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qf789
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Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:07 am

At today’s half year results Qantas says it will firm up an order for A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by the middle of this year with deliveries in 2025.

Previously Qantas had announced their plan to buy A350-1000’s to operate flights such as SYD-JFK and SYD/MEL-LHR however due to the pandemic the Project was put on hold.

Also suggests PER-LHR will be upgraded to A350’s as well

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/qan ... non-stops/
 
Scotron12
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:41 am

A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:05 am

Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


A capacity jump would, IMO, make little sense unless they go less than daily. After all they would likely be losing most East Coast traffic.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:26 am

NTLDaz wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


A capacity jump would, IMO, make little sense unless they go less than daily. After all they would likely be losing most East Coast traffic.


?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:35 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


A capacity jump would, IMO, make little sense unless they go less than daily. After all they would likely be losing most East Coast traffic.


?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.


Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:02 am

NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

A capacity jump would, IMO, make little sense unless they go less than daily. After all they would likely be losing most East Coast traffic.


?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.


Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.


QF said something like 75% or a similar number of PAX originate in PER on the PER-LHR flight, that would be 170/180 pax per flight, the A351 in a 4 class configuration will seat 260/280 I would think, it’s not a huge capacity jump.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:15 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.


Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.


QF said something like 75% or a similar number of PAX originate in PER on the PER-LHR flight, that would be 170/180 pax per flight, the A351 in a 4 class configuration will seat 260/280 I would think, it’s not a huge capacity jump.


What does the 787 hold - 236 ? Also putting in F - does Perth need F ? Maybe they'll put an A350 on Perth but it makes no sense to me. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that Qantas have said they'll be using a PS aircraft out of Perth.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:23 am

NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.


QF said something like 75% or a similar number of PAX originate in PER on the PER-LHR flight, that would be 170/180 pax per flight, the A351 in a 4 class configuration will seat 260/280 I would think, it’s not a huge capacity jump.


What does the 787 hold - 236 ? Also putting in F - does Perth need F ? Maybe they'll put an A350 on Perth but it makes no sense to me. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that Qantas have said they'll be using a PS aircraft out of Perth.


236 yes on the 789, F on the A351 will be what between 4-8 seats? Does PER need F, who knows but QF may also want to have all 1 type to LHR? 2 while the A380 is around and 3 if PER stays 789, I could see PER going A350 as that fleet grows. The article in the thread started mentions the A350 on PER-LHR but the source is doubted it seems.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:27 am

Has the a350 the leg? Will be modified heavily?
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:29 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

QF said something like 75% or a similar number of PAX originate in PER on the PER-LHR flight, that would be 170/180 pax per flight, the A351 in a 4 class configuration will seat 260/280 I would think, it’s not a huge capacity jump.


What does the 787 hold - 236 ? Also putting in F - does Perth need F ? Maybe they'll put an A350 on Perth but it makes no sense to me. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that Qantas have said they'll be using a PS aircraft out of Perth.


236 yes on the 789, F on the A351 will be what between 4-8 seats? Does PER need F, who knows but QF may also want to have all 1 type to LHR? 2 while the A380 is around and 3 if PER stays 789, I could see PER going A350 as that fleet grows. The article in the thread started mentions the A350 on PER-LHR but the source is doubted it seems.


I guess we'll know more when they make an order. SYD / MEL - JFK as well as SYD / MEL - LHR will be the priority. How many frames will that require ?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:32 am

NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

What does the 787 hold - 236 ? Also putting in F - does Perth need F ? Maybe they'll put an A350 on Perth but it makes no sense to me. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that Qantas have said they'll be using a PS aircraft out of Perth.


236 yes on the 789, F on the A351 will be what between 4-8 seats? Does PER need F, who knows but QF may also want to have all 1 type to LHR? 2 while the A380 is around and 3 if PER stays 789, I could see PER going A350 as that fleet grows. The article in the thread started mentions the A350 on PER-LHR but the source is doubted it seems.


I guess we'll know more when they make an order. SYD / MEL - JFK as well as SYD / MEL - LHR will be the priority. How many frames will that require ?


