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Noshow
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:37 pm

If it takes them so long to make up their mind all the experienced old guys might be gone, their know how and the lessons learned, and the experienced production people from the far right end of the learning curve. I consider it highly dangerous to give up so much of what once had made the company great and what made it different.
They wait it out another time again but there will never be "the right" moment to launch something new. They seem to look for excuses to do nothing. They'd need a clear strategy, products, company, sites and such. You cannot simply hold your breath for like ten years in a high tech environment like this. This will be used by the Chinese to move up. It will come back to bite Boeing one day.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:44 pm

Setting the engineers to work on a 2026 truss based concept wouldn't be a bad thing and keep them interested and give them experience. Given the difficulties in bringing complex airliners to market - returning to doing prototypes especially for things outside the box may be a good idea.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:46 pm

SteinarN wrote:
Two possible design challenges with such a design.
Where are the gear attached and stowed?
Where to place large fuel tanks for +3000nm range? The wings are very thin and dont offer much space for fuel.

Edit:
If the gear is placed in the engine nacelle, which requires quite a bit larger nacelle than in the picture, then the gear will be forward of the wing and presumably forward of cog, which ofc wont work. Aditionally, if the gear was angled backwards to reach the ground well aft of the nacelle then the wing bracing would interfere with the gear strut.


The landing gears stores in the lower horizontal strut.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:50 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline



https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Is there a chance for actual production before 2030 or 2035?
regular tube and wing takes at least 5 years (very optimistically), and truss concept would require a few more years to be cleared for design


2030 could be pushing it but you could see it by 2035 when some of the Airbus Eco Concepts would be available as well.

It seems kind of silly to go forward with a brand new traditional tube and wing at this point - when structures such as that are technically feasible.

I strongly suspect we won't see launch until after 2025.

Until then I think it will be all variants all the time.

777xf
787IGW
787F
MAX-9/10ER with higher MTOW and more thrust (based on work for 321XLR engines) to better compete with A321XLR.

Lets see. Being optimistically realistic about nextgen biplane:
Flying prototype 2027
Testing campaign complete 2030
Official launch 2032
Target EIS 2037
Realistic EIS 2040 or 2042.

This is the one after-next at best...
 
kalvado
Posts: 3790
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:51 pm

william wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Two possible design challenges with such a design.
Where are the gear attached and stowed?
Where to place large fuel tanks for +3000nm range? The wings are very thin and dont offer much space for fuel.

Edit:
If the gear is placed in the engine nacelle, which requires quite a bit larger nacelle than in the picture, then the gear will be forward of the wing and presumably forward of cog, which ofc wont work. Aditionally, if the gear was angled backwards to reach the ground well aft of the nacelle then the wing bracing would interfere with the gear strut.


The landing gears stores in the lower horizontal strut.

That's a HUGE can of worms IMHO. For one, that totally changes force distribution in that lower strut, from mostly tensile to... to god knows what...
 
SteinarN
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:13 pm

kalvado wrote:
william wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Two possible design challenges with such a design.
Where are the gear attached and stowed?
Where to place large fuel tanks for +3000nm range? The wings are very thin and dont offer much space for fuel.

Edit:
If the gear is placed in the engine nacelle, which requires quite a bit larger nacelle than in the picture, then the gear will be forward of the wing and presumably forward of cog, which ofc wont work. Aditionally, if the gear was angled backwards to reach the ground well aft of the nacelle then the wing bracing would interfere with the gear strut.


The landing gears stores in the lower horizontal strut.

That's a HUGE can of worms IMHO. For one, that totally changes force distribution in that lower strut, from mostly tensile to... to god knows what...


No way can the gear be stored, nor be supported by the as pictured lover truss bracing.
So I agree completely, kalvado, the lower truss can in no way support any gear.

While in theory such a design has benefits in a much larger aspect ratio without a prohibitive weight penalty it also comes with some serious design challenges, namely where to place the gear and where to place the fuel. If the solution to those design challenges adds so much weight that you end up with a heavier aircraft than a conventional tube and wing, what have you gained then? A larger span requiring a 767 type gate instead of a 737/320 size gate at the airport? I also notice such a design uses a T-tail. A T-tail is quite a bit heavier and more complex than a normal tail. So already there have you lost some of the potential benefits of a truss braced wing.

So, colour me sceptical...
 
LH707330
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:35 pm

SteinarN wrote:
kalvado wrote:
william wrote:

The landing gears stores in the lower horizontal strut.

That's a HUGE can of worms IMHO. For one, that totally changes force distribution in that lower strut, from mostly tensile to... to god knows what...


No way can the gear be stored, nor be supported by the as pictured lover truss bracing.
So I agree completely, kalvado, the lower truss can in no way support any gear.

While in theory such a design has benefits in a much larger aspect ratio without a prohibitive weight penalty it also comes with some serious design challenges, namely where to place the gear and where to place the fuel. If the solution to those design challenges adds so much weight that you end up with a heavier aircraft than a conventional tube and wing, what have you gained then? A larger span requiring a 767 type gate instead of a 737/320 size gate at the airport? I also notice such a design uses a T-tail. A T-tail is quite a bit heavier and more complex than a normal tail. So already there have you lost some of the potential benefits of a truss braced wing.

