Still think there is not a severe Pilot shortage coming??

As late as last year, if you took 4 1/2 years to finish your 4 year degree, you wouldn’t even get an interview at DL. DL has always been known for its stringent hiring criteria that has lasted for 50+ years, now we are seeing the first cracks in that.

From Delta Pilot Recruiting Facebook page.

“After a comprehensive review of our pilot hiring requirements, Delta has decided to make a four-year college degree “preferred” rather than “required” for first officer candidates, effective immediately.
While we feel as strongly as ever about the importance of education, there are highly qualified candidates – people who we would want to welcome to our Delta family – who have gained more than the equivalent of a college education through years of life and leadership experience. Making the four-year degree requirement preferred removes unintentional barriers to our Delta flight decks.
There are no other changes to our requirements, or to our continued commitment to hiring the world’s best pilots.
We’re excited about our future at Delta and we’re proud of the many things we are doing to make the dream of becoming a Delta pilot a reality for talented, hard-working and committed people who love this industry. “

https://www.facebook.com/deltapilotrecruiting

Unless they required a degree in aviation or some kind of science/engineering field, I'm not sure it was really that relevant. Is someone with a history or sociology degree going to be a better pilot because of it?

I mean there have been kids that become pilots before puberty hits.

planecane wrote:

Unless they required a degree in aviation or some kind of science/engineering field, I'm not sure it was really that relevant. Is someone with a history or sociology degree going to be a better pilot because of it?

I mean there have been kids that become pilots before puberty hits.

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

The real problem for DL I believe is Endeavor. The recent attrition due to The Great Retirement at DL has cost them around 1800 pilots. No pilots, no growth. PERIOD….
A good percentage of the replacements have been drawn from the regionals, that now have their own staffing issues, some severe. So why go to work at Endeavor without a degree, knowing you will never have a chance to move up to Daddy Delta? That Cheaper contractor feed is an important part of the biz plans of all three majors.

It can be impossible to complete a 4 yr. degree in 4 years if certain classes fill.

FlyingElvii wrote:

planecane wrote:

Unless they required a degree in aviation or some kind of science/engineering field, I'm not sure it was really that relevant. Is someone with a history or sociology degree going to be a better pilot because of it?

I mean there have been kids that become pilots before puberty hits.

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

planecane wrote:

Unless they required a degree in aviation or some kind of science/engineering field, I'm not sure it was really that relevant. Is someone with a history or sociology degree going to be a better pilot because of it?

I mean there have been kids that become pilots before puberty hits.

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

No, it doesn’t, but it is documented proof that you have completed a long-term, complex project while compiling large amounts of information. In today’s world of hiring by computer screener, it matters.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

No, it doesn’t, but it is documented proof that you have completed a long-term, complex project while compiling large amounts of information. In today’s world of hiring by computer screener, it matters.

That's fair. But DL hasn't said "it doesn't matter." Rather, they've said "we recognize that there are some folks who are just as qualified who lack a college degree." It'll be interesting to see how much this changes hiring patterns.

Prost wrote:

It can be impossible to complete a 4 yr. degree in 4 years if certain classes fill.

Or you end up taking classes you do not like which can affect your willingness to do work for that class
(I say as I am supposed to be reading about EIDs)

The pilot program is finally catching up with the rest of Delta hiring policies.

As a part of the diversity in hiring policy, Delta has made numerous job vacancies no longer “requiring” a 4 year degree. This change came about in late 2020 to help make Delta more “inclusive and diverse” company.


https://www.delta.com/us/en/about-delta/diversity

Specifically in my department we dropped the 4 year degree requirement for new applicants per the new policy.

I couldn't edit my earlier post but I forgot to add that he was hired by NW so was grandfathered in.

Now it’s time for the FAA to reduce ATP time for 121 FO. I can dream can’t I

There is an argument that large companies have become a little too rigid on requiring a university degree. I say this as someone with 3 university degrees. Yes, a degree does indicate a candidate has certain abilities - eg willingness and capacity to learn. And yes, somebody without a degree will need to have something impressive to make up for the lack of degree. A dual citizen who spent 5+ years flying fast jets as an officer in another (friendly) country's military would be an example of this.

However, sometimes there are job applicants without a degree who have a very very strong background and really do have what it takes to do the job. It's in the interest of DL and other airlines to be open minded and give those well qualified candidates a chance to argue their case.

johns624 wrote:

My brother (now retired) was a DL A320 CPT with just a HS education.

That suggests he wasn't a Delta hire, but instead Northwest (or maybe Western).

There's a difference between education and training.

