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readytotaxi
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CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:16 am

Starting next week, there are likely to be no commercial flights bound for the country as Beijing tries to keep coronavirus infections out ahead of the 2022 Winter Olympics.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/14/busi ... index.html

A Delta flight turned around midair after a rule change in December.
 
classicjets
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:15 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:59 am

Though the ban is to impact both Chinese and American airlines during the last week of January/early February, SCMP reported that Airlines for America was very unhappy with the policy and attempting to find a solution with the Chinese regulators.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united- ... oronavirus

News from within WeChat groups of passengers attempting to fly from the US to China indicates that those who were originally scheduled to take Delta flights DL283 and DL287 to Shanghai from Detroit and Seattle respectively on 20th, 24th, 27th, and 31st January have been rebooked onto flights numbered DL8797 on the same dates and routes and that Delta customer service has advised that DL8797 will indeed carry passengers on these dates.

Source (Chinese) from WeChat microblog which advises those who were rebooked to proceed and attempt to travel on these dates: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/v2qYJmv6I4r3CPWIvxTtbw
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am

this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(
 
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c933103
Posts: 6443
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:55 am

classicjets wrote:
Though the ban is to impact both Chinese and American airlines during the last week of January/early February, SCMP reported that Airlines for America was very unhappy with the policy and attempting to find a solution with the Chinese regulators.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united- ... oronavirus

News from within WeChat groups of passengers attempting to fly from the US to China indicates that those who were originally scheduled to take Delta flights DL283 and DL287 to Shanghai from Detroit and Seattle respectively on 20th, 24th, 27th, and 31st January have been rebooked onto flights numbered DL8797 on the same dates and routes and that Delta customer service has advised that DL8797 will indeed carry passengers on these dates.

Source (Chinese) from WeChat microblog which advises those who were rebooked to proceed and attempt to travel on these dates: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/v2qYJmv6I4r3CPWIvxTtbw

The article claim Delta starting to notify the passenger such change from January 14 is too late for passengers traveling on the first affected flight on January 20, as China currently require everyone travelling from US to China, including vaccinated, to conduct multiple PCR test, with the first one supposed to be conducted exactly 7 days before their travel, and that passengers should start self-quarantining at departuring city in this 7 days period, which mean from January 13 for those travelers.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 700
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:58 am

IrishAyes wrote:
this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(


It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?
 
Yossarian22
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:25 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:53 pm

Vicenza wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(


It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


It is actually passengers who pay the price. My wife and I lived and worked in China for nearly a decade. We left China in autumn of 2020. Managing things like an expiring lease, an expiring visa, an end of employment and salary, and time sensitive pet paperwork was a nearly unworkable nightmare when we honestly didn’t know if the single flight a week to our next destination would be cancelled until the inbound flight was on the ground, and knowing if our flight was cancelled it could be weeks until we were rebooked. I had a friend who had taken an internal domestic flight to CAN and found out after she arrived in CAN that her flight was cancelled, the inbound flight was turned around a few hours after departure because a 5th passenger from the week before tested positive.

Due to the strong quarantine restrictions the vast majority of passengers on an international flight to/from China is most likely:
A. Returning home after living abroad,
B. Moving overseas.

A last minute weeks long delay is devastating and could cost someone thousands of dollars in lost wages and temporary housing costs.

This policy is theater that most likely hurts overseas Chinese the most. The quarantines should limit the damage.
 
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STT757
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:25 pm

If they’re so worried about Covid cancel the Olympics.
 
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zeke
Posts: 17196
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:26 pm

Vicenza wrote:

It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


The restrictions vary by airport, this is not China imposing uniform restrictions at a national level, this is being done at an airport level.
 
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scbriml
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:34 pm

STT757 wrote:
If they’re so worried about Covid cancel the Olympics.


$$$$$$ :lol:
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5367
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:47 pm

STT757 wrote:
If they’re so worried about Covid cancel the Olympics.


It wouldn't be surprising if flights between the US and China are temporarily suspended altogether. While this likely wouldn't have much impact on the movement of people (business demand is all but dried up to and from), it will have serious repercussions for trade, and can and would further exacerbate the supply chain issues. As to the Olympic Games, doubtful China would cancel them, but good luck trying to maintain a zero covid policy with the influx of athletes, reporters, etc...

Should the Olympics be cancelled? Probably. Not because China is hosting them but because they're frankly, irrelevant in the current times we live in, an environmental nightmare, a waste of money, and quite frankly, pointless.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:58 pm

Is China shutting down flights from all countries or just the USA?
 
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STT757
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:04 pm

scbriml wrote:
STT757 wrote:
If they’re so worried about Covid cancel the Olympics.


$$$$$$ :lol:


Just wait to see how they treat the athletes.
 
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JannEejit
Posts: 1980
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:10 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Is China shutting down flights from all countries or just the USA?


Yeah a bit pointless If just one country is banned.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:18 pm

The idiocy of a zero Covid policy knows no bounds.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:29 pm

They should cancel the olympics.

No way to run it with a zero covid policy.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 730
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:30 pm

You really begin to wonder when, if ever, China will reopen to international travel
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4079
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:49 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(


It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


It is actually passengers who pay the price. My wife and I lived and worked in China for nearly a decade. We left China in autumn of 2020. Managing things like an expiring lease, an expiring visa, an end of employment and salary, and time sensitive pet paperwork was a nearly unworkable nightmare when we honestly didn’t know if the single flight a week to our next destination would be cancelled until the inbound flight was on the ground, and knowing if our flight was cancelled it could be weeks until we were rebooked. I had a friend who had taken an internal domestic flight to CAN and found out after she arrived in CAN that her flight was cancelled, the inbound flight was turned around a few hours after departure because a 5th passenger from the week before tested positive.

