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WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:56 pm

scbriml wrote:
Duke91 wrote:
What if QR actually goes the leasing route as the judge suggests?


Of course they could, but I suspect the overall cost for QR would be higher and availability will likely not match their original schedule.

Unless I've misunderstood the nuances of the case, I think QR have also now "lost" whatever payments they'd made for the A321s because Airbus can now apply those to the A350s that QR refused to take thanks to the cross-linking of the contracts. But I'm not 100% certain on that.

I disagree with the bolded part: the original QR order could have been transferred to a lessor of their choice, keeping the same MSNs and delivery order, yet to lessor A instead of QR; and QR could have struck a deal with said lessor.

Now, the judge has allowed Airbus to offer those slots to other customers, so that ship has sailed.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:03 pm

Massive egos, unchecked powers and the overriding compulsion to save face always lead to disaster.

We're seeing enough examples of that in the World right now...
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:09 pm

accentra wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Duke91 wrote:
What if QR actually goes the leasing route as the judge suggests?


Of course they could, but I suspect the overall cost for QR would be higher and availability will likely not match their original schedule.

Unless I've misunderstood the nuances of the case, I think QR have also now "lost" whatever payments they'd made for the A321s because Airbus can now apply those to the A350s that QR refused to take thanks to the cross-linking of the contracts. But I'm not 100% certain on that.


That's also my understanding. If confirmed, it's a particularly significant development.

Although the fight now appears to be moving in to another facet: whether Airbus can legally sell the A350s that Qatar Airways refused delivery of, with Qatar Airways instead insisting they are retained as available to Qatar Airways until the final judgment is made on the wider case. Flight Global has just put up an article on that. My reading is that Qatar Airways can't have it both ways. They either take the aircraft or forfeit them and allow Airbus to remararket them. Again, seems another sketchy legal move by Qatar, which doesn't bear much logical scrutiny.

Behind paywall:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 16.article


Why would QR fight for these rejected A350's? Do they still want the aircraft or is it just bluff?
 
xwb565
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:09 pm

This is getting plain ugly. AAB always had something going in his favor during previous disputes but this looks bleak doesn't it?
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:13 pm

PM wrote:
I wonder if ABB is now regretting starting this feud.


Al Baker probably believed he could bend over Airbus, but the latter is not giving an inch.

I wonder how the old Airbus with Enders and Leahy would have handled this dispute.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:31 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Why would QR fight for these rejected A350's? Do they still want the aircraft or is it just bluff?


I think QR really wanted all the planes they had on order - going to court to try and get the A321 order reinstated shows that. IMHO, QR overplayed their hand with their astronomical compensation demands and the "grounding" of a large chunk of their A350 fleet. I'm pretty sure the last thing Al Baker expected was for Airbus to cancel the A321 order (keeping the money) and piecemeal cancelling individual A350 orders as QR refused to take delivery of them.
 
Breathe
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:57 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Massive egos, unchecked powers and the overriding compulsion to save face always lead to disaster.

We're seeing enough examples of that in the World right now...

I suspect AAB would get binned by the Emir if they want to maintain a relationship with Airbus.

As it is, it's round 1 to Airbus and Qatar Airways looking like they are legally in deep toilet at the moment.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:13 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
accentra wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Of course they could, but I suspect the overall cost for QR would be higher and availability will likely not match their original schedule.

Unless I've misunderstood the nuances of the case, I think QR have also now "lost" whatever payments they'd made for the A321s because Airbus can now apply those to the A350s that QR refused to take thanks to the cross-linking of the contracts. But I'm not 100% certain on that.


That's also my understanding. If confirmed, it's a particularly significant development.

Although the fight now appears to be moving in to another facet: whether Airbus can legally sell the A350s that Qatar Airways refused delivery of, with Qatar Airways instead insisting they are retained as available to Qatar Airways until the final judgment is made on the wider case. Flight Global has just put up an article on that. My reading is that Qatar Airways can't have it both ways. They either take the aircraft or forfeit them and allow Airbus to remararket them. Again, seems another sketchy legal move by Qatar, which doesn't bear much logical scrutiny.

Behind paywall:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 16.article


Why would QR fight for these rejected A350's? Do they still want the aircraft or is it just bluff?


They definitely need them for their expansion. 787s are not delivered right now, only other choice would ne second hand A350s, 777s or 787s. But where should they come from? I could imagine some 777s are available.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Why would QR fight for these rejected A350's? Do they still want the aircraft or is it just bluff?


I think QR really wanted all the planes they had on order - going to court to try and get the A321 order reinstated shows that. IMHO, QR overplayed their hand with their astronomical compensation demands and the "grounding" of a large chunk of their A350 fleet. I'm pretty sure the last thing Al Baker expected was for Airbus to cancel the A321 order (keeping the money) and piecemeal cancelling individual A350 orders as QR refused to take delivery of them.


