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papatango
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:22 pm

There was also a rumor that Delta was picking up one SAA A350
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:58 pm

IFC
3851 RTS punted to 1/8
3036 RTS 1/8
 
NW747-400
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
No doubt they can fly a while, but the CASM vs. a 321neo or MAX10 is ugly. DL will retire them as free cash flow allows, well before the world runs out of parts.




But isn't the CASM of the 757-300 even comparable to the 321s? Or maybe not



DL won't maintain a separate pilot work group for 16 753s and 21 764s


Well, the 764 is already a separate pilot group. They maintained a separate 744, 777, and have maintained a small 350 pilot group, although that fleet is projected to grow dramatically.

Small pilot groups are not the deciding factor when it comes to fleet decisions. The pilots operating those small fleets are cost neutral in the sense that they would still be on the payroll on another fleet anyway. Maintenance costs, parts availability and fuel costs have a far more dramatic effect on fleet decisions.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:19 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Happy New Year as well.
I started working on this yesterday, but here is a high-level summary of where things stand for each fleet type, with key information:

YE 2021 Fleet count:

Small Narrowbody:
B712: 55
A221: 41
A223: 10
A319: 57

Medium Narrowbody:
A320: 56
B738: 77

Large Narrowbody:
B739: 132
A321: 127
B752: 100
B753: 16

Widebody:
B763: 41
B764: 21
A332: 11
A339: 11
A333: 21
A359: 15

New Deliveries Scheduled for 2022:
(not including second-hand acquisitions:
A221: 4 (balance of order)
A223: 7
A321NEO: 18
A339: 9
A359: 2

Detailed commentary by fleet type:

Small Narrowbody:
B717:
55 active
12F / 16 W / 78Y = 110 seats
Fleet numbers (95xx)

- Down from 91 active pre-pandemic
- Internal discussion / rumors of fleet returning up to an active fleet of 64 for Summer 2022
- A few frames have been reactivated over the past couple of months, as the fleet was down to as low as 45 during the depth of the pandemic
- Remaining pilot bases at ATL & DTW. A limited amount of MSP routes have returned, but flown by aircraft and pilots bridged from ATL & DTW.
- Some of the owned frames, stored at BYH have been parted-out
- DL has publicly / officially said, as of late 2020, they intend to retire the 717s by the end of 2025
- As of late 2021 has indicated that the 717 is a flex-fleet / flex-capacity and can ramp-up/down as market conditions dictate

A221:
41 active, 4 on-order
12 F / 15 W / 82 Y = 109 seats
Fleet numbers: (81xx)
- Remaining 4 on-order to be delivered in 2022

A223:
10 active, 35 on-order
12 F / 30 W / 88 Y = 130 seats
Fleet numbers: (83xx)
- 7 to be delivered in 2022
- Additional 50 options beyond the current firm orders

A319:
57 active (~6 in storage)
12 F / 18 W / 102 Y = 132 seats
Fleet numbers (31xx)
- Average fleet age is 20 years old, similar vintage to the 738 fleet
- Remaining aircraft in storage anticipated to be reactivated in 2022
- Anticipated to remain in service through end-of-life

Medium Narrowbody
A320:
56 active
16 F / 18 W / 123 Y = 157 seats
Fleet numbers (32xx)
- During the depth of the pandemic, the 10 next-up for maintenance were slated to be retired, but 4 of those were reactived, but the remaining 6 remained retired and recent photos have indicated some part-out activity on some of those frames
- The oldest tranche of A320s are near or over 30 years old, and likely have been through their last and final heavy maintenance checks, and likely coming due for retirement in the next 2-4 years
- The youngest tranche of A320s is of similar vintage to the A319 fleet (18-23 years old) and will likely be in-service through end of life

B738:
77 active (none remain in storage)
16 F / 36 W / 108Y = 160 seats
Fleet numbers (37xx)
- Rumored to be coming due for interior mods, that were put on-hold during the pandemic
- All are around 20-22 years old, and anticipated to be in the fleet until end of life.

