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atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:04 am

Pinto wrote:
I heard a rumor OO will be bringing back the PAH - CGI routing in the next few months to help offset the pilot shortage


I would not be surprised...but does this mean CGI loses the non stop to Chicago?

If so...for the love of god make it so we can non rev on the through flight!!!

Alex
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:41 am

I wouldn’t be surprised if they did a lot of tag on flights with the EAS cities. At this moment in time, the only one is JMS/DVL to DEN. A lot of the cities are close enough where a tag would make sense.

Alamosa, CO is going to be the tell. In the list of frequency reductions cities, that one is the next that is up for bidding, if Skywest doesn’t bid for that then that will show their commitment to the other cities on that list.

This could be an opportunity for DAC to grow significantly and maybe even for SAE to start a DEN hub similar to what Boutique used to have there.
 
Pinto
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:26 pm

atrude777 wrote:
Pinto wrote:
I heard a rumor OO will be bringing back the PAH - CGI routing in the next few months to help offset the pilot shortage


I would not be surprised...but does this mean CGI loses the non stop to Chicago?

If so...for the love of god make it so we can non rev on the through flight!!!

Alex


Yes and no. I can't remeber the exact routing but it alternated the first stop. Morning was CGI-PAH-ORD afternoon flight was ORD-PAH-CGI-ORD. No idea how it will be this time.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:19 pm

Pinto wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
Pinto wrote:
I heard a rumor OO will be bringing back the PAH - CGI routing in the next few months to help offset the pilot shortage


I would not be surprised...but does this mean CGI loses the non stop to Chicago?

If so...for the love of god make it so we can non rev on the through flight!!!

Alex


Yes and no. I can't remeber the exact routing but it alternated the first stop. Morning was CGI-PAH-ORD afternoon flight was ORD-PAH-CGI-ORD. No idea how it will be this time.


Yep, I recall when we had 3...

1-CGI-PAH-ORD (Outbound)

2-ORD-PAH-CGI-ORD (Turn)

3ORD-PAH-CGI (RON)

If SkyWest does change the traffic pattern it should be filed on the Regulation.Gov Website in time!

Alex
 
Chuska
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:43 am

Beginning Mar 4 OO will go back to a single ORD-LWB-SHD-IAD round-trip routing. Apr 1 both LWB and SHD are each scheduled to have one nonstop to both ORD and IAD but we'll see if that changes.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:13 pm

Chuska wrote:
Beginning Mar 4 OO will go back to a single ORD-LWB-SHD-IAD round-trip routing. Apr 1 both LWB and SHD are each scheduled to have one nonstop to both ORD and IAD but we'll see if that changes.


I’m not very surprised about this. Did you see this anywhere online or did you just look up flights and find it randomly?

Are their any other cities you’ve seen that are doing this?
 
superjeff
Posts: 1529
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:46 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
Of course, they are only cutting 2 flts/week.
Now they will have something like 2x MoWedThuFri, 0 Sat , 1 Sun, 1 tues or something like that. Still adequate it would seem.

Maybe route flights like Frontier in early 80s when they had 737s doing OMA LNK GRI LBF BFF DEN. Guess they got 19-20 pax avg per stop?


I can remember flying on the "River Route" in 1985 GRI-LBF-BFF-DEN on Frontier Horizon (Convair 580) and also in 1984 on Rocky Mountain Air Dash 7 (GRI-LNK-OMA), and it was like a bus. Every stop, a handful of people got off, another handful of people got on. But the planes were pretty full. And most of the passengers were connecting at either Denver or Omaha, depending on where they were headed.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:20 pm

atrude777 wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

IF there is a nice demand for some of the EAS routes, I could see United the airline bidding on them and sending it back to SkyWest or other regional.

Alex


None of the regionals have extra pilots. For UA to take the EAS and send it back to a regional, they will have to pull some other regional flying that is almost certainly more profitable.


I think all eyes will be on PQI then to see what happens going forward.

That's the only station where UA did the EAS and sourced the flying to a regional...

Going to be interesting the next few years!

Alex


UA is keeping PQI under a 2-year contract worth $10,874,142 a year. That's a whopping $4M a year more than last time round! They've had to explain themselves. The filing (https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2000-8012-0182) makes for an interesting read! That's an open door for someone to try and undercut them next time round though.

Actually PQI isn't the only EAS contract directly bid by UA. Cody WY is the other ;)
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:39 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

None of the regionals have extra pilots. For UA to take the EAS and send it back to a regional, they will have to pull some other regional flying that is almost certainly more profitable.


I think all eyes will be on PQI then to see what happens going forward.