Those routes would use at least 9 frames, possibly 10 depending on how they schedule the LHR rotations, assuming all are daily.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:11 am

Great to hear. This plane is going to make Qantas a lot of money. I wonder how many A350-1000nonULRs will end up in the Qantas fleet as well.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:21 am

zkojq wrote:
Great to hear. This plane is going to make Qantas a lot of money. I wonder how many A350-1000nonULRs will end up in the Qantas fleet as well.


QF have in the past said they want an aircraft that can do SYD-LHR one day and SYD-HKG the next, I’m not convinced they will have more than 1 configuration. They could have a reasonably sizeable fleet given it is likely these aircraft will replace the A380s as well.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:31 am

NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

A capacity jump would, IMO, make little sense unless they go less than daily. After all they would likely be losing most East Coast traffic.


?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.


Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.


Unless the tickets are cheap, there is no logical reason to go via PER if there are direct flights from MEL.
 
behramjee
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:29 am

qf789 wrote:
At today’s half year results Qantas says it will firm up an order for A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by the middle of this year with deliveries in 2025.

Previously Qantas had announced their plan to buy A350-1000’s to operate flights such as SYD-JFK and SYD/MEL-LHR however due to the pandemic the Project was put on hold.

Also suggests PER-LHR will be upgraded to A350’s as well

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/qan ... non-stops/


Mid year firming up clearly hints at Farnborough Air show announcement in July as that should generate maximum PR.

Will definitely be interesting to see the final cabin configuration of these A351-ULRs. If these aircraft end up performing what QF actually wants it to do, I would then not be surprised to see airlines such as EK TK CX SQ BA down the road get a few too.
 
a320fan
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:41 am

The a350 was chosen after a very long and detailed tender to be the Sunrise aircraft. As far as we know that has not changed and the project has not gone back to tender.

However, the author of this article has no standing as a reputable source and constantly writes of some strange fantasy world he seems to live in. According to one of his articles VA was going to buy 77Ls to fly to smaller American cities such as SFO, LAS and SEA. Per will not be a sunrise route or A350, at least not as part of the initial order. QF seem to have no issues with the 789 on that route and it’s smaller in traffic volume than the East. General consensus is it’s likely to become a BNE-PER-LHR flow, though as a BNE passenger PER would feel out of the way for Europe, surely.
 
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Polot
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:46 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

?? I don’t follow. Why would they go less than daily? There would still be plenty of East coast traffic, not to mention PER originating traffic. QF have also in the past said they would keep SIN-LHR, weather they do or not will be interesting to see.


Given PS will give non stop from both SYD and MEL I suspect this would reduce the East Coast traffic via Perth. Pre Covid you had QF1 SYD to LHR via SIN and QF9 MEL via PER. The MEL-PER leg wouldn't exist any more. Why would you need extra capacity on PER - LHR ? Especially when we know the 787 does the trip easily.


QF said something like 75% or a similar number of PAX originate in PER on the PER-LHR flight, that would be 170/180 pax per flight, the A351 in a 4 class configuration will seat 260/280 I would think, it’s not a huge capacity jump.

That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:27 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Has the a350 the leg? Will be modified heavily?


The A350 has the legs, the longest of any frame offered today. Boeing was offering the 777-8.
 
SYD330
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:54 pm

They will have to acquire some Goldhofer AST-2X tractors to do the towing
 
smi0006
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:25 pm

I think the key here - LHR in particular is the holy yield grail for QF, they have lost a huge amount of this traffic to ME3 and Asian carriers over the years. Their product couldn’t compete with SQ,EK,QR. What that can beat them on is time and non-stop. Highly unlikely VS, or BA would compete, and no one else legally can.

These routes are about stealing high yield pax back from those carriers, and retaining the high yield they currently have - not converting the majority current traffic to non-stop. What happens when the 380 is retired will be interesting!

QF have four LHR slots, wouldn’t surprise me if they keep them all;
SYD-LHR 350
MEL-LHR 350
SYD-SIN-LHR 380
PER-LHR 789 (doesn’t matter which city it starts in)

Leaves us with
SYD-JFK 350
SYD-ORD 350

With some Asian flying to fill out the utilisation.
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:46 pm

They may not fill the A350 today from Perth but they will fill it tomorrow.

