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SaintBroseph
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Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:03 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/qatar-a ... SKBN2K11CS

Interesting article. One pilot even fell asleep during an approach to Doha with like 400 passengers on board. No one feels safe filing fatigue reports either. QCAA is silent on the matter too. Thoughts?
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Clickbait title
 
flybyguy
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:25 pm

Unless people stop lining up to be recruited, the alleged abuses will continue. EK IIRC also had a spate of highly publicized incidents regarding errors by crews. I presume the Gulf carriers have a fire-first, ask questions later approach… inducing a culture of fear rather than transparency. Again, no amount of regulation will improve conditions until folks decline to be recruited by Gulf carriers with these issues.
 
LDRA
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:10 pm

In a more serious note, the technology for drowsyness detection via offline camera already exists. Maybe a good safety feature to add for next gen airliners?
 
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par13del
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:10 pm

So no one thinks this has anything to do with the public spat going on with released videos and a court case?
My tin foil hat just thinks coincidence is not common, issues with how the Gulf carriers operates and treats crews is well known, so what is different now, we just had an a/c take-off and not climb. If my memory is accurate, pilots were dismissed.
 
dynamo12
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:32 pm

I thought that was an Emirates flight - they blamed it on an error with the autopilot or flight director I think.

This is somewhat common in the middle east, I keep on reading of autopilot malfunctions etc. Iran had some as well. Ie, TCAS alert after auto-pilot malfunction.

My worry is that the crews are perhaps not fully trained / alert / engaged and/or rely too much on the automation. For example, how does a flight director malfunction prevent a climb after takeoff?

That said, I absolutely believe some of these crew are flying fatigued. Makes you wonder if single pilot flying (ie, full autopilot ops) will eventually actually be SAFER (ie, the computer doesn't get tired).
 
J343
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:40 pm

I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff. As per post #2, unless people stop lining to be recruited then the alleged abuses will continue. Everything about QR and EK is so superficial with no way of truly knowing what’s inside the working conditions. Unless of course you’re of a certain race then you get better treatment. This is the case I found in Dubai. I have flown with both QR and EK and frankly it’s not worth all the hype and since then, after learning about how they treat their staff, I vowed to never fly them ever again.


Just my two cents.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:41 pm

dynamo12 wrote:
I thought that was an Emirates flight - they blamed it on an error with the autopilot or flight director I think.

This is somewhat common in the middle east, I keep on reading of autopilot malfunctions etc. Iran had some as well. Ie, TCAS alert after auto-pilot malfunction.

My worry is that the crews are perhaps not fully trained / alert / engaged and/or rely too much on the automation. For example, how does a flight director malfunction prevent a climb after takeoff?

That said, I absolutely believe some of these crew are flying fatigued. Makes you wonder if single pilot flying (ie, full autopilot ops) will eventually actually be SAFER (ie, the computer doesn't get tired).


yep, good analysis on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23fiDj8Uy6Q
 
Chemist
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:21 pm

If they're as bad on safety as anecdotes indicate, it's only a matter of time before a major accident occurs.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:51 pm

It's very easy for people to say to not work for a certain airline. But when you have little options to get to the major you want, or you have been furloughed and trying to not lose recency of flying (which is a big deal), you'll go with who's hiring.

I doubt a lot of pilots actually want to go to EK or QR, but it's a means to an end, and often one of the only options.
 
EKgoi
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:00 pm

par13del wrote:
So no one thinks this has anything to do with the public spat going on with released videos and a court case?
My tin foil hat just thinks coincidence is not common, issues with how the Gulf carriers operates and treats crews is well known, so what is different now, we just had an a/c take-off and not climb. If my memory is accurate, pilots were dismissed.


Your memory maybe accurate, but mistaken. Those EK colleagues weren't dismissed and still have their jobs. Don't believe all the bs spewed by some members here.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:14 pm

Don't they get most their crew from poorer countries desperate for work? These people are not going to speak up, its up to countries with actual standards to ban them from their airspace until they allow international inspectors to oversee crew safety.
 
Opus99
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:15 pm

Isn’t this similar to what happens to carriers in the gulf in general?
 
bigb
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:01 am

From what my colleagues who were former EK and QR pilots. This isn’t surprising…
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:52 am

par13del wrote:
So no one thinks this has anything to do with the public spat going on with released videos and a court case?
My tin foil hat just thinks coincidence is not common, issues with how the Gulf carriers operates and treats crews is well known, so what is different now, we just had an a/c take-off and not climb. If my memory is accurate, pilots were dismissed.


Except that was EK. QR has been sued in the US and elsewhere for their efforts to force service providers and owners of online message boards to reveal identities of pilots posting about internal matters there.

The old adage holds true: draconian measures are not necessary with employees if transparency and open communication are practiced regularly.
 
SaintBroseph
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:20 am

LDRA wrote:
In a more serious note, the technology for drowsyness detection via offline camera already exists. Maybe a good safety feature to add for next gen airliners?


That sounds good in theory but such technology is only going to make Qatar micromanage and scrutinize its pilots even more. I distinctly remember around 2 years ago Qatar was using the FDM to force pilots to taxi with a single-engine.
 
seat1a
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:22 am

A friend in the industry recently told me the safest carrier of the ME3 is Etihad. Then Qatar and Emirates a distance second and third. Any validity to this?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:28 am

LDRA wrote:
In a more serious note, the technology for drowsyness detection via offline camera already exists. Maybe a good safety feature to add for next gen airliners?

