Allegiant orders 30 737MAX7 and 20 737MAX8-200 plus 50 options

Midwestindy · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:03 pm

Potentially 50 Aircraft in the order, would be big for G4 as they are all Airbus and prefer the used market.

https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/147 ... 96452?s=20

tphuang · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:08 pm

This is truly interesting. Good for G4. The only way to get the best deal possible is to show the aircraft makers that you are willing to order their competitor.

Opus99 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:08 pm

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

TWA302 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:13 pm

Color me surprised!

I did always love their livery on the 757.

tphuang · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:13 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-carrier-allegiant-air-buy-50-boeing-737-max-jets-sources-2022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

Maybe Airbus could have won this one if their offering was a mixture of A220-300 and 500. They should think about it.

Newark727 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:14 pm

Allegiant buying new planes? Next we'll have dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

Dutchy · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:16 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-carrier-allegiant-air-buy-50-boeing-737-max-jets-sources-2022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

that would be quite surprising to me, both would represent a new fleet for them, but the A220 seems to be better suited than the 737M7, too heavy for what it is. To offset that difference in operating cost, the price must be quite low.

cbphoto · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:18 pm

There has been a fairly credible rumor going around for a while now that G4 was close on acquiring a second fleet type and that it was between the A220 and 737 Max, with the 737 having a a slight edge. It sounds like it could potentially be an order for Max 7s as well
as being the US launch customer for the Max 8200. It will be interesting to see what the split is and what future purchase options they have as well.

MrHMSH · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:22 pm

A small order but a welcome win for the MAX if it does come to fruition. Unexpected that it's the MAX 7, but a boost regardless. Their current fleet is at 121, so clearly a way short of full replacement, but given the way they've operated in the past used 738s or maybe even MAXs could be on the cards down the line. Or else going for dual fleet and only replacing A319s.

PITFlyer330 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:30 pm

maybe allegiant can do transatlantic and hawaii with these

LCK RFD PIT to KEF DUB EDI LGW

SNA to HNL OGG

RWA380 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:32 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-carrier-allegiant-air-buy-50-boeing-737-max-jets-sources-2022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

And could get G4 into the Hawaii market again with LAS & AZA & lots more. Last time G4 did HI they had old 757's, that broke down, had too many seats to fill vs a 737-7. It's really the last "Sun" market left for them. G4 has ETOPS 180 certification from the FAA , if they order the 737-7 ETOPS equipped, they could be up & running in a few months. Tha MAX 7, may allow PSP, FAT, EUG, GEG at a prifit with the realized fuel burn vs theose antiquated 757-200's they tried so hard to work with.

Revelation · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:33 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Allegiant buying new planes? Next we'll have dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

In before someone suggests MAX actually isn't a new plane... :biggrin:

sxf24 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-carrier-allegiant-air-buy-50-boeing-737-max-jets-sources-2022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

that would be quite surprising to me, both would represent a new fleet for them, but the A220 seems to be better suited than the 737M7, too heavy for what it is. To offset that difference in operating cost, the price must be quite low.

There’s a lot of potential savings in having a family of airplanes, such as MAX 7, 8, and 8200, over an orphan A220.

ikolkyo · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:34 pm

MAX 7??? This is such an odd order.

Duke91 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:41 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Allegiant buying new planes? Next we'll have dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

Makes sense if those planes are cheaper than used ones

Revelation · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
that would be quite surprising to me, both would represent a new fleet for them, but the A220 seems to be better suited than the 737M7, too heavy for what it is. To offset that difference in operating cost, the price must be quite low.

IMO all that was needed was to offer similar pricing and better availability than Airbus Canada can. Given the recent QF and KL deals and the low production rate, chances are that the queue for A220s is quite long these days. A nice kind of problem to have, but still, not ideal. The Bloomberg article talks a lot about Allegiant wanting to cash in on recent strong demand for non-business flights. Hard to do that if you can't get airplanes.

DDR · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:45 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MAX 7??? This is such an odd order.

That’s what I thought too but I guess if they cram enough seats in them it makes sense. I didn’t think there were that many Max 7s flying around.

TheSpaceCadet · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:47 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MAX 7??? This is such an odd order.

Not if they got'em at a FIRE SALE price. At least this won't be an "orphan" bird since WN has already placed a substantial order. If it's good enough for LUV why not for G4?