But AAB should have known it's a legal possibility. Anyone who's gone through negotiations with any professional supplier, let alone one as powerful as Airbus, will always protect themselves through Set-Off Clauses or Cross-default clauses. AAB walking into court expecting anything other than the judge's decision shows the bemusing arrogance of someone who seems to just want his cake and eat it all the time. As the Flightglobal article said, it's difficult to defend against the claim from Airbus that if QR doesn't want the planes, then QR is not at a loss if Airbus sells them to third parties, but if it does want the planes, then why is it not paying for them, and if they are not paying for them, then it is, as Airbus say, a ruse to delay delivery when the market is weak, which is what AAB in effect said publicly last year with his "we won't be taking delivery of any aircraft this year", which obviously got short shrift from those whom QR had delivery contracts i.e. Airbus who subsequently incur damages.

Duke91 wrote:

What if QR actually goes the leasing route as the judge suggests?


This is the direction it was inevitably going to go between Airbus and QR anyway, and Boeing are probably chewing on it as well. The way AAB speaks about suppliers and treats them, they don’t need him as much as he needs them, so forcing him to go through a middleman lessor is the inevitable end of this. A & B will have tight delivery and payment terms, Leasing companies will have to judge whether taking on the risk of having A or B on one side and QR on the other is worth the risk/reward for the fee they can charge their customer in QR. Ultimately being a nightmare customer is only going to make it more expensive for QR to buy new planes.

As the Reuters article said, both A and QR will want to avoid a full court order on this due to the sensitivity of trade between Europe and Qatar, when Europe needs more gas supplies, and thus I agree, AAB is likely to be sacrificed before Europe is by the Qatari elite. The airline is a major symbol of the country, and the constant whining year in year out is becoming embarrassing. Maybe, just maybe, AAB is finally realising that p**sing off one of your only two major suppliers, when you are one of many potential customers, is not a smart move, and it’s not the same as slamming the phone down on your stationery supplier.
 
smartplane
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:46 pm

sxf24 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
One thing is certain, airlines now will be looking to eliminate the cross-default clause in future contracts. In a duopoly with long lead periods for aircraft, it gives the manufacturers a lot of power.

Cross default clauses, some of which are implied, won't be eliminated, as long as 'heavy hitter' buyers insist on linking retrospective credits between tranches, and even completely different model orders. OEM's won't interlink benefits and de-link penalties for customers, with no OEM upside. That's the famous 'heads we win, tails you lose' approach. Doesn't make for sustainable, long-term relationships, in business or otherwise.


You can’t have an implied cross default clause. It’s explicit or non-existent.

Agreed.

This case demonstrates you can have express cross credit clauses, as here between the A350 and A321 orders, which legal minds consider, again as in this case, can be unwound without there being an express cross default clause.

Commonsense that you cannot earn conditional benefits, when the conditions precedent no longer apply, even though the conditions subsequent still do.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:11 pm

With Qatar's legal case seemingly falling apart like a cheap suit and the metaphoric ball being very much in Airbus' court, how do we expect Airbus to respond to this strategically? Do they let this go to trial - expecting a win - but knowing it will be dragged out for years? Or do they accept a settlement from Qatar - despite the current case having been damaging to Airbus' reputation (with Qatar Airways attacks being very public)?

One wonders what Airbus might be able to negotiate in a settlement:
- As many have suggested here, the powers at be in the Qatari Government might not be appreciative of the situation AAB has gotten them into. Could Airbus get him replaced? Maybe the C Suite aswell?
- How about the leadership of the QCAA who seem clearly complicit in abusing their position as safety regulators in order to do a hit job on Airbus? The level one finding on the A350s that they won't make public shows that their concern for safety is not what one would respect from a competent regulator.
- Presumably Airbus would be able to force them to accept the NTU A350s that have already been built with the relevant penalty payments.
- A new contract for A321neos but with later delivery positions?
- With yet another 777X delay, it makes you wonder whether QR might walk away from that order (at least the 777-8/9 pax portion of it) and buy more A350s....

LTEN11 wrote:
If QR loses the paint peel case, I can see more than QR kicking up a stink. AAB did say early on that this has greater industrial ramifications than just QR, I can see the state of Qatar not ordering anything from the European countries involved in Airbus. No more military orders, machinery, computing, oil and gas contracts, etc, Basically, if it can be sourced from elsewhere, it will be, China maybe a big winner here.

An AAB tantrum, maybe child's play compared to a possible Qatar government tantrum.


Sounds like a great way for the Qatari Government to lose QR traffic rights to Europe!

accentra wrote:
I don't believe that this will escalate to a Qatari ban on European products connected to Airbus. It wouldn't suit Qatar either militarily or geopolitically.


Exactly. They just bought a lot of Rafales so are geopolitically wedded quite tightly to Europe/France.

accentra wrote:
Rather, I suspect they will sacrifice AAB, if Qatar ends up with egg on its face, post the A350 judgment.


One can only hope...

JerseyFlyer wrote:
I think he thought Airbus would not want to "lose face" by being accused in public of poor quality by one of its largest A350 customers, so would open its purse in private to his open-ended demands. Airbus called his bluff.


