YEGFlyer wrote:

I actually think it would be kind of cool to have 5-6 major airlines in Canada. It would certainly change the landscape, might result in some new hubs in unexpected places, a lot of creativity perhaps in flight offerings. I actually hope all of the new entrants survive. Best of luck.

IndianicWorld wrote:

There are only limit opportunities available before the airlines start flying the same routes.

IndianicWorld wrote:

To me looking from afar, the Canadian market will struggle to sustain this level of airline service.

There are only limit opportunities available before the airlines start flying the same routes. This is not Europe or the US with many cities and alternative airports to tap into, but becomes more about competing for the same slice of the cake .

It’s great to see more competition and different airline liveries to spot but ultimately there becomes a point that there really is only limited scope to grow.

Acey wrote:

IndianicWorld wrote:

There are only limit opportunities available before the airlines start flying the same routes.

The slice of cake shrinks even smaller with the near universal commitment to the 7M8 which really hampers the ability to serve smaller markets. Flair just tried YEG-YQQ on 7M8 and failed miserably.

Dominion301 wrote:

Acey wrote:

IndianicWorld wrote:

There are only limit opportunities available before the airlines start flying the same routes.

Good example of how PD is well-positioned to be “EastJet” for lack of a better term with far fewer seats to fill per flight. Plus a +15 year reputation behind them.

9252fly wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Acey wrote:

Good example of how PD is well-positioned to be “EastJet” for lack of a better term with far fewer seats to fill per flight. Plus a +15 year reputation behind them.

Yup, WS will have created a vacuum and an opening for PD. Who knows, maybe WS and PD will codeshare with each other in future, each agreeing to having their own backyard. TS already codeshares with both, so good for them too. I often watch the ongoing subtle changes in Canadian aviation, everything from regional flying to domestic, transborder and international, always intrigued and fascinated by the evolution.

rj777 wrote:

any pics of the outside of the planes?

skymiler wrote:

I grew up 12 km from YHM and I used to fly in and out on Nordair to YUL and PIT. I am in Hamilton every few weeks and have watched the Golden Horseshoe expand dramatically. I use either YYZ or BUF and each has its drawbacks not only for me but many others. For YYZ there is the choking traffic on the QEW and 403. I use the GO bus but even it can be delayed. YYZ Terminal 3 for the US destinations is 3rd world at best. For BUF a rental car is needed.
If you draw line west from Burlington ONT all the way to London and follow the South shore of the lake there is a large catchment area that I suspect would love solid service at YHM
YHM is a great freight airport but really lacks in passenger service. WestJet was great -- until they bailed out for YYZ
Is this a case of "build it and they will come"?

Skywatcher wrote:

skymiler wrote:

I grew up 12 km from YHM and I used to fly in and out on Nordair to YUL and PIT. I am in Hamilton every few weeks and have watched the Golden Horseshoe expand dramatically. I use either YYZ or BUF and each has its drawbacks not only for me but many others. For YYZ there is the choking traffic on the QEW and 403. I use the GO bus but even it can be delayed. YYZ Terminal 3 for the US destinations is 3rd world at best. For BUF a rental car is needed.
If you draw line west from Burlington ONT all the way to London and follow the South shore of the lake there is a large catchment area that I suspect would love solid service at YHM
YHM is a great freight airport but really lacks in passenger service. WestJet was great -- until they bailed out for YYZ
Is this a case of "build it and they will come"?

It's one of the great mysteries of Canadian air transport why YHM just can't thrive.I feel that Lethbridge AB, Sherbrooke QC, Brandon MB, Niagra Falls ON and 3 Rivers QC are other examples of under served markets.

