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NZ321
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:18 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Speaking of WBs doing domestic runs, do others recall the DC10 that used to do a daily(?) run AKL-CHC at 0810/0930 and then a CHC-SYD run, with another aircraft returning from SYD in the afternoon and running CHC-AKL 1740/1900 (less sure about this timing). I think that must have been in the mid-70s.


Yes indeed. Was booked on one in 1980? AKL-CHC and we had an aborted take off at AKL due to engine problems; the pilots tried revving the engines while we sat on the taxi-way for a bit, and then we returned to the terminal. Ended up flying down to CHC on a 737. Still had plenty of other chances to sample the NZ DC10 but not domestic.
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:21 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Toenga wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Must have been the late '70s/early '80s as the merger with NAC didn't happen until 1978. Any which way, it also effectively gave a full WB service from CHC to and from North America.


I seem to recall there was a period when a 767 flIew a peak hour WLG to AKL morning flight. I am not sure of what the preceding segment was, but most likely AKL to WLG. Late 1970's or early 80's


Wow, the 767 is older than i thought. NZ got their first one in 1985 and it entered service in 1982 in the US.


Yes - I flew this route twice on a 762 - AKL-WLG; was my only flight on NBD.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:42 am

Kiwings wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Speaking of WBs doing domestic runs, do others recall the DC10 that used to do a daily(?) run AKL-CHC at 0810/0930 and then a CHC-SYD run, with another aircraft returning from SYD in the afternoon and running CHC-AKL 1740/1900 (less sure about this timing). I think that must have been in the mid-70s.


http://www.departedflights.com/AKL80intro.html

Daily DC10 CHC-AKL at the times you mentioned in March 1980. Not sure on the AKL-CHC timing. NZ228 interestingly, thought it would have been a TE flight number given it was a wide body.

There was a Wednesday 747 with the same timing and flight number in July 1983, off a Tasman run I would say.


The DC10 flight was introduced soon after the Air NZ/NAC merger. It was a purely domestic flight so carried the NZ designator. So would have been about 1978/79 when introduced.


https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimage ... z75-03.jpg

Here is an old timetable image of the DC10 era from 1975
TE562 went on a Friday CHC AKL HNL LAX there was a second DC10 flight TE556 that also went to LAX. So two for a Friday back then.
It returned back to CHC on Sunday as TE555. There are other old routes listed eg AKL SYD HKG/SIN.
 
NZ801
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:15 am

First QF flight into CHC tomorrow - SYD-CHC. That’s all until MEL and BNE start next month.

Of course I’m ignoring the QF freighter flights when I say QF first flight tomorrow.
 
GW54
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:56 am

NZ321 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Toenga wrote:

I seem to recall there was a period when a 767 flIew a peak hour WLG to AKL morning flight. I am not sure of what the preceding segment was, but most likely AKL to WLG. Late 1970's or early 80's


Wow, the 767 is older than i thought. NZ got their first one in 1985 and it entered service in 1982 in the US.


Yes - I flew this route twice on a 762 - AKL-WLG; was my only flight on NBD.


I was working for Air NZ at the time For a period it did AKL/WLG/AKL/CHC/WLG/AKL. It was more often than not operated by the ex China Airlines 762, NBF and NBH from memory.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:25 am

GW54 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

Wow, the 767 is older than i thought. NZ got their first one in 1985 and it entered service in 1982 in the US.


Yes - I flew this route twice on a 762 - AKL-WLG; was my only flight on NBD.


I was working for Air NZ at the time For a period it did AKL/WLG/AKL/CHC/WLG/AKL. It was more often than not operated by the ex China Airlines 762, NBF and NBH from memory.


Did those aircraft have a different configuration? How many configurations were there on the 762s?
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:29 am

GW54 wrote:
I was working for Air NZ at the time For a period it did AKL/WLG/AKL/CHC/WLG/AKL. It was more often than not operated by the ex China Airlines 762, NBF and NBH from memory.

