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Gar1G
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:31 pm

Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 8:34 am

I think we are already seeing the rhetoric dialling down from AAB. Within a month its gone from letting the decision come from courts, to wanting a decision out of court.

(28 April 2022 - Interview with John Strickland)
https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/high-oil-prices-can-trigger-a-second-recession-in-aviation-industry-says-qatar-airways-al-baker-1.87918171
Al Baker said the airline will let the UK courts come up with a resolution to Qatar Airlines’ legal dispute with Airbus over the A350 long-haul jet.



26 May 2022:
In a rare public comment on the case, QR’s CEO, Akbar Al Baker, told reporters on the sidelines of a news conference, “Every partnership has disputes, and I just hope that this dispute can be resolved outside the courts of law.”

https://airwaysmag.com/airbus-qatar-speedy-trial/
 
flymad
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 9:16 am

BoeingVista wrote:
jetlaggedAF wrote:
Airbus can probably afford to be a little magnanimous here. With the 777X delays and the need for longer range aircraft at European carriers for their Asia routes due to the closure of Russian air space (probably indefinitely), the A350 is going to be in demand all over. Offer QR and AAB an off ramp that involves QR publicly stating they're happy with their A350s and backing that up by upping their A350 orders and accepting later slots for the A321s they just lost. With the 777x delays QR needs more A350s anyway and I'm pretty sure they're under enormous pressure to accept some sort of settlement asap so they can get as many A350s flying again in time for the World Cup. Ancient 77Ls and non Q suite 77Ws, 787s and A330s just aren't going to cut it now.


Of course, AAB's plan was for Airbus to pay for storing his A350's until he needed them for the world cup, unfortunately for him they will now be sold to other carriers. With the 777x delays, air routes getting longer and oil prices rising because of the Russia situation there is absolutely no need for Airbus to be magnanimous here, QR will have to climb down the ladder on their own.

Breathe wrote:
If Qatar Airways sees the court case landing them in deep toilet, then you would imagine they would come to a settlement with Airbus. As you say, I'm sure something along the lines of the reordering of the A321neo's and A350s (with even more robust contract in Airbus' favour) and a top-up order (as a gesture of "goodwill" by QR), might be a way out for QR and knowing AAB he'd probably spin it as some sort of victory. :biggrin:


Sometimes there comes a point in business relationships where this sh1t gets old and the supplier decides its no longer worth doing business with the customer.[/quote]

Agree! I worked in the hospitality industry for 40 years and one of my general managers once told me:
"The Customer is always right .............. to a certain point! then you tell him go go get...........d
 
xwb565
Posts: 216
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 9:49 am

Gar1G wrote:
I think we are already seeing the rhetoric dialling down from AAB. Within a month its gone from letting the decision come from courts, to wanting a decision out of court.

(28 April 2022 - Interview with John Strickland)
https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/high-oil-prices-can-trigger-a-second-recession-in-aviation-industry-says-qatar-airways-al-baker-1.87918171
Al Baker said the airline will let the UK courts come up with a resolution to Qatar Airlines’ legal dispute with Airbus over the A350 long-haul jet.



26 May 2022:
In a rare public comment on the case, QR’s CEO, Akbar Al Baker, told reporters on the sidelines of a news conference, “Every partnership has disputes, and I just hope that this dispute can be resolved outside the courts of law.”

https://airwaysmag.com/airbus-qatar-speedy-trial/


Time for Toulouse to give AAB a face saver and close this saga. Restoration of the 321 order and conversion rights to the 350f would be my suggestion in case Airbus wants advice. :spin:
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 1:05 pm

enzo011 wrote:
I am no lawyer but seeing that other jumped on the order for Airbus not to sell the slots before the judge could rule on whether the were allowed to cross link contracts, what do those that saw it that was see the judge allowing Airbus to continue to deliver aircraft to QR and not stop it at this point? Surely that points to the judge believing the aircraft are safe to fly otherwise he would have sided with QR. :duck:

Thing is, even not considering the judge and the law, QR and the QCAA have dramatically failed to prove, and convinced other CAAs, that the A350s are unsafe to fly; no one has even seen their (supposedly existing) order to ground the planes. I've said since day one that it was all a stunt and that it'd blow in QR's face.
 
accentra
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 1:18 pm

Gar1G wrote:
I think we are already seeing the rhetoric dialling down from AAB. Within a month its gone from letting the decision come from courts, to wanting a decision out of court.