Due to the strong quarantine restrictions the vast majority of passengers on an international flight to/from China is most likely:
A. Returning home after living abroad,
B. Moving overseas.

A last minute weeks long delay is devastating and could cost someone thousands of dollars in lost wages and temporary housing costs.

This policy is theater that most likely hurts overseas Chinese the most. The quarantines should limit the damage.


And lots of this is know on the web. So if you choose to go to another country & do not do your research about traveling issues. Then you are choosing to risk that price.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4351
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:03 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(


It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


It is actually passengers who pay the price. My wife and I lived and worked in China for nearly a decade. We left China in autumn of 2020. Managing things like an expiring lease, an expiring visa, an end of employment and salary, and time sensitive pet paperwork was a nearly unworkable nightmare when we honestly didn’t know if the single flight a week to our next destination would be cancelled until the inbound flight was on the ground, and knowing if our flight was cancelled it could be weeks until we were rebooked. I had a friend who had taken an internal domestic flight to CAN and found out after she arrived in CAN that her flight was cancelled, the inbound flight was turned around a few hours after departure because a 5th passenger from the week before tested positive.

Due to the strong quarantine restrictions the vast majority of passengers on an international flight to/from China is most likely:
A. Returning home after living abroad,
B. Moving overseas.

A last minute weeks long delay is devastating and could cost someone thousands of dollars in lost wages and temporary housing costs.

This policy is theater that most likely hurts overseas Chinese the most. The quarantines should limit the damage.

Sorry to hear about all these problems. I know expats who left their dog in China… :-(

One could think that China is happy to get rid of all these expats…
 
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lightsaber
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:13 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
The idiocy of a zero Covid policy knows no bounds.

With such full hospitals and having to call around to find anything for my 80 year old mom with covid19 right now, it actually doesn't seem like that bad a policy.

The USA now has over 150,000 with coronavirus in the hospital vs. a prior peak of 133,000.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations

Considering the test positivity rate in the USA is so high, we don't know what is happening.
(38.89% as I type this). Whenever the rate breaks 10%, that means sick people must wait in line for tests. Have you tried to get a home test lately? I challenge you to go out and buy one.
I was wise enough to buy a bunch early, but I've since used them and I need more. It is my opinion the US case rate is stalling due to testing unavailable, not any reduction in the virus.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

So a policy to inhibit the spread makes some sense if you think about how burnt out our doctors and nurses are.
My favorite coronavirus dashboard, because I have a relative working there and I get more than the numbers shows 48 coronavirus patients with a capacity for 40... Rhoo Rhoo.
That means in "judgement call" cases to hospitalize someone in the ER or get them a bed, they cannot get a bed.

https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/
Now, this will be a hassle for China as I see no reason Omicron is going away; it will linger for months until the next variant displaces it.

So this is a harsh hit on aviation and other aspects of the tourist industry.
It is also really interesting for business travel to/from China, but others posted already on that.

Lightsaber
 
bravotango75
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:37 pm

STT757 wrote:
If they’re so worried about Covid cancel the Olympics.

Bingo, spot on!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:46 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The idiocy of a zero Covid policy knows no bounds.

With such full hospitals and having to call around to find anything for my 80 year old mom with covid19 right now, it actually doesn't seem like that bad a policy.

The USA now has over 150,000 with coronavirus in the hospital vs. a prior peak of 133,000.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations

Considering the test positivity rate in the USA is so high, we don't know what is happening.
(38.89% as I type this). Whenever the rate breaks 10%, that means sick people must wait in line for tests. Have you tried to get a home test lately? I challenge you to go out and buy one.
I was wise enough to buy a bunch early, but I've since used them and I need more. It is my opinion the US case rate is stalling due to testing unavailable, not any reduction in the virus.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

So a policy to inhibit the spread makes some sense if you think about how burnt out our doctors and nurses are.
My favorite coronavirus dashboard, because I have a relative working there and I get more than the numbers shows 48 coronavirus patients with a capacity for 40... Rhoo Rhoo.
That means in "judgement call" cases to hospitalize someone in the ER or get them a bed, they cannot get a bed.

https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/
Now, this will be a hassle for China as I see no reason Omicron is going away; it will linger for months until the next variant displaces it.

So this is a harsh hit on aviation and other aspects of the tourist industry.
It is also really interesting for business travel to/from China, but others posted already on that.

Lightsaber


Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3556
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:49 pm

Some terrible takes in this thread so far, I cannot fault China for being aggressive on their COVID policies.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:51 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
You really begin to wonder when, if ever, China will reopen to international travel


I think there will be a gradual opening of China. First they probably open their borders to nearby countries and at a layer stage (I predict 2025 and beyond) there will be again normal flights between Europe/US and China. From the Chinese perspective there is little incentive to open up to the world, as China is not reliant on busimess travel, and I think the CCP is not unhappy to get rid of foreign expats and businesses. And most the people of many Asian societies seem to prefer/accept Zero Covid as number 1 strategy (still glad I don't live there though).
 