That's the routing I remember from 25 Aug 1987. The CHC-WLG NZ576 sector departed CHC at 1515 and the aircraft that day was NBA or NBB. There may have been a change of flight number at WLG. I also worked for Air NZ at the time and was on staff travel. I now recall the WLG-AKL 762 flight was embargoed for staff and I got a later 732 WLG-AKL at 1830. So, the 762 would have departed WLG between 1700 and 1730. The CEO and some other execs were on board in J class but that was work related travel as they had attended the Mount Cook AGM. I had a window seat in the second row of economy and the takeoff from CHC was the steepest I have ever experienced.

PA515
 
GW54
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:25 pm

PA515 wrote:
GW54 wrote:
I was working for Air NZ at the time For a period it did AKL/WLG/AKL/CHC/WLG/AKL. It was more often than not operated by the ex China Airlines 762, NBF and NBH from memory.

That's the routing I remember from 25 Aug 1987. The CHC-WLG NZ576 sector departed CHC at 1515 and the aircraft that day was NBA or NBB. There may have been a change of flight number at WLG. I also worked for Air NZ at the time and was on staff travel. I now recall the WLG-AKL 762 flight was embargoed for staff and I got a later 732 WLG-AKL at 1830. So, the 762 would have departed WLG between 1700 and 1730. The CEO and some other execs were on board in J class but that was work related travel as they had attended the Mount Cook AGM. I had a window seat in the second row of economy and the takeoff from CHC was the steepest I have ever experienced.

PA515


I worked in Flight Ops.It was a requirement that we kept up to date with procedures through regular Flight Deck 'Familiarisation' rides. The 767 was relatively new so was a favorite for a while. Most 'exciting' ride I every had was on a 737-200 with -15 engines. It was a ferry flight WLG-CHC with only three onboard. The Captain gave a real demo of just what those aircraft were capable of. Those 200 series with the -15 engines were a little pocket rocket.
 
Sprite8806
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:02 am

Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead
 
GW54
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:09 pm

Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.
 
Sprite8806
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:25 am

So a Nauru Airlines 737-300 came to WLG today. Any chance of Nauru doing scheduled services to WLG?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:28 am

GW54 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.


Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:30 am

Sprite8806 wrote:
So a Nauru Airlines 737-300 came to WLG today. Any chance of Nauru doing scheduled services to WLG?


No. I am guessing this was a freighter? They would service AKL first.
 
mrkerr7474
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
So a Nauru Airlines 737-300 came to WLG today. Any chance of Nauru doing scheduled services to WLG?


No. I am guessing this was a freighter? They would service AKL first.


I'd probably say they were used as a charter by the Wellington Phoenix coming back to Wellington today from Sydney
 
Sprite8806
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:16 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.


Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


So you propose they close the 3rd busiest airport in New Zealand and re locate it to an Air Force base near Bulls? Yeah no. You think any tourist is going to want to fly to an airport in a small town in basically the middle of nowhere, and then have to take a train all the way to Wellington? How is that more efficient in any way than just flying to Wellington and driving or catching a bus through the city? It's not like it takes a long time to get from the airport to pretty much anywhere in Wellington, it's not a very big city. That would be a terrible idea lmao
 
NZ801
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:35 am

Sprite8806 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
GW54 wrote:

Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.


Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


So you propose they close the 3rd busiest airport in New Zealand and re locate it to an Air Force base near Bulls? Yeah no. You think any tourist is going to want to fly to an airport in a small town in basically the middle of nowhere, and then have to take a train all the way to Wellington? How is that more efficient in any way than just flying to Wellington and driving or catching a bus through the city? It's not like it takes a long time to get from the airport to pretty much anywhere in Wellington, it's not a very big city. That would be a terrible idea lmao


I’m not sure many tourists actually fly to Wellington. They fly to CHC or AKL and then make their way to WLG by other means.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:34 am

NZ801 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


So you propose they close the 3rd busiest airport in New Zealand and re locate it to an Air Force base near Bulls? Yeah no. You think any tourist is going to want to fly to an airport in a small town in basically the middle of nowhere, and then have to take a train all the way to Wellington? How is that more efficient in any way than just flying to Wellington and driving or catching a bus through the city? It's not like it takes a long time to get from the airport to pretty much anywhere in Wellington, it's not a very big city. That would be a terrible idea lmao


I’m not sure many tourists actually fly to Wellington. They fly to CHC or AKL and then make their way to WLG by other means.