(28 April 2022 - Interview with John Strickland)
https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/high-oil-prices-can-trigger-a-second-recession-in-aviation-industry-says-qatar-airways-al-baker-1.87918171
Al Baker said the airline will let the UK courts come up with a resolution to Qatar Airlines’ legal dispute with Airbus over the A350 long-haul jet.



26 May 2022:
In a rare public comment on the case, QR’s CEO, Akbar Al Baker, told reporters on the sidelines of a news conference, “Every partnership has disputes, and I just hope that this dispute can be resolved outside the courts of law.”

https://airwaysmag.com/airbus-qatar-speedy-trial/


Yes, it must be clear to him that QR doesn't have the evidence to support his wild accusations in a court of law, especially when no other authority has sought to 'ground' the A350. I suspect it's going to be all about finding a face-saving 'out' for him now. Let's see if Airbus will let him off the hook. I suspect they will, but there will be a price to be paid (extra orders, gag clause, etc?). I wouldn't actually be surprised if AAB didn't miraculously "retire' six months after this has all been put to bed. It was one step too far this time and he, QR and the Qatari CAA have lost huge amounts of credibility on this fool's errand.
 
kayik
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 1:48 pm

I am really impressed with the judge. It is highly likely that he has already formed an opinion but chose to give a year to both parties for reconciliation. It seems that he did not want to interfere with a multi billion dollar dispute.

On the other hand, I always thought that A350 contract was still alive since the issue was in the hands of law. That is why airbus kept producing. I think they will reach an agreement soon and QA will start getting the planes. Losing A321 deliveries was enough punishment for QA. Airbus should not punish itself further with A350s.
 
DartHerald
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 2:07 pm

kayik wrote:
On the other hand, I always thought that A350 contract was still alive since the issue was in the hands of law. That is why airbus kept producing. I think they will reach an agreement soon and QA will start getting the planes. Losing A321 deliveries was enough punishment for QA. Airbus should not punish itself further with A350s.


Presumably Airbus had already committed to the long-lead items for at least a proportion of the frames on order at the time the lawsuit began and those frames couldn't be simply stopped. Whether that applies to all the outstanding frames is a moot point though, and some may never be built
 
B777LRF
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 2:33 pm

A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 2:38 pm

AIRC the MAX and 77XF deals are both either MOUs or LOIs, easy to cancel if necessary. On the F front, QR also have 77LRFs coming which I think are firm near term deliveries
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 2:51 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
AIRC the MAX and 77XF deals are both either MOUs or LOIs, easy to cancel if necessary. On the F front, QR also have 77LRFs coming which I think are firm near term deliveries


Wrong on 7778F.

Qr has 34x firm orders for 7778 freighterjet

20 are conversions from its 60 777x orders.

Sixteen options too
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 4:04 pm

B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.
Last edited by 3rdGen on Fri May 27, 2022 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 4:08 pm

Well, well, well. This is pretty embarrassing for Qatar as a whole, in my opinion. Time to make this go away, along with AAB.
 
Gar1G
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 4:26 pm

3rdGen wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.


They may be fed up, but there are bigger geopolitical interests at play too - Qatar is quite close with France with already big investments so its in both countries interests to have their major companies working together again.

It seemed from the Reuters article at the end that politicians were keeping an eye but not intervening just yet.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 4:36 pm

3rdGen wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.

Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.
 
Opus99
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 4:38 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.

Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.

I don’t think it’s illegal. Airbus is well within their rights to refuse to do business with a customer
 
Duke91
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 5:29 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.

Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.


Air india recently showed interests in QR A350k, as well as Lufthansa? So in the shareholders interest, they may want sell them at a higher margin. Both QR and Airbus wins in that case
 
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enzo011
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 5:41 pm

The big loser could be AAB. France is very much yearning for a closer relationship to Qatar. Kylian Mbappe has signed a new contract, massive contract, to stay with the Qatar owned football club in Paris. Macron is said to have had word to make this happen. He may have bitten off a bigger piece that he can chew. I don't think France or Macron can make Airbus sell aircraft to Qatar, but I know the ruler can make QR buy aircraft from Airbus.