That's the only station where UA did the EAS and sourced the flying to a regional...

Going to be interesting the next few years!

Alex


UA is keeping PQI under a 2-year contract worth $10,874,142 a year. That's a whopping $4M a year more than last time round! They've had to explain themselves. The filing (https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2000-8012-0182) makes for an interesting read! That's an open door for someone to try and undercut them next time round though.

Actually PQI isn't the only EAS contract directly bid by UA. Cody WY is the other ;)



Regarding Cody: I actually did not know that! Interesting! I stand corrected!

PQI: This is of interest to me because I work for the company that ground handles PQI-United Ground Express, with United Airlines. I assisted in doing the station transition and was always baffled why United themselves made a bid for PQI.

I checked out the document, you're right. Some good reading there!

I also didn't realize UA just renewed the contract for PQI! PQI must be doing well enough for UA to want to stay in the market?!

Alex
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:04 pm

atrude777 wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

I think all eyes will be on PQI then to see what happens going forward.

That's the only station where UA did the EAS and sourced the flying to a regional...

Going to be interesting the next few years!

Alex


UA is keeping PQI under a 2-year contract worth $10,874,142 a year. That's a whopping $4M a year more than last time round! They've had to explain themselves. The filing (https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2000-8012-0182) makes for an interesting read! That's an open door for someone to try and undercut them next time round though.

Actually PQI isn't the only EAS contract directly bid by UA. Cody WY is the other ;)



Regarding Cody: I actually did not know that! Interesting! I stand corrected!

PQI: This is of interest to me because I work for the company that ground handles PQI-United Ground Express, with United Airlines. I assisted in doing the station transition and was always baffled why United themselves made a bid for PQI.

I checked out the document, you're right. Some good reading there!

I also didn't realize UA just renewed the contract for PQI! PQI must be doing well enough for UA to want to stay in the market?!

Alex


Wow! That must have been interesting.

I think UA was lucky this was uncontested and that DOT is busy right now with several routes loosing carriers, either giving notice or being asked to leave. That's a stunning increase in subsidies. And this administration has shown it's not going to let carriers get away with murder. Remember how OO got stripped of PIR and ATY when DAC undercut them?

Cody is one of those routes subsidised on a seasonal basis (winter only if memory serves). They may also be getting something from the state of Wyoming, not sure. I know they fund 4 non-EAS routes, one of the only states to do so on a systematic basis, I believe.
 
Lootess
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:32 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
If you want to move to the middle of nowhere in Alaska, what right do you have to expect flights on commercial airlines?
If flying commercial airlines is important to you, live closer to a commercial airport.


Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:39 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

None of the regionals have extra pilots. For UA to take the EAS and send it back to a regional, they will have to pull some other regional flying that is almost certainly more profitable.


I think all eyes will be on PQI then to see what happens going forward.

That's the only station where UA did the EAS and sourced the flying to a regional...

Going to be interesting the next few years!

Alex


UA is keeping PQI under a 2-year contract worth $10,874,142 a year. That's a whopping $4M a year more than last time round! They've had to explain themselves. The filing (https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2000-8012-0182) makes for an interesting read! That's an open door for someone to try and undercut them next time round though.

Actually PQI isn't the only EAS contract directly bid by UA. Cody WY is the other ;)

You get to put all your costs in the EAS bid. So rising fuel and crew costs can be passed straight through.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:27 pm

Lootess wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
If you want to move to the middle of nowhere in Alaska, what right do you have to expect flights on commercial airlines?
If flying commercial airlines is important to you, live closer to a commercial airport.


Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.

You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.
 
Chuska
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:31 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:

UA is keeping PQI under a 2-year contract worth $10,874,142 a year. That's a whopping $4M a year more than last time round! They've had to explain themselves. The filing (https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2000-8012-0182) makes for an interesting read! That's an open door for someone to try and undercut them next time round though.

Actually PQI isn't the only EAS contract directly bid by UA. Cody WY is the other ;)



Regarding Cody: I actually did not know that! Interesting! I stand corrected!

PQI: This is of interest to me because I work for the company that ground handles PQI-United Ground Express, with United Airlines. I assisted in doing the station transition and was always baffled why United themselves made a bid for PQI.

I checked out the document, you're right. Some good reading there!

I also didn't realize UA just renewed the contract for PQI! PQI must be doing well enough for UA to want to stay in the market?!

Alex


Wow! That must have been interesting.

I think UA was lucky this was uncontested and that DOT is busy right now with several routes loosing carriers, either giving notice or being asked to leave. That's a stunning increase in subsidies. And this administration has shown it's not going to let carriers get away with murder. Remember how OO got stripped of PIR and ATY when DAC undercut them?