I've seen quite alot of ads on TV here in Australia recently about Wellington. It had become a pretty trendy short break visit from here pre Covid.

But it certainly doesn't have the tourist traffic of AKL or CHC.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:49 am

mrkerr7474 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
So a Nauru Airlines 737-300 came to WLG today. Any chance of Nauru doing scheduled services to WLG?


No. I am guessing this was a freighter? They would service AKL first.


I'd probably say they were used as a charter by the Wellington Phoenix coming back to Wellington today from Sydney


Thank you for the correction.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:09 pm

NZ801 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


So you propose they close the 3rd busiest airport in New Zealand and re locate it to an Air Force base near Bulls? Yeah no. You think any tourist is going to want to fly to an airport in a small town in basically the middle of nowhere, and then have to take a train all the way to Wellington? How is that more efficient in any way than just flying to Wellington and driving or catching a bus through the city? It's not like it takes a long time to get from the airport to pretty much anywhere in Wellington, it's not a very big city. That would be a terrible idea lmao


I’m not sure many tourists actually fly to Wellington. They fly to CHC or AKL and then make their way to WLG by other means.


40% of the tourists to NZ are from Australia. We can assume about half of them will come from the cities that have direct flights to Wellington, Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast and Brisbane.
The idea of hopping down to Christchurch, or up to Auckland for a days work , from Wellington, via Ohakea, is absurd regardless of how fast any train could become.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:48 pm

Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


I think you'll find it's just a future vision / master plan that'll be changed and adapted over time. It'll gradually be completed in various stages and some of it's already underway.

It's not a start to finish project like a new build is for example.

Having the master plan gives the airport direction around development and growth, without this you end up looking like many American Airports do.

AKL, ZQN, CHC all have 'master plans'.
 
Sprite8806
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:33 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


I think you'll find it's just a future vision / master plan that'll be changed and adapted over time. It'll gradually be completed in various stages and some of it's already underway.

It's not a start to finish project like a new build is for example.

Having the master plan gives the airport direction around development and growth, without this you end up looking like many American Airports do.

AKL, ZQN, CHC all have 'master plans'.


WLG 2040 looks like a very good plan that will definitely bring the airport forward and allow for lot's more growth.
Hasn't AKL 2044 already started?
What is Queenstown's master plan?
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:36 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Sprite8806 wrote:
Any updates on WLG 2040? I really want it to go ahead


Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.


Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


I agree WLG is in a horrible location. Geographically isolated at the southern end of the city, wedged between two hilly areas at the end of a peninsula. Accessible from the city via an aging single lane (each direction) tunnel which is almost always congested. While this is not the only way, it's the main thoroughfare. The entire region From PPQ south need to travel via the CBD and on urban streets to access it and much like Eden Park is in Auckland, it's located in urban WLG and will likely face more restrictions and more complaints around noise as the city grows.

There are proposals to improve the roading infrastructure and public transport and they could explore ferry connections from the CBD and Petone into Evans Bay but there's still a lengthy connection to the terminal and while any services would be in the Wellington Harbor the seas can still be very volatile and unpleasant which brings into question reliability.

There's probably better examples, but I've often looked to SAN as an example of how busy a predominately short haul narrow body airport can get in a confined space.

The issue with Ohakea is the distance in lack of infrastructure. It's give or take 150km north of WLG. Our narrow gauge railway doesn't allow for highspeed trains so we'd need to invest in a dedicated line. Simple math says at 200km/hr to travel 150km it's 45 minutes. Which on a surface seems reasonable but; what's the cost of this?

Transmission gully took close to a decade to build and that's just from Porirua to Paekākāriki at a cost of $1.25B.

A highspeed ralline would also need to cut through some serious terrain and likely end up with a lengthy tunnel into WLG to avoid things like level crossings, steep grade changes and lower curve radius .

Cast your eyes over to the bill for Auckland's CRL and it'd be a fair assumption to ask how many billion the line itself will cost, it won't start with a 1 that's for sure.

All this is forgetting the other physical infrastructure that's required. Electrical, fresh and waste water, roading, terminals, where do employees come from - there's so much to consider.