Large Narrowbody:
B739:
132 active (none remain in storage), 29 acquired/not-yet-inducted
20 F / 21 W / 139 Y = 180 seats
Fleet numbers (38xx, 39xx)
- 29 additional frames acquired second-hand to start entering service in mid-2022, anticipated to enter service at an estimated rate of 2-3 per month, with all in service by late 2023

A321 (CEO):
127 active
20 F / 29 W / 142 Y = 191 seats
Fleet numbers (30xx, 10xx)
- The final, 127th and end of the the line CEO was delivered in December 2021
- Fleet was all delivered new to DL between 2016-2021

A321 (NEO):
155 on-order, with 70 additional options
Config TBD
Fleet numbers TBD
- 18 scheduled for delivery in 2022
- First planned routes to be out of BOS in mid-2022 (nothing loaded yet)
- New First class seat to be unveiled on the NEO fleet

B752:
100 in active fleet (~11 are in storage), & additional 11 in the 75C /NBA VIP charter configuration)
75D (62): 20 F / 29 W / 150 Y = 199 seats
75H (15): 20 F / 29 W / 150 Y = 199 seats
75G (5): 20 F / 41 W / 132 Y = 193 seats
75S (18): 16 J / 44 W / 108 Y = 168 seats
75C (11): 72 F = 72 seats
Fleet Numbers:
75D/H: (6xx, 67xx, 56xx – PMNW)
75G: (6819-6823)
75S: (6801-6818)
75C: (6xx)

- publicly said that about 60 will be retired later this decade, but the newer balance of the fleet may fly in to the early 2030s
- Some of the oldest 30+ year old 75Ds have likely been through their last and final HMV check, meaning they will be retired in the next 2-4 years
- Not yet considered a flex fleet, but are getting to that point soon
- Pilot bases (7ER) have been consolidated to SEA, LAX, ATL, NYC but there is still plenty of 757 flying out of DTW, MSP, SLC

B753:
16 active
75Y: 24 F / 32 W / 178 Y = 234 seats
Fleet numbers: 58xx
- Likely to be around through end-of-life, at least end of decade

Widebody:
B763:
41 active
76L: 36 J / 32 W / 143 Y = 211 seats
76Z: 26 J / 35 W / 165 Y = 226 seats
76K: 26 J / 18 PS / 21 W / 151 Y = 216 seats
Fleet numbers: (1xx, 12xx, 15xx, 16xx, 17xx)
- Down from pre-pandemic fleet of 54, with frames primarily retired and sold to cargo conversion
- Publicly announced as of late-2020 full retirement planned by end 2025
- As of late 2021, referred to as a flex-fleet / capacity as market conditions dictate, and has walked-back from a definitive retirement date
- 76K mod, adding PS/premium select to at least 19 frames, Rumors that could be put into more / all frames as market conditions dictate on those that remain beyond 2022-2023

B764:
21 total, (19 in service, 2 in storage)
34 J / 20 PS / 28 W / 156 Y = 238 seats
Fleet numbers (18xx)
- 2 remain in storage, anticipated to come out in early 2022 and get PS mods before returning to service
- Around 20 years old, anticipated to remain in service through end-of-life
- 765 pilots bases at NYC and ATL

A332:
11 active
332: 34 J / 32 W / 168 Y = 234 seats
3M2: 34 J / 21 PS / 24 W / 144 Y = 223 seats
Fleet numbers: (3351-3361)
- Mods underway for Premium Select
- Aircraft at mid-live, 15-17 years

A333:
31 active:
333: 34 J / 40 W / 219 Y = 293 seats
3M3: 34 J / 21 PS / 24 W / 203 Y = 282 seats
Fleet numbers: (3301-3331)
- Mods underway for Premium Select
- PMNW original aircraft (21) at mid-live, 15-17 years, the DL top-up order (10) are 5-7 years old

A339:
11 active, 26 on-order
339: 29 J / 28 PS / 56 W / 168 Y = 281 seats
Fleet numbers: (34xx)
- 11 of 37 delivered
- 9 scheduled for delivery in 2022 (I believe it was originally to be 8, and the thereafter an additional frame was pulled ahead from 2023 to 2022)

A359:
15 active, 20 on-order, 7 acquired/not-yet-in service
32 J / 48 PS / 36 W / 190 Y = 306 seats
Fleet numbers (35xx)
- 2 new A359s to be delivered in 2022
- 7 second-hand acquired frames, to start being added to the fleet in mid-2022 through 2023 at an estimated rate 1 about every other month
- Total future fleet to be 42 frames (delivered, on-order, acquired)


Nice summary.