Skywatcher wrote:

skymiler wrote:

I grew up 12 km from YHM and I used to fly in and out on Nordair to YUL and PIT. I am in Hamilton every few weeks and have watched the Golden Horseshoe expand dramatically. I use either YYZ or BUF and each has its drawbacks not only for me but many others. For YYZ there is the choking traffic on the QEW and 403. I use the GO bus but even it can be delayed. YYZ Terminal 3 for the US destinations is 3rd world at best. For BUF a rental car is needed.
If you draw line west from Burlington ONT all the way to London and follow the South shore of the lake there is a large catchment area that I suspect would love solid service at YHM
YHM is a great freight airport but really lacks in passenger service. WestJet was great -- until they bailed out for YYZ
Is this a case of "build it and they will come"?

It's one of the great mysteries of Canadian air transport why YHM just can't thrive.I feel that Lethbridge AB, Sherbrooke QC, Brandon MB, Niagra Falls ON and 3 Rivers QC are other examples of under served markets.

Dominion301 wrote:

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

WS did fly YYZ-YBR, it ended a couple years before Covid.

PW flew a daily 737 YYC-YBR-YYZ-YBR-YYC, but those were the days before deregulation. As they were not allowed YYZ-YYC/YEG with their new 767s, they were given the route through YBR. It was never intended to carry local YBR passengers, as the vast majority were flying YYZ-YYC. The route was then routed through YQT, (YYC-YBR-YQT-YYZ) then cancelled.

Dominion301 wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

skymiler wrote:

I grew up 12 km from YHM and I used to fly in and out on Nordair to YUL and PIT. I am in Hamilton every few weeks and have watched the Golden Horseshoe expand dramatically. I use either YYZ or BUF and each has its drawbacks not only for me but many others. For YYZ there is the choking traffic on the QEW and 403. I use the GO bus but even it can be delayed. YYZ Terminal 3 for the US destinations is 3rd world at best. For BUF a rental car is needed.
If you draw line west from Burlington ONT all the way to London and follow the South shore of the lake there is a large catchment area that I suspect would love solid service at YHM
YHM is a great freight airport but really lacks in passenger service. WestJet was great -- until they bailed out for YYZ
Is this a case of "build it and they will come"?

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

9252fly wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

WS did indeed operate seasonal summer service between YBR - YYZ, it was 2016 two, or three times a week. Yes, PW did operate YVR - YLW - YYC -YBR - YQT - YYZ 6 times a week in the mid 1980s.

jimbo737 wrote:

JetLines massive uphill battle to last beyond Cdn Thanksgiving is evidenced by its public announcement of their having closed a 2 year c$1m / us$772,000 loan at 7% that included a seat on their board and 50,000 In dilutive founders stock.

C$1m is a rounding error in the airline business.

Having to give up shares and a board seat for that sort of tiny loan does not bode well.

Pre launch, WS’s original investors who put up $7.5m of paid-in equity had one seat on the WS BoD.

OTP, who put in $10m equity got one seat on the BoD

A BoD seat for a 7% $1m loan that barely covers 2 months leasing cost of an A320 and the associated maintenance reserve payments per block hour that frame should be flying per month is as clear a piece of evidence there is as to the woes facing this 10 year old startup who have yet to generate an asm.

Note dateline of story below……

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... del-142422

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

I’d take the under, but if I win, do I get a Jetlines BoD seat too?

jimbo737 wrote:

JetLines massive uphill battle to last beyond Cdn Thanksgiving is evidenced by its public announcement of their having closed a 2 year c$1m / us$772,000 loan at 7% that included a seat on their board and 50,000 In dilutive founders stock.

C$1m is a rounding error in the airline business.

Having to give up shares and a board seat for that sort of tiny loan does not bode well.

Pre launch, WS’s original investors who put up $7.5m of paid-in equity had one seat on the WS BoD.

OTP, who put in $10m equity got one seat on the BoD

A BoD seat for a 7% $1m loan that barely covers 2 months leasing cost of an A320 and the associated maintenance reserve payments per block hour that frame should be flying per month is as clear a piece of evidence there is as to the woes facing this 10 year old startup who have yet to generate an asm.