That's definitely the impression that I'm getting. Very much a situation of someone surrounded by yes men being confronted by the realities of the real world. I do wonder how much of a history there is in this regard with AAB? How many other smaller requests/disputes has Airbus (or Boeing for that matter) just folded and let AAB have his way in order to save the contract? We all know that appeasement of someone with a big ego never works very long.

Francoflier wrote:
Massive egos, unchecked powers and the overriding compulsion to save face always lead to disaster.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

PepeTheFrog wrote:
I wonder how the old Airbus with Enders and Leahy would have handled this dispute.


It's times like this that I really wish John Leahy had a Twitter account.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:21 pm

zkojq wrote:
One wonders what Airbus might be able to negotiate in a settlement:
- As many have suggested here, the powers at be in the Qatari Government might not be appreciative of the situation AAB has gotten them into. Could Airbus get him replaced? Maybe the C Suite aswell?
- How about the leadership of the QCAA who seem clearly complicit in abusing their position as safety regulators in order to do a hit job on Airbus? The level one finding on the A350s that they won't make public shows that their concern for safety is not what one would respect from a competent regulator.
- Presumably Airbus would be able to force them to accept the NTU A350s that have already been built with the relevant penalty payments.
- A new contract for A321neos but with later delivery positions?
- With yet another 777X delay, it makes you wonder whether QR might walk away from that order (at least the 777-8/9 pax portion of it) and buy more A350s....


Those are all interesting questions and I don't think any of us REALLY know the answers, but I would assume that Airbus thinks they will win this in court, and they would not offer a settlement with their currently better leverage. If a settlement happens, it'll be likely because QR quietly offers one and Airbus accepts as a grand gesture. But given what has been transpiring, the idea of a grand gesture from A seems like a pipedream. The only way that happens is if Qatar bundles the settlement offer with a public dismissal of AAB and a public apology. Outside of that, I see no chance of a settlement.

Right about now would be a great time for QR to force some introspection and consider that if this gets ruled on and they lose, it will be VERY ugly and their ability to run a successful airline will be reduced dramatically.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 8:22 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Those are all interesting questions and I don't think any of us REALLY know the answers, but I would assume that Airbus thinks they will win this in court, and they would not offer a settlement with their currently better leverage.


Agreed.

aaexecplat wrote:
If a settlement happens, it'll be likely because QR quietly offers one and Airbus accepts as a grand gesture. But given what has been transpiring, the idea of a grand gesture from A seems like a pipedream.


:checkmark:

I think any settlement would have to be a very favorable for Airbus if they were going to accept it after all that's transpired.

aaexecplat wrote:
The only way that happens is if Qatar bundles the settlement offer with a public dismissal of AAB and a public apology. Outside of that, I see no chance of a settlement.


:checkmark:

Though I'm not convinced there would be a public apology though. Saving face is too important in that part of the world. Obviously it's even more impossible with someone like AAB at the helm.

I suspect the maximum Airbus would be able to get out of QR would be a public statement saying that the A350 is safe and that all paint and skin issues have been successfully repaired. But I can't see that being acceptable to Airbus. Especially if the alternative is a judge ruling that Airbus' aircraft aren't defective and don't have safety issues.
 
jetlaggedAF
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 4:26 pm

Airbus can probably afford to be a little magnanimous here. With the 777X delays and the need for longer range aircraft at European carriers for their Asia routes due to the closure of Russian air space (probably indefinitely), the A350 is going to be in demand all over. Offer QR and AAB an off ramp that involves QR publicly stating they're happy with their A350s and backing that up by upping their A350 orders and accepting later slots for the A321s they just lost. With the 777x delays QR needs more A350s anyway and I'm pretty sure they're under enormous pressure to accept some sort of settlement asap so they can get as many A350s flying again in time for the World Cup. Ancient 77Ls and non Q suite 77Ws, 787s and A330s just aren't going to cut it now.
 
Breathe
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 4:44 pm

jetlaggedAF wrote:
Airbus can probably afford to be a little magnanimous here. With the 777X delays and the need for longer range aircraft at European carriers for their Asia routes due to the closure of Russian air space (probably indefinitely), the A350 is going to be in demand all over. Offer QR and AAB an off ramp that involves QR publicly stating they're happy with their A350s and backing that up by upping their A350 orders and accepting later slots for the A321s they just lost. With the 777x delays QR needs more A350s anyway and I'm pretty sure they're under enormous pressure to accept some sort of settlement asap so they can get as many A350s flying again in time for the World Cup. Ancient 77Ls and non Q suite 77Ws, 787s and A330s just aren't going to cut it now.

