https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/26/delta-t ... -push.html

Big news from Delta that they're going to start paying their F/As half their hourly wage during the boarding process - pretty major shift in the compensation structure for flight attendants, and the first airline in the US to do so.

Per CNBC, in a move FAs at most carriers have been wanting to see for years, DL will offer half an FA’s hourly rate for boarding. Additionally, narrowbody flights will now have 40 minutes to board, up from 35.

Congratulations to Delta FAs. Regardless of the motives behind the ‘why’, it is a nice step in the right direction with how crews are paid!

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/26/delta-to-pay-flight-attendants-during-boarding-amid-union-push.html

As sure as I'm sitting here, the CEOs of other U.S. carriers are probably irritated as hell, because their unionized pilot and F/A groups will now start wanting to be paid before the current start time.

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day? In practice how many extra hours pay is likely to give a SH FA? 3 or just 2? I assume this intended to improve retention & recruitment of FAs?

Wonder how long airlines will resist this until others airlines will pay FA during boarding. To those who are against this movement, why?

SamYeager2016 wrote:

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day? In practice how many extra hours pay is likely to give a SH FA? 3 or just 2? I assume this intended to improve retention & recruitment of FAs?

It's intended to prevent the FAs from joining a union. There's a drive underway.

I just find it weird that they earlier hasn't been paid for all the time their at work.

Is this general practice across the industry world wide, or just something the US airlines do? I would be surprised if other countries let the airlines get away with paying their crew only for time spent in the air.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

SamYeager2016 wrote:

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day? In practice how many extra hours pay is likely to give a SH FA? 3 or just 2? I assume this intended to improve retention & recruitment of FAs?

It's intended to prevent the FAs from joining a union. There's a drive underway.

Now they can buy *two* Xboxes with the money they save on union dues.

For those not in the know, that was a reference to a real anti-union poster DL management used during the last big union drive. Save the dues money, buy an Xbox!

Someone83 wrote:

I just find it weird that they earlier hasn't been paid for all the time their at work.

I agree. A lot of the passenger issues during boarding such as organizing movement in the cabin during the process, the (stupid) questions, assisting lifting carry-ons in the bins above, tidying the cabin, etc. Hopefully other airlines will begin this pay as well.

Everybody should be paid from the minute they clock on to the minute they clock out.

cloudboy wrote:

Is this general practice across the industry world wide, or just something the US airlines do? I would be surprised if other countries let the airlines get away with paying their crew only for time spent in the air.

Totally! I would be very surprised to see this happening in Western Europe. Here the rule is usually clear: if it is a mandated time to carry out your job (and it clearly is), then you must be paid for it.

They weren't already being paid for this? They are very much working during the boarding process - they've been working for free this whole time?


That seems absurd

Canuck600 wrote:

Everybody should be paid from the minute they clock on to the minute they clock out.

Not disagreeing, but this isn't how FA's or pilots work, at least in the US.

dcaproducer wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

Everybody should be paid from the minute they clock on to the minute they clock out.

Not disagreeing, but this isn't how FA's or pilots work, at least in the US.

So pilots do the briefing and walkaround on their own time? Think not. It’s included in the hourly rate I guess. Once you check in for a flight, you are on duty.

I guess I'll be the first one to explain how it works. FA pay is much easier to track/manage when it aligns with flight block time, rather than tracking "clock-in" times or determining when flights actually started boarding. Of course on the surface it seems that FAs aren't being paid for the work they do while parked at the gate, but that's all factored in to the block time pay.

Kno wrote:

They weren't already being paid for this? They are very much working during the boarding process - they've been working for free this whole time?


That seems absurd

Pilots also don’t get paid for all the preflight work they do. Walk around inspections, logbook review, weather review, flight plan review, setting up the airplane. Brake release to final brake setting for that flight is all that’s paid. Sit at the gate with pax on board for 2 hours on a ground delay? Free. Sitting at a gate with an engine running waiting for ground power? Free.

Some of this is taken care of by the oversell structure of compensation. But pilot and FA hourly rates are deceiving. Most schedules are built to pay around 80 hours a month. 80 hours of work per month doesn’t sound like much work, but to work that schedule it’s generally about 15+ days of work, often at 10-14 hours a day of being “at work and on duty” and doing “uncompensated” preflight stuff, but maybe only 5-6 of that 10-14 hours will be compensated block time. I’ve always thought this way of doing things is strange and thought that check in to duty off is a better way of compensating. Cape air does it like that.