Note dateline of story below……

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... del-142422

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

I’d take the under, but if I win, do I get a Jetlines BoD seat too?

YEGFlyer wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

I wonder if, despite the new entrants in the market, there is undercapacity on trunk routes driven by AC/WS duopoly

YEGFlyer wrote:

I did some dummy bookings, seat maps are currently 100% open on this route. Not a single seat has been selected yet that I could see.

YEGFlyer wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

JetLines massive uphill battle to last beyond Cdn Thanksgiving is evidenced by its public announcement of their having closed a 2 year c$1m / us$772,000 loan at 7% that included a seat on their board and 50,000 In dilutive founders stock.

C$1m is a rounding error in the airline business.

Having to give up shares and a board seat for that sort of tiny loan does not bode well.

Pre launch, WS’s original investors who put up $7.5m of paid-in equity had one seat on the WS BoD.

OTP, who put in $10m equity got one seat on the BoD

A BoD seat for a 7% $1m loan that barely covers 2 months leasing cost of an A320 and the associated maintenance reserve payments per block hour that frame should be flying per month is as clear a piece of evidence there is as to the woes facing this 10 year old startup who have yet to generate an asm.

Note dateline of story below……

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... del-142422

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

I’d take the under, but if I win, do I get a Jetlines BoD seat too?

I am afraid your track record on predicting airline failure isn't so great at the present moment.

That being said I agree that this will be a hard slog for Canada Jetlines.

I wonder if, despite the new entrants in the market, there is undercapacity on trunk routes driven by AC/WS duopoly (witness recent retrenchment by WS). We'll see how they do on YYC. Would like to see them start YEG too, I am sure it isn't far behind.

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

JetLines massive uphill battle to last beyond Cdn Thanksgiving is evidenced by its public announcement of their having closed a 2 year c$1m / us$772,000 loan at 7% that included a seat on their board and 50,000 In dilutive founders stock.

C$1m is a rounding error in the airline business.

Having to give up shares and a board seat for that sort of tiny loan does not bode well.

Pre launch, WS’s original investors who put up $7.5m of paid-in equity had one seat on the WS BoD.

OTP, who put in $10m equity got one seat on the BoD

A BoD seat for a 7% $1m loan that barely covers 2 months leasing cost of an A320 and the associated maintenance reserve payments per block hour that frame should be flying per month is as clear a piece of evidence there is as to the woes facing this 10 year old startup who have yet to generate an asm.

Note dateline of story below……

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... del-142422

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

I’d take the under, but if I win, do I get a Jetlines BoD seat too?

I am afraid your track record on predicting airline failure isn't so great at the present moment.

That being said I agree that this will be a hard slog for Canada Jetlines.

I wonder if, despite the new entrants in the market, there is undercapacity on trunk routes driven by AC/WS duopoly (witness recent retrenchment by WS). We'll see how they do on YYC. Would like to see them start YEG too, I am sure it isn't far behind.

Canada Jetlines should do okay in on Calgary YYC- Toronto YYZ route as 2-3x weekly on Airbus A320. As YYC has 1 of the larger Domestic passenger demand year round in Canada.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/c ... 92.article

Canada Jetlines next destination in Western Canada after YYC is likely Vancouver YVR, before Edmonton YEG.

jimbo737 wrote:

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

Canada Jetlines should do okay in on Calgary YYC- Toronto YYZ route as 2-3x weekly on Airbus A320. As YYC has 1 of the larger Domestic passenger demand year round in Canada.

Dominion301 wrote:

Jetlines are making it up on the fly. Originally Monday-to-Friday to YWG and YQM out of YYZ, then a reduction and sporadic schedule to both places and now twice weekly to YYC. They'll be lucky to make it to Christmas with so little revenue coming in. Even a "power-by-the-hour" contract on their 320 will leave them losing buckets of cash...unless the C-suite is run by volunteers.