If Qatar Airways sees the court case landing them in deep toilet, then you would imagine they would come to a settlement with Airbus. As you say, I'm sure something along the lines of the reordering of the A321neo's and A350s (with even more robust contract in Airbus' favour) and a top-up order (as a gesture of "goodwill" by QR), might be a way out for QR and knowing AAB he'd probably spin it as some sort of victory. :biggrin:
 
jetlaggedAF
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 5:03 pm

Breathe wrote:
If Qatar Airways sees the court case landing them in deep toilet, then you would imagine they would come to a settlement with Airbus. As you say, I'm sure something along the lines of the reordering of the A321neo's and A350s (with even more robust contract in Airbus' favour) and a top-up order (as a gesture of "goodwill" by QR), might be a way out for QR and knowing AAB he'd probably spin it as some sort of victory. :biggrin:

I don't think there's any doubt the court case will as you say lend them in "deep toilet". They never had a case to begin with. It was a brazen attempt at a cash grab by AAB that didn't go his way when Airbus actually decided to call him out on it and go to court. I'm sure there are legitimate issues with paint finishes on certain planes but I'm also sure they're not a safety risk and the fixes offered by Airbus were more than adequate to deal with the issue. I do not find the Qatari regulators to be credibly neutral in a country where everything runs through connections with an extended royal family that AAB himself is a distant part of. If every other regulator is ok with it, its obvious the Qataris are just another part of AABs extortion attempt and this will not hold weight in a legitimate western court.

There's no doubt QR is in a very difficult spot here. I'd imagine their primary competitors (EK and TK) are looking very closely at swooping in and talking away their A350 slots to not only bolster their own fleets but to cripple QRs long range backbone for years as well. Sometimes it's good business to deliberately cut off a bad customer. Sometimes it's better business to threaten to do that but also offer them a way out that turns them into a good customer.
 
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HKAusFlyer
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 5:16 pm

https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

Aero.de from Germany is reporting that Lufthansa is interested in not just the previously rumoured two Aeroflot A350-900s, but also Qatar's not-taken-up A350-1000s.

Which makes a lot of sense given the 777-9X is delayed till 2025, whereas these A350-1000s are available much faster. Probably all 22 of them will be delivered before 2025?
 
accentra
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 6:32 pm

HKAusFlyer wrote:
https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthansa-spricht-mit-Airbus-ueber-A350-1000.html

Aero.de from Germany is reporting that Lufthansa is interested in not just the previously rumoured two Aeroflot A350-900s, but also Qatar's not-taken-up A350-1000s.

Which makes a lot of sense given the 777-9X is delayed till 2025, whereas these A350-1000s are available much faster. Probably all 22 of them will be delivered before 2025?


This is a hugely interesting development. It would make perfect sense for Lufthansa to take the NTU QR frames and, possibly, the future QR delivery positions, in light of the 777X delivery delays. It also of course significantly further weakens AAB's bargaining position with Airbus. I suspect he was gambling on Airbus not being able to place those frames. Looks like another wrong call from him, if the Lufthansa placement happens.
 
DCA350
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 6:34 pm

HKAusFlyer wrote:
https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthansa-spricht-mit-Airbus-ueber-A350-1000.html

Aero.de from Germany is reporting that Lufthansa is interested in not just the previously rumoured two Aeroflot A350-900s, but also Qatar's not-taken-up A350-1000s.

Which makes a lot of sense given the 777-9X is delayed till 2025, whereas these A350-1000s are available much faster. Probably all 22 of them will be delivered before 2025?


Lufthansa is always lurking in the weeds ready to jump at a good opportunity, like they did with the Philippine A350s.. The A35Ks would be a great buy, since they already have the A359s and it would allow Lufthansa to immediately retire or not activate the remaining 747-4s and A346s.. With fuel skyrocketing I'm sure they would love to retire some 4 holers..
 
DartHerald
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 7:28 pm

accentra wrote:
HKAusFlyer wrote:
https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthansa-spricht-mit-Airbus-ueber-A350-1000.html

Aero.de from Germany is reporting that Lufthansa is interested in not just the previously rumoured two Aeroflot A350-900s, but also Qatar's not-taken-up A350-1000s.

Which makes a lot of sense given the 777-9X is delayed till 2025, whereas these A350-1000s are available much faster. Probably all 22 of them will be delivered before 2025?


This is a hugely interesting development. It would make perfect sense for Lufthansa to take the NTU QR frames and, possibly, the future QR delivery positions, in light of the 777X delivery delays. It also of course significantly further weakens AAB's bargaining position with Airbus. I suspect he was gambling on Airbus not being able to place those frames. Looks like another wrong call from him, if the Lufthansa placement happens.


Not good news for Boeing, though - if they take all the Qatar delivery positions will they need any 777Xs?
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 9:21 pm

jetlaggedAF wrote:
Airbus can probably afford to be a little magnanimous here. With the 777X delays and the need for longer range aircraft at European carriers for their Asia routes due to the closure of Russian air space (probably indefinitely), the A350 is going to be in demand all over. Offer QR and AAB an off ramp that involves QR publicly stating they're happy with their A350s and backing that up by upping their A350 orders and accepting later slots for the A321s they just lost. With the 777x delays QR needs more A350s anyway and I'm pretty sure they're under enormous pressure to accept some sort of settlement asap so they can get as many A350s flying again in time for the World Cup. Ancient 77Ls and non Q suite 77Ws, 787s and A330s just aren't going to cut it now.