Yossarian22
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:25 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:00 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


It is actually passengers who pay the price. My wife and I lived and worked in China for nearly a decade. We left China in autumn of 2020. Managing things like an expiring lease, an expiring visa, an end of employment and salary, and time sensitive pet paperwork was a nearly unworkable nightmare when we honestly didn’t know if the single flight a week to our next destination would be cancelled until the inbound flight was on the ground, and knowing if our flight was cancelled it could be weeks until we were rebooked. I had a friend who had taken an internal domestic flight to CAN and found out after she arrived in CAN that her flight was cancelled, the inbound flight was turned around a few hours after departure because a 5th passenger from the week before tested positive.

Due to the strong quarantine restrictions the vast majority of passengers on an international flight to/from China is most likely:
A. Returning home after living abroad,
B. Moving overseas.

A last minute weeks long delay is devastating and could cost someone thousands of dollars in lost wages and temporary housing costs.

This policy is theater that most likely hurts overseas Chinese the most. The quarantines should limit the damage.


And lots of this is know on the web. So if you choose to go to another country & do not do your research about traveling issues. Then you are choosing to risk that price.


Are you saying my wife and I should have just remained in China indefinitely until China loosened their travel restrictions?
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23927
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Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The idiocy of a zero Covid policy knows no bounds.

With such full hospitals and having to call around to find anything for my 80 year old mom with covid19 right now, it actually doesn't seem like that bad a policy.

The USA now has over 150,000 with coronavirus in the hospital vs. a prior peak of 133,000.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations

Considering the test positivity rate in the USA is so high, we don't know what is happening.
(38.89% as I type this). Whenever the rate breaks 10%, that means sick people must wait in line for tests. Have you tried to get a home test lately? I challenge you to go out and buy one.
I was wise enough to buy a bunch early, but I've since used them and I need more. It is my opinion the US case rate is stalling due to testing unavailable, not any reduction in the virus.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

So a policy to inhibit the spread makes some sense if you think about how burnt out our doctors and nurses are.
My favorite coronavirus dashboard, because I have a relative working there and I get more than the numbers shows 48 coronavirus patients with a capacity for 40... Rhoo Rhoo.
That means in "judgement call" cases to hospitalize someone in the ER or get them a bed, they cannot get a bed.

https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/
Now, this will be a hassle for China as I see no reason Omicron is going away; it will linger for months until the next variant displaces it.

So this is a harsh hit on aviation and other aspects of the tourist industry.
It is also really interesting for business travel to/from China, but others posted already on that.

Lightsaber


Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.

The issue with a hospital is hospital borne transmission. If someone is there, they don't need another infection. One must isolate surgery, cardiac, cancer, kidney, and maternal patients from everyone who has coronavirus due to the consequences. That is a huge amount of labor. e.g., where I live is thinking about legislating a temporary stop to elective surgeries:
https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2022/01 ... vid-surges


China will have the time to develop a more effective vaccine or buy it from others. We're in the wave where those with other issues are being displaced from medical services due to out of control Omicron. I'm sorry, but between my bestfriend's mom who has cancer and the majority of the hospitalized with coronavirus who had options to mitigate the impact, I think they must dedicate hospitals for clean patients. I recently had "elective surgery" to help with coronavirus long haul symptoms (100% success). I'm very glad I had the surgery between waves. I couldn't now. I hope my best friend's mom is ok from the prior operation as it is very risky to have another.

The knock on effect has been too much.

As an aviation fan, I would like to open up again. However, with China's extreme testing, they might not have everyone get it. They might avoid the long haul symptoms. I have friends who know the remainder of their doctor carriers could be treating long haul symptoms as there are so many people with such bad symptoms from the various coronaviruses that they have a carrier. While Omicron is milder on the lungs, I haven't found any evidence it is milder on the other long haul symptoms.

Lightsaber
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2077
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:24 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
this whole nonsense and gray (great?) firewall of china is getting out of hand. worrisome and problematic and aviation is unfairly paying the price for the diplomatic spats and opacity. never did anyone imagine that AA and CZ (or CX, for that matter) being in a partnership would be considered a, “heyday” for US-China-SAR partnerships :(


It may well be nonsense to you, but the fact remains that China (and any other country) has the right to impose restrictions on flights as it sees fit to stop and/or restrict Covid. The US done it when they chose to, so why are other countries wrong in doing it?


It is actually passengers who pay the price. My wife and I lived and worked in China for nearly a decade. We left China in autumn of 2020. Managing things like an expiring lease, an expiring visa, an end of employment and salary, and time sensitive pet paperwork was a nearly unworkable nightmare when we honestly didn’t know if the single flight a week to our next destination would be cancelled until the inbound flight was on the ground, and knowing if our flight was cancelled it could be weeks until we were rebooked. I had a friend who had taken an internal domestic flight to CAN and found out after she arrived in CAN that her flight was cancelled, the inbound flight was turned around a few hours after departure because a 5th passenger from the week before tested positive.

Due to the strong quarantine restrictions the vast majority of passengers on an international flight to/from China is most likely:
A. Returning home after living abroad,
B. Moving overseas.

A last minute weeks long delay is devastating and could cost someone thousands of dollars in lost wages and temporary housing costs.

This policy is theater that most likely hurts overseas Chinese the most. The quarantines should limit the damage.