That is something Al Baker may not have thought through and could mean his position becomes untenable if he is a hurdle to a positive relationship for Qatar.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 6:42 pm

Think it’s pretty far fetched linking the contract extension of Mbappe with Airbus selling aircraft to QR. The influence of the French state on Airbus is also being exaggerated in numerous posts on this thread; that’s quite simply not how the cooking crumbles.

Having QR as a customer is a constant battle and often deeply frustrating. But money’s money, and QR is for better or worse considered a prestige customer. If the relationship can be sorted, while at the same time sending a shot across the bow of Boeing (and below the waterline of the 777X) and positioning the A350F as the large freighter of the future, Airbus will without hesitation enter a new contract and let bygones be bygones. Airbus is a business run by professionals; QR is a vanity project run by a megalomaniac.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 8:00 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Think it’s pretty far fetched linking the contract extension of Mbappe with Airbus selling aircraft to QR. The influence of the French state on Airbus is also being exaggerated in numerous posts on this thread; that’s quite simply not how the cooking crumbles.


Exactly. The French government only owns a little above 10% of Airbus. The belief that they somehow still have a large amount of leverage over the company is a common and die-hard misconception.

Having QR as a customer is a constant battle and often deeply frustrating. But money’s money, and QR is for better or worse considered a prestige customer. If the relationship can be sorted, while at the same time sending a shot across the bow of Boeing (and below the waterline of the 777X) and positioning the A350F as the large freighter of the future, Airbus will without hesitation enter a new contract and let bygones be bygones. Airbus is a business run by professionals; QR is a vanity project run by a megalomaniac.


While I agree that Airbus will mend these ties and will start working with QR again in the future, I believe that this escalation was meant as a clear message that they will not tolerate working with arrogant customers with the manners of mercurial toddlers who think so highly of themselves that they believe it's ok to bully their business partners into submission.

I'm really not sure how AAB will emerge out of this. He still answers to people in high places in Qatar and this little failed stunt of his will not have gone unnoticed among them.
He spat the dummy a bit too far this time...
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 8:23 pm

The French authorities might not be able to force Airbus to sell aircraft (saying they don't have influence is far fetched, though), however the Qatari authorities certainly can have QR do whatever they want. And it's true that Qatar is heavily invested in France, in fact they have former president Sarkozy in their pocket.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 8:49 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Airbus is well within their rights to refuse to do business with a customer


They don't have to refuse to do business with QR, they can simply offer pricing that will ensure QR goes elsewhere.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 9:10 pm

Or simply not respond to a RFP.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 9:38 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
A deal should be doable, something along the lines of “we’ll reinstate the A321 order, and you’ll cancel the 777XF order in place of an order for the same amount of A350F’s as a sign of, you know, your unwavering support of the aircraft."


I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.

Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.


Airbus don't sell to Ryanair ;)
 
xl0hr
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 10:03 pm

A neat A350F order will be sure to help A forget all the pain that QR caused. "Such a vote of confidence in the next generation freighter based on the most modern widebody" PR people will say at A. At QR, PR people will "thank Airbus for coming forward with the root cause analysis and the prefect fix which will allow QR to maintain and expand its winning fleet with the best product"

All to say, if QR pays and orders enough, everyone will sell it as a win.

On the political side of things: don't forget that Qatar is an important supplier of LNG to Europe now that Russia is very surprisingly not the most reliable partner to single-source energy from as apparently everyone thought. That for sure will play a role. Lobbying goes both ways. You give me credit/lax grandfathering/etc I give you jobs/exports/etc
 
accentra
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 pm

There are huge geopolitical imperatives at work here. Just look at Qatar's order for French Rafales. In my opinion, that's why AAB has really miscalculated this time. There's so much more at stake for Qatar than an individual's tantrums!
 
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zkojq
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Fri May 27, 2022 11:51 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The influence of the French state on Airbus is also being exaggerated in numerous posts on this thread; that’s quite simply not how the cooking crumbles.