Cody is one of those routes subsidised on a seasonal basis (winter only if memory serves). They may also be getting something from the state of Wyoming, not sure. I know they fund 4 non-EAS routes, one of the only states to do so on a systematic basis, I believe.


Yes, CYS, RKS, RIW, and SHR are very lucky to have the state of Wyoming backing them up after Great Lakes got them disqualified. FMN, NM wasn't so lucky. I believe PIR was caught up in the EAS reform of 2012 as well due Great Lakes was the only carrier there at the time but somehow PIR got back on EAS. I'd like to know how that happened. That EAS reform was not a smart move, too many cities got disqualified while many others still have EAS that really shouldn't (PUB!).
 
Chuska
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:40 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Chuska wrote:
Beginning Mar 4 OO will go back to a single ORD-LWB-SHD-IAD round-trip routing. Apr 1 both LWB and SHD are each scheduled to have one nonstop to both ORD and IAD but we'll see if that changes.


I’m not very surprised about this. Did you see this anywhere online or did you just look up flights and find it randomly?

Are their any other cities you’ve seen that are doing this?


I remebered this one from the early covid days. Randomly checked it and there it was. I'll keep watching for otheres like DEN-HYS-SLN-ORD, DEN-DDC-LBL-DEN, ...
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:56 pm

Chuska wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Chuska wrote:
Beginning Mar 4 OO will go back to a single ORD-LWB-SHD-IAD round-trip routing. Apr 1 both LWB and SHD are each scheduled to have one nonstop to both ORD and IAD but we'll see if that changes.


I’m not very surprised about this. Did you see this anywhere online or did you just look up flights and find it randomly?

Are their any other cities you’ve seen that are doing this?


I remebered this one from the early covid days. Randomly checked it and there it was. I'll keep watching for otheres like DEN-HYS-SLN-ORD, DEN-DDC-LBL-DEN, ...


You had me check for CGI as they used to do CGI-PAH and onward as above...

Still not seeing Tag Flights for March or April yet...

Alex
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:42 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Lootess wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
If you want to move to the middle of nowhere in Alaska, what right do you have to expect flights on commercial airlines?
If flying commercial airlines is important to you, live closer to a commercial airport.


Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.

You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.

No one is gonna fly to Atka without subsidy lol
 
Lootess
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:58 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Lootess wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
If you want to move to the middle of nowhere in Alaska, what right do you have to expect flights on commercial airlines?
If flying commercial airlines is important to you, live closer to a commercial airport.


Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.

You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.


Yes you do, it was hell when PenAir suspended ops because of the DUT crash. Eventually AS re-transferred the authority to Ravn so scheduled service could resume even if was on DH8s.
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:00 am

superjeff wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
Of course, they are only cutting 2 flts/week.
Now they will have something like 2x MoWedThuFri, 0 Sat , 1 Sun, 1 tues or something like that. Still adequate it would seem.

Maybe route flights like Frontier in early 80s when they had 737s doing OMA LNK GRI LBF BFF DEN. Guess they got 19-20 pax avg per stop?


I can remember flying on the "River Route" in 1985 GRI-LBF-BFF-DEN on Frontier Horizon (Convair 580) and also in 1984 on Rocky Mountain Air Dash 7 (GRI-LNK-OMA), and it was like a bus. Every stop, a handful of people got off, another handful of people got on. But the planes were pretty full. And most of the passengers were connecting at either Denver or Omaha, depending on where they were headed.


Slight correction: Frontier Horizon was non-union arm flying 727-100s to SFO IAD ORD etc from DEN at the time. CVRs were flown by Combs as Frontier Commuter.
I always thought it would have been fun having 4 landings before getting to Denver. They had so many of these type of trips then.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:28 pm

Chuska wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
Cody is one of those routes subsidised on a seasonal basis (winter only if memory serves). They may also be getting something from the state of Wyoming, not sure. I know they fund 4 non-EAS routes, one of the only states to do so on a systematic basis, I believe.


Yes, CYS, RKS, RIW, and SHR are very lucky to have the state of Wyoming backing them up after Great Lakes got them disqualified. FMN, NM wasn't so lucky. I believe PIR was caught up in the EAS reform of 2012 as well due Great Lakes was the only carrier there at the time but somehow PIR got back on EAS. I'd like to know how that happened. That EAS reform was not a smart move, too many cities got disqualified while many others still have EAS that really shouldn't (PUB!).


They are. And agreed, it just highlights the absurdity of the way EAS is being managed. These 4 Wyoming communities are probably much more deserving of federal subsidies than some places that are actually eligible.