Duke91 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:50 pm

I wonder which one has a worse margin these days, the A220 or the max7

AndoAv8R · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:51 pm

Isnt it a little early for april fools jokes

Runway765 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:51 pm

Had to do a double take, this is certainly out of left field. I was expecting a used A321 order, not this. Must be getting a really good deal to buy new.

FATFlyer · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:53 pm

cbphoto wrote:
There has been a fairly credible rumor going around for a while now that G4 was close on acquiring a second fleet type and that it was between the A220 and 737 Max, with the 737 having a a slight edge. It sounds like it could potentially be an order for Max 7s as well
as being the US launch customer for the Max 8200. It will be interesting to see what the split is and what future purchase options they have as well.

Buying new aircraft is one of several G4 rumors floating around. We will see how true any of the others turn out to be.

BoeingGuy · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:54 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
Isnt it a little early for april fools jokes

I had an inkling of this too internally. However, I thought it was going to be 737-10s.

Opus99 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:54 pm

The max. Airlines are buying it. Is it selling like the 321NEO. Maybe not. But the fact that it’s selling nicely (for Boeing). They won’t replace it as urgently as some analysts are telling them to.

DarkSnowyNight · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:

that would be quite surprising to me, both would represent a new fleet for them, but the A220 seems to be better suited than the 737M7, too heavy for what it is. To offset that difference in operating cost, the price must be quite low.

Between the year BCA have had and the likely unwillingness of AB to use up valuable slots to price dump enough, I would say that this is almost certainly the case. There would be no value here otherwise.

As well, Allegiant also have a lower utilization than industry standard, so they can afford to take a hit on an aircraft that is significantly operationally inferior if they cost less than used 319s...

Duke91 wrote:
I wonder which one has a worse margin these days, the A220 or the max7

No way of knowing, but it is likely the M7. Contrary to a.net meme, A220 production costs are not that atrocious, and they are being brought into line and will eventually drop further still. The M7 OTOH, will never see profitability.

flyfresno · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:58 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-carrier-allegiant-air-buy-50-boeing-737-max-jets-sources-2022-01-04/

Article here.

737 max 7 seemed to have been pitted against the A220.

Max 7 was the choice.

And could get G4 into the Hawaii market again with LAS & AZA & lots more. Last time G4 did HI they had old 757's, that broke down, had too many seats to fill vs a 737-7. It's really the last "Sun" market left for them. G4 has ETOPS 180 certification from the FAA , if they order the 737-7 ETOPS equipped, they could be up & running in a few months. Tha MAX 7, may allow PSP, FAT, EUG, GEG at a prifit with the realized fuel burn vs theose antiquated 757-200's they tried so hard to work with.

Could the same be true with Orlando to those cities and others on the West Coast?

Duke91 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:59 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The max. Airlines are buying it. Is it selling like the 321NEO. Maybe not. But the fact that it’s selling nicely (for Boeing). They won’t replace it as urgently as some analysts are telling them to.

This is good news for Airbus since Boeing will not give the max up very soon, so that they can reap the cash cow A320/A321 program with their ridiculous margin.

Expect them to take even more time to announce the A225.

At this point, any orders for Boeing benefits Airbus as it keeps the status quo going.

Opus99 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:01 pm

Duke91 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The max. Airlines are buying it. Is it selling like the 321NEO. Maybe not. But the fact that it’s selling nicely (for Boeing). They won’t replace it as urgently as some analysts are telling them to.

This is good news for Airbus since Boeing will not give the max up very soon, so that they can reap the cash cow A320/A321 program with their ridiculous margin.

Expect them to take even more time to announce the A225

it doesn't mean they won't launch a new plane. it just won't replace the max family exactly

ben7x · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:01 pm

If this is true, I am really surprised why WN and G4 get very cheap prices (we know the WN planes were very cheap and the G4 must be too, or they wouldn’t order it) and FR doesn’t. I know Ryanair wants cheap prices, but I really cannot imagine Allegiant (an airline with an around 98% second-hand bought fleet) would pay much higher prices.

Revelation · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 pm

TheSpaceCadet wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MAX 7??? This is such an odd order.

Not if they got'em at a FIRE SALE price.

Not if A220 is unobtainium.

