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JayinKitsap
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Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:06 am

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — The board of China Airlines (CAL) on Thursday (Jan. 27) approved the purchase of four Boeing 777F cargo planes for a total of NT$39.18 billion (US$1.4 billion) to be delivered beginning in 2023.

The latest order follows the airline's best performance for its freight division in its 62-year history last year. CAL has already ordered six 777 Freighter aircraft, with three already delivered, two scheduled to arrive this year, and the last one expected in 2023, the Liberty Times reported.


https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4423824

This is the only mention I have seen on this, appears to have happened as the US was asleep.

Congratulations to Boeing
 
CX747
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:30 pm

Congratulations to Boeing and China Airlines. The 777 just goes from strength to strength.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:22 pm

We moderators have noticed an increase in A. vs. B posting. Its not cute nor funny to put our flamebait comments that derail threads. Please post on topic. This is your warning.
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:03 pm

so continuing on from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1469353, are these to fill the gap left by the retirement of a few 744Fs which must start leaving by 2024, will we see more orders for a few 777Fs at a time till all 18 744F are replaced, are CI just waiting to put in an order for dozen + to 18 A350Fs or wait for the 777XF??
IMHO the main order for replacing their 744Fs is likely to go to the A350F.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:07 pm

trex8 wrote:
so continuing on from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1469353, are these to fill the gap left by the retirement of a few 744Fs which must start leaving by 2024, will we see more orders for a few 777Fs at a time till all 18 744F are replaced, are CI just waiting to put in an order for dozen + to 18 A350Fs or wait for the 777XF??
IMHO the main order for replacing their 744Fs is likely to go to the A350F.


Expansion. Per the PR: "by leveraging its existing all-Boeing fleet of (18) 747-400 Freighters and (3) 777 Freighters. With (3) 777 Freighters already on order, China Airlines' 777 Freighter is the perfect complement to the airline's existing 747-400 Freighter fleet, seamlessly accommodating the 3-meter (10-foot) tall pallets and maximizing flexibility for its air cargo operations." Is it confirmed the Fs must start leaving by 2024? One could imagine CI is looking to get a law change/exemption for cargo birds.
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:17 pm

Boeing announcement
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-01-27 ... Freighters

All delivered by 2024
https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/chi ... 83.article
China Airlines has placed an order for four additional Boeing 777 freighters, with deliveries slated to begin from 2023.

The announcement will take the total number of 777Fs in the Taiwanese carrier’s fleet to 10 examples by 2024.
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:21 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Is it confirmed the Fs must start leaving by 2024? One could imagine CI is looking to get a law change/exemption for cargo birds.


well theyre moving forward the 744F retirements, not trying to extend them, whether due to the ROC CAA regulations or theyre just getting too expensive to operate and not wanting to do another heavy check is the zillion $ question.

https://docs.publicnow.com/viewDoc?hash ... EC0DF6C60B


1.Date of board of directors resolution:2022/01/12
2.Nature of the change:Changes in accounting estimates.
3.Reason for the change:Due to the changes of fleet plan, since 2022/01/01,
the lifespan of 14 B747-400F and 3 A330-300 aircrafts will be changed.
The service life of B747-400F aircraft will be changed from 25 years to 24
years; the service life of A330-300 aircraft will be changed from 20 years
to 18 years.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:44 pm

trex8 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Is it confirmed the Fs must start leaving by 2024? One could imagine CI is looking to get a law change/exemption for cargo birds.


well theyre moving forward the 744F retirements, not trying to extend them, whether due to the ROC CAA regulations or theyre just getting too expensive to operate and not wanting to do another heavy check is the zillion $ question.

https://docs.publicnow.com/viewDoc?hash ... EC0DF6C60B


1.Date of board of directors resolution:2022/01/12
2.Nature of the change:Changes in accounting estimates.
3.Reason for the change:Due to the changes of fleet plan, since 2022/01/01,
the lifespan of 14 B747-400F and 3 A330-300 aircrafts will be changed.
The service life of B747-400F aircraft will be changed from 25 years to 24
years; the service life of A330-300 aircraft will be changed from 20 years
to 18 years.


Interesting, but these 4 new 777Fs don't appear to be replacements (per language I posted above).
 
oschkosch
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:00 pm

anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk
 
jbs2886
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:03 pm

oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk


Because it hasn't been launched....I do anticipate that those will come, but BA isn't announcing the 777XF for a small China Airlines order (although it could be a part of a larger announcement).
 
TC957
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:06 pm

Do they still have stored 744F's in Marana ? Why not reactivate them if cargo is booming so much ?
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:10 pm

TC957 wrote:
Do they still have stored 744F's in Marana ? Why not reactivate them if cargo is booming so much ?

2 still stored, last year there were some reports they may fly again, one of the 3 stored since the GFC was reactivated and leased to ASL in 2019.
they certainly should have enough engines available from their stored pax 744s!
 