I think the 777 has a system that makes the stick shaker go off if a button or switch isn't used evey 30 or so minutes in order to wake up the pilots if they fall asleep. Maybe it's time to have that beam to the operations center if it doesn't already.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:54 am

The airline said it was working to put “the most rigorous fatigue risk management programme in place.”


The airline said it implemented “enhanced terms and conditions for hours worked,” but did not provide details.


Did they say that with a straight face? :rotfl:

One first officer said he had filed eight fatigue reports after falling asleep on more than a dozen recent flights.

Three were rejected outright. One approved request got him 24 hours of rest in Doha – after which he was scheduled on a 23-hour turnaround flight to east Asia.


This kind of nonsense is going to result in a serious crash. Other regulators need to step in. There was already an incident in Brisbane a few weeks ago where a landing Qatar 777 (A7-BED) nearly missed the runway completely.

LDRA wrote:
In a more serious note, the technology for drowsyness detection via offline camera already exists. Maybe a good safety feature to add for next gen airliners?


Is it though? In QR's case it will just result in more punishment of the pilots. The 777s have Crew Alertness Monitors.

J343 wrote:
I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff.


You need an Exit Visa to leave those places. Can't get an exit visa without your employer approving it. As such, it's not nearly as simple to resign and leave as it would be in the Western World, especially if you have family there.

J343 wrote:
I have flown with both QR and EK and frankly it’s not worth all the hype and since then, after learning about how they treat their staff, I vowed to never fly them ever again.

:checkmark:

CobaltScar wrote:
Don't they get most their crew from poorer countries desperate for work? These people are not going to speak up, its up to countries with actual standards to ban them from their airspace until they allow international inspectors to oversee crew safety.


Quite a few MH crew joined when MH retired their 777s and went through the cost-cutting program. Similarly plenty joined supposedly joined from Jet Airways following its collapse.
 
trent768
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:45 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Don't they get most their crew from poorer countries desperate for work? These people are not going to speak up, its up to countries with actual standards to ban them from their airspace until they allow international inspectors to oversee crew safety.

I've only had 6 flights with QR/EK and IIRC, 3 flight deck announcements were spoken by the captain in a very noticeable British accent with western names.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:46 am

zkojq wrote:
seat1a wrote:
A friend in the industry recently told me the safest carrier of the ME3 is Etihad. Then Qatar and Emirates a distance second and third. Any validity to this?


Etihad sues forum/message boards that publish complaints from their crews inorder to have content that doesn't make them look good removed and (try) to identify the crew members who posted it.

https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/4805 ... bited.html

https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/noti ... y-252.html


QR has also tried to use legal levers to unmask employee activity online - fortunately they found this didn’t get them very far in the US:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/intern ... 171339.cms
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:47 am

trent768 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Don't they get most their crew from poorer countries desperate for work? These people are not going to speak up, its up to countries with actual standards to ban them from their airspace until they allow international inspectors to oversee crew safety.

I've only had 6 flights with QR/EK and IIRC, 3 flight deck announcements were spoken by the captain in a very noticeable British accent with western names.


In a handful of flights to CPT and elsewhere, I have heard EK cockpit crew introduce themselves from UAE, Italy, Australia, the US, Seychelles, Mexico, and Ireland.
 
Amfleet82
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:23 am

A lot of Mexican pilots went to the ME3 after the Mexicana collapse. It timed coincidently when they were in a hot growth mode.

Adam
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:30 am

I wonder what people enjoying the Q-Suites would think if they knew how fatigued their pilots were? The abuse of pilots in the middle east has gotten much worse during covid, and unfortunately will probably result in a hull loss at this rate.
 
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LH748
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:16 am

It's just a matter of time till the Gulf states crumple under their established culture of abuse and human rights violations. The mindset that individual workers don't matter is deeply embedded there so I'm not surprised that after stadium builders, cabin crew members it's now the pilots who feel it. I assume we're just waiting for a catastrophe to happen that sheds some light on the situation but those countries are so powerful already that even that won't make much of a difference anymore. Qatar is friend and sponsor of the Taliban and even that fact wasn't bad enough to exclude them from being a partner of the West.
Sorry that this post is so political but QR is fully controlled by Qatar so matters are rather political.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:20 pm

not surprising. AAB will do anything and everything to ensure QR is the most publicized airline and will call all employees liars about anything negative.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:55 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Don't they get most their crew from poorer countries desperate for work? These people are not going to speak up, its up to countries with actual standards to ban them from their airspace until they allow international inspectors to oversee crew safety.


No, at least when it comes/came to pilots they pulled from everywhere. I had 3 friends go from US regionals to EK and QR. They went from flying CR7's and 9's with at the time a long road ahead to get to the majors to sitting in the right seat of wide bodies looking at moving to the left seat in short order along with good pay and great benefits.

Of course over time the benefits became less and less and the work conditions went downhill. They are all back in the US now, two at AA and one at UA I believe.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:31 pm

I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff.

Suggest a visit to these countries and a chat with many of the non whining staff. Great schools, great lifestyle, no tax on the income some of the worlds best restaurants, cheap petrol, amazing resorts. In short the lifestyle is second to none.

zkojq wrote:
You need an Exit Visa to leave those places. Can't get an exit visa without your employer approving it. As such, it's not nearly as simple to resign and leave as it would be in the Western World, especially if you have family there.


No thats factually incorrect.
You don't need an exit permit to leave the country. I can come and go as I want. Dubai has none of that and Qatar allows up to 5% of a company's employees to have such a clause in their employment contract. Qatar law further stipulates that any of those positions must be of crucial importance to the company. Thats Finance managers, Key Account Sales Managers and HR, definitely not operations.
With that said I have yet to come across a single expat who has been denied exit permit if requested.