Duke91 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Duke91 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The max. Airlines are buying it. Is it selling like the 321NEO. Maybe not. But the fact that it’s selling nicely (for Boeing). They won’t replace it as urgently as some analysts are telling them to.

This is good news for Airbus since Boeing will not give the max up very soon, so that they can reap the cash cow A320/A321 program with their ridiculous margin.

Expect them to take even more time to announce the A225

it doesn't mean they won't launch a new plane. it just won't replace the max family exactly

Yeah, but the question is not if they both will launch a new plane at some point, but when. And with every new order for Boeing the status quo is maintained, which benefits Airbus at this moment.

Opus99 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:05 pm

Duke91 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Duke91 wrote:

This is good news for Airbus since Boeing will not give the max up very soon, so that they can reap the cash cow A320/A321 program with their ridiculous margin.

Expect them to take even more time to announce the A225

it doesn't mean they won't launch a new plane. it just won't replace the max family exactly

Yeah, but the question is not if they both will launch a new plane at some point, but when. And with every new order for Boeing the status quo is maintained, which benefits Airbus at this moment.

Fair enough

sxf24 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:08 pm

ben7x wrote:
If this is true, I am really surprised why WN and G4 get very cheap prices (we know the WN planes were very cheap and the G4 must be too, or they wouldn’t order it) and FR doesn’t. I know Ryanair wants cheap prices, but I really cannot imagine Allegiant (an airline with an around 98% second-hand bought fleet) would pay much higher prices.

I can guarantee the pricing between WN and FR is very similar (adjusted for model and configuration differences). Part of FR’s success is that they continuously look for cost savings and having the same price as WN is probably not good enough.

Since the quantity discussed for G4 and WN are significantly different, I would not expect the prices to be the same. G4 would have to get a good price - same as any other airline that switches.

WaywardMemphian · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:11 pm

So much for that A-Net trope about the added cost of a mixed fleet. But, if G4 is adamant about flying daily or 6 days a week on routes like MEM-LAX this is needed.

Revelation · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:16 pm

Duke91 wrote:
Yeah, but the question is not if they both will launch a new plane at some point, but when. And with every new order for Boeing the status quo is maintained, which benefits Airbus at this moment.

Seems obvious to me that new orders for MAX benefit Boeing more than they benefit Airbus, right up to the time Boeing replaces MAX in their product catalog. Since the BCA CEO just said today that isn't happening any time soon, that aspect of the status quo is not changing any time soon.

BoeingG · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:17 pm

Airlines are getting fed up with Airbus's extravagant prices. I expect to see more 320/220 cancellations in the coming years as Boeing rebounds.

NIKV69 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:17 pm

Going by what their fleet has been this is a positive.

Dutchy · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 pm

BoeingG wrote:
Airlines are getting fed up with Airbus's extravagant prices. I expect to see more 320/220 cancellations in the coming years as Boeing rebounds.

wishful thinking?

jbs2886 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:21 pm

Incredibly annoying all the preposterous comments that Boeing can only sell a MAX if it gave them away at fire sale prices. Did Allegiant get a good deal? Very likely. But giving them away? That has no basis in reality.

FLYBY72 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:22 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
So much for that A-Net trope about the added cost of a mixed fleet. But, if G4 is adamant about flying daily or 6 days a week on routes like MEM-LAX this is needed.

They won't have a mixed fleet for very long. Bet there is more to this order.

Duke91 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Incredibly annoying all the preposterous comments that Boeing can only sell a MAX if it gave them away at fire sale prices. Did Allegiant get a good deal? Very likely. But giving them away? That has no basis in reality.

I mean, if they are not making any profit out of it, it is 'giving them away', unless you actually mean giving them away as for free. No, I actually think Boeing will receive some non-negative revenue from this deal.

wjcandee · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:26 pm

This seems completely-nuts. Has Allegiant had a change of leadership recently? Does Maurice Gallagher have Alzheimer's or some other personality-altering disease? This is a complete-reversal of everything every airline he has been involved with has done. Moving to the A320 raised their reliability enormously, because of the predictive-maintenance/onboard-diagnostics stuff. Presumably, the MAX has something similar, but...seriously??? As if people weren't already worried (perhaps irrationally) about safety with Allegiant -- and they're getting the MAX?