Of course, AAB's plan was for Airbus to pay for storing his A350's until he needed them for the world cup, unfortunately for him they will now be sold to other carriers. With the 777x delays, air routes getting longer and oil prices rising because of the Russia situation there is absolutely no need for Airbus to be magnanimous here, QR will have to climb down the ladder on their own.

Breathe wrote:
If Qatar Airways sees the court case landing them in deep toilet, then you would imagine they would come to a settlement with Airbus. As you say, I'm sure something along the lines of the reordering of the A321neo's and A350s (with even more robust contract in Airbus' favour) and a top-up order (as a gesture of "goodwill" by QR), might be a way out for QR and knowing AAB he'd probably spin it as some sort of victory. :biggrin:


Sometimes there comes a point in business relationships where this sh1t gets old and the supplier decides its no longer worth doing business with the customer.
Last edited by BoeingVista on Sat May 07, 2022 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 9:31 pm

DartHerald wrote:
accentra wrote:
HKAusFlyer wrote:
https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthansa-spricht-mit-Airbus-ueber-A350-1000.html

Aero.de from Germany is reporting that Lufthansa is interested in not just the previously rumoured two Aeroflot A350-900s, but also Qatar's not-taken-up A350-1000s.

Which makes a lot of sense given the 777-9X is delayed till 2025, whereas these A350-1000s are available much faster. Probably all 22 of them will be delivered before 2025?


This is a hugely interesting development. It would make perfect sense for Lufthansa to take the NTU QR frames and, possibly, the future QR delivery positions, in light of the 777X delivery delays. It also of course significantly further weakens AAB's bargaining position with Airbus. I suspect he was gambling on Airbus not being able to place those frames. Looks like another wrong call from him, if the Lufthansa placement happens.


Not good news for Boeing, though - if they take all the Qatar delivery positions will they need any 777Xs?


17 cancelled by sanctions from Aeroflot and 3 NTU from QR = 20 which oddly enough is the number of 777-9 that LH has on order.. so no and no.
 
kayik
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 07, 2022 10:36 pm

What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?
 
sibibom
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 1:24 am

As I said right at the start of this saga months back....Airbus wouldn't go this nuclear unless they knew they would have odds in their favour in the court of Law. For Qatar this was just AAB's usual weekly drama. There are 2 things that will need to happen.

1) AAB will need to go and I think Qatari royal family is now seriously considering it.
2) They will order A350F and make up with Airbus and take few later slots, and give up most of the current slots.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 2:27 am

kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?


If QR attempts to pay for and get the next A350 delivered Airbus may still turn round and say we are in dispute for $200m over the 3 cancelled orders and refuse, may be worth it for QR to muddy the waters of blame in the High Court as they do not look to have any viable defences right now.

Anybody think that this goes back to QR's carpet bullshit with the first A350 deliveries? That must have chaffed and irked Airbus.

sibibom wrote:
As I said right at the start of this saga months back....Airbus wouldn't go this nuclear unless they knew they would have odds in their favour in the court of Law. For Qatar this was just AAB's usual weekly drama. There are 2 things that will need to happen.

1) AAB will need to go and I think Qatari royal family is now seriously considering it.
2) They will order A350F and make up with Airbus and take few later slots, and give up most of the current slots.


It may well take an A350F order to smooth this over, With 777x program in chaos Boeing is likely to be the biggest loser here. LH takes enough A350's to cancel outright and QR switches 777x freighter order to A350 to get out from under this litigation.

If and its a big if, Boeing get the 777x certified early 2025 its still going to take a few years for any significant number to enter airline service, this is really not a good time for major WB operators to go around pissing off Airbus.
 
Duke91
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 4:13 am

I always liked the expression: play stupid games, win stupid prizes
 
jetlaggedAF
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:34 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 4:30 pm

kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 7:49 pm

BoeingVista wrote:

Anybody think that this goes back to QR's carpet bullshit with the first A350 deliveries? That must have chaffed and irked Airbus.


I would not go that far. It certainly ruffled some feathers, but that was still, I'd guess, "par for the course" with such a customer. The thing is that this recent affair was AAB really doing his best for Airbus to lose face. I believe this is where he went too far.

Only my musician's opinion, of course :-)
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 8:36 pm

jetlaggedAF wrote:
kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.

If QR was to come tomorrow with the money and say "we'll take those 3 A350s no questions asked", I doubt Airbus would tell them to go pound sand; even if, indeed, Airbus has the higher hand right now.
 
accentra
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:35 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sun May 08, 2022 9:02 pm

Aircellist wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:

Anybody think that this goes back to QR's carpet bullshit with the first A350 deliveries? That must have chaffed and irked Airbus.


I would not go that far. It certainly ruffled some feathers, but that was still, I'd guess, "par for the course" with such a customer. The thing is that this recent affair was AAB really doing his best for Airbus to lose face. I believe this is where he went too far.