A few edits for you: hull count - 130 739s, 31 333s. 321neo ship number 5001-5155 / N501DA. Config 194 in 20/42/132.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:54 pm

So with predictions on when the 757s are phasing out/leaving, any idea when Delta would replace the 11 charter 752s? Most people say the 752s would probably still stick around in somewhat noticeable numbers until the late 2020s and leave entirely by the early 2030s for sure. With this, would DL switch to 321s for the charters sooner or later? As the 757s become smaller in quantity, would it be too much of a hassle to keep them around?
 
audidudi
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:31 pm

papatango wrote:
There was also a rumor that Delta was picking up one ez-SAA A350

One or both?
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:41 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
So with predictions on when the 757s are phasing out/leaving, any idea when Delta would replace the 11 charter 752s? Most people say the 752s would probably still stick around in somewhat noticeable numbers until the late 2020s and leave entirely by the early 2030s for sure. With this, would DL switch to 321s for the charters sooner or later? As the 757s become smaller in quantity, would it be too much of a hassle to keep them around?


They are owned by the NBA, operated by DL. IIRC most are quite old, 1980s builds. DL will be flying 757s for a while yet. When the day finally comes, I'm sure the NBA will figure out a new arrangement that works well for both parties.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11119
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:18 pm

NW747-400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:



But isn't the CASM of the 757-300 even comparable to the 321s? Or maybe not



DL won't maintain a separate pilot work group for 16 753s and 21 764s


Well, the 764 is already a separate pilot group. They maintained a separate 744, 777, and have maintained a small 350 pilot group, although that fleet is projected to grow dramatically.

Small pilot groups are not the deciding factor when it comes to fleet decisions. The pilots operating those small fleets are cost neutral in the sense that they would still be on the payroll on another fleet anyway. Maintenance costs, parts availability and fuel costs have a far more dramatic effect on fleet decisions.


They had a lot of 747 capacity. Sure, that was another group. They eliminated the 777 group. Sure, they had a small A350 group because that's the future of long-haul at Delta. Sixteen 753s don't have the revenue potential that sixteen 744s had - and are much more readily replaced on their missions, even if it takes more flights on smaller gauge to do it.

The cost-neutral argument completely ignores the problem of work-group fragmentation and the costs that brings. You wind up with far fewer actual working hours per pilot - yet those pilots still expect contractual pay. Immediately pre-bankuptcy, UA pilots worked on avg just 42 hours a month. That's poison.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3237
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:31 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
litz wrote:

And the 757-200s are the backbone of the sports charter fleet, which are also many short flights ...



But that doesn't really matter since Delta already removed winglets for those 11 frames right?

That fleet is mostly NBA exclusive. Per the contract they can be used for other charters but I don't think they use them as much. The planes are not even owned by Delta. Most of the non NBA charters are done with regular Delta 757/767. I would guess the owned Delta fleet would be more profitable to the airline to operate unless the customer really wants the premium product the NBA fleet offers. For most teams I doubt they have enough seats.


Some of those 11 are routinely used for NHL charters, especially ships 649 ,650 and 651.
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:45 pm

They still have a few that don't have winglets at all. I love the 757, it's in my top 3 favorite. I was recently on a DL 757 and it have broken lavatories, no running water and the IFE was broken. It was a "$h!tty" 5 hours!
 
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747classic
Posts: 4236
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 pm

In the following article from you can find some background info about the Blended winglet versus the scimitar blended winglets at the 757 :
http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/p ... TOPS_2.pdf

And : https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 07683.html
 
NW747-400
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:22 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:


DL won't maintain a separate pilot work group for 16 753s and 21 764s


Well, the 764 is already a separate pilot group. They maintained a separate 744, 777, and have maintained a small 350 pilot group, although that fleet is projected to grow dramatically.

Small pilot groups are not the deciding factor when it comes to fleet decisions. The pilots operating those small fleets are cost neutral in the sense that they would still be on the payroll on another fleet anyway. Maintenance costs, parts availability and fuel costs have a far more dramatic effect on fleet decisions.