So….
Do like everyone else fleeing Wuhan to their money in America was doing when this all began to get around the restrictions. Fly to Mexico City or Havana, then catch a flight to the US. China shut down, but still allowed people from Wuhan to leave the country. Interesting, eh?
While
 
kalvado
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:25 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The idiocy of a zero Covid policy knows no bounds.

With such full hospitals and having to call around to find anything for my 80 year old mom with covid19 right now, it actually doesn't seem like that bad a policy.

The USA now has over 150,000 with coronavirus in the hospital vs. a prior peak of 133,000.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations

Considering the test positivity rate in the USA is so high, we don't know what is happening.
(38.89% as I type this). Whenever the rate breaks 10%, that means sick people must wait in line for tests. Have you tried to get a home test lately? I challenge you to go out and buy one.
I was wise enough to buy a bunch early, but I've since used them and I need more. It is my opinion the US case rate is stalling due to testing unavailable, not any reduction in the virus.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

So a policy to inhibit the spread makes some sense if you think about how burnt out our doctors and nurses are.
My favorite coronavirus dashboard, because I have a relative working there and I get more than the numbers shows 48 coronavirus patients with a capacity for 40... Rhoo Rhoo.
That means in "judgement call" cases to hospitalize someone in the ER or get them a bed, they cannot get a bed.

https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/
Now, this will be a hassle for China as I see no reason Omicron is going away; it will linger for months until the next variant displaces it.

So this is a harsh hit on aviation and other aspects of the tourist industry.
It is also really interesting for business travel to/from China, but others posted already on that.

Lightsaber


Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.

Let's put it so- so far, isolation policy resulted in much lower exposure to harsher strains. So it actually worked. Waiting until omicron mildens in United Petri Dishes of America is a reasonable idea as well.
How it affects aviation is another story. Probably not much after 2 years of the mess
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
With such full hospitals and having to call around to find anything for my 80 year old mom with covid19 right now, it actually doesn't seem like that bad a policy.

The USA now has over 150,000 with coronavirus in the hospital vs. a prior peak of 133,000.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations

Considering the test positivity rate in the USA is so high, we don't know what is happening.
(38.89% as I type this). Whenever the rate breaks 10%, that means sick people must wait in line for tests. Have you tried to get a home test lately? I challenge you to go out and buy one.
I was wise enough to buy a bunch early, but I've since used them and I need more. It is my opinion the US case rate is stalling due to testing unavailable, not any reduction in the virus.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

So a policy to inhibit the spread makes some sense if you think about how burnt out our doctors and nurses are.
My favorite coronavirus dashboard, because I have a relative working there and I get more than the numbers shows 48 coronavirus patients with a capacity for 40... Rhoo Rhoo.
That means in "judgement call" cases to hospitalize someone in the ER or get them a bed, they cannot get a bed.

https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/
Now, this will be a hassle for China as I see no reason Omicron is going away; it will linger for months until the next variant displaces it.

So this is a harsh hit on aviation and other aspects of the tourist industry.
It is also really interesting for business travel to/from China, but others posted already on that.

Lightsaber


Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.

The issue with a hospital is hospital borne transmission. If someone is there, they don't need another infection. One must isolate surgery, cardiac, cancer, kidney, and maternal patients from everyone who has coronavirus due to the consequences. That is a huge amount of labor. e.g., where I live is thinking about legislating a temporary stop to elective surgeries:
https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2022/01 ... vid-surges


China will have the time to develop a more effective vaccine or buy it from others. We're in the wave where those with other issues are being displaced from medical services due to out of control Omicron. I'm sorry, but between my bestfriend's mom who has cancer and the majority of the hospitalized with coronavirus who had options to mitigate the impact, I think they must dedicate hospitals for clean patients. I recently had "elective surgery" to help with coronavirus long haul symptoms (100% success). I'm very glad I had the surgery between waves. I couldn't now. I hope my best friend's mom is ok from the prior operation as it is very risky to have another.

The knock on effect has been too much.

As an aviation fan, I would like to open up again. However, with China's extreme testing, they might not have everyone get it. They might avoid the long haul symptoms. I have friends who know the remainder of their doctor carriers could be treating long haul symptoms as there are so many people with such bad symptoms from the various coronaviruses that they have a carrier. While Omicron is milder on the lungs, I haven't found any evidence it is milder on the other long haul symptoms.

Lightsaber


The idea that a country can isolate out of a pandemic isnt a valid one. To be clear, Im not opposed to mask and vaccine mandates. Those mitigation efforts help when a person is inevitably exposed. Im also completely fine with hospitals prioritizing vaccinated patients or people who couldnt get vaccinated for health reasons.

Im sorry about your mother and her friend and your long term symptoms. Im a two time cancer survivor and I did get Covid in December 2020. While I was only sick for 3 days, I had foggy headaches for the better part of two months that really made life hard. But that was a different time. There was no vaccine then and I was totally fine with the idea of isolating when there was no vaccine. I feel for the truly immunocompromised, but those who end up in the hospital or dead because they refused the vaccine, oh well.

But now two things are completely different.

1) We have a vaccine that works very well to keep people out of the hospital.

2) We have a variant that every single person on earth is going to be exposed to because its literally that contagious.

The way China keeps its zero Covid policy is by imprisoning people in their own homes by force. Thats something I would never want to see here regardless of buying time.

There isnt any evidence on long Covid with Omicron yet because its too new. That said we know for a fact that it is a milder illness, period. The data clearly shows that. This is not the same fight we had in 2020-2021, its completely new.
 