Four year degrees can be completed in four years at the right schools. Too many people who don't value education have found their way into politics and have diminished the university system with their anti-intellectualism.

MIflyer12 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

My brother (now retired) was a DL A320 CPT with just a HS education.

That suggests he wasn't a Delta hire, but instead Northwest (or maybe Western).

There's a difference between education and training.

Four year degrees can be completed in four years at the right schools. Too many people who don't value education have found their way into politics and have diminished the university system with their anti-intellectualism.

Yes, I reposted. He was a NW hire/

FlyingElvii wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

No, it doesn’t, but it is documented proof that you have completed a long-term, complex project while compiling large amounts of information. In today’s world of hiring by computer screener, it matters.

Actually some of us in the recruiting world have moved totally past this obsolete thinking. Discipline can be largely irrelevant to completing a degree depending on the degree program and school. There is no way for software or an individual investigator to vet that for everyone. Other CV items - such as successful personal reinvention, success in management positions, clear progression of responsibility and experience, or attainment of new skills and growth, are *far* more demonstrative of discipline than simply playing follow the leader from 18-22. For example, in my experience, people who did not go to university right out of HS and had to claw their way up through work and eventually finish a degree via community college transfers often prove to be better hires over time.

This is a diversity initiative, no more, no less.

The idea that DL doesn't have a sufficiently-large pilot pool is laughable. This change is to get the "right" folks. I personally think it would be better to try to help diverse groups get over the bar, rather than lowering the bar itself, but I understand that's not a popular view. And it is harder and takes longer.

That said, I completely-agree with Aaron that there are plenty of markers beyond a mere college degree that tend to point out those who will put their shoulder to the wheel and continue their journey of learning and self-improvement. Paying one's way through any kind of program is one. There are plenty of markers for integrity, humility, the ability to work in a team and the like (or lack thereof) that jump off a resume. For many (but certainly not all) jobs, I will take a person who busted their butt to pay their way through 3 years of college and then took a low-level management position somewhere over a person whose mommy and daddy paid for their degree in (insert useless degree name here), which was really a paid vacation, and walk in the door with a highly-entitled attitude.

wjcandee wrote:

This is a diversity initiative, no more, no less.

The idea that DL doesn't have a sufficiently-large pilot pool is laughable. This change is to get the "right" folks. I personally think it would be better to try to help diverse groups get over the bar, rather than lowering the bar itself, but I understand that's not a popular view. And it is harder and takes longer.

You're correct - that approach is impractical. Never going to realistically happen in a country where public education quality and standards depend on property values.

Aaron747 wrote:

public education quality and standards depend on property values.

Well, we can agree to disagree there. There are many, many more factors involved. If that were true, Chicago and New York would have stellar public school systems. (Of course, they once did.) On Long Island, truly-mediocre school districts sit right next to stellar ones, and the property values aren't the determining factor. And I can think of one that went from well-below-average to well-above-average based almost-entirely on a couple of new Principals being hired and being backed by the school board; people actually started taking their kids out of private school to send them to the public one, which is a real compliment.

johns624 wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

This is so much BS but seems to be accepted nowadays. A degree that doesn't match with your job just shows that you wasted tens of thousands of dollars on a piece of paper that doesn't help you. My brother (now retired) was a DL A320 CPT with just a HS education. He started flying in the Army at WOFT. He ended up with 23K+ hours of flight time. About 1/3 rotary and 2/3 fixed wing. He didn't have any problem "absorbing complex data sets" or "showing a certain discipline". If you have the intelligence and inside drive, you don't need a degree.

A college degree is not a fancy trade school, it’s an education, not prep for a job. There’s a difference between education and job training.

Do AA/AS/B6/UA/WN require a college degree?

FlyingElvii wrote:

Still think there is not a severe Pilot shortage coming??

As late as last year, if you took 4 1/2 years to finish your 4 year degree, you wouldn’t even get an interview at DL. DL has always been known for its stringent hiring criteria that has lasted for 50+ years, now we are seeing the first cracks in that.

The completion timeline being 4-4.5 years was false speculation. This is akin to other rumors like: you must have a >3.0 GPA, have no more than 'xyz' failures, wear a red tie and blue suit to the interview, etc.

The truth is, the selection process uses human scoring, and they try to view the total person behind the app. They could score the education portion of your background higher or lower based on a multitude of factors. How long did it take to get your degree, and why? What was your major? What school did you attended? Did you work full-time/part-time/NA? What else was going on during this phase of life (death, birth of child, started job, flight trainig, extra curricula, etc). This stage in the process is just to see if they want to bring you to ATL for an in-person interviewThere's great candidates out there, and they don't all have identical career paths or timelines. Kudos to pilot recruiting for opening up more candidates for consideration.

wjcandee wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

public education quality and standards depend on property values.