The flight has been incredibly popular over here and most people who have taken it rave about it.

Personally I wouldn’t take any other flight now. The extra time and hassle ain’t worth the difference in price. Get me on and there!

Joyce said a long time ago that the route could grow into a bigger aircraft.

Can’t wait to see non stops from SYD MEL and PER side by side in London. Will truly be an amazing sight and engineering marvel. From weeks at sea to 20 hours in the air. Amazing.
 
ahj2000
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:47 pm

smi0006 wrote:
I think the key here - LHR in particular is the holy yield grail for QF, they have lost a huge amount of this traffic to ME3 and Asian carriers over the years. Their product couldn’t compete with SQ,EK,QR. What that can beat them on is time and non-stop. Highly unlikely VS, or BA would compete, and no one else legally can.

These routes are about stealing high yield pax back from those carriers, and retaining the high yield they currently have - not converting the majority current traffic to non-stop. What happens when the 380 is retired will be interesting!

QF have four LHR slots, wouldn’t surprise me if they keep them all;
SYD-LHR 350
MEL-LHR 350
SYD-SIN-LHR 380
PER-LHR 789 (doesn’t matter which city it starts in)

Leaves us with
SYD-JFK 350
SYD-ORD 350

With some Asian flying to fill out the utilisation.

And it wouldn’t surprise me if QF tried it’s hardest to get more slots at LHR, regardless of cost. To them, they can recoup the costs later. It may be worth the initial fees to build to 6-8 slots with nonstop/the preferred over SIN routings, where they can make beaucoup bucks.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:02 pm

Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:22 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.

You're right, Unless the PER option was discounted, there would be no reason to go via PER particularly as the SIN option will probably be quicker or just as quick and the non-stop much faster. I assume QF will make the current QF9 route BNE-PER-LHR to maintain a viable load even though for a BNE resident connecting in SIN or DXB will probably remain a quicker option.

What is certain is that QF will dedicate its best slots to the non-stops from MEL and SYD. This will mean a morning arrival and late afternoon arrival will be given to MEL and SYD. QF has a total of 4 slots available to it once it reclaims its currently leased two. The flights from PER and SIN will be given slots that they consider least attractive.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:39 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.
 
Somerandom787
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:18 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.


Or they may keep the A380 on SYD-SIN-LHR alongside the PS flights as a cheaper option for Perth, Sydney, and Melbourne travelers and as an alternative for Brisbane travelers (where Brisbane travelers can take the A330 to SIN before going on the A380 to LHR)

Or QF could do what I said above plus start the Perth-London flight in Adelaide instead of Melbourne or Brisbane (though I would seriously doubt QF starting long haul ops out of Adelaide)
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:51 am

Somerandom787 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.


Or they may keep the A380 on SYD-SIN-LHR alongside the PS flights as a cheaper option for Perth, Sydney, and Melbourne travelers and as an alternative for Brisbane travelers (where Brisbane travelers can take the A330 to SIN before going on the A380 to LHR)

Or QF could do what I said above plus start the Perth-London flight in Adelaide instead of Melbourne or Brisbane (though I would seriously doubt QF starting long haul ops out of Adelaide)


Unless they have some wild plans to launch the US from ADL I can't see how starting QF9 there would work.
 
Somerandom787
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:52 am

NTLDaz wrote:
Somerandom787 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.


Or they may keep the A380 on SYD-SIN-LHR alongside the PS flights as a cheaper option for Perth, Sydney, and Melbourne travelers and as an alternative for Brisbane travelers (where Brisbane travelers can take the A330 to SIN before going on the A380 to LHR)

Or QF could do what I said above plus start the Perth-London flight in Adelaide instead of Melbourne or Brisbane (though I would seriously doubt QF starting long haul ops out of Adelaide)


Unless they have some wild plans to launch the US from ADL I can't see how starting QF9 there would work.


I do agree that the chances of it starting in Adelaide are virtually nonexistent
 
tullamarine
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:53 am

Somerandom787 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.