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Scoreboard
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:32 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk


Because it hasn't been launched....I do anticipate that those will come, but BA isn't announcing the 777XF for a small China Airlines order (although it could be a part of a larger announcement).


Maybe not officially launched, but it is on offer - from the Boeing Investors call
Also, we are currently offering the freighter version of our 777X airplane to customers.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/boeing- ... transcript
 
jbs2886
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:47 pm

Scoreboard wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk


Because it hasn't been launched....I do anticipate that those will come, but BA isn't announcing the 777XF for a small China Airlines order (although it could be a part of a larger announcement).


Maybe not officially launched, but it is on offer - from the Boeing Investors call
Also, we are currently offering the freighter version of our 777X airplane to customers.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/boeing- ... transcript


100% correct, but I don't think you'll see BA announce the 777XF with a small China Airlines order only. I don't know what China Airlines is going to replace 744Fs with, because I would think they'd hold off an order announcement for a 777F top up to do at the same time as a 777XF order, if they were to do one; so that leads me to think that its not coming...I would love to be wrong!
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:02 pm

oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk

Simply because you don't order 4 large freighters overnight. Decision making process, business case, even for a top up order takes longer than a few days. CI also needs to replace some 744F at short notice.

For the 777XF, ATO was given fairly recently, and for new types of aircraft it takes even longer to negotiate with all kinds of new specs, prices etc. Doesn't make sense for just a few options. I guess CI could start an RFP for A350F/777XF soon after official launch of the 777XF.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm

oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf -


They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt
 
a2b7
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:44 pm

trex8 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Do they still have stored 744F's in Marana ? Why not reactivate them if cargo is booming so much ?

2 still stored, last year there were some reports they may fly again, one of the 3 stored since the GFC was reactivated and leased to ASL in 2019.
they certainly should have enough engines available from their stored pax 744s!

It looks like at least one of the two that were still in storage at VCV will fly again: planespotters.net shows that B-18703 was ferried to MZJ earlier this month, and is due for Air Atlanta Icelandic. Maybe it went to MZJ for maintenance.
 
TC957
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:47 pm

Thanks. I just would have thought having two of your own ( presume CI Cargo still do own the stored 744's ) reactivated would be cheaper and in service quicker than ordering new 777F's.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:03 pm

bikerthai wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf -


They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though
 
jbs2886
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:42 pm

JohanTally wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf -


They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


While others agree, I believe we would see an earlier EIS because I don't think Boeing needs 2 years more than Airbus (yes, I know the A350 models are already certified and no 777X model is). But, to be honest, I was kind of surprised the A350F was going to take until 2025.
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:26 am

oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk

I think its the uncertainty as to timing, specs which led some already like SQ to the A350F. And SQ are a 777X customer. And its not like the remaining 744Fs used by SQ are that old, all delivered 2000-2006 just like the CI fleet. There must have been a compelling reason for SQ to opt for ordering 7 A350F now and not wait a few years for the 777XF when they have 31 777-9s ordered! Like Goh probably realized Boeing have no clue at the end of 2021 what the specs were going to be or when it would EIS with a reasonable expectation that date would occur.
Unless the likes of Fedex or UPS wants lots of 777XFs in the mid decade (which they probably dont- maybe by end decade or later), I don't see Boeing needing to "rush" it into service before they can squeeze every $ out of every 777F they can deliver before 2028.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:45 am

jbs2886 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


While others agree, I believe we would see an earlier EIS because I don't think Boeing needs 2 years more than Airbus (yes, I know the A350 models are already certified and no 777X model is). But, to be honest, I was kind of surprised the A350F was going to take until 2025.

I guess a blue chip customer ordering 30 firm and 20 options asking for earlier delivery would obviously get Boeing motivated. At this point though the first passenger 779 flight won't be operating until 2023 possibly even 2024 therefore I would say 2026 would be the earliest. But staying on topic China Airlines wants these planes in the next 2 years and they ordered the only new build heavy lifter available.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:48 am

jbs2886 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


While others agree, I believe we would see an earlier EIS because I don't think Boeing needs 2 years more than Airbus (yes, I know the A350 models are already certified and no 777X model is). But, to be honest, I was kind of surprised the A350F was going to take until 2025.

You still have to get the cargo door and all the fire suppression systems approved and certified. Plus whatever other notifications you’d need to the floor and structure
 
JohanTally
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:52 am

32andBelow wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


While others agree, I believe we would see an earlier EIS because I don't think Boeing needs 2 years more than Airbus (yes, I know the A350 models are already certified and no 777X model is). But, to be honest, I was kind of surprised the A350F was going to take until 2025.