No company is perfect, but this constant trashtalk of the middle eastern airlines is beyond me. People from across the globe are queueing up to work for them for a reason. Its a damn good and privileged life. Id recommend anyone to spend a few months down here. Its an amazing place right now and it develops at breathtaking speed. Nothing is perfect, but I have been in 100 countries and I have flown more than most and I can not fathom why there is so much vitrol directed towards these well run organisations. No organisation is perfect, but i sure dont see the ME 3 being worse than your average European or Asian airline. Far from it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:54 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff.

Suggest a visit to these countries and a chat with many of the non whining staff. Great schools, great lifestyle, no tax on the income some of the worlds best restaurants, cheap petrol, amazing resorts. In short the lifestyle is second to none.

zkojq wrote:
You need an Exit Visa to leave those places. Can't get an exit visa without your employer approving it. As such, it's not nearly as simple to resign and leave as it would be in the Western World, especially if you have family there.


No thats factually incorrect.
You don't need an exit permit to leave the country. I can come and go as I want. Dubai has none of that and Qatar allows up to 5% of a company's employees to have such a clause in their employment contract. Qatar law further stipulates that any of those positions must be of crucial importance to the company. Thats Finance managers, Key Account Sales Managers and HR, definitely not operations.
With that said I have yet to come across a single expat who has been denied exit permit if requested.

No company is perfect, but this constant trashtalk of the middle eastern airlines is beyond me. People from across the globe are queueing up to work for them for a reason. Its a damn good and privileged life. Id recommend anyone to spend a few months down here. Its an amazing place right now and it develops at breathtaking speed. Nothing is perfect, but I have been in 100 countries and I have flown more than most and I can not fathom why there is so much vitrol directed towards these well run organisations. No organisation is perfect, but i sure dont see the ME 3 being worse than your average European or Asian airline. Far from it.


I have been over there...to each their own. I would much prefer TYO or SIN.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:25 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff.

Suggest a visit to these countries and a chat with many of the non whining staff. Great schools, great lifestyle, no tax on the income some of the worlds best restaurants, cheap petrol, amazing resorts. In short the lifestyle is second to none.

zkojq wrote:
You need an Exit Visa to leave those places. Can't get an exit visa without your employer approving it. As such, it's not nearly as simple to resign and leave as it would be in the Western World, especially if you have family there.


No thats factually incorrect.
You don't need an exit permit to leave the country. I can come and go as I want. Dubai has none of that and Qatar allows up to 5% of a company's employees to have such a clause in their employment contract. Qatar law further stipulates that any of those positions must be of crucial importance to the company. Thats Finance managers, Key Account Sales Managers and HR, definitely not operations.
With that said I have yet to come across a single expat who has been denied exit permit if requested.

No company is perfect, but this constant trashtalk of the middle eastern airlines is beyond me. People from across the globe are queueing up to work for them for a reason. Its a damn good and privileged life. Id recommend anyone to spend a few months down here. Its an amazing place right now and it develops at breathtaking speed. Nothing is perfect, but I have been in 100 countries and I have flown more than most and I can not fathom why there is so much vitrol directed towards these well run organisations. No organisation is perfect, but i sure dont see the ME 3 being worse than your average European or Asian airline. Far from it.


This is what I tried to say for a while. Every time when I point out the inconsistence of their argument I got attacked. Sometimes you can't point out the obvious. Sure AAB is not a likeable characters but he led Emirates to what it is today and he is making Qatar Airways more famous than ever to a global audience. The same goes to Ryanair and its boss. Working conditions in Middle East is not ideal and sometimes inhumane for some professions, yet aviation employee (especially pilots) is a privileged class, even more privileged than nurses.

Granted there are cases of employee not happy about their employers. It happens every where and in every airline. I am more than happy to hear stories first hand from the ex ME employees about their experiences and stories. But here on A.net there are fa more 'I hear from someone...' type of stories. So far I only read a lone B777 pilots doing his utter most to discredit his former employers. I would love to hear more first hand experiences, especially bad ones. Only more people start to talk about it openly, without bias, we would make our own mind up with all the evidences.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 pm

Chemist wrote:
If they're as bad on safety as anecdotes indicate, it's only a matter of time before a major accident occurs.


Sometimes people and organisations will learn things only the hard way. Hopefully this happens with a freighter rather than an A380 with pax
 
ltbewr
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:48 pm

As I brought up in a previous discussion of an incident involving QR, to me the ME3 seems to have poor cockpit resource management (CRM) compounded by draconian laws and internal policies that discourage reports of poor CRM and incidents. It took a few too many deadly crashes of some airlines due to their culture, many pilots from their military air forces, to put in CRM and supported no-penalty reporting of incidents, poor CRM. Hopefully the ME3, perhaps with pressure from outside insurers, to put in proper CRM and related ability to report incidents without penalty before there is a deadly crash.
 
sxf24
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Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:52 pm

ltbewr wrote:
As I brought up in a previous discussion of an incident involving QR, to me the ME3 seems to have poor cockpit resource management (CRM) compounded by draconian laws and internal policies that discourage reports of poor CRM and incidents. It took a few too many deadly crashes of some airlines due to their culture, many pilots from their military air forces, to put in CRM and supported no-penalty reporting of incidents, poor CRM. Hopefully the ME3, perhaps with pressure from outside insurers, to put in proper CRM and related ability to report incidents without penalty before there is a deadly crash.