User avatar
volauvent
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 4:41 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:55 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Some terrible takes in this thread so far, I cannot fault China for being aggressive on their COVID policies.


They locked 13 million people in their homes with barely enough food to survive and they wouldn't let people attend hospitals unless they had a fresh Covid test...
How many people will suffer heart attacks, strokes or any number of medical emergencies requiring urgent hospital care on any given day in a city of 13 Million? How many of them had a Covid test in time?
The reality of what happens during these inhumane lockdowns will likely never be known thanks to the extreme government censorship.
The few people who dared report and complain about the harsh conditions were swiftly silenced and persecuted by the government...
A doctor is even facing punishment because he dared help a patient without a test outside of a Covid ward to save his life.

China is only able to maintain 0 covid through ridiculously harsh restrictions on its population which would never be anywhere near acceptable nor enforceable outside of an oppressive dictatorship.
People who idealize China's 0 covid have little understanding of the sacrifices the population has to make for it, and that's before considering the futility of trying to enforce this indefinitely which only leads to a never ending downwards spiral of ever stricter constraints in the face of a contagious endemic disease which will circulate among humankind for a long time to come.

Given the population's general obedience and propensity to wearing masks and following vaccination mandates and public health guidelines, and in the light of a now less severe disease, I suspect that China would be able to implement a strategy of gradual opening up and allowing progressive exposure and immunity buildup rather successfully and with a lot less drama than in Europe or North America, but they don't seem willing to even do this.
 
majano
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:56 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.

The issue with a hospital is hospital borne transmission. If someone is there, they don't need another infection. One must isolate surgery, cardiac, cancer, kidney, and maternal patients from everyone who has coronavirus due to the consequences. That is a huge amount of labor. e.g., where I live is thinking about legislating a temporary stop to elective surgeries:
https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2022/01 ... vid-surges


China will have the time to develop a more effective vaccine or buy it from others. We're in the wave where those with other issues are being displaced from medical services due to out of control Omicron. I'm sorry, but between my bestfriend's mom who has cancer and the majority of the hospitalized with coronavirus who had options to mitigate the impact, I think they must dedicate hospitals for clean patients. I recently had "elective surgery" to help with coronavirus long haul symptoms (100% success). I'm very glad I had the surgery between waves. I couldn't now. I hope my best friend's mom is ok from the prior operation as it is very risky to have another.

The knock on effect has been too much.

As an aviation fan, I would like to open up again. However, with China's extreme testing, they might not have everyone get it. They might avoid the long haul symptoms. I have friends who know the remainder of their doctor carriers could be treating long haul symptoms as there are so many people with such bad symptoms from the various coronaviruses that they have a carrier. While Omicron is milder on the lungs, I haven't found any evidence it is milder on the other long haul symptoms.

Lightsaber


The idea that a country can isolate out of a pandemic isnt a valid one. To be clear, Im not opposed to mask and vaccine mandates. Those mitigation efforts help when a person is inevitably exposed. Im also completely fine with hospitals prioritizing vaccinated patients or people who couldnt get vaccinated for health reasons.

Im sorry about your mother and her friend and your long term symptoms. Im a two time cancer survivor and I did get Covid in December 2020. While I was only sick for 3 days, I had foggy headaches for the better part of two months that really made life hard. But that was a different time. There was no vaccine then and I was totally fine with the idea of isolating when there was no vaccine. I feel for the truly immunocompromised, but those who end up in the hospital or dead because they refused the vaccine, oh well.

But now two things are completely different.

1) We have a vaccine that works very well to keep people out of the hospital.

2) We have a variant that every single person on earth is going to be exposed to because its literally that contagious.

The way China keeps its zero Covid policy is by imprisoning people in their own homes by force. Thats something I would never want to see here regardless of buying time.

There isnt any evidence on long Covid with Omicron yet because its too new. That said we know for a fact that it is a milder illness, period. The data clearly shows that. This is not the same fight we had in 2020-2021, its completely new.

Leave Lightsabrer alone. The Covid-19 pandemic has illustrated very clearly that there isn't a right and wrong response. Countries have adopted different approaches and others have changed their approach from time to time. At different stages, people in countries other than China have been locked down.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:59 pm

majano wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The issue with a hospital is hospital borne transmission. If someone is there, they don't need another infection. One must isolate surgery, cardiac, cancer, kidney, and maternal patients from everyone who has coronavirus due to the consequences. That is a huge amount of labor. e.g., where I live is thinking about legislating a temporary stop to elective surgeries:
https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2022/01 ... vid-surges


China will have the time to develop a more effective vaccine or buy it from others. We're in the wave where those with other issues are being displaced from medical services due to out of control Omicron. I'm sorry, but between my bestfriend's mom who has cancer and the majority of the hospitalized with coronavirus who had options to mitigate the impact, I think they must dedicate hospitals for clean patients. I recently had "elective surgery" to help with coronavirus long haul symptoms (100% success). I'm very glad I had the surgery between waves. I couldn't now. I hope my best friend's mom is ok from the prior operation as it is very risky to have another.

The knock on effect has been too much.

As an aviation fan, I would like to open up again. However, with China's extreme testing, they might not have everyone get it. They might avoid the long haul symptoms. I have friends who know the remainder of their doctor carriers could be treating long haul symptoms as there are so many people with such bad symptoms from the various coronaviruses that they have a carrier. While Omicron is milder on the lungs, I haven't found any evidence it is milder on the other long haul symptoms.