So, colour me sceptical...

I think the idea is to put it in the bulge at the base of the strut, think BAe 146 or ATR72.
 
jimatkins
Posts: 67
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:14 pm

One thing that always worried me about the BWB, as much as I like the purely esthetic aspects of futurism; How do you evacuate that cabin? Emergency exits in the leading edge?
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:14 pm

Could the truss-brace design incorporate the open rotor concept that GE recently publicized? Seems like a traditional ducted fan is being tested in the wind tunnels.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:34 pm

LH707330 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
kalvado wrote:
That's a HUGE can of worms IMHO. For one, that totally changes force distribution in that lower strut, from mostly tensile to... to god knows what...


No way can the gear be stored, nor be supported by the as pictured lover truss bracing.
So I agree completely, kalvado, the lower truss can in no way support any gear.

While in theory such a design has benefits in a much larger aspect ratio without a prohibitive weight penalty it also comes with some serious design challenges, namely where to place the gear and where to place the fuel. If the solution to those design challenges adds so much weight that you end up with a heavier aircraft than a conventional tube and wing, what have you gained then? A larger span requiring a 767 type gate instead of a 737/320 size gate at the airport? I also notice such a design uses a T-tail. A T-tail is quite a bit heavier and more complex than a normal tail. So already there have you lost some of the potential benefits of a truss braced wing.

So, colour me sceptical...

I think the idea is to put it in the bulge at the base of the strut, think BAe 146 or ATR72.


I was thinking ATR 72 design. Hopefully not as complex as the C17 gear.
 
texl1649
Posts: 2277
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:12 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline



https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Is there a chance for actual production before 2030 or 2035?
regular tube and wing takes at least 5 years (very optimistically), and truss concept would require a few more years to be cleared for design


2030 could be pushing it but you could see it by 2035 when some of the Airbus Eco Concepts would be available as well.

It seems kind of silly to go forward with a brand new traditional tube and wing at this point - when structures such as that are technically feasible.

I strongly suspect we won't see launch until after 2025.

Until then I think it will be all variants all the time.

777xf
787IGW
787F
MAX-9/10ER with higher MTOW and more thrust (based on work for 321XLR engines) to better compete with A321XLR.


Every major new model since the 747 (or 707?) has been a ‘bet the company’ gamble in some way/to some extent, and Joe Sutter won’t be around to advise on this one. I don’t think they can afford to sit around without a launch until 2025. Share prices and revenue would take a real hit from that timeline (from 787 launch in 2003 to 2025).

Now, I’m not a fan of the trussed brace ideas (do we really want planes to get slower and need gentler approaches/lower winds?), however, it brings to mind the need for Technological Readiness Level (TRL) 3. Boeing has helpfully addressed that, and I am not sure where the braced truss, open rotor, or other tech will be for that or integration/manufacturing/system readiness by 2025.

https://www.boeing.com/features/innovat ... ewman.page

Note this is from 2017, but after everything with the Max, after the 787, I doubt their product planning team is ready to throw much caution to the wind;

In reality, there is a colossal distance between being technically proven and having a successful implementation. This difficulty in transitioning a new technology or approach is affectionately referred to as “The Valley of Death.”

In industrial practice, there are many factors threatening the livelihood of technologies that are “ready.” There is an established Manufacturing Readiness Level (MRL) scale, adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense in 2005, that addresses the feasibility and affordability of producing the technology at the required scale and rate. There are also integration maturity metrics used to assess an Integration Readiness Level (IRL) scale. And both of these contribute to a System Readiness Level (SRL).

While TRL is known and used by most, these other scales are not so common. More often, the term “ilities” refers to the many important attributes of a design, product or system regarding form, fit and function. Among the most often mentioned for complex systems are reliability, availability, maintainability and supportability. For military aircraft, add transportability, and survivability (itself defined as susceptibility and vulnerability). And for everything, add affordability, although not usually included in the technical ilities.

(The author here wanted to mention plausible deniability.)

After TRL 6, there is a significant cost to mature the abilities of products and systems so that those seeking to use them can be confident that they will work as advertised. This cost and risk is the first part of the Valley of Death that makes it hard to transition a new technology or approach to real life. Even if the risk is low that a new invention will work as intended, there is still an enormous amount of cost and risk before successful implementation on or as a product.


Notice the wariness about both customer, and regulator readiness for new tech; that is definitely true today in the post-covid/max world of airlines.

Sometimes, it’s the customers who are not ready, as in the unsuccessful introduction of Skeelers in-line skates in 1972, and the very successful Rollerblade 15 years later.

Similarly, the iPad, introduced in 2010, had extraordinary success compared to the Letterbug (1986), EO Personal Communicator (1991), Apple Newton MessagePad (1993), the GRIDPad tablet (1989), Compaq Concerto (1993), Palmpilot (1996), NewsPad (1997), Fujitsu Stylistic 1000 tablet (1996), Intel Web Tablet (1999), Microsoft Pocket PC 2000 (2000), Microsoft Tablet PC (2002) and so on.