What is the genesis of not paying a FA or Pilot the second they walk into the gate area or onto the ac?

An added benefit is going to a 40 minute boarding time (up from 35) for all DL narrowbodies. Has to be an on time and customer service component to it.

Natflyer wrote:

dcaproducer wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

Everybody should be paid from the minute they clock on to the minute they clock out.

Not disagreeing, but this isn't how FA's or pilots work, at least in the US.

So pilots do the briefing and walkaround on their own time? Think not. It’s included in the hourly rate I guess. Once you check in for a flight, you are on duty.

I get paid when the parking brake drops after door closure until the door opens again pulling into the gate.

eal46859 wrote:

What is the genesis of not paying a FA or Pilot the second they walk into the gate area or onto the ac?

The unions and their members in the 50s, 60s, etc. determined that pilots and FAs would make more overall money with higher flight time rates and no pay for boarding, pre-flight checks, etc. than they would make with lower rates and more activities paid. That model became the industry standard.

Even under Delta's new system, FAs are not being paid full flight time rates, but they are being guaranteed 40 minutes of paid time at the new boarding rates (lower than flight rates) for each domestic flight.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

SamYeager2016 wrote:

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day? In practice how many extra hours pay is likely to give a SH FA? 3 or just 2? I assume this intended to improve retention & recruitment of FAs?

It's intended to prevent the FAs from joining a union. There's a drive underway.

Yet AFA who claims to the DL FA’s that they’ll get DL to bend to their will has yet to be able to get any other carrier they represent to do the same thing.

Natflyer wrote:

dcaproducer wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

Everybody should be paid from the minute they clock on to the minute they clock out.

Not disagreeing, but this isn't how FA's or pilots work, at least in the US.

So pilots do the briefing and walkaround on their own time? Think not. It’s included in the hourly rate I guess. Once you check in for a flight, you are on duty.

Pilots in the US are paid from out to in, just like FAs. There are some outliers (like WN) that have a slightly different pay scheme but they still generally connect with block time in some way.

So, while they are not being directly paid for their briefing and walkaround, their hourly rate is higher to compensate for that.

ObadiahPlainman wrote:

An added benefit is going to a 40 minute boarding time (up from 35) for all DL narrowbodies. Has to be an on time and customer service component to it.

Yep. Delta tested this and decided that it will do better financially making the FAs work about 5 minutes more per flight and paying them a boarding rate to incentivize getting the plane in the air quicker. Delta has stated that it intends to push back early as many planes as possible under this new model.

jfern022 wrote:

TWFlyGuy wrote:

SamYeager2016 wrote:

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day? In practice how many extra hours pay is likely to give a SH FA? 3 or just 2? I assume this intended to improve retention & recruitment of FAs?

It's intended to prevent the FAs from joining a union. There's a drive underway.

Yet AFA who claims to the DL FA’s that they’ll get DL to bend to their will has yet to be able to get any other carrier they represent to do the same thing.

To be fair to the AFA and other FA unions, I don't think they've ever really bargained for this.

So, in a nutshell, is the US standard: you get paid when the door is closed?

Kno wrote:

They weren't already being paid for this? They are very much working during the boarding process - they've been working for free this whole time?


That seems absurd

The hourly pay rate has reflected that work.

Overheard from a senior AA FA a bit before AA declared bankruptcy, emphasis mine: 'This is a $72,000 a year part-time job. I could never replace it.'

As for the union drive underway, how many DL union FA drives have there been in the last 20 years?

For a domestic trip, this can be some good extra income. Think about a DL flight attendant doing ATL-BNA-ATL-CHS-ATL-CVG layover, next day CVG-ATL-JAX-ATL-CMH layover, last day CMH-ATL-MCO-ATL. There were be 12 boarding pay periods on that trip.

SamYeager2016 wrote:

Presumably this is far more advantageous for short haul FAs who'll have more frequent boarding periods per day?

There's a big variation in that by trip construction by aircraft type. Generally, fewer segments per day/more miles per segment have gone to more senior FAs. A day might be two segments: out and back. Think JFK-DEN-JFK. Something on a 717 might be four segments per day -- but less actual flight time. The new pay is going to have FAs at all seniority levels re-examine how they bid, for money vs. ease.