But with Ohakea, I do believe a centralized lower North Island Airport serving, PMR & WAG, Levin, Foxton, Otaki, perhaps as far south as PPQ and even Ohakune in winter could be a thing. Is there any interest? Put simply. NO.

What's the solution to WLG? - Probably status quo to be honest. It'll just become an expensive airport.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:09 pm

Sprite8806 wrote:
WLG 2040 looks like a very good plan that will definitely bring the airport forward and allow for lot's more growth.
Hasn't AKL 2044 already started?
What is Queenstown's master plan?


AKL has had a master plan since the early 1990's, they just keep refreshing what the future looks like.

ZQN is still talking about their options I believe, obviously there's been a lot of talk around WKA and Tarras but they also announced a halt in construction back in 2020.

Here's a document google found:
https://www.queenstownairport.co.nz/ass ... ptions.pdf

Don't see a master plan as a full start to end construction project, it's more of a high level plan based around projected growth and how the airport plans to expand to meet the market demands.

The very basics of AKL's hasn't changed much, new second runway to the north. Terminals wrapping around the west towards the northern end of the airfield.

We've seen the second runway be extended and current plans are for domestic remain on the southern side as well as physical change in appearances but by in large it's the same basic plan from what was tabled 30 years ago.

There used to be a model near the observation deck many years ago if I recall correctly. I believe this was of the 'future airport state'
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:53 am

Air NZ service to New York may get a boost with Aussie travellers as Qantas may not resume it's NYC services until 2025. It could become daily within a short time.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... until-2025
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:06 am

The model of the future AKL I have a feeling was initially to 2010? AKL is tacky in parts particularly domestic which they keep adding onto, what was the latest there? I know it will be built between the current domestic and international which makes sense with 95% of domestic traffic going south ex AKL. What was the latest timeline for the new terminal?
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:15 am

NZ516 wrote:
Air NZ service to New York may get a boost with Aussie travellers as Qantas may not resume it's NYC services until 2025. It could become daily within a short time.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... until-2025


The question is whether NZ could poach the 'high yield' flyers that are 'willing' to go via AKL for the mean-time, as QF also has the DFW flights from SYD and MEL (from late this year) as an alternative to LAX.

Despite the immigration clearance requirements in the USA airports, DFW is reportedly also easier to transfer than in LAX which may attract some of the JFK bound QF loyalists and high yield flyers for the mean time.
Last edited by SCFlyer on Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:19 am

Barrier Air is upping it's frequency to Whitianga to 3 per each weekday.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/04/ ... mment-form
 
NPL8800
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:21 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
The model of the future AKL I have a feeling was initially to 2010? AKL is tacky in parts particularly domestic which they keep adding onto, what was the latest there? I know it will be built between the current domestic and international which makes sense with 95% of domestic traffic going south ex AKL. What was the latest timeline for the new terminal?


The enabling works have commenced for this project which requires a number of existing structures be removed both at the Eastern end of the international terminal, plus the area in between including a new airside access point. No doubt plenty of underground services will need to be altered as well.

My guess would be between 4-5 years until opening, probably another 1 to 1.5 before there's anything verticaly noticeable on the site.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:24 am

NZ516 wrote:
Air NZ service to New York may get a boost with Aussie travellers as Qantas may not resume it's NYC services until 2025. It could become daily within a short time.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... until-2025


No mention of NZ in that article. However I am quite sure NZ will be looking to build it to daily regardless of what QF do.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:26 am

NPL8800 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
The model of the future AKL I have a feeling was initially to 2010? AKL is tacky in parts particularly domestic which they keep adding onto, what was the latest there? I know it will be built between the current domestic and international which makes sense with 95% of domestic traffic going south ex AKL. What was the latest timeline for the new terminal?


The enabling works have commenced for this project which requires a number of existing structures be removed both at the Eastern end of the international terminal, plus the area in between including a new airside access point. No doubt plenty of underground services will need to be altered as well.

My guess would be between 4-5 years until opening, probably another 1 to 1.5 before there's anything verticaly noticeable on the site.


I did notice that the other day when flying out that there was some work going on.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:07 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Air NZ service to New York may get a boost with Aussie travellers as Qantas may not resume it's NYC services until 2025. It could become daily within a short time.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... until-2025


No mention of NZ in that article. However I am quite sure NZ will be looking to build it to daily regardless of what QF do.