Or they may keep the A380 on SYD-SIN-LHR alongside the PS flights as a cheaper option for Perth, Sydney, and Melbourne travelers and as an alternative for Brisbane travelers (where Brisbane travelers can take the A330 to SIN before going on the A380 to LHR)

Or QF could do what I said above plus start the Perth-London flight in Adelaide instead of Melbourne or Brisbane (though I would seriously doubt QF starting long haul ops out of Adelaide)

Starting the flight in MEL or BNE enables the fleet to be rotated and processed through maintenance as required. As ADL has no other 787 services and no 787 maintenance facilities, it is problematic starting any LH route from there.
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:52 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.

BNE-PER-LHR would obviously provide QF with East Coast-LHR flights from the three major ports, but for BNE travellers going to cities other than LHR, the BNE-PER/SYD/MEL-LHR options becomes two stops to Europe rather than one on a competitor via SIN/DOH/DXB.

PER/SYD/MEL-LHR is really only attractive for travellers who need to connect (from regional areas and cities without a competitor) or those who have PER/SYD/MEL as their home airport.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:04 am

BNEFlyer wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.

BNE-PER-LHR would obviously provide QF with East Coast-LHR flights from the three major ports, but for BNE travellers going to cities other than LHR, the BNE-PER/SYD/MEL-LHR options becomes two stops to Europe rather than one on a competitor via SIN/DOH/DXB.

PER/SYD/MEL-LHR is really only attractive for travellers who need to connect (from regional areas and cities without a competitor) or those who have PER/SYD/MEL as their home airport.


That's exactly the same now . If you want to fly to Europe on Qantas you were always looking at 2 stops unless going to London. Where it might get interesting is if ( eventually) there are more flights to continental Europe from Perth - like the PER - FCO flights.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3494
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:25 am

NTLDaz wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

QF will probably still want to rotate the 789s between PER and the East Coast, so highly tipping it becomes BNE-PER-LHR & v.v. This despite SIN (and ME stopovers) being a more popular option towards BNE/Queensland flyers.

BNE-PER-LHR would obviously provide QF with East Coast-LHR flights from the three major ports, but for BNE travellers going to cities other than LHR, the BNE-PER/SYD/MEL-LHR options becomes two stops to Europe rather than one on a competitor via SIN/DOH/DXB.

PER/SYD/MEL-LHR is really only attractive for travellers who need to connect (from regional areas and cities without a competitor) or those who have PER/SYD/MEL as their home airport.


That's exactly the same now . If you want to fly to Europe on Qantas you were always looking at 2 stops unless going to London. Where it might get interesting is if ( eventually) there are more flights to continental Europe from Perth - like the PER - FCO flights.

That is the exact reason the EK alliance came into being. It enabled QF to offer one-stop to just about everywhere in Europe from all mainland state capitals with typically good connection times in DXB due to the timing of EK's hub banks.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:51 am

tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:
BNE-PER-LHR would obviously provide QF with East Coast-LHR flights from the three major ports, but for BNE travellers going to cities other than LHR, the BNE-PER/SYD/MEL-LHR options becomes two stops to Europe rather than one on a competitor via SIN/DOH/DXB.

PER/SYD/MEL-LHR is really only attractive for travellers who need to connect (from regional areas and cities without a competitor) or those who have PER/SYD/MEL as their home airport.


That's exactly the same now . If you want to fly to Europe on Qantas you were always looking at 2 stops unless going to London. Where it might get interesting is if ( eventually) there are more flights to continental Europe from Perth - like the PER - FCO flights.

That is the exact reason the EK alliance came into being. It enabled QF to offer one-stop to just about everywhere in Europe from all mainland state capitals with typically good connection times in DXB due to the timing of EK's hub banks.


Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3494
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:41 am

NTLDaz wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

That's exactly the same now . If you want to fly to Europe on Qantas you were always looking at 2 stops unless going to London. Where it might get interesting is if ( eventually) there are more flights to continental Europe from Perth - like the PER - FCO flights.

That is the exact reason the EK alliance came into being. It enabled QF to offer one-stop to just about everywhere in Europe from all mainland state capitals with typically good connection times in DXB due to the timing of EK's hub banks.


Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.

Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 883
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:45 am

tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
That is the exact reason the EK alliance came into being. It enabled QF to offer one-stop to just about everywhere in Europe from all mainland state capitals with typically good connection times in DXB due to the timing of EK's hub banks.


Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.

Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.


Agree, even outside of LHR where would QF fly non stop that could fill an A350.

Places like CDG and FRA would seem better served on 787s which cant make it from the east coast anyway.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:51 am

tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
That is the exact reason the EK alliance came into being. It enabled QF to offer one-stop to just about everywhere in Europe from all mainland state capitals with typically good connection times in DXB due to the timing of EK's hub banks.


Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.

Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.


Yep - last 2 times on EK I flew into LIS and out of BCN and before that into PRG and out of MUC. You just can't beat the ME airlines for 1 stop convenience.

But ' if ' QF can do LHR, CDG, FCO and FRA they'll cover a lot of ground for where many want to go. If TK ever do a non stop from SYD / MEL to IST that would shake things up a bit.
 
smi0006
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:12 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.

Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.


Agree, even outside of LHR where would QF fly non stop that could fill an A350.

Places like CDG and FRA would seem better served on 787s which cant make it from the east coast anyway.


I don’t think it really matters where the PER-LHR 789 is actually rotated in from, it will only be for marketing once scale ex-PER is built. No one flying EK to LHR cares that their 380 from SYD doesn’t go on to LHR, that it’s a different 380 having arrived from BKK or somewhere.

I’m sure we’ll eventually see;
PER -LHR,FCO,CDG,JNB, maybe CPT, DEL, FRA?
All with 789/330 connections, flight numbers and aircraft originating in BNE/SYD/MEL, even AKL. Pax will book according to FF loyalty, price, availability and other preferences.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3494
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:25 am

NTLDaz wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

Of course but some people want to fly on Qantas and some certainly don't want to go through Dubai. Personally, my last 2 trips to Europe have been on EK with a QF issued ticket.

Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.


Yep - last 2 times on EK I flew into LIS and out of BCN and before that into PRG and out of MUC. You just can't beat the ME airlines for 1 stop convenience.

But ' if ' QF can do LHR, CDG, FCO and FRA they'll cover a lot of ground for where many want to go. If TK ever do a non stop from SYD / MEL to IST that would shake things up a bit.

Even if QF do fly to the ports you listed, Oneworld does not have a hub in central Europe which is dominated by Star. Even if you could do a non-stop to FRA (from PER), if you were heading to MUC,GVA, ZRH etc there is no seamless connection recognising status available to you and you'd be better served going via DXB on EK.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:43 am

tullamarine wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Yes, but realistically QF will never serve more than 2 or 3 ports within continental Europe. EK does just about everywhere. I have used them a number of times with a QF flight number taking me to ports such as AMS, IST and WAW. On QF metal, I would have had to overfly Europe to LHR then backtrack on BA with associated increase in both time and cost. EK's service was great with the longest connection time in DXB 4 hours and the shortest 50 minutes.


Yep - last 2 times on EK I flew into LIS and out of BCN and before that into PRG and out of MUC. You just can't beat the ME airlines for 1 stop convenience.

But ' if ' QF can do LHR, CDG, FCO and FRA they'll cover a lot of ground for where many want to go. If TK ever do a non stop from SYD / MEL to IST that would shake things up a bit.

Even if QF do fly to the ports you listed, Oneworld does not have a hub in central Europe which is dominated by Star. Even if you could do a non-stop to FRA (from PER), if you were heading to MUC,GVA, ZRH etc there is no seamless connection recognising status available to you and you'd be better served going via DXB on EK.


And that's what I'd do but I'm not one of those people who really want to fly QF ( for whatever reason ). I know heaps of people who take QF to LHR then backtrack on BA - makes no sense to me but they do it.

I'm happy flying EK on a QF flight number because I get my points and status credits. I suspect most people at the back of the plane ( where I travel ) care too much about that though.

QF could also do a deal with the rail companies for seamless transfers to many places - off the plane in CDG and on to a TGV for example.

The success or otherwise of these FCO flights will be instructive.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:45 am

So with the likely closer of Russian airspace for the foreseeable future, would the 350 still have the range flying via the Middle East to do SYD/MEL-LHR, with a viable payload ?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4647
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:59 am

LTEN11 wrote:
So with the likely closer of Russian airspace for the foreseeable future, would the 350 still have the range flying via the Middle East to do SYD/MEL-LHR, with a viable payload ?