Sometimes the technology is nearly there, and the customers are ready, but the regulators are not. Unmanned aircraft are proven extensively in the military, but to date, drone pizza delivery is still limited to New Zealand. Similarly, the advent of urban air taxis is a ways off, according to civil regulators.

As the aerospace industry relies so heavily on the support and approval of these necessary partners—both military qualification and civil certification—I offer that we need to develop and establish a Regulatory Readiness Level (RRL) as another risk measure.

The Valley of Death is wide and deep, and risky to cross. But technologies do make it now and then, sometimes sponsored by the government and sometimes at private investment. Boeing has certainly developed its share of sci-fi-movie-like technologies for which the world was not ready.

But it turns out that merely inventing a solution and proving the technology are not the hardest parts. Being ready in all aspects to traverse the Valley is the real work in innovation.


Ironically, we are finally at a point where (electric) air taxis might become prominent/common, I guess, in some places, but again that was written 5 years ago. I hope they do go for a ‘moon shot’ again, if only because I enjoyed the idea of the sonic cruiser, anyway.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:21 pm

zeke wrote:

Who would buy a 737 then if a new jet was coming.


1 - somebody who had an existing fleet and wanted to add frames for commonality and no new training/spares/maint/etc.
2 - somebody who needed new birds sooner rather than later
 
Elementalism
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:43 pm

Article is discussing if Boeing will use existing engine technology based on Fossil fuels or go for something more green like Airbus's Hydrogen concept for their next gen aircraft.
 
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FlyingJhawk
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:03 pm

I am sorry to say that I've lost faith in Boeing to come up with anything new for the next 10 years. They've made too many strategic and launch blunders that will keep them busy for the rest of the decade.
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:13 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline

NASA plans to solicit industry in early 2022 for preliminary designs of aircraft configurations that could be tested, with the potential for first flight of the demonstrator no earlier than late 2026.


Image

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Being slow and deliberate while partnering with someone with technical expertise like NASA could help reduce risk.

This concept is still a classic tube with turbofans...
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline

NASA plans to solicit industry in early 2022 for preliminary designs of aircraft configurations that could be tested, with the potential for first flight of the demonstrator no earlier than late 2026.


Image

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Being slow and deliberate while partnering with someone with technical expertise like NASA could help reduce risk.

This concept is still a classic tube with turbofans...


But it isn’t the same familiar tube with turbofans design. A truss braced wing is not familiar, so perhaps this is what they were referring to.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:15 pm

jimatkins wrote:
One thing that always worried me 9about the BWB, as much as I like the purely esthetic aspects of futurism; How do you evacuate that cabin? Emergency exits in the leading edge?


The 727 had the rear stairs. You could imagine slides dropping through the floor. Wouldn't work for a belly landing though.

bt
 
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JerseyFlyer
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:05 am

Leeham thinks a Boeing launch could come as early as next year. Will be a generation too early for GE's open rotor concept.

"Based on market intelligence, Boeing may launch its new airplane program in 2023 or 2024, for entry into service by the end of the decade. GE’s open rotor, which it calls open fan, won’t be ready for application to an airliner until later in the 2030 decade"

https://leehamnews.com/2022/02/01/ges-o ... more-38421
 
JonesNL
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:17 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Leeham thinks a Boeing launch could come as early as next year. Will be a generation too early for GE's open rotor concept.

"Based on market intelligence, Boeing may launch its new airplane program in 2023 or 2024, for entry into service by the end of the decade. GE’s open rotor, which it calls open fan, won’t be ready for application to an airliner until later in the 2030 decade"

https://leehamnews.com/2022/02/01/ges-o ... more-38421


With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?
 
morrisond
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:58 am

JonesNL wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Leeham thinks a Boeing launch could come as early as next year. Will be a generation too early for GE's open rotor concept.

"Based on market intelligence, Boeing may launch its new airplane program in 2023 or 2024, for entry into service by the end of the decade. GE’s open rotor, which it calls open fan, won’t be ready for application to an airliner until later in the 2030 decade"

https://leehamnews.com/2022/02/01/ges-o ... more-38421


With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?


Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:01 pm

Which would be perfectly fine. A twin with tube and low wing layout has become standard layout for a reason. Just leave enough room for bigger engine diameters.
Radical new layout plus robot line might be too much at a time anyway.
 
morrisond
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:04 pm

texl1649 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Is there a chance for actual production before 2030 or 2035?
regular tube and wing takes at least 5 years (very optimistically), and truss concept would require a few more years to be cleared for design


2030 could be pushing it but you could see it by 2035 when some of the Airbus Eco Concepts would be available as well.

It seems kind of silly to go forward with a brand new traditional tube and wing at this point - when structures such as that are technically feasible.

I strongly suspect we won't see launch until after 2025.

Until then I think it will be all variants all the time.

777xf
787IGW
787F
MAX-9/10ER with higher MTOW and more thrust (based on work for 321XLR engines) to better compete with A321XLR.