Thanks to DL, the ME3 have become a convenient villain for the US airline industry and most employees here have a skewed perspective.

While there are deficiencies compared to US or Western European airlines, but the ME3 are substantially more advanced from a systems, policies, or cultural perspective than Chinese or Southeast Asian airlines.
 
J343
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:15 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
I don’t understand why people still choose to work for QR and EK considering how they treat their staff.

Suggest a visit to these countries and a chat with many of the non whining staff. Great schools, great lifestyle, no tax on the income some of the worlds best restaurants, cheap petrol, amazing resorts. In short the lifestyle is second to none.

zkojq wrote:
You need an Exit Visa to leave those places. Can't get an exit visa without your employer approving it. As such, it's not nearly as simple to resign and leave as it would be in the Western World, especially if you have family there.


No thats factually incorrect.
You don't need an exit permit to leave the country. I can come and go as I want. Dubai has none of that and Qatar allows up to 5% of a company's employees to have such a clause in their employment contract. Qatar law further stipulates that any of those positions must be of crucial importance to the company. Thats Finance managers, Key Account Sales Managers and HR, definitely not operations.
With that said I have yet to come across a single expat who has been denied exit permit if requested.

No company is perfect, but this constant trashtalk of the middle eastern airlines is beyond me. People from across the globe are queueing up to work for them for a reason. Its a damn good and privileged life. Id recommend anyone to spend a few months down here. Its an amazing place right now and it develops at breathtaking speed. Nothing is perfect, but I have been in 100 countries and I have flown more than most and I can not fathom why there is so much vitrol directed towards these well run organisations. No organisation is perfect, but i sure dont see the ME 3 being worse than your average European or Asian airline. Far from it.



I have been to both Doha and Dubai. I would much prefer SIN, HKG and the West where I can keep my dignity and human rights. Each to their own.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:42 pm

zkojq wrote:
I have been to both Doha and Dubai. I would much prefer SIN, HKG and the West where I can keep my dignity and human rights. Each to their own.


Human rights, dignity and HK? Interesting example...
My perception, and I am not in HK presently, is that morale among CX employees has been better. My perception is also that few employees are impressed with present managements approach to human capital, remuneration and contract adherence. However, no doubt, others are more knowledgable on this topic.

My own perception is that many who complain about QR, EK and EY do so without any knowledge, experience or understanding of their processes, their practices or for that sake employment contracts. I find that hard to stomach. If there is critique, state what's not safe and then compare it empirically to other major airlines and whether there is much difference. My belief is that maintenance, processes and procedures in this part of the world can be compared favourably to many of its competitors.

Id also recommend that a discussion is had with all those that are expats. Come and tell most expats in the middle east that their lifestyle & employment contract is is worse than it would be in Europe, Aussie or North America and that only third world country citizens wants to move here. Its ridiculous. There are thousands upon thousands looking for a job here and those of us who have an expat gig here are pretty damn fortunate.
 
bigb
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Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:05 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
zkojq wrote:
I have been to both Doha and Dubai. I would much prefer SIN, HKG and the West where I can keep my dignity and human rights. Each to their own.


Human rights, dignity and HK? Interesting example...
My perception, and I am not in HK presently, is that morale among CX employees has been better. My perception is also that few employees are impressed with present managements approach to human capital, remuneration and contract adherence. However, no doubt, others are more knowledgable on this topic.

My own perception is that many who complain about QR, EK and EY do so without any knowledge, experience or understanding of their processes, their practices or for that sake employment contracts. I find that hard to stomach. If there is critique, state what's not safe and then compare it empirically to other major airlines and whether there is much difference. My belief is that maintenance, processes and procedures in this part of the world can be compared favourably to many of its competitors.

Id also recommend that a discussion is had with all those that are expats. Come and tell most expats in the middle east that their lifestyle & employment contract is is worse than it would be in Europe, Aussie or North America and that only third world country citizens wants to move here. Its ridiculous. There are thousands upon thousands looking for a job here and those of us who have an expat gig here are pretty damn fortunate.


I guess it’s great until you are made redundant or have safety decisions undermined by the company. Yeah, no. The only reason why expat pilots are lining up for QR and EK is because they can’t find work in their home countries outside of the US. But I don’t buy the kook aid you are drinking. I’ve worked with quite a bit of former QR and EK expat pilots. My sim partner was a former A380 CA at EK and had a few former EK guys in my new hire class and had a former QR guy as a sim instructor. All of their stories paint a picture of what is really like working for EK and QR. Sure some of the benefits are great and lifestyle is nice, but that doesn’t make great places to work at in terms of safety culture stand point.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:09 pm

bigb wrote:
MillwallSean wrote:
zkojq wrote:
I have been to both Doha and Dubai. I would much prefer SIN, HKG and the West where I can keep my dignity and human rights. Each to their own.


Human rights, dignity and HK? Interesting example...
My perception, and I am not in HK presently, is that morale among CX employees has been better. My perception is also that few employees are impressed with present managements approach to human capital, remuneration and contract adherence. However, no doubt, others are more knowledgable on this topic.

My own perception is that many who complain about QR, EK and EY do so without any knowledge, experience or understanding of their processes, their practices or for that sake employment contracts. I find that hard to stomach. If there is critique, state what's not safe and then compare it empirically to other major airlines and whether there is much difference. My belief is that maintenance, processes and procedures in this part of the world can be compared favourably to many of its competitors.