:checkmark:

B777LRF wrote:
Having QR as a customer is a constant battle and often deeply frustrating. But money’s money, and QR is for better or worse considered a prestige customer. If the relationship can be sorted, while at the same time sending a shot across the bow of Boeing (and below the waterline of the 777X) and positioning the A350F as the large freighter of the future, Airbus will without hesitation enter a new contract and let bygones be bygones. Airbus is a business run by professionals; QR is a vanity project run by a megalomaniac.


Agreed. If QR is allowed to save face here and walk away with their head held high, the problem will just be kicked down the road and in a few years time we'll all be hearing the same moaning from AAB about A321neos....then A350neos etc.

I think Airbus's relationship with QR will only continue if QR has new leadership.

Airbus has strong backlogs in their narrowbody and widebody programs and aren't desperate. Let AAB entrust his airline's future to Boeing. :lol:

scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Airbus is well within their rights to refuse to do business with a customer


They don't have to refuse to do business with QR, they can simply offer pricing that will ensure QR goes elsewhere.


I always wonder to what extent this is the case already in terms of both OEMs baking an "AAB factor" into pricing for QR RFPs. IE helping to factor in the cost of him rejecting airplanes or otherwise dithering and delaying taking delivery of them as he throws around his weight and makes sure that he is given special treatment.

With that in mind it would be genuinely interesting to know what the difference is in terms of the price paid for a 77W/A359 of similar delivery dates between QR and someone like SQ and CX.

Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific have very high standards, but when an OEM signs a sales contract with them, they know that the carriers aren't going to run a micrometer over the galley floor and try to reject delivery because the flooring is marginally thicker between L1/R1 and further back in the plane....(or whatever other excuse that could be pulled)
 
mig17
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 1:26 am

There are two different negociations incomming between Qatar Airways and Airbus. The resolution of the "A350 crisis" to drop the lawsuits is one thing. The future of the relation between Airbus and QR is another. QR may want to link both, but considaring Airbus seems to have now the highground, It is unlikely.

To make the A350 case go away, Qatar Airways will have to resume taking delivery of the planes and pay for them and all remaining penalties. QR will also have to finance itself the return into service of the grounded frames.

For Airbus and Qatar Airways continuing to do business beyond the current A350 order, it will take a lot of convincing from QR to get Airbus onboard. Airbus will want both assurances that acceptance of new frames by QR will not cause trouble and a very big carrot to bite. The 50 A321neo alone will not be enough for Airbus who already has a full orderbook for the type. And now that QR has firmed it 777-8F order for 34 planes, it seems difficult to switch to A350F. Seems in it's precipitation to show QR could do without Airbus, AAB has done another mistake ... So unless they need more pax A350 or want to try the A330neo or are ready to order 200 A321 neo, they don't have a big enough carrot to bring Airbus back onbord.
 
Pelly
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 5:22 am

3rdGen wrote:
https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2022/May/a350-statement-qatarairways.html?activeTag=Press-releases

Things seemed to be getting very confusing. QR have released a statement claiming that they are very pleased with the decision. Specifically, the desire to speed up the trial to decide on the 20 grounded aircraft. But according to the Reuters article there that trial will only take place in June of next year! So that’s another year with the aircraft parked up on the ground.



According to FlightGlobal's coverage, Airbus wanted the trial to start not earlier than January 2024 and take 10-12 weeks "given the complexity and the likely number of witnesses", while QR wanted a March 2023 trial, and for it to run on an expedited schedule.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/j ... 28.article
 
Pelly
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 5:30 am

enzo011 wrote:

We entered into this process to secure an expedited trial and early disclosure from Airbus that will give us an insight into the true nature of surface degradation affecting the A350s. We are extremely pleased to have secured these in today’s judgement. We will finally be able assess the cause of the damage to our aircraft and the expedited trial will provide a swift resolution of this unprecedented dispute.


Get out found. If QR settles with Airbus in a few months time they will claim they have gotten what they were looking for all along, root cause analysis and they are happy with the fixes proposed and Airbus provided it to them due to the disclosure of the court case. Whether this would be what happened or not, Airbus will gladly allow QR to spin it this way with an order to show how satisfied QR is and how confident they are in the products. QR gets to save face and Airbus gets to sell their aircraft. That is my prediction in any case.