Yes no mention of NZ in the article. I should have phrased it differently that I think it will get a boost in demand. QF has a real shortage of long haul aircraft which is affecting them hard now.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:14 pm

NZ516 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Air NZ service to New York may get a boost with Aussie travellers as Qantas may not resume it's NYC services until 2025. It could become daily within a short time.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... until-2025


No mention of NZ in that article. However I am quite sure NZ will be looking to build it to daily regardless of what QF do.


Yes no mention of NZ in the article. I should have phrased it differently that I think it will get a boost in demand. QF has a real shortage of long haul aircraft which is affecting them hard now.


The bigger issue for QF might be crew, they will still have 1-2 aircraft parked all day at LAX, though to make JFK work they will want SYD/MEL/BNE all connecting and would probably use an A330 ex BNE.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:58 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
GW54 wrote:

Nothing if Guardians of the Bay have their way. Wellington is full minority groups who do everything they can to stop any development of any sort. They are small self interested groups that want Wellington to become a backwater.


Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


I agree WLG is in a horrible location. Geographically isolated at the southern end of the city, wedged between two hilly areas at the end of a peninsula. Accessible from the city via an aging single lane (each direction) tunnel which is almost always congested. While this is not the only way, it's the main thoroughfare. The entire region From PPQ south need to travel via the CBD and on urban streets to access it and much like Eden Park is in Auckland, it's located in urban WLG and will likely face more restrictions and more complaints around noise as the city grows.

There are proposals to improve the roading infrastructure and public transport and they could explore ferry connections from the CBD and Petone into Evans Bay but there's still a lengthy connection to the terminal and while any services would be in the Wellington Harbor the seas can still be very volatile and unpleasant which brings into question reliability.

There's probably better examples, but I've often looked to SAN as an example of how busy a predominately short haul narrow body airport can get in a confined space.

The issue with Ohakea is the distance in lack of infrastructure. It's give or take 150km north of WLG. Our narrow gauge railway doesn't allow for highspeed trains so we'd need to invest in a dedicated line. Simple math says at 200km/hr to travel 150km it's 45 minutes. Which on a surface seems reasonable but; what's the cost of this?

Transmission gully took close to a decade to build and that's just from Porirua to Paekākāriki at a cost of $1.25B.

A highspeed ralline would also need to cut through some serious terrain and likely end up with a lengthy tunnel into WLG to avoid things like level crossings, steep grade changes and lower curve radius .

Cast your eyes over to the bill for Auckland's CRL and it'd be a fair assumption to ask how many billion the line itself will cost, it won't start with a 1 that's for sure.

All this is forgetting the other physical infrastructure that's required. Electrical, fresh and waste water, roading, terminals, where do employees come from - there's so much to consider.

But with Ohakea, I do believe a centralized lower North Island Airport serving, PMR & WAG, Levin, Foxton, Otaki, perhaps as far south as PPQ and even Ohakune in winter could be a thing. Is there any interest? Put simply. NO.

What's the solution to WLG? - Probably status quo to be honest. It'll just become an expensive airport.


The only other spot I can think of to stick an airport closer would be the Wairarapa. Even then you'd need to put a new tunnel or two through the Remutakas and connect it up with SH2 and the rail system.

In general I'd agree with you. I think Wellington will likely become even more a domestic only location with high frequency connections through to Auckland and Christchurch. That distance will likely be one of the early sweet spots for battery electric aircraft so will reduce operating costs and support an increase in frequency. There's simply no easy spot to extend the runway when we've got so many other bigger issues to deal with.
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:45 am

Wellington works well as a base for narrow body trans-Tasman services. Distance is just short enough to allow aircraft to do two crossings a day – making for a highly efficient service to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. Can’t see any reason this traffic would be displaced by routing via Auckland and Christchurch: the direct service is generally much more attractive for travellers in both directions. On top of which the airport is very accessible for both Wellington city residents and tourists and business types arriving.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:46 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

No mention of NZ in that article. However I am quite sure NZ will be looking to build it to daily regardless of what QF do.


Yes no mention of NZ in the article. I should have phrased it differently that I think it will get a boost in demand. QF has a real shortage of long haul aircraft which is affecting them hard now.