Id also recommend that a discussion is had with all those that are expats. Come and tell most expats in the middle east that their lifestyle & employment contract is is worse than it would be in Europe, Aussie or North America and that only third world country citizens wants to move here. Its ridiculous. There are thousands upon thousands looking for a job here and those of us who have an expat gig here are pretty damn fortunate.


I guess it’s great until you are made redundant or have safety decisions undermined by the company. Yeah, no. The only reason why expat pilots are lining up for QR and EK is because they can’t find work in their home countries outside of the US. But I don’t buy the kook aid you are drinking. I’ve worked with quite a bit of former QR and EK expat pilots. My sim partner was a former A380 CA at EK and had a few former EK guys in my new hire class and had a former QR guy as a sim instructor. All of their stories paint a picture of what is really like working for EK and QR. Sure some of the benefits are great and lifestyle is nice, but that doesn’t make great places to work at in terms of safety culture stand point.


BUT poor safety culture stand point or decisions undermined by company, is that really the truth?
Where is the evidence? Is a mate of a mate really the best source?
Or should we look at empirical evidence. Lets say comparison of incidents and accidents of EK/QR vs your US airline? I'm very happy to provide you with the results. Quite an eye opener.
Head over to PPrune and read any forum and see whose happy, not exactly sunshine among the US contributors either.

Fact is all ME3 are well within the agreed international rules when it comes to pilots working conditions, fatigue and working hours. Remuneration and schooling benefits is excellent in comparison with many other airlines hence the number of applicants.

Also there is very little difference in the labour markets in Europe, Canada or Aussie compared to the US. And from all four of these sourcing markets you see a lot of pilots, flight attendants, management professionals applying to the ME3. Management has as one of its roles to set the organisational culture. Not individual employees. In fact organisational culture is handled by managers in the people and culture department where behavioural scientists provide some really exciting input, but that's another discussion.
 
santi319
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:57 pm

This was discussed in the EK incident thread. And again everyone forgets that people have already died (Flydubai in Rostov in 2016). Just because you hide the truth doesn’t make it a new reality. These carriers in the Gulf remind me of that saying that goes: the grass is greener because is fake.
 
bigb
Posts: 1737
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:19 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
bigb wrote:
MillwallSean wrote:

Human rights, dignity and HK? Interesting example...
My perception, and I am not in HK presently, is that morale among CX employees has been better. My perception is also that few employees are impressed with present managements approach to human capital, remuneration and contract adherence. However, no doubt, others are more knowledgable on this topic.

My own perception is that many who complain about QR, EK and EY do so without any knowledge, experience or understanding of their processes, their practices or for that sake employment contracts. I find that hard to stomach. If there is critique, state what's not safe and then compare it empirically to other major airlines and whether there is much difference. My belief is that maintenance, processes and procedures in this part of the world can be compared favourably to many of its competitors.

Id also recommend that a discussion is had with all those that are expats. Come and tell most expats in the middle east that their lifestyle & employment contract is is worse than it would be in Europe, Aussie or North America and that only third world country citizens wants to move here. Its ridiculous. There are thousands upon thousands looking for a job here and those of us who have an expat gig here are pretty damn fortunate.


I guess it’s great until you are made redundant or have safety decisions undermined by the company. Yeah, no. The only reason why expat pilots are lining up for QR and EK is because they can’t find work in their home countries outside of the US. But I don’t buy the kook aid you are drinking. I’ve worked with quite a bit of former QR and EK expat pilots. My sim partner was a former A380 CA at EK and had a few former EK guys in my new hire class and had a former QR guy as a sim instructor. All of their stories paint a picture of what is really like working for EK and QR. Sure some of the benefits are great and lifestyle is nice, but that doesn’t make great places to work at in terms of safety culture stand point.


BUT poor safety culture stand point or decisions undermined by company, is that really the truth?
Where is the evidence? Is a mate of a mate really the best source?
Or should we look at empirical evidence. Lets say comparison of incidents and accidents of EK/QR vs your US airline? I'm very happy to provide you with the results. Quite an eye opener.
Head over to PPrune and read any forum and see whose happy, not exactly sunshine among the US contributors either.

Fact is all ME3 are well within the agreed international rules when it comes to pilots working conditions, fatigue and working hours. Remuneration and schooling benefits is excellent in comparison with many other airlines hence the number of applicants.

Also there is very little difference in the labour markets in Europe, Canada or Aussie compared to the US. And from all four of these sourcing markets you see a lot of pilots, flight attendants, management professionals applying to the ME3. Management has as one of its roles to set the organisational culture. Not individual employees. In fact organisational culture is handled by managers in the people and culture department where behavioural scientists provide some really exciting input, but that's another discussion.


I am not going to put out the stories that was shared with me out of privacy of my friend. But I’m sorry, I’ve already heard enough, let’s just say that they wanted him to continue instead of his diversion point with a Engine out knowing that that the fuel wasn’t there for it. Then they try to put discredit his decision afterwards in the sims… You can compare incidents and accidents all you want, but at least my shop isn’t trying to discredit your decision making of diverting on a engine failure

I also aware of the labor markets between the US and everywhere else. I made that point, you have everyone but US based pilots chasing QR and EK because the market is damn near not existent in their home lands… I have Australians, Canadians, and Europeans trying to network with me to get hired onto my shop in the US and asking about E3 visas and what not.

Again, based on things I’ve heard from multiple people. I am not buying koolaid you are selling. PPrune posts, Airline Pilot Central posts, Jetcareers, or flying subreddit won’t change that
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4932
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:30 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
BUT poor safety culture stand point or decisions undermined by company, is that really the truth?
Where is the evidence? Is a mate of a mate really the best source?