They had a lot of 747 capacity. Sure, that was another group. They eliminated the 777 group. Sure, they had a small A350 group because that's the future of long-haul at Delta. Sixteen 753s don't have the revenue potential that sixteen 744s had - and are much more readily replaced on their missions, even if it takes more flights on smaller gauge to do it.

The cost-neutral argument completely ignores the problem of work-group fragmentation and the costs that brings. You wind up with far fewer actual working hours per pilot - yet those pilots still expect contractual pay. Immediately pre-bankuptcy, UA pilots worked on avg just 42 hours a month. That's poison.


Sure, I over-simplified the cost to crew a small fleet. You are correct that it costs a bit more. An airline would have to carry a few extra pilots for reserve staffing for example, but that cost is incredibly small compared to all the other factors that go in to fleet planning. Airlines have become very good at maximizing staff efficiency, and the days of crews getting paid full guarantee to fly half a schedule are long, long gone.

You help bolster the point by acknowledging a 753 would be easy to replace with other frames. That comes down to the cost of parts inventory, MRO costs on a dated frame and engine, fuel burn, etc. Staffing a fleet of 16 frames would be easy. Just collapse the fleet to a single base and operate turns to and from that base.

If pilot costs were that substantial on small fleets, the 764 would have been integrated in with the 757/767 pilot group, but it’s been separate since the 764 was delivered in 2000. Not only are there only 21 frames in that fleet, staffing is split between two crew bases.

In any case, I do agree the 753 won’t stick around once the 752 is retired. At least not for long. It will cost far too much to keep a such an old frame going, especially with those PW2040’s hanging under the wings. It won’t be from pilot costs though. :)
 
dfwking
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:30 am

Anyone know when DL is going to get their new order A359s from Airbus? I know they are supposed to have 44 aircraft in the end state. They currently have 18 in service, 9 used aircraft coming from LATAM. This leaves 17 new-build aircraft left to be delivered.. Anyone know when these 17 are going to be delivered?
 
Josh76040
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 11:02 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:40 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
they don't even have regular winglets on all of their 757's, which I was kinda surprised about.

That's because some of the fleet can not have winglets installed due to previously installed wing repairs. Each aircraft had to be approved for the mod. The wing loading that the blended winglet adds was too much for a few of the aircraft.

One of the planes actually was damaged by a contract outfit during the winglet mod. The required repairs to fix the damage took it out of the winglet program. That contract outfit did not do another winglet mod at Delta.



So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:14 am

dfwking wrote:
Anyone know when DL is going to get their new order A359s from Airbus? I know they are supposed to have 44 aircraft in the end state. They currently have 18 in service, 9 used aircraft coming from LATAM. This leaves 17 new-build aircraft left to be delivered.. Anyone know when these 17 are going to be delivered?


3516 has done its second flight, and 3517 appears to be getting close to its first flight
https://aibfamily.flights/A350/530
https://aibfamily.flights/A350/545
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9322
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:27 am

15 A359s currently in service, 2 new deliveries coming in early 2022, and the acquired A359s to start coming into the fleet mid 2022 at rate of about 1 every other month thereafter.
 
dfwking
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:06 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
15 A359s currently in service, 2 new deliveries coming in early 2022, and the acquired A359s to start coming into the fleet mid 2022 at rate of about 1 every other month thereafter.


Something doesn't add up here. Delta in their Sep 2021 10Q says that there are 18 in the fleet and 26 purchased (44 total):
img.PNG
https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_financials/2021/q3/DAL-9.30.2021-10Q.pdf

Out of the 26, 9 are former LATAM, 2 are being delivered in 2022, anyone know when the other 15 come in?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:31 am

While from a financial standpoint they may have 18 per the 10-Q, meaning they are now paying for the leased on some of the used aircraft they only have the 15 originally delivered A359s in service. Mods on the acquired aircraft are not going to start until mid-year. 2 new build A359s will join the fleet in the next couple of months.

15 in active, revenue service
20 on-order, new from Airbus, 2 of which to be delivered in 2022
9 used, acquired A359s to be added tot fleet, none in service, but to start joining to the fleet in mid-2022
---
44 total
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:07 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
321neo ship number 5001-5155 / N501DA. Config 194 in 20/42/132.