The bigger issue for QF might be crew, they will still have 1-2 aircraft parked all day at LAX, though to make JFK work they will want SYD/MEL/BNE all connecting and would probably use an A330 ex BNE.


They're turning the current BNE A330 (QF55/56) back as the daylight LAX-BNE service, thus LAX-JFK tag is no longer possible ATM.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:57 am

SCFlyer wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

Yes no mention of NZ in the article. I should have phrased it differently that I think it will get a boost in demand. QF has a real shortage of long haul aircraft which is affecting them hard now.


The bigger issue for QF might be crew, they will still have 1-2 aircraft parked all day at LAX, though to make JFK work they will want SYD/MEL/BNE all connecting and would probably use an A330 ex BNE.


They're turning the current BNE A330 (QF55/56) back as the daylight LAX-BNE service, thus LAX-JFK tag is no longer possible ATM.


No it’s not possible atm. MEL isn’t timed right either and being a longer flight can often be delayed with the same A380 needed to turn in MEL, although that isn’t required if MEL-SIN gets the A380 again I am sure BNE-LAX will only have the current schedule while it is 2 daily. I would expect the second service to go to AFO at some point several days a week.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:33 pm

The case for a new airport at Tarras is still a work in progress. If it goes ahead the first flight is likely to land in 2029 and it might have the same number of passengers that Invercargill handles approx 290,000 initially. CIAL expects exports from the South Island could double from 30,000 tonnes to 60,000 tonnes annually. I think CHC airport could take more capacity than it handles at the moment. With less need for South Island freight being trucked up to AKL airport for export.
A protest group has already started up called Stop Central Otago Airport.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tarras-ai ... W66XEFKFQ/
 
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:13 am

NZ516 wrote:
The case for a new airport at Tarras is still a work in progress. If it goes ahead the first flight is likely to land in 2029 and it might have the same number of passengers that Invercargill handles approx 290,000 initially. CIAL expects exports from the South Island could double from 30,000 tonnes to 60,000 tonnes annually. I think CHC airport could take more capacity than it handles at the moment. With less need for South Island freight being trucked up to AKL airport for export.
A protest group has already started up called Stop Central Otago Airport.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tarras-ai ... W66XEFKFQ/


Is Tarras airport meant to be a full global international capable airport, they mention exports to China, so I am assuming at least a 3000m runway?
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:54 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Eh, plenty of other reasons as well. While I'd like to see a runway extension, I'm increasingly of the mind we should instead relocate it up to Ohakea, create a dual use airport for the entire lower North Island, and have a high frequency rail connection to connect Wellington and the rest of the lower NI to it. Its current location is pretty shit for most users as it forces you to go through the whole city. It's also vulnerable to sea level rise from climate change, earthquakes, hills to the north that make extending to the north more difficult so you have to go south into the Cook Strait, big chunk of land for housing right in the city, etc.


I agree WLG is in a horrible location. Geographically isolated at the southern end of the city, wedged between two hilly areas at the end of a peninsula. Accessible from the city via an aging single lane (each direction) tunnel which is almost always congested. While this is not the only way, it's the main thoroughfare. The entire region From PPQ south need to travel via the CBD and on urban streets to access it and much like Eden Park is in Auckland, it's located in urban WLG and will likely face more restrictions and more complaints around noise as the city grows.

There are proposals to improve the roading infrastructure and public transport and they could explore ferry connections from the CBD and Petone into Evans Bay but there's still a lengthy connection to the terminal and while any services would be in the Wellington Harbor the seas can still be very volatile and unpleasant which brings into question reliability.

There's probably better examples, but I've often looked to SAN as an example of how busy a predominately short haul narrow body airport can get in a confined space.

The issue with Ohakea is the distance in lack of infrastructure. It's give or take 150km north of WLG. Our narrow gauge railway doesn't allow for highspeed trains so we'd need to invest in a dedicated line. Simple math says at 200km/hr to travel 150km it's 45 minutes. Which on a surface seems reasonable but; what's the cost of this?

Transmission gully took close to a decade to build and that's just from Porirua to Paekākāriki at a cost of $1.25B.

