the 737-8 and -9 including the already delivered frames.


The article says that the FAA is moving people from other projects to MAX 10 certification so that is why I concluded the delay is caused by the FAA. The changes that are required by the other regulators that will debut on the MAX 10 are not the changes that are required by this law that sets the 12/31/22 deadline.
 
SEU
Posts: 480
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:39 pm

What exactly is the issue with the -7MAX and -10MAX that means they cannot be certified like the -8 and -9?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
(The) conclusion is, that the delay is at the FAA. What if the delay is Boeing not getting it's ducks in a row?


That Boeing is "expressing concern about the schedule for the FAA’s certification of MAX 10" and the FAA is “pulling people from other projects to come help” on MAX 10 certification and ensure the FAA isn’t blamed for delaying the process strongly implies the 737-10 not receiving FAA certification by the trigger date is due to the FAA and not Boeing.

mjoelnir wrote:
One also has to think about what other regulators think. The 737-8 and 737-9 have been conditionally certified. They are waiting on changes first demonstrated with the 737-10 and than fitted to the 737-8 and -9 including the already delivered frames.


Considering that conditional certification of those models is related to improvements to the AOA sensors and not the inclusion of EICAS, it should not be a concern that EASA or other agencies would rescind said certification over the non-inclusion of EICAS in those models.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:45 pm

Me thinks it stinks because it seems Boeing is asking for special treatment as opposed to having a product that stands on it's own merit. My most humble opinion, of course!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:17 am

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
(The) conclusion is, that the delay is at the FAA. What if the delay is Boeing not getting it's ducks in a row?


That Boeing is "expressing concern about the schedule for the FAA’s certification of MAX 10" and the FAA is “pulling people from other projects to come help” on MAX 10 certification and ensure the FAA isn’t blamed for delaying the process strongly implies the 737-10 not receiving FAA certification by the trigger date is due to the FAA and not Boeing.

mjoelnir wrote:
One also has to think about what other regulators think. The 737-8 and 737-9 have been conditionally certified. They are waiting on changes first demonstrated with the 737-10 and than fitted to the 737-8 and -9 including the already delivered frames.


Considering that conditional certification of those models is related to improvements to the AOA sensors and not the inclusion of EICAS, it should not be a concern that EASA or other agencies would rescind said certification over the non-inclusion of EICAS in those models.


EASA did want EICAS. The regulation making EICAS mandatory is from around 1980. The 737 classic got an exemption, than the NG and than the MAX. The 737 has been for years the only new build frame flying around without it. The uncoordinated cacophony of alarms was judged a contributing factor to the two MAX crashes.
The 737-10 needs an EASA certification to be viable. I do not know if there was an agreement between the regulators about stricter certification rules including implementation dates, but I would assume so.
 
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Polot
Posts: 13819
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:25 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
(The) conclusion is, that the delay is at the FAA. What if the delay is Boeing not getting it's ducks in a row?


That Boeing is "expressing concern about the schedule for the FAA’s certification of MAX 10" and the FAA is “pulling people from other projects to come help” on MAX 10 certification and ensure the FAA isn’t blamed for delaying the process strongly implies the 737-10 not receiving FAA certification by the trigger date is due to the FAA and not Boeing.

mjoelnir wrote:
One also has to think about what other regulators think. The 737-8 and 737-9 have been conditionally certified. They are waiting on changes first demonstrated with the 737-10 and than fitted to the 737-8 and -9 including the already delivered frames.


Considering that conditional certification of those models is related to improvements to the AOA sensors and not the inclusion of EICAS, it should not be a concern that EASA or other agencies would rescind said certification over the non-inclusion of EICAS in those models.


EASA did want EICAS. The regulation making EICAS mandatory is from around 1980. The 737 classic got an exemption, than the NG and than the MAX. The 737 has been for years the only new build frame flying around without it. The uncoordinated cacophony of alarms was judged a contributing factor to the two MAX crashes.
The 737-10 needs an EASA certification to be viable. I do not know if there was an agreement between the regulators about stricter certification rules including implementation dates, but I would assume so.