Only my musician's opinion, of course :-)


I'm of the opinion that this whole thing does indeed date back to the 'carpet issue'. In fairness, the spat wasn't over carpets per se. It was a fair bit more complex than that. However, it escalated, as AAB has a habit of doing, with deliveries of A350s stalled, and it ended up with a thoroughly frustrated Airbus attempting to 'run around' AAB and appeal directly to the Emir to sort things out. Who knows what transpired from that approach but A350 deliveries restarted. Go figure! Things have been distinctly dicey between Airbus and AAB ever since. Hardly a surprise as it's no secret that AAB isn't the type to let any slight go 'unpunished'.
 
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BoeingVista
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 09, 2022 2:37 am

WayexTDI wrote:
jetlaggedAF wrote:
kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.

If QR was to come tomorrow with the money and say "we'll take those 3 A350s no questions asked", I doubt Airbus would tell them to go pound sand; even if, indeed, Airbus has the higher hand right now.


Airbus is clearly using these A350's and QR slots in ongoing sales campaigns which have the chance of chipping off LH as a 777X operator and helping out other good customers with delivery slots so it has nothing to gain from handing them over to QR at this point. As Airbus are confident of winning the legal action they will be banking on recouping any loses on the transaction via compensation. Selling the A350's on is a win win for airbus, QR will have to come up with a sweetener beyond just paying for the old order.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 09, 2022 5:04 pm

accentra wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:

Anybody think that this goes back to QR's carpet bullshit with the first A350 deliveries? That must have chaffed and irked Airbus.


I would not go that far. It certainly ruffled some feathers, but that was still, I'd guess, "par for the course" with such a customer. The thing is that this recent affair was AAB really doing his best for Airbus to lose face. I believe this is where he went too far.

Only my musician's opinion, of course :-)


I'm of the opinion that this whole thing does indeed date back to the 'carpet issue'. In fairness, the spat wasn't over carpets per se. It was a fair bit more complex than that. However, it escalated, as AAB has a habit of doing, with deliveries of A350s stalled, and it ended up with a thoroughly frustrated Airbus attempting to 'run around' AAB and appeal directly to the Emir to sort things out. Who knows what transpired from that approach but A350 deliveries restarted. Go figure! Things have been distinctly dicey between Airbus and AAB ever since. Hardly a surprise as it's no secret that AAB isn't the type to let any slight go 'unpunished'.


I hear you. Thanks for the enlightenment :-)
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 09, 2022 7:15 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
jetlaggedAF wrote:
kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.

If QR was to come tomorrow with the money and say "we'll take those 3 A350s no questions asked", I doubt Airbus would tell them to go pound sand; even if, indeed, Airbus has the higher hand right now.


I do think they would tell them to go away. QR is bad for business if they behave the way they have. And they have shown an incredible lack of ethics along the way. It is one thing to be a picky customer. Another thing to use nitpicking items to renegotiate deals on the fly, badmouth and impugn the OEM in the international press, and using regulators to help spin a false narrative. I can't see any way QR buys another AB airplane unless AAB is sacked and a public apology for the row is issued by QR/Qatar. And I doubt that will ever happen. Much easier to buy Boeing planes and hope nobody remembers in 10 years.
 
kayik
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm

Another issue is the ownership of the engines. Who ordered and paid for them? Since there are no engine options it may be that Airbus makes the deal with RR. If not, that is another problem. Then A may consider delivering the planes is a better option if QR makes the payment.
 
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keesje
Posts: 15043
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed May 11, 2022 4:13 pm

I guess playing time will be over soon.

Qatar wants the best aircraft around, A350s & A321NEO's, Airbus wants to sell aircraft.

Fire all lawyers, fix the aircraft at Airbus costs & move on.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed May 11, 2022 8:05 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess playing time will be over soon.

Qatar wants the best aircraft around, A350s & A321NEO's, Airbus wants to sell aircraft.

Fire all lawyers, fix the aircraft at Airbus costs & move on.


I disagree - if QR are responsible for some of the damage then they should be man enough to solve their own problems. AAB isn't, and he must play the hand he has now drawn.

Airbus can place those aircraft easily. I wouldn't want QR as a direct client after this. No way.
 
accentra
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:35 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed May 11, 2022 9:29 pm

It's interesting. I suspect that Airbus would be willing to reach a pragmatic compromise on all this, as they are after all a business first and foremost, but providing that there was reassurance (perhaps behind the scenes/privately) that AAB acknowledged that he had gone far too far this time and would not repeat these shenanigans or that the Emir would require AAB's departure. But without that seismic shift, I would wager that Airbus are set on getting out of this abusive/destructive relationship with QR/AAB. And all indications are that the courts will support them in that, based on the available evidence thus far!
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Wed May 11, 2022 11:49 pm

accentra wrote:
or that the Emir would require AAB's departure.


I suspect a person with Mr Baker's personality manages his career and his relationships in such a way that it is very, ummm, difficult, to sack him.
 