A highspeed ralline would also need to cut through some serious terrain and likely end up with a lengthy tunnel into WLG to avoid things like level crossings, steep grade changes and lower curve radius .

Cast your eyes over to the bill for Auckland's CRL and it'd be a fair assumption to ask how many billion the line itself will cost, it won't start with a 1 that's for sure.

All this is forgetting the other physical infrastructure that's required. Electrical, fresh and waste water, roading, terminals, where do employees come from - there's so much to consider.

But with Ohakea, I do believe a centralized lower North Island Airport serving, PMR & WAG, Levin, Foxton, Otaki, perhaps as far south as PPQ and even Ohakune in winter could be a thing. Is there any interest? Put simply. NO.

What's the solution to WLG? - Probably status quo to be honest. It'll just become an expensive airport.


The only other spot I can think of to stick an airport closer would be the Wairarapa. Even then you'd need to put a new tunnel or two through the Remutakas and connect it up with SH2 and the rail system.

In general I'd agree with you. I think Wellington will likely become even more a domestic only location with high frequency connections through to Auckland and Christchurch. That distance will likely be one of the early sweet spots for battery electric aircraft so will reduce operating costs and support an increase in frequency. There's simply no easy spot to extend the runway when we've got so many other bigger issues to deal with.


If money was no barrier, one would like to assume a a new dedicated airport over towards Pirinoa would be ideal. You could build a dedicated dual purpose expressway between SH2/Petone and the new airport, It would be in excess of 30km though so again the cost is clear barrier.

Those coming from the North could cut from SH1 to SH2 near Porirua, those leaving the city could travel via road or rail to Petone and connect. A ferry link could also be established to Seaview with an interchange around there serving Wainuiomata.

The other option is further north near featherstone but to see the true benefit we'd need to cut through the Remutaka there, but this would be around 10km of tunnel and would make the whole trip 60-70km.

Both options are as bad as each other, like you say. WLG will likely become a dedicated very busy short-haul / domestic airport.

It's a shame, PPQ can't be sold and pushed north between where it is today and Levin. Secure that land for a second alternative airport in years ahead.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:02 am

Many decades ago there were proposals for a WB freight airport at Te Horo, between Otaki and Waikanae. Time to dust off those plans for pax?

Nah - I think NZ6 had it right: for all its imperfections, WLG is there to stay. Status quo prevails.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:21 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Many decades ago there were proposals for a WB freight airport at Te Horo, between Otaki and Waikanae. Time to dust off those plans for pax?

Nah - I think NZ6 had it right: for all its imperfections, WLG is there to stay. Status quo prevails.


Wellington has a population of about 360000, about the same as Canberra. Remind me how many international services has Canberra ever serviced?
Wellington airport is the extreme southern end of a peninsular generally well less then 100km wide extending 140k SSW from about Palmerston North.
So only a small sliver of land with about 500000 people including Palmerston North.
So hardly a huge internationally significant anything, and even domestically far from dominant.
The current airports, Wellington, Paraparaumu and Palmerston North because of their very proximate locations to the bulk of their population, and production, serve their modest, but important, domestic and transtasman trade extremly well.

There are a lot more deserving locations within NZ for better passenger rail, starting with Auvkland to Hamilton, and onwards to Tauraranga for a start. A hugely larger population and production base for a start, then Wellington, Wairarapa Manawatu.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:11 am

Will we ‘ever’ see an entirely new commercial airport built anywhere in NZ, we have WLG, ZQN, WRE? Not sure where WRE is at but it can’t take a full ATR can it due to a short runway?
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:20 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Will we ‘ever’ see an entirely new commercial airport built anywhere in NZ, we have WLG, ZQN, WRE? Not sure where WRE is at but it can’t take a full ATR can it due to a short runway?


That was a well timed post re WRE. Site maps are included in this piece from last night. However, it could be about 10 years before it opens.
Formal planning and design is scheduled to start from July and run into the next decade, according to the consultation document, available from July 20.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/465459/w ... -from-july

PA515
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:07 pm

77west wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
The case for a new airport at Tarras is still a work in progress. If it goes ahead the first flight is likely to land in 2029 and it might have the same number of passengers that Invercargill handles approx 290,000 initially. CIAL expects exports from the South Island could double from 30,000 tonnes to 60,000 tonnes annually. I think CHC airport could take more capacity than it handles at the moment. With less need for South Island freight being trucked up to AKL airport for export.
A protest group has already started up called Stop Central Otago Airport.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tarras-ai ... W66XEFKFQ/


Is Tarras airport meant to be a full global international capable airport, they mention exports to China, so I am assuming at least a 3000m runway?