Not sure what happened at PIR. I'd hazard a guess it might be because Great Lakes never flew that route unsubsidised? It's got rates publicised over the 2012-2014 period when Great Lakes was doing unsubsidised flying that cost some many communities eligibility to EAS.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:21 pm

Lootess wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.

You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.


Yes you do, it was hell when PenAir suspended ops because of the DUT crash. Eventually AS re-transferred the authority to Ravn so scheduled service could resume even if was on DH8s.



Unalaska has never required a subsidy, so theres no docket or file to transfer. Alaska, due to political pressure, managed the DUT route as a CPA agreement with Penair. While DUT is technically an EAS subsidy eligible city, that would require Ravn to file a 90 day termination with DOT and wait for DOT to determine if they will open bids for the city or just let it sink.

The community is really wanting their Alaska codeshare, thru fares, and Mileage Plan back. No doubt about that. Ravn is now operating a Dash 8-300 in the market, which is probably THE BEST plane for the market.

However with Ravn now changing their name to NPA & 757 on property, its safe to say that Alaska may not persue a partnership agreement with 7H.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:03 am

In case anyone was curious what an EAS-only SkyWest route map would look like, this is it:

Image

And this is the map broken down by each hub:

DENVER (20):
KBTM
KWYS
KPRC
KALS
KPUB
KSUX
KDDC
KHYS
KLBL
KSLN
KJLN
KDVL
KDIK
KJMS
KEAR
KLBF
KBFF
KCNY
KVEL
KLAR

DETROIT (5):
KAPN
KESC
KIMT
KPLN
KCIU

WASHINGTON DULLES (6):
KOGS
KPBG
KJST
KSHD
KCKB
KLWB

HOUSTON BUSH (3):
KPIB
KMEI
KVCT

LOS ANGELES (1):
KPRC

MINNEAPOLIS/ST. PAUL (9):
KESC
KIMT
KCIU
KBJI
KBRD
KHIB
KINL
KABR
KRHI

CHICAGO O’HARE (16):
KFOD
KMCW
KSUX
KDEC
KSLN
KPAH
KCMX
KMKG
KCGI
KTBN
KJLN
KJST
KSHD
KCKB
KLWB
KEAU

SALT LAKE CITY (3):
KCDC
KBTM
KWYS

This is based upon the latest listings from the Essential Air Service page on Wikipedia
 
superjeff
Posts: 1529
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:10 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
superjeff wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
Of course, they are only cutting 2 flts/week.
Now they will have something like 2x MoWedThuFri, 0 Sat , 1 Sun, 1 tues or something like that. Still adequate it would seem.

Maybe route flights like Frontier in early 80s when they had 737s doing OMA LNK GRI LBF BFF DEN. Guess they got 19-20 pax avg per stop?


I can remember flying on the "River Route" in 1985 GRI-LBF-BFF-DEN on Frontier Horizon (Convair 580) and also in 1984 on Rocky Mountain Air Dash 7 (GRI-LNK-OMA), and it was like a bus. Every stop, a handful of people got off, another handful of people got on. But the planes were pretty full. And most of the passengers were connecting at either Denver or Omaha, depending on where they were headed.


Slight correction: Frontier Horizon was non-union arm flying 727-100s to SFO IAD ORD etc from DEN at the time. CVRs were flown by Combs as Frontier Commuter.
I always thought it would have been fun having 4 landings before getting to Denver. They had so many of these type of trips then.



You are correct. It was Combs. Frontier Horizon few 727-100's leased/bought from American Airlines around the west coast out of Denver.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2300
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:41 pm

superjeff wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
superjeff wrote:

I can remember flying on the "River Route" in 1985 GRI-LBF-BFF-DEN on Frontier Horizon (Convair 580) and also in 1984 on Rocky Mountain Air Dash 7 (GRI-LNK-OMA), and it was like a bus. Every stop, a handful of people got off, another handful of people got on. But the planes were pretty full. And most of the passengers were connecting at either Denver or Omaha, depending on where they were headed.


Slight correction: Frontier Horizon was non-union arm flying 727-100s to SFO IAD ORD etc from DEN at the time. CVRs were flown by Combs as Frontier Commuter.
I always thought it would have been fun having 4 landings before getting to Denver. They had so many of these type of trips then.



You are correct. It was Combs. Frontier Horizon few 727-100's leased/bought from American Airlines around the west coast out of Denver.


I also recall that Frontier Horizon flew to LGA; family came to NY to visit me just after that service began. Frontier Horizon later became the original (US) Skybus.

Just a couple of years later, I was flying for Rocky Mountain and flying the "River Run" (DEN-BFF-LBF-GRI-LNK-OMA) was a lot more enjoyable that the flights - and especially, the customers - between DEN and ASE.
 