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zeke
Posts: 17261
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Thu May 12, 2022 11:53 am

jetlaggedAF wrote:
kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.


I don’t think the preferred process for Airbus is to continue with this litigation. They had called for independent legal advice which is arbitration under the current Rules of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce of Paris. The arbitration award would be final and binding on the Parties.

The preferred method of dispute resolution at Airbus is arbitration, not litigation. Arbitration would still allow QR to obtain remedies under the contract, it would still involve an impartial 3rd party.
 
accentra
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:35 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Thu May 12, 2022 12:01 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
accentra wrote:
or that the Emir would require AAB's departure.


I suspect a person with Mr Baker's personality manages his career and his relationships in such a way that it is very, ummm, difficult, to sack him.


Haha! Yes! The key thing might be if this whole episode is perceived as bringing 'shame' on Qatar. We've already seen the international standing of the Qatari aviation authority brought in to doubt by its part in this (i.e. not making available the 'evidence'/ 'analysis' that supposedly supported the groundings, probably because there is none). If the court case gamble also leaves Qatar with egg on its face then it's a fair bet that the Emir won't be too happy about that reputational damage. And AAB may well be 'retired' at that point. We shall see!
 
Gar1G
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:31 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Thu May 12, 2022 3:36 pm

zeke wrote:
jetlaggedAF wrote:
kayik wrote:
What if QR pays and claims the A350's tomorrow?

Won't make a difference legally. QR are still in breach of contract because this payment would be too late to meet what was agreed to. The ball is completely in Airbus' court here.


I don’t think the preferred process for Airbus is to continue with this litigation. They had called for independent legal advice which is arbitration under the current Rules of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce of Paris. The arbitration award would be final and binding on the Parties.

The preferred method of dispute resolution at Airbus is arbitration, not litigation. Arbitration would still allow QR to obtain remedies under the contract, it would still involve an impartial 3rd party.


What do you think is holding up such arbitration?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 17261
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Thu May 12, 2022 8:03 pm

QR started litigation
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 9:12 am

Is there somewhere a timeline of next steps? When is next hearing?
Sorry if I overlooked it.
 
TC957
Posts: 4377
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 10:14 am

keesje wrote:
I guess playing time will be over soon.

Qatar wants the best aircraft around, A350s & A321NEO's, Airbus wants to sell aircraft.

Fire all lawyers, fix the aircraft at Airbus costs & move on.

If only it were that simple. But I suspect that's how Airbus handled other airlines that reported minor A350 paint issues. You don't see other airlines's CEO's making such a shutzpah over this issue. And none of their countries aviation regulators have deemed the grounding necessary of the affected frames so what we have come to now is down to how QR have handled this.
 
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keesje
Posts: 15043
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 10:56 am

TC957 wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess playing time will be over soon.

Qatar wants the best aircraft around, A350s & A321NEO's, Airbus wants to sell aircraft.

Fire all lawyers, fix the aircraft at Airbus costs & move on.

If only it were that simple. But I suspect that's how Airbus handled other airlines that reported minor A350 paint issues. You don't see other airlines's CEO's making such a shutzpah over this issue. And none of their countries aviation regulators have deemed the grounding necessary of the affected frames so what we have come to now is down to how QR have handled this.


I don't know all the details & it seems the way QR handled it was more personal then regular by I guy who isn't used to handling "no" as an answer.

On the other hand I don't want to downplay the paint damage issues, they look bad enough to me.

But I assume there is a reason & solution for it that can be worked out by operations.

And Al Baker probably doesn't want to bet the company on 777-9 & 737-10s iso proven A35Xs and A321NEOs.

Image
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/

Image
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... 50-damage/
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 12:12 pm

Keesje, I fully agree with you. Emotions have taken the upper hand IMO. Not just in Qatar, but I suspect to a lesser extent also in Toulouse, and definitely in this thread. So it's time to be regain our senses again. It's in the interest of all parties to settle this out of court now. Realizing I will be called naïve :white: I'm hopeful there will be a settlement, and I believe QR will accept eventually the same solutions Airbus provided to other airlines. I also believe the A350 deliveries will restart after the dust has settled, and the cancelled A350 orders will reappear in Airbus' order book (maybe converted to and added with A359s). Airbus needs QR's A350 order IMO, it's not that A350 orders kept rolling in the past few years.

Different story with the A321neo order. Airbus possibly may want to take advantage and sell these with higher margins. QR can either lease neo's or firm their 737-10 LoI.

Won't be surprised to see AAB announce his retirement half a year afterwards. Which, both AAB, QR and the emir will stress, will have no relationship whatsoever with this court battle, it was always in their plans, thanks you so much AAB, etc etc :spin: :spin: :spin:
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 12:16 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Keesje, I fully agree with you. Emotions have taken the upper hand IMO. Not just in Qatar, but I suspect to a lesser extent also in Toulouse, and definitely in this thread. So it's time to be regain our senses again. It's in the interest of all parties to settle this out of court now. Realizing I will be called naïve :white: I'm hopeful there will be a settlement, and I believe QR will accept eventually the same solutions Airbus provided to other airlines. I also believe the A350 deliveries will restart after the dust has settled, and the cancelled A350 orders will reappear in Airbus' order book (maybe converted to and added with A359s). Airbus needs QR's A350 order IMO, it's not that A350 orders kept rolling in the past few years.