I would think so, my understanding is that the biggest challenge of al the routes is SYD-LHR, avoiding Russia to the south adds about 3% on but on the really challenging days the route would likely go east of Russia anyway and over Alaska and drop in to LHR from the north.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
LTEN11
Posts: 530
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:21 am

flipdewaf wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
So with the likely closer of Russian airspace for the foreseeable future, would the 350 still have the range flying via the Middle East to do SYD/MEL-LHR, with a viable payload ?

I would think so, my understanding is that the biggest challenge of al the routes is SYD-LHR, avoiding Russia to the south adds about 3% on but on the really challenging days the route would likely go east of Russia anyway and over Alaska and drop in to LHR from the north.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's around a 1000nm further, they'd have to be some pretty favourable conditions.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4647
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Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:45 am

LTEN11 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
So with the likely closer of Russian airspace for the foreseeable future, would the 350 still have the range flying via the Middle East to do SYD/MEL-LHR, with a viable payload ?

I would think so, my understanding is that the biggest challenge of al the routes is SYD-LHR, avoiding Russia to the south adds about 3% on but on the really challenging days the route would likely go east of Russia anyway and over Alaska and drop in to LHR from the north.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's around a 1000nm further, they'd have to be some pretty favourable conditions.

Yes, when I run the numbers it looks like you need to catch a 35kt tailwind to be within the expected range of the sunrise aircraft to go over ANC. I don’t know what the wind is like over the pacific.

So under a 5kt wind going east is ok, over 35 going west is ok, between them it’s a challenge. Of course the world isn’t quite as neat as that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Qf648
Posts: 99
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:59 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s 30 to 50 more seats total over the 789, and likely a large number of additional premium seats that would need to be filled. Nonstops from MEL/SYD to LHR will hurt premium demand on PER-LHR the most, as those are the passengers most likely to favor the nonstop over connecting at PER.


Let's be clear - the only reason for people from the east to stopover in PER is that the current aircarft cannot fly direct to LHR. Once there are direct flights from MEL (and SYD) demand on PER-LHR will be fundamentally O&D from PER, with perhaps a trickle from ADL.


Not a hope in hell regarding Adelaide. Given the choice of 3 hours to Perth to get QF9 or Melbourne to get a direct flight I’ll go to Melbourne thanks.

So much easier doing customs out of Melbourne of Sydney too. Customs in Adelaide is slow and sucks as does Perth.

QF will not do any international from Adelaide until the XLR’s arrive and then it will only be Singapore.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 186
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:03 am

Some very good points by the posts in this topic and I was wondering if any of the below options sound feasible:
    If A350 has the legs to do MEL/SYD – LHR, then surely a daily BNE-LHR could be done as well. Maybe remove Oz-SIN-LHR to free up a slot? Or remove PER-LHR since BNE is less sensitive to commodities’ prices and has a much larger tourism industry.
    Is QF bold enough to consider PER their western international hub. I believe PER-FRA/CDG/TLV/JNB can be done quite successfully on the 787 on daily basis. Even though it is still a one stop for eastern states, I believe it could be competitive with the likes of ME3, C3, SQ,TG and CX.
    Is FCO viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from PER are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. FCO seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR and tourist traffic.
    Is DEL viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from MEL/SYD flights are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. DEL seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR traffic.

I believe QF is a very conservative airline and is always working on catching up to its competitors. As far as I am aware QF produced 2 (off) game changers to the aviation industry, introduction of business class and maybe nonstop from Oz to continental USA. I hope project sunrise will be another game changer that other airlines will hope to imitate.