User avatar
mga707
Posts: 718
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:59 pm

32andBelow wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Cause a lot of Alaska is not accessible by-road. Mail and other goods need to be flown in.

You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.

No one is gonna fly to Atka without subsidy lol


I realize times have changed, but I assume Reeve Aleutian did just that for nearly 50 years. Or was the state of Alaska subsidizing their long-running Aleutian and Pribilof Islands services?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:14 pm

mga707 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.

No one is gonna fly to Atka without subsidy lol


I realize times have changed, but I assume Reeve Aleutian did just that for nearly 50 years. Or was the state of Alaska subsidizing their long-running Aleutian and Pribilof Islands services?

I’m sure Reece got EAS. Why do you think they didn’t? And at the end of the day they went out of business
 
User avatar
mga707
Posts: 718
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:26 pm

32andBelow wrote:
mga707 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
No one is gonna fly to Atka without subsidy lol


I realize times have changed, but I assume Reeve Aleutian did just that for nearly 50 years. Or was the state of Alaska subsidizing their long-running Aleutian and Pribilof Islands services?

I’m sure Reece got EAS. Why do you think they didn’t? And at the end of the day they went out of business


For one thing, the EAS program did not exist for most of the time that Reeve was in business, 1946 to 2000. When did EAS start? Can't find a date, but I know it was post-dereguylation, probably in the 1980s or 90s.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:38 pm

1978. If a route can make money on it down an airline can bud zero subsidy. And some routes are like that.
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:25 am

Reece probably got a lit if subsidy for flying the mail. And perhaps to military for when they had bases along the chain. Plus charging an arm and a leg to the fishing folks as they were flush with money LOL.
 
Chuska
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:34 am

sprxUSA wrote:
Reece probably got a lit if subsidy for flying the mail. And perhaps to military for when they had bases along the chain. Plus charging an arm and a leg to the fishing folks as they were flush with money LOL.


Reeve, not Reece.
 
Chuska
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:43 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
In case anyone was curious what an EAS-only SkyWest route map would look like, this is it:

Image

This is based upon the latest listings from the Essential Air Service page on Wikipedia


Nice map! There are a couple corrections:

KCOD is listed in Wiki as United but SkyWest actually flies it, KCOD-KDEN.

Wiki lists SkyWest serving KDIK but for some reason CommutAir is doing it. (???)

SkyWest also flies KEAR-KORD (not listed in Wiki). I thought SkyWest dropped all extra flying at EAS stations but this route still exists.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2497
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:01 am

usxguy wrote:
Lootess wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
You don't need a EAS subsidized scheduled airline to do that.


Yes you do, it was hell when PenAir suspended ops because of the DUT crash. Eventually AS re-transferred the authority to Ravn so scheduled service could resume even if was on DH8s.



Unalaska has never required a subsidy, so theres no docket or file to transfer. Alaska, due to political pressure, managed the DUT route as a CPA agreement with Penair. While DUT is technically an EAS subsidy eligible city, that would require Ravn to file a 90 day termination with DOT and wait for DOT to determine if they will open bids for the city or just let it sink.

The community is really wanting their Alaska codeshare, thru fares, and Mileage Plan back. No doubt about that. Ravn is now operating a Dash 8-300 in the market, which is probably THE BEST plane for the market.

However with Ravn now changing their name to NPA & 757 on property, its safe to say that Alaska may not persue a partnership agreement with 7H.

Sterling out of Jacksonville is supposed to take over Dutch in cooperation with Alaska Central and Alaska. But there is an issue getting the 2000’s recertification for DUT, I think the insurance is now requiring special training.

S2000 is about the only modern turbo prop that can take a full load to DUT and back to ANC if they can’t get in, without having Cold Bay also be useable as an alternate.
 
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mga707
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:09 am

Chuska wrote:
Reeve, not Reece.


They were legendary, flying reliably to one of the areas with the worst weather on Earth for nearly 55 years. I have their history, "Flying Beats Work" (1988, long out of print). Loved their timetables and OAG schedules, with flights starting at ANC in the early AM and hopping out the chain, some all the way to Shemya and Attu. The ANC departure would be the only one with a time listed, all subsequent stops marked 'F' (Flag Stop) and/or 'V' (arrival/departure times variable).
In the '90s 'plane geeks' would fly them just to get an Electra ride--wish I had done so before they shut down in 2000.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:53 am

mga707 wrote:
Chuska wrote:
Reeve, not Reece.