Wanting EICAS and requiring it as part of the “conditional certification” (and thus rescinding certification if never adopted) are two entirely different things.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:45 am

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Stitch wrote:

That Boeing is "expressing concern about the schedule for the FAA’s certification of MAX 10" and the FAA is “pulling people from other projects to come help” on MAX 10 certification and ensure the FAA isn’t blamed for delaying the process strongly implies the 737-10 not receiving FAA certification by the trigger date is due to the FAA and not Boeing.



Considering that conditional certification of those models is related to improvements to the AOA sensors and not the inclusion of EICAS, it should not be a concern that EASA or other agencies would rescind said certification over the non-inclusion of EICAS in those models.


EASA did want EICAS. The regulation making EICAS mandatory is from around 1980. The 737 classic got an exemption, than the NG and than the MAX. The 737 has been for years the only new build frame flying around without it. The uncoordinated cacophony of alarms was judged a contributing factor to the two MAX crashes.
The 737-10 needs an EASA certification to be viable. I do not know if there was an agreement between the regulators about stricter certification rules including implementation dates, but I would assume so.

Wanting EICAS and requiring it as part of the “conditional certification” (and thus rescinding certification if never adopted) are two entirely different things.


The 737-10 does not have an EASA certification, so why do you talk about rescinding?

There is a date when no certification without EICAS should be approved. An end point to over 40 years on giving exemptions on this point, to one family of aircraft only. Everybody else has to provide EICAS since more than 40 years ago.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13819
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:52 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

EASA did want EICAS. The regulation making EICAS mandatory is from around 1980. The 737 classic got an exemption, than the NG and than the MAX. The 737 has been for years the only new build frame flying around without it. The uncoordinated cacophony of alarms was judged a contributing factor to the two MAX crashes.
The 737-10 needs an EASA certification to be viable. I do not know if there was an agreement between the regulators about stricter certification rules including implementation dates, but I would assume so.

Wanting EICAS and requiring it as part of the “conditional certification” (and thus rescinding certification if never adopted) are two entirely different things.


The 737-10 does not have an EASA certification, so why do you talk about rescinding?

There is a date when no certification without EICAS should be approved. An end point to over 40 years on giving exemptions on this point, to one family of aircraft only. Everybody else has to provide EICAS since more than 40 years ago.

Since EASA has not require the 737-8/9 to get eventual EICAS unlike the synthetic airspeed indicator or whatever I think it’s pretty clear EASA will end up extending the EICAS exemption to the 737-10.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:42 am

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
Wanting EICAS and requiring it as part of the “conditional certification” (and thus rescinding certification if never adopted) are two entirely different things.


The 737-10 does not have an EASA certification, so why do you talk about rescinding?

There is a date when no certification without EICAS should be approved. An end point to over 40 years on giving exemptions on this point, to one family of aircraft only. Everybody else has to provide EICAS since more than 40 years ago.

Since EASA has not require the 737-8/9 to get eventual EICAS unlike the synthetic airspeed indicator or whatever I think it’s pretty clear EASA will end up extending the EICAS exemption to the 737-10.


If the agencies agreed on an end date for the exemption to EICAS, why should everybody agree to extend it?

Anyway, if Boeing does get an exemption again this time for the 737-10, it will be the last version of the 737, if Boeing does not develop EICAS for the 737.
 
Duke91
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Boeing 737 MAX 10 Development / Testing / Production Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:44 am

My impression is that the 737 is too old for either EICAS or a third sensor, whatever it may be, to work. At least in German forums, they said that the computing power is definitely not sufficient for a third sensor, let alone a synthetic one which is why BA tried to work around it with a "new fix", probably one which does not require as much computing power... I am not sure how they want to achieve that.

If that is the issue, I am not confident that Boeing will find a software fix for another hardware problem again.
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