You're right! What would an ex Emirates/Qatar pilot possibly know about what it's like working for Emirates/Qatar?

MillwallSean wrote:
Fact is all ME3 are well within the agreed international rules when it comes to pilots working conditions, fatigue and working hours.


No that's not a fact: it's patently false. A colleague who is ex EK had only a single month in his final year where he didn't go over the 100hr a month ICAO limit. And that was because he had a week or two's leave.

MillwallSean wrote:
Also there is very little difference in the labour markets in Europe, Canada or Aussie compared to the US. And from all four of these sourcing markets you see a lot of pilots, flight attendants, management professionals applying to the ME3. Management has as one of its roles to set the organisational culture. Not individual employees. In fact organisational culture is handled by managers in the people and culture department where behavioural scientists provide some really exciting input, but that's another discussion.


The same organizational culture at EK that has rostering managers tell crew that no they can't go back to their home country for a parent's funeral and that their parent would be proud of them for working their rosters flights instead?

MillwallSean wrote:
You don't need an exit permit to leave the country. I can come and go as I want.


And you're EK crew and are subject to their rules?

Aaron747 wrote:
I have been over there...to each their own. I would much prefer TYO or SIN.


:checkmark: Dubai is easily the most overhyped city on the planet.

chonetsao wrote:
Granted there are cases of employee not happy about their employers. It happens every where and in every airline. I am more than happy to hear stories first hand from the ex ME employees about their experiences and stories. But here on A.net there are fa more 'I hear from someone...' type of stories. So far I only read a lone B777 pilots doing his utter most to discredit his former employers. I would love to hear more first hand experiences, especially bad ones. Only more people start to talk about it openly, without bias, we would make our own mind up with all the evidences.


So, following this logic, there should be thousands of disgruntled ex United, British Airways, Lufthansa, Qantas and KLM pilots all over the internet telling everyone who will listen just what terrible companies those are to fly for....

NW747-400 wrote:
All you have to do is head on over to the PPRUNE forums and read what the current QR pilots are saying.


:checkmark:

Or EK pilots. Or EY pilots....oh wait, maybe not them.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 17190
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:47 pm

Would just like to share what I wrote in the general QR thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468563&p=23149473#p23149473

“Qatar as a nation is still growing when it comes providing fair expectations for workers. It is something they freely admit at the highest levels. They also rightly point out the opportunities and benefits they have provided to foreign workers.

“Qatar has never shied away from acknowledging that its labour system is still a work in progress, but we expect reporting to present the facts as they stand. Going forward, Qatar remains firmly committed to cooperation, transparency and continuous improvement of its labour system.”

From https://www.gco.gov.qa/en/2021/11/23/im ... -guardian/

This story is not news for anyone in industry.”

While many are pointing out the negatives, the positives are DOH is a relatively modern city, it’s a modern fleet, and the provide advancement opportunities not available elsewhere.

It’s something like any job or contract you need to go into with full knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages.

Pilots who have routinely been flying international during covid have been subjected to inhumane treatment because every airport you seem to go to adopts their own procedures. A lot of flights were conducted without passengers or cabin crew.

zkojq wrote:
No that's not a fact: it's patently false. A colleague who is ex EK had only a single month in his final year where he didn't go over the 100hr a month ICAO limit. And that was because he had a week or two's leave.


It is perfectly legal under ICAO to go over 100 hrs in the previous 28 days calculated on a rolling basis at long as at the start of the month it is below 100. This is pretty typical fir a long haul pilot.
 
acavpics
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:11 am

I can’t help but wonder, why is it that pilots/FA’s at QR, EK and any other airline that strenuously works their crew does not plan or at least threaten to strike?

I get it. If only a handful of pilots threaten to strike, then those individuals will be fired. But fatigue extends to most if not all crewmembers at a given airline.

If large swaths of pilots and cabin crew in a specific airline crew unite and threaten to strike, the airline risks having hundreds of flights being cancelled and other major disruptions in top of a bad PR. Not to mention that if the strikes make world headlines (which they most certainly would), aspiring pilots would be discouraged from joining this airline. Which means that the airline would either be forced to improve working conditions or have major operations disruptions, downsize, and have a bad PR.

Look at BA and LH. Crew have threatened and even gone on strike before and that was the road to better pay, working conditions etc.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17847
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:31 am

acavpics wrote:
I can’t help but wonder, why is it that pilots/FA’s at QR, EK and any other airline that strenuously works their crew does not plan or at least threaten to strike?

I get it. If only a handful of pilots threaten to strike, then those individuals will be fired. But fatigue extends to most if not all crewmembers at a given airline.

If large swaths of pilots and cabin crew in a specific airline crew unite and threaten to strike, the airline risks having hundreds of flights being cancelled and other major disruptions in top of a bad PR. Not to mention that if the strikes make world headlines (which they most certainly would), aspiring pilots would be discouraged from joining this airline. Which means that the airline would either be forced to improve working conditions or have major operations disruptions, downsize, and have a bad PR.

Look at BA and LH. Crew have threatened and even gone on strike before and that was the road to better pay, working conditions etc.


A bit of naivete in that post, sorry to say. The GCC carriers are all tied to their governments at the hip, and these governments do not allow organized protest. Threatening strike would be potentially calamitous for the personal situations of pilots and their families. In the UAE for instance, you can be jailed for merely posting negatively about government agencies or officials online. Organizing public action would likely have more severe consequences. It's not worth testing those limits in such countries.
 