I’m surprised Delta does not recycle more old registrations. I must say I prefer the older plane (and livery).

 
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AirKevin
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Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:12 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
they don't even have regular winglets on all of their 757's, which I was kinda surprised about.

That's because some of the fleet can not have winglets installed due to previously installed wing repairs. Each aircraft had to be approved for the mod. The wing loading that the blended winglet adds was too much for a few of the aircraft.

One of the planes actually was damaged by a contract outfit during the winglet mod. The required repairs to fix the damage took it out of the winglet program. That contract outfit did not do another winglet mod at Delta.

I mean, I don't think those planes are in danger of falling out of the sky if that's what you're getting at.

So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:46 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
they don't even have regular winglets on all of their 757's, which I was kinda surprised about.

That's because some of the fleet can not have winglets installed due to previously installed wing repairs. Each aircraft had to be approved for the mod. The wing loading that the blended winglet adds was too much for a few of the aircraft.

One of the planes actually was damaged by a contract outfit during the winglet mod. The required repairs to fix the damage took it out of the winglet program. That contract outfit did not do another winglet mod at Delta.



So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.

Not weakened; no longer suitable for the winglet program, big difference.
 
n515cr
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:59 pm

1706 to ferry to CAN 1/9
185 to exit CAN 1/9 (should be L-to-Z mod not 76K, but we shall see)

IFC
3851/3036 RTS 1/8
3037 to RTS 1/9. All 321s will be complete with ViaSat IFC at that point.
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:49 pm

n515cr wrote:
dfwking wrote:
Anyone know when DL is going to get their new order A359s from Airbus? I know they are supposed to have 44 aircraft in the end state. They currently have 18 in service, 9 used aircraft coming from LATAM. This leaves 17 new-build aircraft left to be delivered.. Anyone know when these 17 are going to be delivered?


3516 has done its second flight, and 3517 appears to be getting close to its first flight
https://aibfamily.flights/A350/530
https://aibfamily.flights/A350/545

3517 had its maiden flight today
 
MO11
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:26 am

N990DL and N913DE sold this week to Aero Air, presumably for spares use/engines for the MD-87 tankers.
 
Josh76040
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 11:02 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:44 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
That's because some of the fleet can not have winglets installed due to previously installed wing repairs. Each aircraft had to be approved for the mod. The wing loading that the blended winglet adds was too much for a few of the aircraft.

One of the planes actually was damaged by a contract outfit during the winglet mod. The required repairs to fix the damage took it out of the winglet program. That contract outfit did not do another winglet mod at Delta.



So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.

Not weakened; no longer suitable for the winglet program, big difference.


Not really faith-inspiring.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:56 am

Josh76040 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:


So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.

Not weakened; no longer suitable for the winglet program, big difference.


Not really faith-inspiring.


I think the TechOps teams know a bit more about materials and strength ratings than you do.
 
n515cr
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:27 am

3307 to enter SAL 1/9 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n807nw
3312 to exit SAL 1/9

IFC
3851 did a test hop today at MCI. RTS 1/8 as previously posted
 
Josh76040
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Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not weakened; no longer suitable for the winglet program, big difference.


Not really faith-inspiring.


I think the TechOps teams know a bit more about materials and strength ratings than you do.


Doesn’t mean they are infallible. We’re not talking about a worn-out carpet after all. Aviation history is rife with crashes occurring after some “expert” decided something was “within limits.”

I read that the damage to the wing weakened it to the point that it could no longer be counted on to support the weight of the winglet.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:41 pm

You are making a big deal about nothing.
The statement that was originally made an about “weakened” was a simplistic summarization of engineering analysis that determined that some parts may have some conditional limitations.