Lightsaber


The idea that a country can isolate out of a pandemic isnt a valid one. To be clear, Im not opposed to mask and vaccine mandates. Those mitigation efforts help when a person is inevitably exposed. Im also completely fine with hospitals prioritizing vaccinated patients or people who couldnt get vaccinated for health reasons.

Im sorry about your mother and her friend and your long term symptoms. Im a two time cancer survivor and I did get Covid in December 2020. While I was only sick for 3 days, I had foggy headaches for the better part of two months that really made life hard. But that was a different time. There was no vaccine then and I was totally fine with the idea of isolating when there was no vaccine. I feel for the truly immunocompromised, but those who end up in the hospital or dead because they refused the vaccine, oh well.

But now two things are completely different.

1) We have a vaccine that works very well to keep people out of the hospital.

2) We have a variant that every single person on earth is going to be exposed to because its literally that contagious.

The way China keeps its zero Covid policy is by imprisoning people in their own homes by force. Thats something I would never want to see here regardless of buying time.

There isnt any evidence on long Covid with Omicron yet because its too new. That said we know for a fact that it is a milder illness, period. The data clearly shows that. This is not the same fight we had in 2020-2021, its completely new.

Leave Lightsabrer alone. The Covid-19 pandemic has illustrated very clearly that there isn't a right and wrong response. Countries have adopted different approaches and others have changed their approach from time to time. At different stages, people in countries other than China have been locked down.


I in no way attacked Lightsaber nor was I disrespectful towards him. We’re dialoguing about different ideas.
 
Tack
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:20 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Its not that the idea that not having Covid would be good, but its simply not possible.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron with no exception. There is no way around it. The idea that we can keep people from getting exposed to it is not realistic. What China is doing is delaying the inevitable through authoritarianism. They have control of their borders so they can do as they like but the idea they can keep their populace from being exposed to Omicron is idiotic.

As for at home tests, there are some at the CVS near my house. I picked some up yesterday.

Its important to keep a few things in perspective.

1) This is not the same Hospitalization issue we once had. Shortages of beds and people flooding ICUs are not the issue. Its rather a staffing issue and a reporting issue. According to Dr. Wallensky at the CDC, up to 40% of Covid hospitalizations are incidental. That means they could go in with a broken leg and find out they have Covid (as an example).

https://khn.org/news/article/incidental ... shortages/

2) We know for sure that Omicron is significantly more mild. This is data from Cal Berkley and the CDC:

Clinical Outcomes Among Patients Infected With Omicron

Omicron
Sample Size of Verified Omicron: 52,297
Number of people who went to ER with verified Omicron: 235
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 88
Average Length of Hospital Stay: 3.4 days
Admitted to ICU: 7
Ventilated: 0
Deaths: 1

Delta
Sample Size of Verified Delta: 16,982
Number of people who went to ER with verified Delta: 222
Number of people actually admitted to Hospital: 189
Average Length of Stay: 6.2 days
Admitted to ICU: 23
Ventilated: 11
Deaths: 14

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

3) The unvaccinated are the ones clogging up hospitalization when its required.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/nyc-hospi ... 1-in-1000/

4) Its pretty well agreed that everyone will get exposed to Omicron

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... hony-fauci

So that is why zero Covid is an idiotic policy. Im not talking about mitigation efforts and those policies, Im talking about the idea that a country can avoid Omicron completely. Its not happening.

The issue with a hospital is hospital borne transmission. If someone is there, they don't need another infection. One must isolate surgery, cardiac, cancer, kidney, and maternal patients from everyone who has coronavirus due to the consequences. That is a huge amount of labor. e.g., where I live is thinking about legislating a temporary stop to elective surgeries:
https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2022/01 ... vid-surges


China will have the time to develop a more effective vaccine or buy it from others. We're in the wave where those with other issues are being displaced from medical services due to out of control Omicron. I'm sorry, but between my bestfriend's mom who has cancer and the majority of the hospitalized with coronavirus who had options to mitigate the impact, I think they must dedicate hospitals for clean patients. I recently had "elective surgery" to help with coronavirus long haul symptoms (100% success). I'm very glad I had the surgery between waves. I couldn't now. I hope my best friend's mom is ok from the prior operation as it is very risky to have another.

The knock on effect has been too much.

As an aviation fan, I would like to open up again. However, with China's extreme testing, they might not have everyone get it. They might avoid the long haul symptoms. I have friends who know the remainder of their doctor carriers could be treating long haul symptoms as there are so many people with such bad symptoms from the various coronaviruses that they have a carrier. While Omicron is milder on the lungs, I haven't found any evidence it is milder on the other long haul symptoms.

Lightsaber


The idea that a country can isolate out of a pandemic isnt a valid one. To be clear, Im not opposed to mask and vaccine mandates. Those mitigation efforts help when a person is inevitably exposed. Im also completely fine with hospitals prioritizing vaccinated patients or people who couldnt get vaccinated for health reasons.

Im sorry about your mother and her friend and your long term symptoms. Im a two time cancer survivor and I did get Covid in December 2020. While I was only sick for 3 days, I had foggy headaches for the better part of two months that really made life hard. But that was a different time. There was no vaccine then and I was totally fine with the idea of isolating when there was no vaccine. I feel for the truly immunocompromised, but those who end up in the hospital or dead because they refused the vaccine, oh well.