I agree that the documents shared during disclosure would help the case along settlement, not only the root cause analysis but design decisions etc.

"thousands of confidential documents likely to come under the microscope during the trial as two of the industry's most powerful players battle in open court."

"the full trial is expected to embrace both the A350 and A321neo contracts and explore technical and commercial decisons dating back to Qatar Airways' agreement to launch the A350 as its largest customer in 2007"


https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-05-26/
 
Pelly
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 5:37 am

kayik wrote:
I am really impressed with the judge. It is highly likely that he has already formed an opinion but chose to give a year to both parties for reconciliation. It seems that he did not want to interfere with a multi billion dollar dispute.


The judge issued an interim ruling that gives a bit more color to his opinion so far, maybe one of the users can post it here. The interim ruling in my opinion gives motivation for both sides to settle.

The Times quoted the interim ruling:

[the patching was] “appropriate [as] it deals with the symptoms of the condition, not the condition itself. The condition itself cannot be rectified by, for example, applying some yet further coating, with or without the paintwork being removed”. He said that it followed “as a matter of logic” that the peeling paint had “resulted from the design of the aircraft so far as the relevant materials are concerned”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/long ... -bztql0nvf
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 8:33 am

Pelly wrote:
kayik wrote:
I am really impressed with the judge. It is highly likely that he has already formed an opinion but chose to give a year to both parties for reconciliation. It seems that he did not want to interfere with a multi billion dollar dispute.


The judge issued an interim ruling that gives a bit more color to his opinion so far, maybe one of the users can post it here. The interim ruling in my opinion gives motivation for both sides to settle.

The Times quoted the interim ruling:

[the patching was] “appropriate [as] it deals with the symptoms of the condition, not the condition itself. The condition itself cannot be rectified by, for example, applying some yet further coating, with or without the paintwork being removed”. He said that it followed “as a matter of logic” that the peeling paint had “resulted from the design of the aircraft so far as the relevant materials are concerned”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/long ... -bztql0nvf


That is not a matter of logic, its like saying that the MH A330 that was written off by a chemical spill had a design fault no, it came into contact with a chemicals outside of its design specification.
 
Pelly
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 9:08 am

BoeingVista wrote:

That is not a matter of logic, its like saying that the MH A330 that was written off by a chemical spill had a design fault no, it came into contact with a chemicals outside of its design specification.


This was quoted by The Times from the judge's interim ruling.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 9:18 am

Does anyone have a link to a court website that details the case? Which court is hearing the case?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 9:27 am

mig17 wrote:
And now that QR has firmed it 777-8F order for 34 planes, it seems difficult to switch to A350F.


The 777-8/9, which QR also hold orders for, are at the very least 5 years late. That leaves ample opportunity for QR, or any other 777X customer for that matter, to walk away from their orders. As such, and whilst nothing is ever simple, it shouldn’t be too difficult for QR to cancel the entire 777XF order and replace it with A350F, whilst maintaining the 777-9 orders.
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 9:38 am

Pelly wrote:
The judge issued an interim ruling that gives a bit more color to his opinion so far, maybe one of the users can post it here. The interim ruling in my opinion gives motivation for both sides to settle.


The order has not been published in the public domain as of today.
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 9:47 am

3rdGen wrote:
Does anyone have a link to a court website that details the case? Which court is hearing the case?


It is in the Technology and Construction Court, Case HT-2021-000495 which is a TCC - Part 7 Claim -Technology
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 10:48 am

B777LRF wrote:
mig17 wrote:
And now that QR has firmed it 777-8F order for 34 planes, it seems difficult to switch to A350F.


The 777-8/9, which QR also hold orders for, are at the very least 5 years late. That leaves ample opportunity for QR, or any other 777X customer for that matter, to walk away from their orders. As such, and whilst nothing is ever simple, it shouldn’t be too difficult for QR to cancel the entire 777XF order and replace it with A350F, whilst maintaining the 777-9 orders.


Not likely easy cos new contracts will replace old so the timelines reset.

If it was so easy, qr didn't to need to order stuff and cancel laters on.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 11:38 am

zeke wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
Does anyone have a link to a court website that details the case? Which court is hearing the case?