These are exciting times for QF, confirming project sunrise and the order of Airbus narrow bodies.
 
a320fan
Posts: 1124
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Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:34 am

oceanvikram wrote:
Some very good points by the posts in this topic and I was wondering if any of the below options sound feasible:
    If A350 has the legs to do MEL/SYD – LHR, then surely a daily BNE-LHR could be done as well. Maybe remove Oz-SIN-LHR to free up a slot? Or remove PER-LHR since BNE is less sensitive to commodities’ prices and has a much larger tourism industry.
    Is QF bold enough to consider PER their western international hub. I believe PER-FRA/CDG/TLV/JNB can be done quite successfully on the 787 on daily basis. Even though it is still a one stop for eastern states, I believe it could be competitive with the likes of ME3, C3, SQ,TG and CX.
    Is FCO viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from PER are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. FCO seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR and tourist traffic.
    Is DEL viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from MEL/SYD flights are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. DEL seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR traffic.

I believe QF is a very conservative airline and is always working on catching up to its competitors. As far as I am aware QF produced 2 (off) game changers to the aviation industry, introduction of business class and maybe nonstop from Oz to continental USA. I hope project sunrise will be another game changer that other airlines will hope to imitate.

These are exciting times for QF, confirming project sunrise and the order of Airbus narrow bodies.


Don’t think there would be the premium demand from BNE to justify a non stop sunrise flight.

PER-FRA, CDG I could see as possible, JNB almost a certainty (on A330), TLV doubtful it’s not a high volume market from Aus at all. Only possibility I see if direct AU - TLV is ELAL and then not daily. FCO and ATH i imagine would be easy to fill in Northern summer, but very marginal in Southern summer, CDG likely in that same boat to a slightly less extent. None of those city’s will get sunrise flights from the east on the 350.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:39 am

oceanvikram wrote:
Some very good points by the posts in this topic and I was wondering if any of the below options sound feasible:
    If A350 has the legs to do MEL/SYD – LHR, then surely a daily BNE-LHR could be done as well. Maybe remove Oz-SIN-LHR to free up a slot? Or remove PER-LHR since BNE is less sensitive to commodities’ prices and has a much larger tourism industry.
    Is QF bold enough to consider PER their western international hub. I believe PER-FRA/CDG/TLV/JNB can be done quite successfully on the 787 on daily basis. Even though it is still a one stop for eastern states, I believe it could be competitive with the likes of ME3, C3, SQ,TG and CX.
    Is FCO viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from PER are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. FCO seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR and tourist traffic.
    Is DEL viable year round on daily bases from Oz? I feel the current flights from MEL/SYD flights are to tap the pent up demand for travelling due to COVID. DEL seems to me to be a low yielding and seasonal with VFR traffic.

I believe QF is a very conservative airline and is always working on catching up to its competitors. As far as I am aware QF produced 2 (off) game changers to the aviation industry, introduction of business class and maybe nonstop from Oz to continental USA. I hope project sunrise will be another game changer that other airlines will hope to imitate.

These are exciting times for QF, confirming project sunrise and the order of Airbus narrow bodies.


I'd be very surprised if ( at least the 1st few years ) if there was a non stop from BNE to LHR. It just wouldn't have the premium demand to justify it.

Is Delhi viable year round - probably given the large amount of Indians is Sydney and Melbourne ( in particular) and growing business ties. However they'll never be able to compete with, say SQ, for the breadth of destinations in India.
 
anstar
Posts: 3498
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:34 am

Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


Isn't sunrise for JFL and Europe from the east coast? I haven't seen any hint the 350 will be on PER-LHR.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5686
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:56 am

anstar wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


Isn't sunrise for JFL and Europe from the east coast? I haven't seen any hint the 350 will be on PER-LHR.

It's more than a hint.

Read the OP's article.

"The A350-1000s will also be used on the Perth-London nonstop route lifting capacity and they are also capable of flying from Perth to Los Angeles nonstop."
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Qantas to firm up A350-1000’s for Project Sunrise by mid year

Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:44 am

PM wrote:
anstar wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
A nice shot in the arm for the A350. Will also give a big capacity jump on PER-LHR


Isn't sunrise for JFL and Europe from the east coast? I haven't seen any hint the 350 will be on PER-LHR.

It's more than a hint.

Read the OP's article.

"The A350-1000s will also be used on the Perth-London nonstop route lifting capacity and they are also capable of flying from Perth to Los Angeles nonstop."


Qantas hasn't said it though. I mean the A350 - 1000 will be capable of flying from Newcastle to London nonstop ut it doesn't mean it will happen.

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