They were legendary, flying reliably to one of the areas with the worst weather on Earth for nearly 55 years. I have their history, "Flying Beats Work" (1988, long out of print). Loved their timetables and OAG schedules, with flights starting at ANC in the early AM and hopping out the chain, some all the way to Shemya and Attu. The ANC departure would be the only one with a time listed, all subsequent stops marked 'F' (Flag Stop) and/or 'V' (arrival/departure times variable).
In the '90s 'plane geeks' would fly them just to get an Electra ride--wish I had done so before they shut down in 2000.

Back then there were active military bases in Adak and attu
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:53 am

Chuska wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
In case anyone was curious what an EAS-only SkyWest route map would look like, this is it:

Image

This is based upon the latest listings from the Essential Air Service page on Wikipedia


Nice map! There are a couple corrections:

KCOD is listed in Wiki as United but SkyWest actually flies it, KCOD-KDEN.

Wiki lists SkyWest serving KDIK but for some reason CommutAir is doing it. (???)

SkyWest also flies KEAR-KORD (not listed in Wiki). I thought SkyWest dropped all extra flying at EAS stations but this route still exists.


Not sure about DIK, but the subsidy for Cody is held by United. COD is therefore a CPA station for SkyWest, not an at-risk EAS market like the other cities on the map.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 9512
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:53 am

Chuska wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
In case anyone was curious what an EAS-only SkyWest route map would look like, this is it:

Image

This is based upon the latest listings from the Essential Air Service page on Wikipedia


Nice map! There are a couple corrections:

KCOD is listed in Wiki as United but SkyWest actually flies it, KCOD-KDEN.

Wiki lists SkyWest serving KDIK but for some reason CommutAir is doing it. (???)

SkyWest also flies KEAR-KORD (not listed in Wiki). I thought SkyWest dropped all extra flying at EAS stations but this route still exists.


Not sure about DIK, but the subsidy for Cody is held by United. COD is therefore a CPA station for SkyWest, not an at-risk EAS market like the other cities on the map.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 577
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:06 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Chuska wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
In case anyone was curious what an EAS-only SkyWest route map would look like, this is it:

Image

This is based upon the latest listings from the Essential Air Service page on Wikipedia


Nice map! There are a couple corrections:

KCOD is listed in Wiki as United but SkyWest actually flies it, KCOD-KDEN.

Wiki lists SkyWest serving KDIK but for some reason CommutAir is doing it. (???)

SkyWest also flies KEAR-KORD (not listed in Wiki). I thought SkyWest dropped all extra flying at EAS stations but this route still exists.


Not sure about DIK, but the subsidy for Cody is held by United. COD is therefore a CPA station for SkyWest, not an at-risk EAS market like the other cities on the map.


Interesting! There are a few EAS markets held by American as well, though those are operated by other regional carriers. I wonder if cities like HIB with a Delta or United presence (HIB might be the only one with a corporate presence though, they have a DL call center) would become an EAS market retained by DL/UA like the American ones are.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:06 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Chuska wrote:

Nice map! There are a couple corrections:

KCOD is listed in Wiki as United but SkyWest actually flies it, KCOD-KDEN.

Wiki lists SkyWest serving KDIK but for some reason CommutAir is doing it. (???)

SkyWest also flies KEAR-KORD (not listed in Wiki). I thought SkyWest dropped all extra flying at EAS stations but this route still exists.


Not sure about DIK, but the subsidy for Cody is held by United. COD is therefore a CPA station for SkyWest, not an at-risk EAS market like the other cities on the map.


Interesting! There are a few EAS markets held by American as well, though those are operated by other regional carriers. I wonder if cities like HIB with a Delta or United presence (HIB might be the only one with a corporate presence though, they have a DL call center) would become an EAS market retained by DL/UA like the American ones are.


UA holds 2 contracts directly: Cody WY (winter seasonal, it's flown without subsidies in the summer peak) and Presque Isle ME

AA holds 4 contracts: Watertown NY, Waterloo IA, Grand Island NE and Garden City KS. All are operated by Envoy, except Watertown which is operated by Piedmont.
 
sea13
Posts: 219
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:22 pm

How are airports such as WYS and BTM able to have routes to both SLC abs DEN and still be under the EAS allowance rules?
 
drdisque
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:01 pm

sea13 wrote:
How are airports such as WYS and BTM able to have routes to both SLC abs DEN and still be under the EAS allowance rules?


There's no prohibition on the proposal including service to two airports. In fact many EAS airports have multiple destinations.

The unusual thing is that OO offers service with two different brands to WYS and BTM, making it seem like there are competing carriers.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 6024
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:30 am

sea13 wrote:
How are airports such as WYS and BTM able to have routes to both SLC abs DEN and still be under the EAS allowance rules?