BudSpencer
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:10 pm

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:55 am

acavpics wrote:
Look at BA and LH. Crew have threatened and even gone on strike before and that was the road to better pay, working conditions etc.


Yeah, but you can't compare the "strike conditions" in Germany for example to those in the Middle East. Even if I've never been to the ME, let alone having worked there, I can tell about Germany that labour unions have relatively strong power and influence compared to many other countries. The returning strikes of Deutsche Bahn (rail company) show that pretty clearly. On the one hand, that's good for workers, especially when multi national companies are involved. But on the other hand, I can see people going too far with such rights (for exaple: I don't think it's a coincidence that the vaccination rate is so low here, but it's obviously still accepted that some folks are complaining about any measures in unbelievably aggressive an unreasonably ways).
I don't want to define the limits about workers' or companies' rights here. But I would guess that at BA or LH, you have way better chances to successfully rise against the management of your companies than you have in the UAE, Qatar or somewhere else in the Middle East.

The system of workers unions and social safeguards has a long tradition in (Western) Europe, and isn't present in that way in many other places in the world.

What I want to say is: It won't be that easy to say "Hey guys, let's strike all together against the management here in Qatar, so that they can't fire us all together", even if people in other contries have succeeded doing this.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17847
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:50 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
Or should we look at empirical evidence. Lets say comparison of incidents and accidents of EK/QR vs your US airline? I'm very happy to provide you with the results. Quite an eye opener.


Really? I dunno about this - with the sheer volume of operations in the US compared to ME3, it is exceedingly unlikely on a statistical basis alone that EK/QR would compare favorably.
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: Qatar Airways back under the spotlight-This time Doctored hours and Fatigued crew

Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:28 pm

MillwallSean wrote:

Suggest a visit to these countries and a chat with many of the non whining staff. Great schools, great lifestyle, no tax on the income some of the worlds best restaurants, cheap petrol, amazing resorts. In short the lifestyle is second to none.



Second to a lot of places in fact, in my book.
I have spend more time in these places than I care to remember.
I don`t know, perhaps it`s me, but I take issue when a small part of the population lives above the law.
I guess you haven`t been involved in a road collision with say, an Emirati, within the UAE....
Assuming you are not an Emirati, you`d be guilty, no matter what. Even if this other person was stinkin` drunk behind the wheel, for argument`s sake.

- And there`s the issue of the miserable conditions that so many foreigners live in.

- I have heard of non-married couples being harassed by police in the hotelroom they happen to share, just because they "P`d Off" the wrong person.

- Let`s not even get into the rights of Gay people.

- I like to have an alcoholic beverage on a terrace at a street corner, not hidden behind fake facades or in expensive hotel bars.
That to me is an example of a great lifestyle!

- Sand, so much sand! The dust just gets everywhere, really dislike it.

- The extreme heat is bearable as long as you don`t work outside too much.

- And lastly, the religious signs and intrusive audio everywhere is not my cup of tea either.

No, I can think of places on any continent I would visit before these dust pits without justice!
Just business only for me......reluctantly, and not too often.

Cheers,

No Tax On Rotax
Last edited by notaxonrotax on Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3251
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:28 pm

Re exit permits (sometimes called by another name)... IIRC only Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia have this procedure and it's the very reason I refuse to contemplate working there. Bonus fear of Qatar- the number of management staff who leave QR after only 2 years (voluntarily or not) is terrifying.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:59 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Re exit permits (sometimes called by another name)... IIRC only Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia have this procedure and it's the very reason I refuse to contemplate working there. Bonus fear of Qatar- the number of management staff who leave QR after only 2 years (voluntarily or not) is terrifying.

Last 12 months? The number is less than 5% among management cadres. Usually HR says that 92% retention is considered gold standard.
Qatars exit permits applies for up to 5% of company crucial employees. The company may designate such and usually that is Finance, Key account sales and HR plus certain directors.

zkojq wrote:
And you're EK crew and are subject to their rules?
.
What I am isn't important. What is important is that UAE sees no law about exit permits. Qatar sees one where 5% of staff can be designated as especially important and require such. Such staff is management, usually finance, Key accounts and HR. Operational staff such as pilots, flight attendants and maintenance lads don't need exit permits to leave Qatar.

zkojq wrote:
You're right! What would an ex Emirates/Qatar pilot possibly know about what it's like working for Emirates/Qatar?

Hmm thats one persons lived experience. I am sure that if you check you'll get as many views as there are employees.

Aaron747 wrote:
Really? I dunno about this - with the sheer volume of operations in the US compared to ME3, it is exceedingly unlikely on a statistical basis alone that EK/QR would compare favorably.

Please check and verify, don't assume. You'll be surprised at the results.

notaxonrotax wrote:
- And there`s the issue of the miserable conditions that so many foreigners live in.
- I have heard of non-married couples being harassed by police in the hotelroom they happen to share, just because they "P`d Off" the wrong person.
- Let`s not even get into the rights of Gay people.
- I like to have an alcoholic beverage on a terrace at a street corner, not hidden behind fake facades or in expensive hotel bars.
That to me is an example of a great lifestyle!
- Sand, so much sand! The dust just gets everywhere, really dislike it.
- The extreme heat is bearable as long as you don`t work outside too much.
- And lastly, the religious signs and intrusive audio everywhere is not my cup of tea either.
No, I can think of places on any continent I would visit before these dust pits without justice!