Every major new model since the 747 (or 707?) has been a ‘bet the company’ gamble in some way/to some extent, and Joe Sutter won’t be around to advise on this one. I don’t think they can afford to sit around without a launch until 2025. Share prices and revenue would take a real hit from that timeline (from 787 launch in 2003 to 2025).

Now, I’m not a fan of the trussed brace ideas (do we really want planes to get slower and need gentler approaches/lower winds?), however, it brings to mind the need for Technological Readiness Level (TRL) 3. Boeing has helpfully addressed that, and I am not sure where the braced truss, open rotor, or other tech will be for that or integration/manufacturing/system readiness by 2025.

https://www.boeing.com/features/innovat ... ewman.page

Note this is from 2017, but after everything with the Max, after the 787, I doubt their product planning team is ready to throw much caution to the wind;

In reality, there is a colossal distance between being technically proven and having a successful implementation. This difficulty in transitioning a new technology or approach is affectionately referred to as “The Valley of Death.”

In industrial practice, there are many factors threatening the livelihood of technologies that are “ready.” There is an established Manufacturing Readiness Level (MRL) scale, adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense in 2005, that addresses the feasibility and affordability of producing the technology at the required scale and rate. There are also integration maturity metrics used to assess an Integration Readiness Level (IRL) scale. And both of these contribute to a System Readiness Level (SRL).

While TRL is known and used by most, these other scales are not so common. More often, the term “ilities” refers to the many important attributes of a design, product or system regarding form, fit and function. Among the most often mentioned for complex systems are reliability, availability, maintainability and supportability. For military aircraft, add transportability, and survivability (itself defined as susceptibility and vulnerability). And for everything, add affordability, although not usually included in the technical ilities.

(The author here wanted to mention plausible deniability.)

After TRL 6, there is a significant cost to mature the abilities of products and systems so that those seeking to use them can be confident that they will work as advertised. This cost and risk is the first part of the Valley of Death that makes it hard to transition a new technology or approach to real life. Even if the risk is low that a new invention will work as intended, there is still an enormous amount of cost and risk before successful implementation on or as a product.


Notice the wariness about both customer, and regulator readiness for new tech; that is definitely true today in the post-covid/max world of airlines.

Sometimes, it’s the customers who are not ready, as in the unsuccessful introduction of Skeelers in-line skates in 1972, and the very successful Rollerblade 15 years later.

Similarly, the iPad, introduced in 2010, had extraordinary success compared to the Letterbug (1986), EO Personal Communicator (1991), Apple Newton MessagePad (1993), the GRIDPad tablet (1989), Compaq Concerto (1993), Palmpilot (1996), NewsPad (1997), Fujitsu Stylistic 1000 tablet (1996), Intel Web Tablet (1999), Microsoft Pocket PC 2000 (2000), Microsoft Tablet PC (2002) and so on.

Sometimes the technology is nearly there, and the customers are ready, but the regulators are not. Unmanned aircraft are proven extensively in the military, but to date, drone pizza delivery is still limited to New Zealand. Similarly, the advent of urban air taxis is a ways off, according to civil regulators.

As the aerospace industry relies so heavily on the support and approval of these necessary partners—both military qualification and civil certification—I offer that we need to develop and establish a Regulatory Readiness Level (RRL) as another risk measure.

The Valley of Death is wide and deep, and risky to cross. But technologies do make it now and then, sometimes sponsored by the government and sometimes at private investment. Boeing has certainly developed its share of sci-fi-movie-like technologies for which the world was not ready.

But it turns out that merely inventing a solution and proving the technology are not the hardest parts. Being ready in all aspects to traverse the Valley is the real work in innovation.


Ironically, we are finally at a point where (electric) air taxis might become prominent/common, I guess, in some places, but again that was written 5 years ago. I hope they do go for a ‘moon shot’ again, if only because I enjoyed the idea of the sonic cruiser, anyway.


Basically all those arguments support the view that derivatives are the plan for the 2020's. They will put a lot more on the top and bottom lines in the near future than a clean sheet that might not be available for 8-10 years.

A pip'd IGW 787 and ER versions of the MAX could be developed and start to deliver before the first Carbon cloth was cut for the next airplane assuming it is something innovative.

That being said they have been working on various NMA/NSA concepts for some time. We have no idea how far along they are in their development. Theoretically we could see one of those by the end of the decade if they don't start from scratch again.
 
Noshow
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:10 pm

Derivatives were the plan for the 2010s. Now it's time to get new stuff rolling. What happened to all those promising concepts? There must be a lot ready to pull the trigger and get things going even faster?
New stuff cannot be moved out ten years over and over again. This is making MDD mistakes again. Boeing should commit to future programs. The sooner the better.
Last edited by Noshow on Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:12 pm

They could work the truss brace in by developing an NMA/322/757 sized airplane first with conventional wing and then reuse that nose/systems and cross section for a truss braced MAX replacement in the mid 2030's.