If they go to two airports usually the total flights are the same. But instead of being for example 24 to one airport it’s 12 each to 2 or 18 to one and 6 to the other. Depends on the contract make up.
 
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knope2001
Topic Author
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Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:49 pm

Skywest submitted a bid for HIbbing on 2/17/2022, suggesting they are not planning a wholesale drawdown of their EAS flying.


https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... 15796-0088


Something which initially raised an eyebrow was this statement:

All flights are subject to gate availability and don’t have up line scheduling restrictions.

That's because typically the Skywest proposals say this:

All flights are subject to gate availability and up line scheduling restrictions.

Generally, though I've seen it played loosely over the years, airlines are to be upfront in their EAS bids if they flights will have an intermediate stop or originate upline. So seeing this one say they don't have any upline restrictions suggests they changed this deliberately in preparation for flying more one-stop routings such as INL-HIB-MSP rather than INL-MSP and HIB-MSP. However...looking back at older submissions I do see that the "don't have upline scheduling restrictions" has been used by Skywest over the years in some proposals. That includes the Bemidji and Aberdeen proposal from 2019 below.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0137-0043

So apparently it is *not* some new wrinkle in their EAS bids.

My own speculation on Skywest EAS flying is this:
--Though only tiny fraction of their company, it's been successful profit generator for dozens of undesirable surplus RJ's.
--The lack of surplus pilots puts the squeeze on Skywest but they intend to continue the program as best they can in hopes of the situation improving.

Skywest's EAS abandonment of Plattsburgh and Ogdensburg are likely due to those markets being all-Dulles where Skywest does not have a crew base or do much UA* flying. It makes more sense to consolidate limited resources (pilots) and the less deadheading and outstation overnights the better, something those orphan IAD markets almost certainly needed. The remaining Dulles EAS markets also have flights to O'Hare so it's easier to "fund" those IAD flights with ORD-based crews.

It's certainly possible Skywest is planning to scale back EAS and not re-bid some of the smaller or far-flung EAS markets, but HIB is kind of a medium-ish one and they are choosing not to pass on the bid. It will be interesting to see if that holds true or if they will let some go when the time comes.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:08 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Skywest submitted a bid for HIbbing on 2/17/2022, suggesting they are not planning a wholesale drawdown of their EAS flying.


https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... 15796-0088


Something which initially raised an eyebrow was this statement:

All flights are subject to gate availability and don’t have up line scheduling restrictions.

That's because typically the Skywest proposals say this:

All flights are subject to gate availability and up line scheduling restrictions.

Generally, though I've seen it played loosely over the years, airlines are to be upfront in their EAS bids if they flights will have an intermediate stop or originate upline. So seeing this one say they don't have any upline restrictions suggests they changed this deliberately in preparation for flying more one-stop routings such as INL-HIB-MSP rather than INL-MSP and HIB-MSP. However...looking back at older submissions I do see that the "don't have upline scheduling restrictions" has been used by Skywest over the years in some proposals. That includes the Bemidji and Aberdeen proposal from 2019 below.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0137-0043

So apparently it is *not* some new wrinkle in their EAS bids.

My own speculation on Skywest EAS flying is this:
--Though only tiny fraction of their company, it's been successful profit generator for dozens of undesirable surplus RJ's.
--The lack of surplus pilots puts the squeeze on Skywest but they intend to continue the program as best they can in hopes of the situation improving.

Skywest's EAS abandonment of Plattsburgh and Ogdensburg are likely due to those markets being all-Dulles where Skywest does not have a crew base or do much UA* flying. It makes more sense to consolidate limited resources (pilots) and the less deadheading and outstation overnights the better, something those orphan IAD markets almost certainly needed. The remaining Dulles EAS markets also have flights to O'Hare so it's easier to "fund" those IAD flights with ORD-based crews.

It's certainly possible Skywest is planning to scale back EAS and not re-bid some of the smaller or far-flung EAS markets, but HIB is kind of a medium-ish one and they are choosing not to pass on the bid. It will be interesting to see if that holds true or if they will let some go when the time comes.


DOT has sent out a Proposal for Alamosa, CO, a SkyWest station that was part of the Service Reduction.

This is what we will need to eye to see if SkyWest is truly cutting back on EAS Bids or not.

Regulation.gov is not loading so I am unable to pull the docket at this moment of the post.

Alex
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:31 pm

These towns would be so dumb to get caught up over frequency and not keeping a 1X jet with a Major airline code
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:41 pm

32andBelow wrote:
These towns would be so dumb to get caught up over frequency and not keeping a 1X jet with a Major airline code


This is exactly why MWA-Marion, Illinois voted Cape Air in 2019 over SkyWest.