Dominion301 wrote:

Jetlines are making it up on the fly. Originally Monday-to-Friday to YWG and YQM out of YYZ, then a reduction and sporadic schedule to both places and now twice weekly to YYC. They'll be lucky to make it to Christmas with so little revenue coming in. Even a "power-by-the-hour" contract on their 320 will leave them losing buckets of cash...unless the C-suite is run by volunteers.

9252fly wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Jetlines are making it up on the fly. Originally Monday-to-Friday to YWG and YQM out of YYZ, then a reduction and sporadic schedule to both places and now twice weekly to YYC. They'll be lucky to make it to Christmas with so little revenue coming in. Even a "power-by-the-hour" contract on their 320 will leave them losing buckets of cash...unless the C-suite is run by volunteers.

They now have their AOC, they'll burn as little capital as possible to maintain the certificate, which is Canada Jetlines most valuable asset. The question everyone should be asking is, what's the plot? I think they have a plan, it's just not apparent yet.

YEGFlyer wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

JetLines massive uphill battle to last beyond Cdn Thanksgiving is evidenced by its public announcement of their having closed a 2 year c$1m / us$772,000 loan at 7% that included a seat on their board and 50,000 In dilutive founders stock.

C$1m is a rounding error in the airline business.

Having to give up shares and a board seat for that sort of tiny loan does not bode well.

Pre launch, WS’s original investors who put up $7.5m of paid-in equity had one seat on the WS BoD.

OTP, who put in $10m equity got one seat on the BoD

A BoD seat for a 7% $1m loan that barely covers 2 months leasing cost of an A320 and the associated maintenance reserve payments per block hour that frame should be flying per month is as clear a piece of evidence there is as to the woes facing this 10 year old startup who have yet to generate an asm.

Note dateline of story below……

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... del-142422

Will they break Roots Air’s 32 day record Of futility as the fastest Cdn new entrant to Implode after launch?

I’d take the under, but if I win, do I get a Jetlines BoD seat too?

I am afraid your track record on predicting airline failure isn't so great at the present moment.

That being said I agree that this will be a hard slog for Canada Jetlines.

I wonder if, despite the new entrants in the market, there is undercapacity on trunk routes driven by AC/WS duopoly (witness recent retrenchment by WS). We'll see how they do on YYC. Would like to see them start YEG too, I am sure it isn't far behind.

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

wjv04 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

I am puzzled as to why WS has never offered a summer seasonal YBR-YYZ to serve all eastern points. Didn’t PW have a daily YYZ-YBR-YYC back in the day?

6500 foot runway attached to a population (at the time) of less then 40,000. Doesn't really tick the boxes for a profitable operation, not with a jet.

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Jetlines are making it up on the fly. Originally Monday-to-Friday to YWG and YQM out of YYZ, then a reduction and sporadic schedule to both places and now twice weekly to YYC. They'll be lucky to make it to Christmas with so little revenue coming in. Even a "power-by-the-hour" contract on their 320 will leave them losing buckets of cash...unless the C-suite is run by volunteers.

Yes & actually Calgary YYC - Toronto YYZ route on Canada Jetlines is up to 4x weekly from October 13. But it 2x weekly to start off in September 2022.

Dominion301 wrote:

Jetlines are making it up on the fly. Originally Monday-to-Friday to YWG and YQM out of YYZ, then a reduction and sporadic schedule to both places and now twice weekly to YYC. They'll be lucky to make it to Christmas with so little revenue coming in. Even a "power-by-the-hour" contract on their 320 will leave them losing buckets of cash...unless the C-suite is run by volunteers.

YEGFlyer wrote:

Boy what a happy bunch we have here.

I still would like to see them succeed, we need diversity in the industry for many reasons. Who knows, they could grow up to do something great. I daresay that "Canada Jetlines" is a better sounding name for an airline than many of the other recent launches.