However the big thing holding back a before 2030 EIS for any new airplane will probably be the cockpit. That may be several years before the requirements get finalized by the regulators.
 
morrisond
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:13 pm

Noshow wrote:
Derivatives were the plan for the 2010s. Now it's time to get new stuff rolling. What happened to all those promising concepts? New stuff cannot be moved out ten years over and over again. This is making MDD mistakes again. Boeing should commit to future programs. The sooner the better.


I agree - that is what they should do - but I'll be surprised if that is what actually happens.
 
Noshow
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:13 pm

Is "waiting for the regulators" the new comfortable excuse to do nothing?
 
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journeyperson
Posts: 67
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:15 pm

Noshow wrote:
Which would be perfectly fine. A twin with tube and low wing layout has become standard layout for a reason. Just leave enough room for bigger engine diameters.
Radical new layout plus robot line might be too much at a time anyway.


Which is what they should have done instead of embarking on the Max and I am sure they know it.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3258
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:22 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline



Image

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Being slow and deliberate while partnering with someone with technical expertise like NASA could help reduce risk.

This concept is still a classic tube with turbofans...


But it isn’t the same familiar tube with turbofans design. A truss braced wing is not familiar, so perhaps this is what they were referring to.

If THAT is their breakthrough design, they need to hire a new set of engineers ASAP...
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
If THAT is their breakthrough design, they need to hire a new set of engineers ASAP...


They ARE hiring lots of engineers. But maybe not for the above reason :hyper:
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:17 pm

DartHerald wrote:
One day, someone, somewhere will have to break the service frequency paradigm and recognise that this level of service is unsustainable in an increasingly environmentally conscious society. It will be more efficient to use larger planes less frequently in order to reduce airport congestion, crew costs, airport fees and CO2 production. Business travellers will just have to get used to it and the manufacturer who comes up with a light weight twin aisle optimised for short to medium haul will have a field day!

Perhaps Airbus will have cause to reinvigorate the A300, which will come to be seen as years ahead of its time!

Yes, a twin aisle with 3000nm range that fits in a code C 36m gate. 200 to 225 pax in the density of WN, or 250 high density. 1/2 the freight hold of the A300 should be fine.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:27 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
They appear to continue to be progressing with the Truss Braced Wing Concept. It also opens the door for even larger fans since it is a high wing mounted design

https://youtu.be/NtQHjBinQQs

This chatter seems to match the NASA timeline

NASA plans to solicit industry in early 2022 for preliminary designs of aircraft configurations that could be tested, with the potential for first flight of the demonstrator no earlier than late 2026.


Image

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/nasa- ... onstrator/

Being slow and deliberate while partnering with someone with technical expertise like NASA could help reduce risk.

The truss braced wing should save weight in the structure of a large wingspan since the moment in bending isn't just resisted by the dimension of thickness of the wing but by the vertical dimension of the wing to the strut.
That said, what's the application for a large wingspan? Replace 737 and A320 with a folding tip so it fits in 36m gates, regional jets, or mid range 5000nm jet with a code D 52m span?
 
cat3appr50
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:42 pm

Boeing needs to put most of their resources into getting the 777X (and 777XF) to EIS asap and sort out and (permanently…is that too much to ask?) resolve the 787 quality issues asap, including holding to account those managers, etc. who have not been focused on manufacturing, etc. quality control on the 787 line resulting in delays, and holding to account managers, etc. (establish critical schedule milestones to be met and if not met they should be let go...no more seeming upper management/executive indifference toward continuing delays and quality issues) for any further delays of either aircraft. The 737 Max 10 with maximized overall fuel efficiency can be brought to sales in parallel and should not require that many resources to make that happen expediently.

This is just not the time for Boeing to start an entirely new aircraft line. If they don’t expediently get the 777X and 777XF in the air soon and (finally) expediently and permanently resolve the 787 manufacturing quality issues, airlines chomping at the bit to get their hands on these aircraft are just going to go away out of utter frustration and exhaustion…and Airbus will fill the gap and eat Boeing’s lunch (BTW, I say that as a major Boeing fan). A new aircraft line won’t matter (relative to sales) if they don’t get the 777X/777XF and 787’s flying asap…with no further quality issues and flying reliably and efficiently.

Just my opinion.
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:58 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
Boeing needs to put most of their resources into getting the 777X (and 777XF) to EIS asap and sort out and (permanently…is that too much to ask?) resolve the 787 quality issues asap, including holding to account those managers, etc. who have not been focused on manufacturing, etc. quality control on the 787 line resulting in delays, and holding to account managers, etc. (establish critical schedule milestones to be met and if not met they should be let go...no more seeming upper management/executive indifference toward continuing delays and quality issues) for any further delays of either aircraft. The 737 Max 10 with maximized overall fuel efficiency can be brought to sales in parallel and should not require that many resources to make that happen expediently.

This is just not the time for Boeing to start an entirely new aircraft line. If they don’t expediently get the 777X and 777XF in the air soon and (finally) expediently and permanently resolve the 787 manufacturing quality issues, airlines chomping at the bit to get their hands on these aircraft are just going to go away out of utter frustration and exhaustion…and Airbus will fill the gap and eat Boeing’s lunch (BTW, I say that as a major Boeing fan). A new aircraft line won’t matter (relative to sales) if they don’t get the 777X/777XF and 787’s flying asap…with no further quality issues and flying reliably and efficiently.