They agreed that SkyWest and being able to bring United Airlines to Marion would be great, and jet service.

However they spoke to CGI and PAH, and compared the service, and didn't like that if the flight canceled, the passengers were stuck without other flight options.

Cape Air was offering 6 flights a day and two cities with an American Airlines Codeshare. So at least for Cape Air, MWA got an American Airlines Codeshare, over a United Codeshare.

So MWA went with Frequency (6 Flights AND a Major Airline Codeshare).

Alex
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:50 am

atrude777 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
These towns would be so dumb to get caught up over frequency and not keeping a 1X jet with a Major airline code


This is exactly why MWA-Marion, Illinois voted Cape Air in 2019 over SkyWest.

They agreed that SkyWest and being able to bring United Airlines to Marion would be great, and jet service.

However they spoke to CGI and PAH, and compared the service, and didn't like that if the flight canceled, the passengers were stuck without other flight options.

Cape Air was offering 6 flights a day and two cities with an American Airlines Codeshare. So at least for Cape Air, MWA got an American Airlines Codeshare, over a United Codeshare.

So MWA went with Frequency (6 Flights AND a Major Airline Codeshare).

Alex

cape are at least has code shares. Some of those other operators like boutique all you get is an interline idea you’re lucky
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 20, 2022 11:20 am

32andBelow wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
These towns would be so dumb to get caught up over frequency and not keeping a 1X jet with a Major airline code


This is exactly why MWA-Marion, Illinois voted Cape Air in 2019 over SkyWest.

They agreed that SkyWest and being able to bring United Airlines to Marion would be great, and jet service.

However they spoke to CGI and PAH, and compared the service, and didn't like that if the flight canceled, the passengers were stuck without other flight options.

Cape Air was offering 6 flights a day and two cities with an American Airlines Codeshare. So at least for Cape Air, MWA got an American Airlines Codeshare, over a United Codeshare.

So MWA went with Frequency (6 Flights AND a Major Airline Codeshare).

Alex

cape are at least has code shares. Some of those other operators like boutique all you get is an interline idea you’re lucky


You probably want to avoid a Billy-no-mate like Air Choice One, but I'm not sure a codeshare brings that much more than an interline in an EAS context. Except for frequent fliers as you can earn and burn on these flights. Is it a demographic that is significant enough in these small towns, I'm not so sure. Cape Air is pretty unique in that they do a significant amount on non-EAS at risk flying where the ability to tap into legacies' ff bases makes a big difference.

And that codeshare can bring a price premium too. If you look at Boutique for example, which codeshares with UA but interlines with AA, you sure as hell are paying extra for that codeshare. Comparable itineraries on AA are nearly always cheaper, sometimes significantly so. Probably less relevant to OO, but nonetheless.

I'd say operational reliability is probably far more important.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4782
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:49 pm

https://ruralradio.com/kneb-am/news/sli ... -in-march/

Article mentioning the reduction from 12 to 10 Weekly for Scottsbluff, Nebraska.

Something of interest from the article...
Aguallo says we are still their fastest growing market in the EAS program nationwide so it has nothing to do with our local performance, but more to do with that fact that we are within 200 miles from Denver and easiest to remove a flight from.

He says the airport will be going out for bids again this year for their Essential Air Service Contracts, and anticipates that SkyWest will again bid for the contract.


Unsure if they have already spoken to SkyWest and got word OO intends to rebid...

In addition news is out for Cape Girardeau, Missouri too-CGI

https://www.kfvs12.com/2022/02/11/fligh ... u-airport/

“We don’t anticipate this going beyond 6 months. I think for the next couple of months were going to monitor and hopefully we can get back to normal. This is an attempt to make sure we have reliable service without cancellations.”

Sounds like this may last for 2 months, hopefully not more then 6 months. CGI was just renewed, and currently has the contract with SkyWest for 3 years.

Alex
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6433
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:20 pm

Agreeing to triangle routings can also get you more daily flights but many don’t like doing this. 12 seems like a sweet spot.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2497
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Skywest reducing frequency in 18 EAS markets

Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:36 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Agreeing to triangle routings can also get you more daily flights but many don’t like doing this. 12 seems like a sweet spot.

In the past, tag flights had short ground times at the mid stations.

10 minutes for 19 seaters, with the right engine running, 15 minutes for the 30 seaters, etc.

Now you see these intermediate stops scheduled at 30 minutes, 45, or even longer.

I think that is due to hub congestion and ATC slotting, but a planner could give a better explanation than I can.
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