Different story with the A321neo order. Airbus possibly may want to take advantage and sell these with higher margins. QR can either lease neo's or firm their 737-10 LoI.

Won't be surprised to see AAB announce his retirement half a year afterwards. Which, both AAB, QR and the emir will stress, will have no relationship whatsoever with this court battle, it was always in their plans, thanks you so much AAB, etc etc :spin: :spin: :spin:


I doubt it. Apparently, the A35k that QR isn't taking are already planned to be sent off to LH. Once that happens, the entire deal is done IMO.
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 12:20 pm

keesje wrote:
TC957 wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess playing time will be over soon.

Qatar wants the best aircraft around, A350s & A321NEO's, Airbus wants to sell aircraft.

Fire all lawyers, fix the aircraft at Airbus costs & move on.

If only it were that simple. But I suspect that's how Airbus handled other airlines that reported minor A350 paint issues. You don't see other airlines's CEO's making such a shutzpah over this issue. And none of their countries aviation regulators have deemed the grounding necessary of the affected frames so what we have come to now is down to how QR have handled this.


I don't know all the details & it seems the way QR handled it was more personal then regular by I guy who isn't used to handling "no" as an answer.

On the other hand I don't want to downplay the paint damage issues, they look bad enough to me.

But I assume there is a reason & solution for it that can be worked out by operations.

And Al Baker probably doesn't want to bet the company on 777-9 & 737-10s iso proven A35Xs and A321NEOs.

Image
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/

Image
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... 50-damage/


Reminder...

1) QR used paint outside of Airbus specs/recommendation
2) QR used stripping techniques during repaint in contravention of published Airbus methods

It is entirely possible that the severity of the images you show is due to their continued defiance of Airbus paint and maintenance protocol. I think the images look bad, but they have to be viewed with the previously mentioned facts as the background.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 12:39 pm

aaexecplat wrote:
keesje wrote:
TC957 wrote:
If only it were that simple. But I suspect that's how Airbus handled other airlines that reported minor A350 paint issues. You don't see other airlines's CEO's making such a shutzpah over this issue. And none of their countries aviation regulators have deemed the grounding necessary of the affected frames so what we have come to now is down to how QR have handled this.


I don't know all the details & it seems the way QR handled it was more personal then regular by I guy who isn't used to handling "no" as an answer.

On the other hand I don't want to downplay the paint damage issues, they look bad enough to me.

But I assume there is a reason & solution for it that can be worked out by operations.

And Al Baker probably doesn't want to bet the company on 777-9 & 737-10s iso proven A35Xs and A321NEOs.

Image
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/

Image
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... 50-damage/


Reminder...

1) QR used paint outside of Airbus specs/recommendation
2) QR used stripping techniques during repaint in contravention of published Airbus methods

It is entirely possible that the severity of the images you show is due to their continued defiance of Airbus paint and maintenance protocol. I think the images look bad, but they have to be viewed with the previously mentioned facts as the background.

Did the five other airlines with similar paint defects also do this? There's an issue but QR and their regulators have most likely overstated the significance of the problem although it still needs to be remedied.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Mon May 16, 2022 12:45 pm

JohanTally wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:
keesje wrote:

I don't know all the details & it seems the way QR handled it was more personal then regular by I guy who isn't used to handling "no" as an answer.

On the other hand I don't want to downplay the paint damage issues, they look bad enough to me.

But I assume there is a reason & solution for it that can be worked out by operations.

And Al Baker probably doesn't want to bet the company on 777-9 & 737-10s iso proven A35Xs and A321NEOs.

Image
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/

Image
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... 50-damage/


Reminder...

1) QR used paint outside of Airbus specs/recommendation
2) QR used stripping techniques during repaint in contravention of published Airbus methods

It is entirely possible that the severity of the images you show is due to their continued defiance of Airbus paint and maintenance protocol. I think the images look bad, but they have to be viewed with the previously mentioned facts as the background.

Did the five other airlines with similar paint defects also do this? There's an issue but QR and their regulators have most likely overstated the significance of the problem although it still needs to be remedied.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-11-29/


No airline has had the same level of defects. No other airline has sued AB and no other regulator has grounded the A350. Beyond that, no other airline has released information about their paint specs, but my best guess is that other airlines followed both the AB paint specs and recommended repainting steps. Which may explain why no other airline has chosen to sue AB. I don't think anyone can deny there is a problem with paint peeling on A350 fuselages just as there is/was a problem with paint peeling on 787 wings. But the severity of the issue is almost certainly (based on the documentation provided by both aprties in court so far) due to QR's dogged insistence of doing things differently from what AB recommends for best results.
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