There is a lot of this in the industry, not just about on frame-specific repairs but on a myriad of original parts that maybe were found to have certain defects, material flaws, etc. there are thousands of technical ADs out there that require increased inspection, replacement, or even flight envelope restrictions.
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:27 pm

1706 on track to ferry to CAN for 76K mods
185 to exit CAN as a 76Z 1/9
181 to exit CAN as a 76K 1/9
3307/3312 on track to enter/exit SAL 1/9
175 showing ferry to SEA on 1/10 and presumably will continue on to ICN/CAN https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N175DN
175 ferrying likely means 1705 exiting mods

IFC
3036 and 3851 both back in service this morning
3037 on track to RTS tomorrow
670 RTS 1/10. This will complete IFC for active 75Ds. Expect any that exit storage to receive IFC prior to reentering service
 
audidudi
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:30 pm

3317 was operating DL1187 yesterday from SLC>OGG, and having flown all the way from SLC to west of Sacramento CA., diverted back to SLC. At first I was thinking that it might have been a recurring pressuriztion issue to have caused this, after she spent over 5 months at SLC being repaired for this issue. But she is now due to operate DL406 from SLC>ATL, so whatever caused the diversion got resolved overnight. Anyone know what happened here?
UPDATE..She now she has a 4 hour departure delay from SLC! Is she a hangar queen perhaps?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n817nw
Last edited by audidudi on Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
WN732
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Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:33 pm

audidudi wrote:
3317 was operating DL1187 yesterday from SLC>OGG, and having flown all the way from SLC to west of Sacramento CA., diverted back to SLC. At first I was thinking that it might have been a recurring pressuriztion issue to have caused this, after she spent over 5 months at SLC being repaired for this issue. But she is now operating DL406 from SLC>ATL, so whatever caused the diversion got resolved overnight. Anyone know what happened here?


Must not have been that major of an issue since it flew all the way back to SLC.
 
Lootess
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:24 pm

Yeah I always figured the PW 757s were the issue cause I never seen one.

Most of the 752s fly shorter missions nowadays, and the ones that fly SEA-KOA, LAX-OGG are likely candidates for the A321neo when they arrive, further restricting their distance.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:18 pm

audidudi wrote:
3317 was operating DL1187 yesterday from SLC>OGG, and having flown all the way from SLC to west of Sacramento CA., diverted back to SLC. At first I was thinking that it might have been a recurring pressuriztion issue to have caused this, after she spent over 5 months at SLC being repaired for this issue. But she is now due to operate DL406 from SLC>ATL, so whatever caused the diversion got resolved overnight. Anyone know what happened here?
UPDATE..She now she has a 4 hour departure delay from SLC! Is she a hangar queen perhaps?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n817nw


Just a little engine trouble. Still trying to stretch her legs out after being parked so long.
 
x1234
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:23 pm

Any updates for uprating the thrust on the A359's so DL can carry more payload? This is important for JNB-ATL west-bound and ATL-HND/ICN and PVG if it ever resumes. Remember KE Cargo is HUGE all over Asia and an important connector onto DL cargo.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3243
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:57 am

Josh76040 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:

Not really faith-inspiring.


I think the TechOps teams know a bit more about materials and strength ratings than you do.


Doesn’t mean they are infallible. We’re not talking about a worn-out carpet after all. Aviation history is rife with crashes occurring after some “expert” decided something was “within limits.”

I read that the damage to the wing weakened it to the point that it could no longer be counted on to support the weight of the winglet.

Sorry you are way off base with this statement. The repairs performed to the wings are 100% legal repairs per the Boeing Structural Repair Manual and have been approved by Delta Engineering and by Boeing Engineering. All structural repairs go through both of those teams before an aircraft can be returned to service after a major repair.

So the weight of the winglet as you call it is not the factor here. The added wing loading the winglet causes is the reason these aircraft can not be approved by Boeing to have winglets installed. Winglets add a lot of twisting force to the wings. You don't just bolt the things on. Numerous stringers under the top surface of the wing have to be modified to take up that stress. Surface skin repairs in certain areas do not allow the modifications to be made without a complete reskin of the wing. The reskin would make the return of investment for the winglet project for that airframe a net loss for the remaining life of that airframe.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:07 am

Whoever mentioned DL is using their 752s for specific missions (EG: ATL-Florida) is correct. No specific winglets are necessary. Frankly, I got no idea what UA wants to do with their existing 752s as they're generally younger, in weaker interior shape compared to DL, and used on longer missions. So whatever to both. I'm actually more upset AA fully got rid of it's 757 fleet by comparison.
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:45 am

n515cr wrote:
1706 on track to ferry to CAN for 76K mods
185 to exit CAN as a 76Z 1/9
181 to exit CAN as a 76K 1/9
3307/3312 on track to enter/exit SAL 1/9
175 showing ferry to SEA on 1/10 and presumably will continue on to ICN/CAN https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N175DN
175 ferrying likely means 1705 exiting mods