Just my opinion.


I don't expect BA to launch a new aircraft until after 777X/737MAX 7/10 certification and sorting out the 787 line. All of that should be done by the end of 2023 (in theory) which is about the time they would launch at the very earliest according to most rumors. So I think those concerns ought to be largely moot by then. It is possible other issues appear on BA's plate (they will be working on a few more aircraft, such as the new 777-8F, an IGW 78J, and possibly the 777-8 PAX) but BA should be in a decent position to undertake something larger by launch time.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:04 pm

We have heard similar things so many times. Why all this waiting? Decide what aircraft will sell best and build it. More waiting will not make things easier nor cheaper for Boeing. Airline customers must see a consistent long term product strategy for many years to come if they invest hundreds of millions and billions of dollars in their fleets.
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:22 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
It was bound to happen haha

A 757Max would not be impressive to me as I'm very partial to the RB211 but would've been a good choice had they kept the line open instead of try to push the 900 then 900ER.

The upper end of the fuselage length should be roughly about halfway between the 200 and 300 but with a width a little wider to allow for 18.2inch wide seats with real armrests. 3 fuselage lengths, wings for each model built to scale as the biggest hindrance the A321 faces is its wing. Same thing ended up dogging the A300 compared to the 767......


Well, would Boeing make or lose more money by spending billions in development costs and restarting the production line for the B757 MAX?

They probably gonna lose more money by pursuing it. So they didn't even bother.


The tooling has long been destroyed. Many 757 parts are obsolete. 737 Max notwithstanding, the 757 is a 40 year old design. People really need to get over the 757.

Boeing discontinued the 757 almost 20 years ago because no-one would buy it.


The 757 was optimized for US Domestic routes. Once the 737NG was developed with effectively trans-continental range, it took away a significant portion of the 757's market. There are some segments where the 757 is still an great airplane, for example, flying into Jackson Wyoming, which has a short, high altitude runway. I've taken that flight from SLC mid-winter and the landing was either exhilarating or frightening, depending upon one's perspective. It also is capable of doing trans-Atlantic ETOPS which is where Iceland Air uses the airplane. Another route which I've flown on the airplane.

Remember as well that when the 757 line was closed that US airlines were reeling from the 9/11 recession and were struggling just to keep the lights on let alone fleet planning. There would have been more sales had the Boeing board hadn't been hasty in its decisions.

The Boeing NMA supposedly was targeting the 757/767-200 hole in Boeing's current product line-up, which effectively would have been a 757Max airplane.
 
Breathe
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:31 pm

morrisond wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Leeham thinks a Boeing launch could come as early as next year. Will be a generation too early for GE's open rotor concept.

"Based on market intelligence, Boeing may launch its new airplane program in 2023 or 2024, for entry into service by the end of the decade. GE’s open rotor, which it calls open fan, won’t be ready for application to an airliner until later in the 2030 decade"

https://leehamnews.com/2022/02/01/ges-o ... more-38421


With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?


Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.

Maybe a chance for P&W to get back onto an in-production passenger Boeing plane too?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:24 pm

DenverTed wrote:
With a four or five year launch delay, has that shifted the chances more to a geared engine, or is a traditional architecture engine still in the running for a new airplane?


You realize geared jet engines are not new tech so it would fit in with traditional as well. Mind you ceramic parts are. The 146/RJ series jets had geared fans from day September 3rd , 1981.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:51 pm

Breathe wrote:
morrisond wrote:
JonesNL wrote:

With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?


Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.

Maybe a chance for P&W to get back onto an in-production passenger Boeing plane too?

Or RR on a narrowbody?
 
texl1649
Posts: 2277
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:21 pm

morrisond wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Leeham thinks a Boeing launch could come as early as next year. Will be a generation too early for GE's open rotor concept.

"Based on market intelligence, Boeing may launch its new airplane program in 2023 or 2024, for entry into service by the end of the decade. GE’s open rotor, which it calls open fan, won’t be ready for application to an airliner until later in the 2030 decade"

https://leehamnews.com/2022/02/01/ges-o ... more-38421


With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?


Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.


Keep in mind that GE, via their Avios subsidiary, makes the gearbox for Pratt; it’s not exactly unknown technology/materials/engineering for them. An upscaled geared leap with GE9X tech on a new plane for launch in 2023 is possible, if the patents on certain ratio’s are expiring this year, which they very well might be. I’m not an expert on the Pratt portfolio of patents, but keep in mind they generally expire in 17-20 years, and they started work on all of this with NASA clear back in 1993, though much of the geared work happened around 1998-2000. Regardless, I don’t expect GE/CFM to launch another entirely new engine family without a gearbox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:20 pm

texl1649 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
JonesNL wrote:

With what engine will they launch next year? Scaled down version of Ultrafan and/or GE9X?


Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.