It is in the Technology and Construction Court, Case HT-2021-000495 which is a TCC - Part 7 Claim -Technology


Thanks
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 11:42 am

B777LRF wrote:
mig17 wrote:
And now that QR has firmed it 777-8F order for 34 planes, it seems difficult to switch to A350F.


The 777-8/9, which QR also hold orders for, are at the very least 5 years late. That leaves ample opportunity for QR, or any other 777X customer for that matter, to walk away from their orders. As such, and whilst nothing is ever simple, it shouldn’t be too difficult for QR to cancel the entire 777XF order and replace it with A350F, whilst maintaining the 777-9 orders.

That very much depends on the contract language. The 777-9 is currently 5 years late. The 777XF is not. The 777XF contract QR signed earlier this year is a new contract.
 
mig17
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 11:56 am

Polot wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
mig17 wrote:
And now that QR has firmed it 777-8F order for 34 planes, it seems difficult to switch to A350F.


The 777-8/9, which QR also hold orders for, are at the very least 5 years late. That leaves ample opportunity for QR, or any other 777X customer for that matter, to walk away from their orders. As such, and whilst nothing is ever simple, it shouldn’t be too difficult for QR to cancel the entire 777XF order and replace it with A350F, whilst maintaining the 777-9 orders.

That very much depends on the contract language. The 777-9 is currently 5 years late. The 777XF is not.

And the 777-8F contract was drafted and firmed in the mean time Boeing was annoncing more delays on the 777-8/9. If one, Boeing hasn't disclosed the new delays to QR before signing this deal including 777-8/9 conversion to 777-8F and almost certainly including credits for the 777-8/9 delays, it could cause legal issue for Boeing, and two, like said just before, this 777-8F order plus conversion is likely to include 777X compensation credits, reseting the hole 777-8/9/F's schedule between QR and Boeing.
If not, it is another screwup by Boeing launching the 777-8F with QR.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 1:46 pm

mig17 wrote:
And the 777-8F contract was drafted and firmed in the mean time Boeing was annoncing more delays on the 777-8/9. If one, Boeing hasn't disclosed the new delays to QR before signing this deal including 777-8/9 conversion to 777-8F and almost certainly including credits for the 777-8/9 delays, it could cause legal issue for Boeing


Surely, even Boeing couldn't be that silly?

Yes, they could. And don't call me Shirley.
 
Breathe
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 2:23 pm

enzo011 wrote:
The big loser could be AAB. France is very much yearning for a closer relationship to Qatar. Kylian Mbappe has signed a new contract, massive contract, to stay with the Qatar owned football club in Paris. Macron is said to have had word to make this happen. He may have bitten off a bigger piece that he can chew. I don't think France or Macron can make Airbus sell aircraft to Qatar, but I know the ruler can make QR buy aircraft from Airbus.

That is something Al Baker may not have thought through and could mean his position becomes untenable if he is a hurdle to a positive relationship for Qatar.

:shock: No offence but trying to link the contract of Mbappe staying at PSG with the A350 dispute between Airbus and Qatar is something straight outta InfoWars! :lol:

Image
 
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enzo011
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 2:37 pm

Breathe wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
The big loser could be AAB. France is very much yearning for a closer relationship to Qatar. Kylian Mbappe has signed a new contract, massive contract, to stay with the Qatar owned football club in Paris. Macron is said to have had word to make this happen. He may have bitten off a bigger piece that he can chew. I don't think France or Macron can make Airbus sell aircraft to Qatar, but I know the ruler can make QR buy aircraft from Airbus.

That is something Al Baker may not have thought through and could mean his position becomes untenable if he is a hurdle to a positive relationship for Qatar.

:shock: No offence but trying to link the contract of Mbappe staying at PSG with the A350 dispute between Airbus and Qatar is something straight outta InfoWars! :lol:

Image



Not linking them, showing how Qatar is investing in France and it is known Macron is trying to foster a closer relationship between the countries as well.

I was also making the point that Macron has no say in Airbus and who they sell to, but the owners of QR and PSG do have a say into what aircraft they buy. Showing who is going to be told what to do and it is not Airbus being told by Macron.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 2:51 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Not linking them, showing how Qatar is investing in France and it is known Macron is trying to foster a closer relationship between the countries as well.