But now two things are completely different.

1) We have a vaccine that works very well to keep people out of the hospital.

2) We have a variant that every single person on earth is going to be exposed to because its literally that contagious.

The way China keeps its zero Covid policy is by imprisoning people in their own homes by force. Thats something I would never want to see here regardless of buying time.

There isnt any evidence on long Covid with Omicron yet because its too new. That said we know for a fact that it is a milder illness, period. The data clearly shows that. This is not the same fight we had in 2020-2021, its completely new.


LAXDude, two of the smartest posts I’ve read yet.
 
majano
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:26 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
majano wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

The idea that a country can isolate out of a pandemic isnt a valid one. To be clear, Im not opposed to mask and vaccine mandates. Those mitigation efforts help when a person is inevitably exposed. Im also completely fine with hospitals prioritizing vaccinated patients or people who couldnt get vaccinated for health reasons.

Im sorry about your mother and her friend and your long term symptoms. Im a two time cancer survivor and I did get Covid in December 2020. While I was only sick for 3 days, I had foggy headaches for the better part of two months that really made life hard. But that was a different time. There was no vaccine then and I was totally fine with the idea of isolating when there was no vaccine. I feel for the truly immunocompromised, but those who end up in the hospital or dead because they refused the vaccine, oh well.

But now two things are completely different.

1) We have a vaccine that works very well to keep people out of the hospital.

2) We have a variant that every single person on earth is going to be exposed to because its literally that contagious.

The way China keeps its zero Covid policy is by imprisoning people in their own homes by force. Thats something I would never want to see here regardless of buying time.

There isnt any evidence on long Covid with Omicron yet because its too new. That said we know for a fact that it is a milder illness, period. The data clearly shows that. This is not the same fight we had in 2020-2021, its completely new.

Leave Lightsabrer alone. The Covid-19 pandemic has illustrated very clearly that there isn't a right and wrong response. Countries have adopted different approaches and others have changed their approach from time to time. At different stages, people in countries other than China have been locked down.


I in no way attacked Lightsaber nor was I disrespectful towards him. We’re dialoguing about different ideas.

Maybe so, but dismissing the views around long term effects of Omicron just because it is a new variant sounded off for me. Not to drag this away from aviation any further and my apology.
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:39 pm

Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3828
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:44 pm

oh Chinese government, if only you had some sort of intelligence. Seriously, these people in Beijing are stupid.
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:58 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).


Are you suggesting that only doctors and geographers should be part of this discussion?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:32 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).


So it’s better to keep people stupid and uneducated?
 
toga998
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:09 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:32 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).

Can’t shut it down if a.net’s own is involved in off-topic discussion. Oh the irony of this site.
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:34 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).


So it’s better to keep people stupid and uneducated?


Go ahead tell me what your qualifications are…
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:37 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
Mods shutting this down in 3 2 1…

(And rightfully so. I see no proof of epidemiological qualifications or geographical qualifications. The internet was a mistake in giving people data and a sense of hubris in statistics).


So it’s better to keep people stupid and uneducated?


Go ahead tell me what your qualifications are…


I don’t answer to you, but I’ll say that unless you’re an epidemiologist or virologist, as good if not better than yours.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:05 pm

At this point Chinese aviation won't go back to normal until after the summer probably.
 
iluvairplanes99
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:10 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:05 pm

I would ask folks to check their anti Chinese bias; it’s so easy to write off their response as heavy handed, the fact of the matter is China isn’t having upwards of 800,000 cases a day. Other countries have implemented strict lockdowns, Vietnam, Netherlands, Taiwan, Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand albeit all have different techniques. I for one would prefer a method that prioritizes peoples health and well being rather than sacrificing people for the “economy.” I.e. protecting corporate profits. The reality is we are in an unprecedented pandemic, it’s going to be inconvenient and require sacrifice to keep everyone safe, no matter your ideology. This has just made clear what different nations priorities are, and in my opinion in the US that is not the people. It’s the corporations. The longer it takes to vaccinate the world instead of hoarding for profit, the less effective vaccines become as the virus has greater opportunity to mutate. I cannot blame nations that want to prevent a tidal wave of sick people straining their healthcare systems. You can still fall deeply ill even if you have been vaccinated, the risks greatly lowered but still remains possibility. The American strategy of status quo is quite disappointing, and I’m confused by folks takes, just because the virus is highly contagious doesn’t mean we should just let rip through us all at once. That makes zero sense to me? And yet, here we are in the midst of the consequence of that strategy. Maybe I’m misunderstanding some takes, but alas… to each their own I guess.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:22 pm

iluvairplanes99 wrote:
I would ask folks to check their anti Chinese bias; it’s so easy to write off their response as heavy handed, the fact of the matter is China isn’t having upwards of 800,000 cases a day. Other countries have implemented strict lockdowns, Vietnam, Netherlands, Taiwan, Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand albeit all have different techniques. I for one would prefer a method that prioritizes peoples health and well being rather than sacrificing people for the “economy.” I.e. protecting corporate profits. The reality is we are in an unprecedented pandemic, it’s going to be inconvenient and require sacrifice to keep everyone safe, no matter your ideology. This has just made clear what different nations priorities are, and in my opinion in the US that is not the people. It’s the corporations. The longer it takes to vaccinate the world instead of hoarding for profit, the less effective vaccines become as the virus has greater opportunity to mutate. I cannot blame nations that want to prevent a tidal wave of sick people straining their healthcare systems. You can still fall deeply ill even if you have been vaccinated, the risks greatly lowered but still remains possibility. The American strategy of status quo is quite disappointing, and I’m confused by folks takes, just because the virus is highly contagious doesn’t mean we should just let rip through us all at once. That makes zero sense to me? And yet, here we are in the midst of the consequence of that strategy. Maybe I’m misunderstanding some takes, but alas… to each their own I guess.