Keep in mind that GE, via their Avios subsidiary, makes the gearbox for Pratt; it’s not exactly unknown technology/materials/engineering for them. An upscaled geared leap with GE9X tech on a new plane for launch in 2023 is possible, if the patents on certain ratio’s are expiring this year, which they very well might be. I’m not an expert on the Pratt portfolio of patents, but keep in mind they generally expire in 17-20 years, and they started work on all of this with NASA clear back in 1993, though much of the geared work happened around 1998-2000. Regardless, I don’t expect GE/CFM to launch another entirely new engine family without a gearbox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G

For launch in 2023??? Less than 2 years to spec, design, build and certify what is basically a new engine?
And that's not counting to decide on which aircraft it'll go, design new parts for said aircraft and certify the whole shabang.

3 words: ain't gonna happen.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:57 am

WayexTDI wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Most likely up thrust GTF or a geared version of the LEAP with GE9x tech for that timescale.

If it 2023 or 2024 I highly doubt its anything more than a conventional airframe.


Keep in mind that GE, via their Avios subsidiary, makes the gearbox for Pratt; it’s not exactly unknown technology/materials/engineering for them. An upscaled geared leap with GE9X tech on a new plane for launch in 2023 is possible, if the patents on certain ratio’s are expiring this year, which they very well might be. I’m not an expert on the Pratt portfolio of patents, but keep in mind they generally expire in 17-20 years, and they started work on all of this with NASA clear back in 1993, though much of the geared work happened around 1998-2000. Regardless, I don’t expect GE/CFM to launch another entirely new engine family without a gearbox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G

For launch in 2023??? Less than 2 years to spec, design, build and certify what is basically a new engine?
And that's not counting to decide on which aircraft it'll go, design new parts for said aircraft and certify the whole shabang.

3 words: ain't gonna happen.


I think they might have been referring to launching the program in 2023 (or 2024) not an EIS - which would probably would not happen to at least 2030. A geared LEAP could be possible by then.
 
atsiang
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:50 am

The glaring issue I see with the current Boeing's BoD/management is that I don't see them willing to take any big risks to produce a brand new clean sheet plane. In fact, this is the longest stretch in Boeing history, 18 years without them launching a brand new clean sheet design, last being, of course, the 787 launched in 2004.
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:47 am

atsiang wrote:
The glaring issue I see with the current Boeing's BoD/management is that I don't see them willing to take any big risks to produce a brand new clean sheet plane. In fact, this is the longest stretch in Boeing history, 18 years without them launching a brand new clean sheet design, last being, of course, the 787 launched in 2004.

Boeing actually is tremendously risk adverse. They don't want to go head-to-head with Airbus, so they are looking for holes in the market where they can place an airplane that Airbus can't match. The 767-300ER, 777-300ER, and 787 airplanes all commanded a premium because Airbus didn't have a competitor for a long-while to what Boeing was able to offer. Airbus did eventually get it right with the A330-200 and A350 where these airplanes have capability that Boeing products can't match. The A321XLR will fall into the same category for narrow bodies. The NMA was supposedly going to fill a hole where the 757/767-200 currently is. The problem here is how big of a market is there for this airplane and how much of a premium are airlines willing to pay for the perfectly sized airplane. And it is not just Boeing that has this problem of being risk adverse, the engine manufacturers also have to make their investment back when they are not in the best shape currently to launch a new airplane.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 am

What if they already decided to move out of the commercial business for some reason? Like MDD did all over again? Were is their credibility to be willing to invest? Aside from tiny wing concepts and green drones? Would they announce it or just milk what is left until the final moment?
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:45 am

morrisond wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

Keep in mind that GE, via their Avios subsidiary, makes the gearbox for Pratt; it’s not exactly unknown technology/materials/engineering for them. An upscaled geared leap with GE9X tech on a new plane for launch in 2023 is possible, if the patents on certain ratio’s are expiring this year, which they very well might be. I’m not an expert on the Pratt portfolio of patents, but keep in mind they generally expire in 17-20 years, and they started work on all of this with NASA clear back in 1993, though much of the geared work happened around 1998-2000. Regardless, I don’t expect GE/CFM to launch another entirely new engine family without a gearbox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G

For launch in 2023??? Less than 2 years to spec, design, build and certify what is basically a new engine?
And that's not counting to decide on which aircraft it'll go, design new parts for said aircraft and certify the whole shabang.

3 words: ain't gonna happen.


I think they might have been referring to launching the program in 2023 (or 2024) not an EIS - which would probably would not happen to at least 2030. A geared LEAP could be possible by then.


Correct. Launching a new commercial aircraft program with a new engine program is something that takes almost a decade to EIS today (8 to 11 years, easily). Both the A350 and 787 took about that long to really do so (the only comparators in the 21st century). I think Boeing could do the wings/design more quickly today a la T-7 rapid technology and their massively underutilized wing production/autoclaves, but the regulatory world…is going to be more challenging than ever.