In Europe it is similar in most companies, pilots and cabin crew usually get paid a basic salary (which should cover boarding, postflight duties etc) and a pay per block hour (I.e. brake off to brake on). There are some variations to this some companies pay a big basic salary but no compensation for block hours. Other companies pay by the distance flown, by landings etc. In the end, I don’t care so much about the individual components of my salary, more about the complete package that I will have on my account at the end of the month. Personally I would even prefer a higher basic salary and less payment per hour as this adds stability over the year (to avoid getting a very low salary during low season).
The positive effect that you could get out of Deltas new concept is that it is an incentive for the airline to avoid disruptions/keeping crews on aircraft for long times…

I get the concept of using flight time for accounting work-time.
I get the idea of having an accounting time that is acknowledged to be shorter than the real work time with an higher hourly rate to compensate. (I get the same in a very different sector.)
What I don't get is the idea that there is nothing accounting for disruptions. So in any case of problem, delay or any other change, workers don't get anything in compensation?

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:

So, in a nutshell, is the US standard: you get paid when the door is closed?

Correct, and the negotiated hourly rates are designed to reflect that.

HunterATL wrote:

ObadiahPlainman wrote:

An added benefit is going to a 40 minute boarding time (up from 35) for all DL narrowbodies. Has to be an on time and customer service component to it.

Yep. Delta tested this and decided that it will do better financially making the FAs work about 5 minutes more per flight and paying them a boarding rate to incentivize getting the plane in the air quicker. Delta has stated that it intends to push back early as many planes as possible under this new model.

It will be interesting to see how that works in practice. Pushing out early to either wait on the taxiway or in the air to land in ATL then get a gate because we pushed early.

I will be interested to see how this impacts boarding too in that it will now be more "regulated". Today you can have some fudge time to board a few minutes early so the crew can get going for what might be the last flight of a long day or hold off a minute while we finish up a couple things in the cabin.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

I will be interested to see how this impacts boarding too in that it will now be more "regulated". Today you can have some fudge time to board a few minutes early so the crew can get going for what might be the last flight of a long day or hold off a minute while we finish up a couple things in the cabin.

Nothing in this changes that. Flights can begin boarding early, but flight attendants only get paid for the scheduled boarding time (40 minutes pre departure for domestic narrowbody flights).

This would all be easier if pilots and FAs get paid by flight duty period and not block time.

Is it paid separate and above min day pay?

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:

So, in a nutshell, is the US standard: you get paid when the door is closed?

No.

If it’s just the door that’s closed and nothing else you aren’t getting paid

Whatever criteria the airline has set to trigger the ACARS to generate an OUT time is when flight crew (pilots and flight attendants) start getting paid.

Just closing the main cabin door doesn’t generate an OUT time.

Some airlines, closing the door and releasing the parking brake generates an OUT time.

Other airlines, closing the door, releasing the parking brake, and sufficient speed on the wheels generates an OUT time.

Or if there is no ACARS, what ever time you tell operations is the OUT time.

Toinou wrote:

I get the concept of using flight time for accounting work-time.
I get the idea of having an accounting time that is acknowledged to be shorter than the real work time with an higher hourly rate to compensate. (I get the same in a very different sector.)
What I don't get is the idea that there is nothing accounting for disruptions. So in any case of problem, delay or any other change, workers don't get anything in compensation?

There is compensation for additional duty/flying, and it’s often very lucrative. I personally “like” when my schedule gets messed up, it guarantees me more $ for often less work.

Like someone else alluded to, these jobs (pilots and FA) are the best part time jobs you can get. If you treat it like a full time hustle you can make serious $ on an education adjusted basis. There’s a reason there are thousands of applicants for a couple hundred spots, especially for FAs at places like WN.

Delta FAs also get paid when they are on board with passengers past one hour. So if there is a boarding 40 minutes before a flight, and then you experience a 40 minute delay, you’d get 20 minutes worth of holding pay. There are other compensations for trips that are messed up, if you get home more than 4 hours after your scheduled arrival you get an additional 4 hours of flight pay, if you are on duty over a set amount of time you get an additional 4 hours.

Cory6188 wrote:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/26/delta-to-pay-flight-attendants-during-boarding-amid-union-push.html

Big news from Delta that they're going to start paying their F/As half their hourly wage during the boarding process - pretty major shift in the compensation structure for flight attendants, and the first airline in the US to do so.