"We digested and are running smoothly with the A320-series. So now we're going to take on a huge project to bring aboard another fleet, with all the training of the entire operation, from agents to maintenance to compliance, to FAs, to pilots." Why? That was so much fun we want to do it again? It's not like the market for used A320CEOs has dried up. Just weird.

But whatever. It's their company, and their fate.

fcogafa · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:26 pm

At least the late news has avoided all the 'this is airbuses to lose' comments

sxf24 · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:29 pm

wjcandee wrote:
This seems completely-nuts. Has Allegiant had a change of leadership recently? Does Maurice Gallagher have Alzheimer's or some other personality-altering disease? This is a complete-reversal of everything every airline he has been involved with has done. Moving to the A320 raised their reliability enormously, because of the predictive-maintenance/onboard-diagnostics stuff. Presumably, the MAX has something similar, but...seriously??? As if people weren't already worried (perhaps irrationally) about safety with Allegiant -- and they're getting the MAX?

Whatever.

The supply of viable used A320ceos with CFM engines is finite. At some point soon, G4 needed to pick a different airplane. New airplanes will certainly help reliability and this is one area where the A220 looses against the A320neo and MAX.

SEU · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:29 pm

Nobody expected G4 to order the Max 7, if they do, its a huge win for Boeing. I hope they didnt dump prices too much though.

tphuang · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
that would be quite surprising to me, both would represent a new fleet for them, but the A220 seems to be better suited than the 737M7, too heavy for what it is. To offset that difference in operating cost, the price must be quite low.

IMO all that was needed was to offer similar pricing and better availability than Airbus Canada can. Given the recent QF and KL deals and the low production rate, chances are that the queue for A220s is quite long these days. A nice kind of problem to have, but still, not ideal. The Bloomberg article talks a lot about Allegiant wanting to cash in on recent strong demand for non-business flights. Hard to do that if you can't get airplanes.

Right, even if we accept the notion that A220 is more efficient (which I think is the case), pricing and availability does matter. Have multiplier suppliers also helps with negotiation power. It doesn't seem like G4 mind having multiple fleet types.

jbmitt · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:31 pm

I liked this article from when Allegiant first ordered new Airbus aircraft.

https://skift.com/2017/05/04/for-the-fi ... -airplane/

Since they always bought secondhand, they didn’t have a team in place for new deliveries. In typical fashion, they handled things cost effectively and with some interesting solutions.

They’re good at what they do as a leisure focused travel airline. I wish them well in continued growth.

wjcandee · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:31 pm

sxf24 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
reliability...is one area where the A220 looses against the... MAX.

Except for the 2-year grounding and extraordinary continued scrutiny from regulators, public and the media, of course.

Polot · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:32 pm

wjcandee wrote:
This seems completely-nuts. Has Allegiant had a change of leadership recently? Does Maurice Gallagher have Alzheimer's or some other personality-altering disease? This is a complete-reversal of everything every airline he has been involved with has done. Moving to the A320 raised their reliability enormously, because of the predictive-maintenance/onboard-diagnostics stuff. Presumably, the MAX has something similar, but...seriously??? As if people weren't already worried (perhaps irrationally) about safety with Allegiant -- and they're getting the MAX?

"We digested and are running smoothly with the A320-series. So now we're going to take on a huge project to bring aboard another fleet, with all the training of the entire operation, from agents to maintenance to compliance, to FAs, to pilots." Why? That was so much fun we want to do it again? It's not like the market for used A320CEOs has dried up. Just weird.

But whatever. It's their company, and their fate.

1) A big factor on the better reliability with the A320s is as a whole they are much newer than the MD-80s we’re with better support.

2) The public has long moved past questioning Allegiant safety. That was in the news cycle in what, 2018? They never had a crash to cement it in people’s memory.

lightsaber · Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm

Allegiant ordering new A320CEOs was a shock. It broke their model.
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/allegia ... 0and%20CEO.

In my opinion, there are a certain number of lines (routes one airframe is assigned to fly for a day) that have enough hours; Allegiant buying new makes sense for these lines.

If a fleet is large enough, the cost of flying two types isn't bad.

This gives Allegiant high flexibility in buying used too. A win-win if true. The MAX-200 would be perfect for G4. Their ancillary revenue needs more butts in seats. A few more seats will pay the cost difference.

Lightsaber

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