Both Boeing and Airbus wisely don’t attempt to directly compete with each other, but spec aircraft in ‘gaps’ vs. the competitor, to seek a broader advantage with customers. The other thing GE could do, though I doubt they want to, is go for a license/royalty on certain geared patents at this point; it could be as little as a few hundred dollars per engine for the life of a family, as the patents are expiring anyway, it gets Pratt some funds long term and let’s them accelerate development. There are a lot of options, is my point, and nothing has to wait 5+ years to start working on/thinking about it.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:24 pm

texl1649 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
For launch in 2023??? Less than 2 years to spec, design, build and certify what is basically a new engine?
And that's not counting to decide on which aircraft it'll go, design new parts for said aircraft and certify the whole shabang.

3 words: ain't gonna happen.


I think they might have been referring to launching the program in 2023 (or 2024) not an EIS - which would probably would not happen to at least 2030. A geared LEAP could be possible by then.


Correct. Launching a new commercial aircraft program with a new engine program is something that takes almost a decade to EIS today (8 to 11 years, easily). Both the A350 and 787 took about that long to really do so (the only comparators in the 21st century). I think Boeing could do the wings/design more quickly today a la T-7 rapid technology and their massively underutilized wing production/autoclaves, but the regulatory world…is going to be more challenging than ever.

Both Boeing and Airbus wisely don’t attempt to directly compete with each other, but spec aircraft in ‘gaps’ vs. the competitor, to seek a broader advantage with customers. The other thing GE could do, though I doubt they want to, is go for a license/royalty on certain geared patents at this point; it could be as little as a few hundred dollars per engine for the life of a family, as the patents are expiring anyway, it gets Pratt some funds long term and let’s them accelerate development. There are a lot of options, is my point, and nothing has to wait 5+ years to start working on/thinking about it.

None of the OEM see the advantage of spending billions to irritate the other OEM and force it to invest as much money. The outcome would be both losing tons of money instead of cashing in.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:35 pm

Noshow wrote:
What if they already decided to move out of the commercial business for some reason? Like MDD did all over again? Were is their credibility to be willing to invest? Aside from tiny wing concepts and green drones? Would they announce it or just milk what is left until the final moment?


Its not going to happen - just read Boeings Market Forecast 2021-2040 - the potential market is huge.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/marke ... t-outlook/

For those harping on Boeing for not being innovative or investing in future product, here is the list since 787 Launched.

Clean Sheet or Substantial Redesign/ or change of length

787-8
787-9
787-10
748i
748F
777-9
777-8F
MAX 7
MAX 10

Re-engine

MAX 8
MAX 9

Airbus Clean Sheet/Change of Length

A359
A351
A350F

Re-Engine

A320 NEO
A321 NEO
A330-200NEO
A330-300NEO

Plus Boeing has been investing substantial sums on NMA/NSA - without COVID or MAX one would have to assume we would have seen it by now.

They are spending money and based on the potential size of the market we will see something eventually, I highly doubt they are going to shutdown.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:36 pm

Noshow wrote:
We have heard similar things so many times. Why all this waiting? Decide what aircraft will sell best and build it. More waiting will not make things easier nor cheaper for Boeing. Airline customers must see a consistent long term product strategy for many years to come if they invest hundreds of millions and billions of dollars in their fleets.


I think the A350 launch in 2005 with deliveries planned in 2010 and subsequent relaunch in 2006 with deliveries finally happening in 2015 along with the renegotiation of all the orders that came with that can be a lesson about the consequences of not waiting long enough for a design to mature

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-re ... re-launch/

We also saw Boeing drop the 787-3.
 
Noshow
Posts: 3704
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Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:54 pm

If both the NMA and NSA do finally not happen after evaluating for so long they might never launch anything else. Delaying might be okay, never doing anything but just talking up the season's new idea does not add credibility.
Airbus has a 30+ year old base design. It should be possible to match and top it if you are Boeing - and if you want to do something.
Is this major investors just wanting to milk them or who is responsible for this?
 
Kikko19
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Boeing Hints at Next New Jet as It Weighs Tough Engine Decisions

Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:30 pm

morrisond wrote:
Noshow wrote:
What if they already decided to move out of the commercial business for some reason? Like MDD did all over again? Were is their credibility to be willing to invest? Aside from tiny wing concepts and green drones? Would they announce it or just milk what is left until the final moment?


Its not going to happen - just read Boeings Market Forecast 2021-2040 - the potential market is huge.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/marke ... t-outlook/

For those harping on Boeing for not being innovative or investing in future product, here is the list since 787 Launched.

Clean Sheet or Substantial Redesign/ or change of length

787-8
787-9
787-10
748i
748F
777-9
777-8F
MAX 7
MAX 10

Re-engine

MAX 8
MAX 9

Airbus Clean Sheet/Change of Length

A359
A351
A350F

Re-Engine

A320 NEO
A321 NEO
A330-200NEO
A330-300NEO

Plus Boeing has been investing substantial sums on NMA/NSA - without COVID or MAX one would have to assume we would have seen it by now.

They are spending money and based on the potential size of the market we will see something eventually, I highly doubt they are going to shutdown.

Only real change for B is the 787 (new tube) for A a350 (same, new tube) and purchase of CS program. The rest are just redesign of wings, new engine, and some new materials used.

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