Would be better for the FA's if they were paid as soon as they clocked in at operations.

This isn't just a US thing either. Here in Canada we are not paid for boarding and FA pay, generally speaking, goes from "doors closed to doors open".

As an example, there is an IAH turn.
The total duty is 8h57min.
The "credit" i.e. pay is only 6h37mins.
So that 2hr20mins is unpaid time spent on the time we are required to show before a shift, boarding time, etc.

A multi-leg day is even worse.
A 2-turn day is duty of 10h51 and credit of 5h53.
So 4hr58 is UNPAID WORK.

Please remember in this conversation there is a difference between major airline and regional airline contracts as well (and of course between pilot and flight attendant contracts too).

When I was an Endeavor Air pilot, I was regularly at work 10+ hours a day and paid for 4 hours of that (short flights on the CRJ-200). We didn’t have any duty rigs (paid at a ratio for the time between flights). So while my pay was $60 an hour on paper, it was actually $24/hr in actuality. And as others pointed out, if I was delayed for hours more and we didn’t have the doors closed and the parking brake released, they average went down even further.

Great news!

Another example of why we don’t need a union.
Historically Delta gave us what other carriers negotiated without hesitation. Now we’re setting the standard that others strive for, but may not see for some time given that their contracts have to become amendable and then usually a years long negotiation process runs it’s course.

Former NWA here.

So I’m curious. If during the boarding process something happens that requires an evacuation and the flight is cancelled, there is no pay for that? Seems bizarre

SL1200MK2 wrote:

So I’m curious. If during the boarding process something happens that requires an evacuation and the flight is cancelled, there is no pay for that? Seems bizarre

Depends. There is usually some kind of pay for canceled legs. This will depends on airline (and contract/work rules) and status (line holder v/ reserve).

SL1200MK2 wrote:

So I’m curious. If during the boarding process something happens that requires an evacuation and the flight is cancelled, there is no pay for that? Seems bizarre

Nope. Unfortunately. I used to be one of those who thought being a flight attendant was easy, and I would frown when they wanted pay raises. That is until I learned about them not being paid during boarding. I also have friends who work in the profession and was shocked to learn this was happening. I had a good friend hurt their shoulder during boarding, while trying to put a bag in an overhead bin!

I gotta say this. As a Delta Diamond Medallion, I fly like a mad man now. It's crazy how exhausted I am after flying so much! I mean, as soon as I get to the hotel, I collapse on the bed! And all I am doing is sitting in a first class seat being served like a king. These men and women who do this job bust their tails at 35,000 feet. They certainly don't get the kudos they deserve, especially when dealing with the insanity that happens on the aircraft these days.

I applaud Delta for doing this. Regardless if this is a move in hopes of a union from happening. It shows that this airline will step up for it's workers and do the right thing. I do hope this move will force all airlines to do the right thing. If anything, Delta deserves a round of applause for it. Hopefully down the road, we will be able to witness airlines starting to pay these flight crews from the time they clock in, till they clock out. It's definitely a step in the right direction.

On a side note!! To all the Flight Attendants on this page. Thank you! Thank you for getting me where I need to be safely, and thank you for putting up with me! I see the work you guys do, and I can't thank you enough.

So, by the same logic, the gate agents should only be paid when a plane parks at the gate and opens the door. Once that door closes again, they're off the clock until the next plane arrives at the gate. (How does this kind of thing even get started. Sounds like some kind of hold over from the 1920s.)

This is a nice pay raise for FAs. It will help DL recruit. Pay is $60k to $95k for a FA.

https://aviationdreamer.com/delta-airli ... efits/amp/

This raises those salaries. The *union* shops will have to match. For all of those complaining about this structure, why haven't the unions solved the issue before? You wouldn't pay the same hourly rate if all hours were paid.

Anyway, a win for the FAs. The other airlines will have to match compensation.

Lightsaber

global1 wrote:

Great news!

Another example of why we don’t need a union.
Historically Delta gave us what other carriers negotiated without hesitation. Now we’re setting the standard that others strive for, but may not see for some time given that their contracts have to become amendable and then usually a years long negotiation process runs it’s course.

Former NWA here.

You do realize that the only reason DL is doing this is to stop a union from coming on property. If unions didn't exist, highly doubtful DL would be offering this extra benefit.

Ironic and sad how so many people who say they are anti-union wind up benefiting anyway from improvements that only the existence of unions provide.