I was also making the point that Macron has no say in Airbus and who they sell to, but the owners of QR and PSG do have a say into what aircraft they buy. Showing who is going to be told what to do and it is not Airbus being told by Macron.


I still don't see the connection ('showing' in your words) you are attempting to make with Qatar investing in France with any of this, Macron, PSG or otherwise.
I certainly don't recall Paris St Germain, a football club, being a major buyer of aircraft. Why are you "making the point" of something which is entirely irrelevant in the first place?
 
Duke91
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 2:58 pm

Vicenza wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
Not linking them, showing how Qatar is investing in France and it is known Macron is trying to foster a closer relationship between the countries as well.

I was also making the point that Macron has no say in Airbus and who they sell to, but the owners of QR and PSG do have a say into what aircraft they buy. Showing who is going to be told what to do and it is not Airbus being told by Macron.


I still don't see the connection ('showing' in your words) you are attempting to make with Qatar investing in France with any of this, Macron, PSG or otherwise.
I certainly don't recall Paris St Germain, a football club, being a major buyer of aircraft. Why are you "making the point" of something which is entirely irrelevant in the first place?


I mean, Qatar owns both PSG and QR. So the connection is not too far-fetched.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 3:08 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
3rdGen wrote:

I think you underestimate how fed up Airbus are with QR. This is a company that happily canceled a multi billion dollar contract with QR. The only way I see them ever doing business with QR ever again is if they are forced to by their government. The reality is that Airbus order book is filled up for the foreseeable future and the headache that QR has caused them on this issue and others previously is not worth the money.

Airbus are sitting pretty. Boeing are in turmoil. Unfortunately for the customer at this juncture in time you really don't want to be upsetting pretty much the only manufacturer that is at all reliable. AAB and MOL have both done just that. Let's see how their companies get along.

Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.


Airbus don't sell to Ryanair ;)

Airbus never refused to sell to Ryanair, Ryanair refused to buy Airbus planes at Airbus prices
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 3:29 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Airbus will most likely happily welcome QR back as a customer... provided AAB is gone and/or not allowed to speak publicly.
Airbus cannot refuse to sell their planes to QR if QR is willing to pay the price: I believe this is simply illegal, and in any case it would against their duty to the shareholders which is to generate profit.


Airbus don't sell to Ryanair ;)

Airbus never refused to sell to Ryanair, Ryanair refused to buy Airbus planes at Airbus prices


Exactly, that Airbus refused is a myth that Ryanair-haters+Airbus-Fanboys absolutely love.
At a good price (for Airbus) they would love to sell airplanes to Ryanair.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 3:48 pm

Any ideas why some of QR's A350s are NOT showing this problem? Maybe too new?

I ask because QR is the only airline for which we know which aircraft are affected, and which are not, or not yet, because if affected QR would have visibly grounded them. In all other cases the issue seems to be being handled "under the radar" between airline and Airbus, so we have no idea how many are affected and what the characteristics of their affected frames are in terms of age, cycles, routes etc.
 
guillermohs
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 5:28 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Any ideas why some of QR's A350s are NOT showing this problem? Maybe too new?

I ask because QR is the only airline for which we know which aircraft are affected, and which are not, or not yet, because if affected QR would have visibly grounded them. In all other cases the issue seems to be being handled "under the radar" between airline and Airbus, so we have no idea how many are affected and what the characteristics of their affected frames are in terms of age, cycles, routes etc.


I'm gonna take a wild guess: the active A350 are being properly maintained, while the grounded ones were just left to rot in the desert in order to provide "evidence" in court. Happy to be proven wrong though. :duck:
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus / Qatar A350 dispute - Airbus filed defence and counter-claim

Sat May 28, 2022 5:36 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Any ideas why some of QR's A350s are NOT showing this problem? Maybe too new?

I ask because QR is the only airline for which we know which aircraft are affected, and which are not, or not yet, because if affected QR would have visibly grounded them. In all other cases the issue seems to be being handled "under the radar" between airline and Airbus, so we have no idea how many are affected and what the characteristics of their affected frames are in terms of age, cycles, routes etc.

Which problems? The ones that were disclosed via photos? Or the ones that caused the grounding based on nobody-but-QCAA-and-QR-know?

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