Well, we can agree to disagree there. There are many, many more factors involved. If that were true, Chicago and New York would have stellar public school systems. (Of course, they once did.) On Long Island, truly-mediocre school districts sit right next to stellar ones, and the property values aren't the determining factor. And I can think of one that went from well-below-average to well-above-average based almost-entirely on a couple of new Principals being hired and being backed by the school board; people actually started taking their kids out of private school to send them to the public one, which is a real compliment.

My statement was a bit broad, but I think you caught the overall spirit. Let me fix the nuance level - the quality can depend on both property values and highly variable administrative competence. Similar to the topic of this thread, having an Ed.D or M.Ed are definitely *not* guarantees of quality job performance.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

A college degree completed on time shows a certain discipline, and an ability to absorb complex data sets.

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

No, it doesn’t, but it is documented proof that you have completed a long-term, complex project while compiling large amounts of information. In today’s world of hiring by computer screener, it matters.

That's nonsense. Millions of people are coming out of college dumber than rocks because it's been reduced to something anybody can do.

capejet wrote:

Do AA/AS/B6/UA/WN require a college degree?

I can only speak to UA, and yes we do have a degree requirement. There have been instances, albeit very few, that someone has been hired without a degree but they had stellar resumes with lots of leadership experience (think military).

Obviously one can become a pilot without getting a degree, but it was one additional way for the legacy airlines to weed people out. With tens of thousands of applicants with thousands of hours apiece, there has to be some way to sort though that and requiring a degree was/is one way certain airlines chose to do it.

Personally, when I graduated high school I knew I wanted to fly for the airlines and one day to hopefully end up at my legacy of choice. To do so I knew I needed a college degree, so I got one. I've been lucky enough to succeed in that endeavor so to me the degree was well worth it. Times are certainly different now, but I enjoyed my time in college and feel that it made me a better, more well rounded person. It is certainly going to be an interesting next few years, regardless!

capejet wrote:

Do AA/AS/B6/UA/WN require a college degree?

WN had a rep at The 99's convention in Dayton in 2019 and they were about to lower the degree requirement from Bachelor to Associate.

Nomadd wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

Right. But that doesn't mean the inverse is true. No college degree doesn't necessarily mean undisciplined or unintelligent.

No, it doesn’t, but it is documented proof that you have completed a long-term, complex project while compiling large amounts of information. In today’s world of hiring by computer screener, it matters.

That's nonsense. Millions of people are coming out of college dumber than rocks because it's been reduced to something anybody can do.

Many are coming out of college considerably poorer, I haven’t seen it mentioned yet that the cost of a four year degree has tripled in the last 20 years. At least a couple of generations were told they had to go to college to do anything other than “flip burgers” and now that they’re adults in the workforce, they’ve realized that they really didn’t need to be paying off student loans into their 40’s to be able to do the jobs they do.

The cost in the U.S. either has to be brought under control, or the number of jobs that have degree requirements is going to get winnowed down only to those where it’s absolutely necessary.

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college

capejet wrote:

Do AA/AS/B6/UA/WN require a college degree?

AS does not, it’s listed as “preferred.”

WkndWanderer wrote:

The cost in the U.S. either has to be brought under control, or the number of jobs that have degree requirements is going to get winnowed down only to those where it’s absolutely necessary.

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college

Yes tuition has risen, but the cost on an inflation adjusted basis to educate a student in higher education hasn’t moved much, what has happened is states do not support their public schools as they did for Baby Boomers and Generation X.

Cactusjuba wrote:

What else was going on during this phase of life (death, birth of child, started job, flight trainig, extra curricula, etc).

It is not legal for an employer to ask about personal issues such as a death in the family or birth of a child in an interview. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but putting it in a written rubric wouldn’t happen.

You can be a great pilot and only have gone to college for 3 years and not have a degree. I think if you have a Liberal Arts degree it doesn’t necessarily make you a great pilot. Good for DL and I am sure more airlines will follow suit very quickly…..

Nobody I know finished their degree in the time that was scheduled by the universíty and yet they all have great careers and are excellent engineers. None of my employers ever asked why I took more time. Personally, I would much rather work with someone who has lots of experience than someone who optimized their college courses just to get that degree as quickly as possible.
Granted, it's a lot easier for HR to compare two numbers instead of checking whether someone is actually fit for the job.