My impression is that your unhappy that its sand in the dessert and that its hot in the dessert. Cant help you there. Its sandy and its hot, but no sand enters the houses and well inside we have AC...
And a small FYI - Unmarried couples may, by law, cohabit in the UAE.
Should your mate have been harassed id suggest that you ask him what he has done to annoy people so much they report him to the police.

BudSpencer wrote:
I don't want to define the limits about workers' or companies' rights here. But I would guess that at BA or LH, you have way better chances to successfully rise against the management of your companies than you have in the UAE, Qatar or somewhere else in the Middle East.

That is correct, as an expat, if you choose todisobey company policies and procedures or for that sake engage in an unauthorised strike your contract will be terminated. Hopefully those looking for a unionised environment read up before they sign in the middle east or for that sake almost anywhere in Asia. Unionised airlines don't exist here. For good and for bad.

bigb wrote:
I also aware of the labor markets between the US and everywhere else. I made that point, you have everyone but US based pilots chasing QR and EK because the market is damn near not existent in their home lands… I have Australians, Canadians, and Europeans trying to network with me to get hired onto my shop in the US and asking about E3 visas and what not.

Ok, you believe US is exceptional, lovely. Have you travelled? Own a passport?
Id suggest you check how many Americans who choose to fly in the middle east, Asia or even Europe. Might come as a surprise.
 
bigb
Posts: 1737
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:40 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Re exit permits (sometimes called by another name)... IIRC only Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia have this procedure and it's the very reason I refuse to contemplate working there. Bonus fear of Qatar- the number of management staff who leave QR after only 2 years (voluntarily or not) is terrifying.

Last 12 months? The number is less than 5% among management cadres. Usually HR says that 92% retention is considered gold standard.
Qatars exit permits applies for up to 5% of company crucial employees. The company may designate such and usually that is Finance, Key account sales and HR plus certain directors.

zkojq wrote:
And you're EK crew and are subject to their rules?
.
What I am isn't important. What is important is that UAE sees no law about exit permits. Qatar sees one where 5% of staff can be designated as especially important and require such. Such staff is management, usually finance, Key accounts and HR. Operational staff such as pilots, flight attendants and maintenance lads don't need exit permits to leave Qatar.

zkojq wrote:
You're right! What would an ex Emirates/Qatar pilot possibly know about what it's like working for Emirates/Qatar?

Hmm thats one persons lived experience. I am sure that if you check you'll get as many views as there are employees.

Aaron747 wrote:
Really? I dunno about this - with the sheer volume of operations in the US compared to ME3, it is exceedingly unlikely on a statistical basis alone that EK/QR would compare favorably.

Please check and verify, don't assume. You'll be surprised at the results.

notaxonrotax wrote:
- And there`s the issue of the miserable conditions that so many foreigners live in.
- I have heard of non-married couples being harassed by police in the hotelroom they happen to share, just because they "P`d Off" the wrong person.
- Let`s not even get into the rights of Gay people.
- I like to have an alcoholic beverage on a terrace at a street corner, not hidden behind fake facades or in expensive hotel bars.
That to me is an example of a great lifestyle!
- Sand, so much sand! The dust just gets everywhere, really dislike it.
- The extreme heat is bearable as long as you don`t work outside too much.
- And lastly, the religious signs and intrusive audio everywhere is not my cup of tea either.
No, I can think of places on any continent I would visit before these dust pits without justice!


My impression is that your unhappy that its sand in the dessert and that its hot in the dessert. Cant help you there. Its sandy and its hot, but no sand enters the houses and well inside we have AC...
And a small FYI - Unmarried couples may, by law, cohabit in the UAE.
Should your mate have been harassed id suggest that you ask him what he has done to annoy people so much they report him to the police.

BudSpencer wrote:
I don't want to define the limits about workers' or companies' rights here. But I would guess that at BA or LH, you have way better chances to successfully rise against the management of your companies than you have in the UAE, Qatar or somewhere else in the Middle East.

That is correct, as an expat, if you choose todisobey company policies and procedures or for that sake engage in an unauthorised strike your contract will be terminated. Hopefully those looking for a unionised environment read up before they sign in the middle east or for that sake almost anywhere in Asia. Unionised airlines don't exist here. For good and for bad.

bigb wrote:
I also aware of the labor markets between the US and everywhere else. I made that point, you have everyone but US based pilots chasing QR and EK because the market is damn near not existent in their home lands… I have Australians, Canadians, and Europeans trying to network with me to get hired onto my shop in the US and asking about E3 visas and what not.

Ok, you believe US is exceptional, lovely. Have you travelled? Own a passport?
Id suggest you check how many Americans who choose to fly in the middle east, Asia or even Europe. Might come as a surprise.


Lol that’s funny. I was stationed overseas for majority of my military career and visited many places. Let alone, I fly international freight now. I don’t need to validate my international travel experience with you in order to have a opinion what the what really happening at EK/QR based on my interactions with former colleagues who work there. Too many red flags outweigh the green flags.

You are delusional to think that US pilots are lining up for pilot jobs in the ME3. Now, I can’t take you seriously…
 
Dreamflight767
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:43 pm

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:50 pm

Do the crew at TK have similar issues?
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3251
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Pilots raise alarm at Qatar Airways for doctored hours, hidden fatigue

Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:47 pm

QR staff exit rate... No not in the last 12 months- before that. And I've encountered quite a few of them back in Australia and every single one of the them had unpleasant stories to tell.

All expat residents in Qatar require exit permits. Don't know where one poster's only 5% or QR staff require it claim comes from...
https://dohahamadairport.com/airport-gu ... mmigration

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