They are still working through the business case for it. But the proposal is to replace the existing ZQN international airport so will need a runway at least 2500m.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:46 pm

On the subject of airport upgrades Takaka Airport is getting much needed runway improvements after rain damage in February.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128025 ... nd-upgrade
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:11 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Will we ‘ever’ see an entirely new commercial airport built anywhere in NZ, we have WLG, ZQN, WRE? Not sure where WRE is at but it can’t take a full ATR can it due to a short runway?


Will Tarras do?

If not, how about WRE?

We've got some airports in draft places but growth does that I guess. TRG and ROT stand out for me, so a joint regional airport would be nice for everyone. I recall this being talked about a few times. NSN is the other I shake my head at.

ZQN could be on the list but may be solved if Tarras goes ahead.

Otherwise most other airports are in reasonable shape, I'm thinking HLZ, CHC, DUD, BHE, IVC, NPL, NPE etc...

WLG is just an awful location for a city and an airport. There's just not kilometers of flat land anywhere near the city. So 3 options can be tabled

1. Reclaim land. Too expensive and likely a lack of suitable locations without environmental impacts.
2. Build one further away. Public acceptance low, would move further away from populations and transit corridors would be costly.
3. Status Quo until the Kapiti Coast is big enough to take the spill.

The real answer to WLG could be in option 3. But what future proofing is being done to secure land for a future airport.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:40 am

NZ6 wrote:
3. Status Quo until the Kapiti Coast is big enough to take the spill.

The real answer to WLG could be in option 3. But what future proofing is being done to secure land for a future airport.

Is Kapiti Coast secure as an airport? Not only did I think that it was in line for housing development (has this been set aside?) but also I believe it's pretty much surrounded by the current urban area.

I think we're being totally optimistic if we think that there will be the will and $$$ to build many new airports at all, with the possible exception of WRE and just maybe Tarras (and maybe not Tarras).I don't think the need is there for WBs into Central Otago, and there is always the plan for expanding WKA if local nimbyism can be overcome. As I understand it the previous project stalled over a legal technicality associated with the RMA and land ownership (can someone elucidate?). Is it now completely off the table? The facilities at places like ROT and TRG will IMO be around long-term, and I see the future of these airports and NSN as being smaller jets like the A221, rather than relocating.

And then there's the issue of domestic air travel going hydrogen-electric in the next decades - as I understand it runway requirements may be less in any event. I can't see tarmac being a great secure investment if that's the case.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:03 am

There's been a lot of talk about WLG being in an "awful place" I think we are forgetting that it must be one of the most conveniently located airports to a CBD of anywhere. Sure, it's not great for the Hutt Valley but realistically easily accessible by train and whatever rapid transit option is chosen for the CBD to Airport corridor. But I really question whether there is a need for expansion on any significant scale. It can take smaller WB aircraft but noone chooses to do so. Long-range services might even be possible with the A321XLR should any airline be motivated - and I predict that long-range NB operations will start to become "normal" at a global level (again - remember that when the 707 and DC8 ruled the skies life was still pretty tolerable and people were happy to fly).

After all, in real life, it's not "aviation über alles". There are lots of competing interests, not least finance and the environment. In fact, aviation is in reality pretty low on the pecking order.
 
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SelandiaBaru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:24 am

NZ6 wrote:
Otherwise most other airports are in reasonable shape, I'm thinking HLZ, CHC, DUD, BHE, IVC, NPL, NPE etc...


NPL?

I mean the new terminal is great but the location of it is terrible for reliable operations, particularly ATR ops.
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2022

Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:38 am

NZ6 wrote:

WLG is just an awful location for a city and an airport.


Dunno why people have it in for WLG. Fun city. Excellent little airport. Quick to get to, good pax experience – whether you’re a Wellingtonian or a visitor. Enjoy it.

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