You still have to get the cargo door and all the fire suppression systems approved and certified. Plus whatever other notifications you’d need to the floor and structure

Also we're discussing an aircraft in 2022 that doesn't have a firm design.
 
ben7x
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:37 pm

trex8 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf - at least as additional options? Wouldn't that be more logical, inspite of uncertainty when it will be certified/delivered?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G781B mit Tapatalk

I think its the uncertainty as to timing, specs which led some already like SQ to the A350F. And SQ are a 777X customer. And its not like the remaining 744Fs used by SQ are that old, all delivered 2000-2006 just like the CI fleet. There must have been a compelling reason for SQ to opt for ordering 7 A350F now and not wait a few years for the 777XF when they have 31 777-9s ordered! Like Goh probably realized Boeing have no clue at the end of 2021 what the specs were going to be or when it would EIS with a reasonable expectation that date would occur.
Unless the likes of Fedex or UPS wants lots of 777XFs in the mid decade (which they probably dont- maybe by end decade or later), I don't see Boeing needing to "rush" it into service before they can squeeze every $ out of every 777F they can deliver before 2028.


Maybe SQ just ordered the A350F because they could convert A320/321neo orders which they didn’t want anymore? (And it’s a fact that SQ converted A320 fam to A350F.) But who knows…

But I also don’t think that Boeing will rush with 777XF EIS as long as they can deliver 777F. Unlike Airbus who will probably speed up the A350F program because they have no freighter which they can deliver until A350F EIS.
So I expect some kind of clean transition between 777F and XF. And end of production is still 5-6 years away, so currently no need to rush.
Last edited by ben7x on Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ben7x
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:39 pm

JohanTally wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
anyone know why they didn't order the 777xf -


They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


Why should they phase out brand new 777F in 2027? I‘m sure you meant end of production?
 
JohanTally
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:16 pm

ben7x wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

They will get all 4 of their 777F by end of 2024.

Boeing may not have the first 777XF ready for testing by 2024. We'll have to wait for their announcement to see the time line.

bt

The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though


Why should they phase out brand new 777F in 2027? I‘m sure you meant end of production?

Yes production, obviously Boeing will phase out production of the 777F when transitioning to the new emission compliant 777XF. I'm referring to the manufacturer not the airlines that will operate the 777F for many decades.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:34 pm

I wonder if this order could be cancelled due to the ongoing heating up of relations of Taiwan with the PRC ?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:24 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I wonder if this order could be cancelled due to the ongoing heating up of relations of Taiwan with the PRC ?


Why? Boeing have navigated these water before. There doesn't seem to be any peep from China in terms of objection to this sale.

bt
 
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Revelation
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:43 pm

JohanTally wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
The 777XF is likely looking for an EIS around the time that the 777F is phased out in 2027 due to emission requirements. Obviously speculation though

While others agree, I believe we would see an earlier EIS because I don't think Boeing needs 2 years more than Airbus (yes, I know the A350 models are already certified and no 777X model is). But, to be honest, I was kind of surprised the A350F was going to take until 2025.

I guess a blue chip customer ordering 30 firm and 20 options asking for earlier delivery would obviously get Boeing motivated.

I can't think of a major customer in the wide body freighter market who would order 30+20 in that earlier time frame. I doubt either A and B sees that either, since Reuters reports they are developing their plans for new freighters after consulting with major market players. I think it would take a new entrant with major financing and huge risk tolerance to emerge to make such an earlier order.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:44 pm

Motivation is not the issue. Current thinking at Boeing is to get the product into the customer's hands quickly before they change their minds.

Practical matters dictate the pace though.

They need to hire more Engineers. I've heard that the labor market for Engineers is tight.

They need to train the Engineers, both veterans and new hire to the new digital engineering and manufacturing process.

They will need to design the new hardware. Even with the new design process, I don't see them taking less than a year to complete the structural part of the design.

And then the manufacturing, flight test and cert. With digital manufacturing, they may be able to reduce the flow, but if this is the first time they try it on large fuselage components, then there will surely be growing pains.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:42 pm

If the question is whether China Airline will get these frames in time, the only hick-up I see is that Boeing has started hiring lots of people back. With many line workers and Engineers being new to the company, I can see quality issue creeping back up again.

Recall all the previous times Boeing had hiring binge?

bt
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:25 pm

bikerthai wrote:
If the question is whether China Airline will get these frames in time, the only hick-up I see is that Boeing has started hiring lots of people back. With many line workers and Engineers being new to the company, I can see quality issue creeping back up again.

Recall all the previous times Boeing had hiring binge?

bt

One would hope the presently ordered 777Fs (3 outstanding and the 4 new) shouldn't be an issue in terms of delivery by 2024 as the reports state. Though the 4th one from the 2019 batch of 6 was supposed to be delivered by end last year, whether its a Boeing delay or CI one I dunno. Per the 777 production thread this 4th one is on the FAL. BR announced last summer it managed to move up deliverys of its 777Fs ordered Sept 2020 to all delivered 2021. (Hah now it would be funny if CI gave up a slot for BR!).
If the 777XF comes on after 777F/77W production ends 2027 I cant see Boeing still having issues with staffing by then. Or if they still are they're really in deep s....
 
trex8
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Re: Taiwan's China Airlines springs for 4 777F freighters

Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:39 am

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