I would say three things in regards to this response.

1) We are criticizing China's zero Covid policy because its completely unrealistic. That is not anti-China anymore than you are being anti-US. It is right to criticize policies you find objectionable so long as you can back your argument (ideally with stats and data).

2) It is not just about corporations. That is a huge simplification. We have to think about what happens when you shut a place down. The people who run corporations are wealth enough. The people who get hurt are the workers who can no longer earn a living. It spirals downwards to the point people cant pay bills, get evicted, etc. There is also a huge psychological impact on isolating people. I have had 4 friends attempt suicide for that reason during the pandemic. One was successful. Its a similar argument for shutting down schools. If the kids are at home and the parents have to teach them, they cant go to work and the process above repeats.

3) There is no "keeping everyone safe". Thats not how life works. Its a series of risks day in and out. Thats true even outside the pandemic.
 
User avatar
9MMPQ
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:24 pm

I guess CNN needed to pull in some extra clicks & mentioned the Olympic Winter games in one breath as the general Chinese policy to start denying flights from countries if too many infected passengers have arrived in a given timeframe. CX out of HKG to other countries was already hit earlier, as was also mentioned in the ongoing CX thread about it's latest troubles & the measures taken in HKG.

I guess the proper title of this thread should be ''China possibly banning scheduled U.S. flights over numbers of arriving infected passengers'' ? Time will tell, China is already difficult enough as it is.
 
User avatar
admanager
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:28 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:36 pm

How are US athletes getting to China for the Olympics? Specially approved charters?
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:36 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

So it’s better to keep people stupid and uneducated?


Go ahead tell me what your qualifications are…


I don’t answer to you, but I’ll say that unless you’re an epidemiologist or virologist, as good if not better than yours.



Yes but I know my opinion is not perfect unlike people like you
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6192
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:48 pm

9MMPQ wrote:
I guess CNN needed to pull in some extra clicks & mentioned the Olympic Winter games in one breath as the general Chinese policy to start denying flights from countries if too many infected passengers have arrived in a given timeframe. CX out of HKG to other countries was already hit earlier, as was also mentioned in the ongoing CX thread about it's latest troubles & the measures taken in HKG.

I guess the proper title of this thread should be ''China possibly banning scheduled U.S. flights over numbers of arriving infected passengers'' ? Time will tell, China is already difficult enough as it is.

It’s totally reasonable to think about an Olympic Games that starts in 3 weeks to a country that just banned flights to it. How is it not reasonable?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6804
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:50 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:

Go ahead tell me what your qualifications are…


I don’t answer to you, but I’ll say that unless you’re an epidemiologist or virologist, as good if not better than yours.



Yes but I know my opinion is not perfect unlike people like you


That doesnt even make sense. Were offering opinions and I use data to show why I believe what I do. Never did I say Im perfect.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:06 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

I don’t answer to you, but I’ll say that unless you’re an epidemiologist or virologist, as good if not better than yours.



Yes but I know my opinion is not perfect unlike people like you


That doesnt even make sense. Were offering opinions and I use data to show why I believe what I do. Never did I say Im perfect.

And data shows an uncontained runaway of covid cases in US, and death rate is starting to pick up.... Looks like mortality will beat last winter's wave...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15224
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: CNN reporting all flights from the United States to China have either been canceled or suspended

Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:08 pm

iluvairplanes99 wrote:
I would ask folks to check their anti Chinese bias; it’s so easy to write off their response as heavy handed, the fact of the matter is China isn’t having upwards of 800,000 cases a day. Other countries have implemented strict lockdowns, Vietnam, Netherlands, Taiwan, Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand albeit all have different techniques. I for one would prefer a method that prioritizes peoples health and well being rather than sacrificing people for the “economy.” I.e. protecting corporate profits. The reality is we are in an unprecedented pandemic, it’s going to be inconvenient and require sacrifice to keep everyone safe, no matter your ideology. This has just made clear what different nations priorities are, and in my opinion in the US that is not the people. It’s the corporations. The longer it takes to vaccinate the world instead of hoarding for profit, the less effective vaccines become as the virus has greater opportunity to mutate. I cannot blame nations that want to prevent a tidal wave of sick people straining their healthcare systems. You can still fall deeply ill even if you have been vaccinated, the risks greatly lowered but still remains possibility. The American strategy of status quo is quite disappointing, and I’m confused by folks takes, just because the virus is highly contagious doesn’t mean we should just let rip through us all at once. That makes zero sense to me? And yet, here we are in the midst of the consequence of that strategy. Maybe I’m misunderstanding some takes, but alas… to each their own I guess.

China isn’t REPORTING 800,000 because they haven’t been upfront about anything for 2+ years, so why start now? Closing down cities and ports for a handful of cases doesn’t happen if everything is under control.

The Chinese government has been guilty of underreporting “cases” just as much as the USA has been guilty of over reporting them. Which is why there is so little trust in any of this.

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