IFC
3036 and 3851 both back in service this morning
3037 on track to RTS tomorrow
670 RTS 1/10. This will complete IFC for active 75Ds. Expect any that exit storage to receive IFC prior to reentering service


181's exit canceled

IFC
3037 RTS pushed to 1/10
 
JohanTally
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:55 am

x1234 wrote:
Any updates for uprating the thrust on the A359's so DL can carry more payload? This is important for JNB-ATL west-bound and ATL-HND/ICN and PVG if it ever resumes. Remember KE Cargo is HUGE all over Asia and an important connector onto DL cargo.

Are they not already 84k if not what are they rated at?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11465
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:38 am

Is there any significance to the Lion Air 739s having the slightly-lower-thrust version of the relevant CFM56? It's 1000 ft-lbs lower takeoff thrust, but same continuous thrust. Does this make any real difference in operation/procedures, or unsuitable for particular routes or higher-altitude airports? I.e. will these be treated as a kind of subfleet, or will ops just dispatch them everywhere they send the DL-original 900ERs? Plainly there was a reason that DL ordered theirs with the engine that they did.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:45 am

wjcandee wrote:
Is there any significance to the Lion Air 739s having the slightly-lower-thrust version of the relevant CFM56? It's 1000 ft-lbs lower takeoff thrust, but same continuous thrust. Does this make any real difference in operation/procedures, or unsuitable for particular routes or higher-altitude airports? I.e. will these be treated as a kind of subfleet, or will ops just dispatch them everywhere they send the DL-original 900ERs? Plainly there was a reason that DL ordered theirs with the engine that they did.


It's really just a paper de-rate on those engines, so I'm almost certain they will update those motors during mods.
 
Lootess
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:15 pm

dfwking wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
15 A359s currently in service, 2 new deliveries coming in early 2022, and the acquired A359s to start coming into the fleet mid 2022 at rate of about 1 every other month thereafter.


Something doesn't add up here. Delta in their Sep 2021 10Q says that there are 18 in the fleet and 26 purchased (44 total):
img.PNG https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_financials/2021/q3/DAL-9.30.2021-10Q.pdf

Out of the 26, 9 are former LATAM, 2 are being delivered in 2022, anyone know when the other 15 come in?


15 in-service, 3 in-possession. Must be N570DZ-N572DZ at the time of the report.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:58 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
they don't even have regular winglets on all of their 757's, which I was kinda surprised about.

That's because some of the fleet can not have winglets installed due to previously installed wing repairs. Each aircraft had to be approved for the mod. The wing loading that the blended winglet adds was too much for a few of the aircraft.

One of the planes actually was damaged by a contract outfit during the winglet mod. The required repairs to fix the damage took it out of the winglet program. That contract outfit did not do another winglet mod at Delta.



So Delta is flying at least one elderly 757 with weakened wings. Wow.


Recall, DL's 757 is a bit of a mixed bag. N659DL (I think, SkyTeam Livery) was brought out of the fleet and from 1990-1991 and then was ushered back in. DL also transitioned the "VIP A319" to mainline and using some 757s now for the charter / NBA sub fleet which don't have winglets. Finally (and it's tough to really track this down) yes, there are a few DL 757s built in the 1990s which *don't* have winglets, but have updated interiors with AVOD & new bins and whatnot.

It's worth noting that DL is really transitioning to being a loyal Airbus customer. A lot of the 757 missions previously flown on 1980s Ex-NW 757s 10-years ago are now on brand new A321s (EG: ATL-AUS). Yet the 757s are still hanging in there for a bit which is nice. However, It wouldn't surprise me to see some sub fleet of DL 757s which could get scimitars installed on the quick. At the very least, they seem very keen on not only keeping the 757s around, but also using them for very specific missions. Hence why I'm so disappointed AA dumped them entirely (and they were mostly young, like from 2002).
 
audidudi
Posts: 3479
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:50 pm

Lootess wrote:
dfwking wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
15 A359s currently in service, 2 new deliveries coming in early 2022, and the acquired A359s to start coming into the fleet mid 2022 at rate of about 1 every other month thereafter.