That said, it's odd that US majors even require a college degree. Most of the ab-initio programs in the EU or Asia require nothing but a high school degree equivalent and a minimum age of 18 years.

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

Scope clause keeps pilot wages high...

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Regional airlines are the problem for wages which were created by the majors. If the airlines could get away with it they would contract out all domestic flying to the lowest bidder and score the employees. All flying should be done by mainline.

NLINK wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Regional airlines are the problem for wages which were created by the majors. If the airlines could get away with it they would contract out all domestic flying to the lowest bidder and score the employees. All flying should be done by mainline.

True, which is why there are scope clauses, so mainlines can’t out-source flying and getting around the union contract. Scope used to simple, “all flying done by Airline D will be flown by pilots on Airline D’s seniority list”; period, full stop. There existed side letters allowing for small commuters—BE99; piston twins, and the like. It was good as ALPA didn’t want to undermine mainline flying by having those planes flown by their list pilots. Then regional jets arrived at DL via ComAir. ALPA MEC there didn’t want these new creatures flown by their mainline guys. It was ego, plain and simple. Once the camel’s nose was in the tent along with JV and code sharing, Section 1 became a battleground issue.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Note the huge difference between US and Canadian pay, especially at the regionals.

FlyingElvii wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Note the huge difference between US and Canadian pay, especially at the regionals.

Yes, it’s an immense gap, true in aviation even outside the airlines. Corporate pilots in the US earn double Canadians. I know new hires in the US exceeding captain pay north of the border. But, they have higher taxes going for them in Canada.

NLINK wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Maybe if airlines pay their pilot more fairly, we won't be in this sticky situation. The Scope clause is one of the results of airlines trying to low ball pilots and FAs.

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Regional airlines are the problem for wages which were created by the majors. If the airlines could get away with it they would contract out all domestic flying to the lowest bidder and score the employees. All flying should be done by mainline.

Exactly… The stark differences shown is clear.
The regional guys are flying 600-750 hrs a year for $100g’s, (a HUGE improvement over just ten years ago) while the mainline pilots are flying 200-450 hrs for $200-400g’s.

DL’s Pilot cost per block hour flown was $1239 in 2019, 2.6 times their 2007 cost. Just sayin’.

FlyingElvii wrote:

NLINK wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If you want a better idea of how pilots are so poorly paid, take a look at this thread over at APC

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Scope clause is not airlines, it’s a union position taken to protect the work of its members.

Regional airlines are the problem for wages which were created by the majors. If the airlines could get away with it they would contract out all domestic flying to the lowest bidder and score the employees. All flying should be done by mainline.

Exactly… The stark differences shown is clear.
The regional guys are flying 600-750 hrs a year for $100g’s, (a HUGE improvement over just ten years ago) while the mainline pilots are flying 200-450 hrs for $200-400g’s.

One is the reason for the other. Regional pilots are willing to accept those wages in the hope of huge payoff later in their careers, until the 2008-2018 decade hit with Age 65, economic stagnation, etc.

FlyingElvii wrote:

The regional guys are flying 600-750 hrs a year for $100g’s, (a HUGE improvement over just ten years ago) while the mainline pilots are flying 200-450 hrs for $200-400g’s.

I believe those hours are exceptionally low due to Covid.

Truth for pax carriers, but the cargo pilots are raking in big bucks flying. At least one FDX captain is rumored to have grossed over $1 million

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Truth for pax carriers, but the cargo pilots are raking in big bucks flying. At least one FDX captain is rumored to have grossed over $1 million

And atlas will higher you right out of a turboprop. Then UPS/FedEx will higher you after you have heavy jet time. This is the way

kavok wrote:

So does the college degree requirement still remain in effect for someone sitting in the left chair of the cockpit? As in, once enough seniority is earned, can someone sitting in the right chair move over without a degree, or is that person forever “maxed out” in the right seat unless at some point they get their 4 year degree?

Nope, once on the job, there’s no requirement to finish the degree—again seniority is everything. There’s no difference from a GED pilot to a PhD or a J.D. when they’re on the list.

Some here don't seem to understand that captains and FOs can be equals in flying ability, it's just that some don't want the responsibility of being the captain.

Some of the best QOL and pay are being an international FO, likely having plenty of seniority to be a captain.

The 'four year degree' is a simplification meaning a BA or BS diploma normally obtained in 4-5 years. Doesn't mean consecutive. I started college in in 1964 and finally got my degree in 1972. That included 3 years in the US Army enlisted time. After graduating, I became a pilot in the USAF for 17 years, retired and was accepted to 3 major airlines including Delta.