Something doesn't add up here. Delta in their Sep 2021 10Q says that there are 18 in the fleet and 26 purchased (44 total):
img.PNG https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_financials/2021/q3/DAL-9.30.2021-10Q.pdf

Out of the 26, 9 are former LATAM, 2 are being delivered in 2022, anyone know when the other 15 come in?


15 in-service, 3 in-possession. Must be N570DZ-N572DZ at the time of the report.

So here are all 9 ex-LATAM frames:

MSN 024...3568...N568DZ...ex PR-XTA
MSN 027...3569...N569DZ...ex PR-XTB
MSN 048...3570...N570DZ...ex PR-XTE
MSN 064...3571...N571DZ... ex PR-XTF
MSN 200...3572...N572DZ...ex PR-XTH
MSN 250...3573...N573DZ...ex PR-XTI
MSN 265...3574...N574DZ...ex A7-AQA/PR-XTJ
MSN 282...3575...N575DZ...ex PR-XTK
MSN 313...3576...N576DZ...ex PR-XTL
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:01 pm

so by this list DAL is really only acquiring 3 280t birds 265,282 & 313
 
n515cr
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:29 pm

IFC
3037 back in service. All 321s have IFC
670 to RTS later today. This will completed active 75D IFC
3913 is the sole remaining aircraft to get IFC (for now)
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11119
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:59 pm

kavok wrote:
Going forward, say summer 2022 onward should traffic continue to slowly grow, do you see DL bringing more of the 717s back online?

And if so, I guess that leads to the bigger question of whether the 220s are indeed an eventual replacement for the 717s? Because as they are being used currently, the 220s niche seems to be long-and-thinner domestic going up against competition. Routes like SEA-AUS, SEA-IND, NYC-Texas, etc where there is significant competition from AS/AA and others. And it makes sense, as the 220 offers a mainline product with IFE and a low seat count, all while keeping costs low. Basically it allows DL to offer mainline services on routes they feel necessary to fly, but also where DL is arguably at a network competitive disadvantage (with one or both ends being a hubs/focus cities for the frequent flyers of others).


That's the way it's bifurcated, in part, because 717s simply don't have the range.

SEA-AUS 1,770sm
SEA-IND 1,866sm
NYC-Texas (let's say IAH) 1,417sm

DL's claims of range:

717, 1,510sm
A220-100, 2,415sm
A220-300, 2,415sm

A DL A220 is certainly a competitive product against an AS 737 or AA 319 or 737.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5563
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta Fleet Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DL's claims of range:

717, 1,510sm
A220-100, 2,415sm
A220-300, 2,415sm


AA, DL, UA, and AS have all operated E-175 regional jets on some nonstop routes longer than 1510 sm, including the following:
DFW-EUG on AA
SEA-MKE on DL
ORD-EUG/FAT/RNO on UA
SFO-MSN/MSP/STL on UA
PDX-AUS/DAL/MKE on AS
SEA-DAL/MKE/OKC on AS
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2951
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:49 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:

Not really faith-inspiring.


I think the TechOps teams know a bit more about materials and strength ratings than you do.


Doesn’t mean they are infallible. We’re not talking about a worn-out carpet after all. Aviation history is rife with crashes occurring after some “expert” decided something was “within limits.”

I read that the damage to the wing weakened it to the point that it could no longer be counted on to support the weight of the winglet.

Are you aware that, everyday, hundreds of airliners are talking off and flying with some systems not functioning? It's called the MEL list and allows an aircraft to fly perfectly legally and perfectly safely without being at the tip top of its condition; this is the same situation: the wing is no longer allowed to be considered for the winglet program (winglets add quite a load to the wing longeron), yet it still perfectly safe to fly.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Should Delta put scimitars on their 757s?

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:16 pm

AirKevin wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Pinto wrote:

The only real difference is the Blended Winglets have a flat top and the scimitar has a point facing backwards


According to the APB webpage, only the blended winglet is available for the 757. No mention of a scimitar for the 757.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/p ... 57_200.php

Not sure how up to date their website is, but the scimitar blended winglets do exist.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 07683.html


That pic shows the reshaped top tip of the winglet. The piece sticking down is the flap extended. bad camera angle.
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