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grjplanes
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:13 am

SYD-CPT gets mentioned now and then also as part of this project...however is this a real possibility?
Also why necessary would this be that more different than SYD-JNB, which is actually a little bit longer than SYD-CPT, which would suggest that B789 could also do it, or is it too far south for ETOPS?
 
smi0006
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:24 am

grjplanes wrote:
SYD-CPT gets mentioned now and then also as part of this project...however is this a real possibility?
Also why necessary would this be that more different than SYD-JNB, which is actually a little bit longer than SYD-CPT, which would suggest that B789 could also do it, or is it too far south for ETOPS?


SYD-JNB is currently being flown with a 789, last time I flew to JNB we made landfall over Durban I think (memory’s a bit foggy) surely worst case with ETOPs they simply do the same but turn left for CPT?

789 seems more suitable than a 350 config wise. Otherwise PER-CPT with a 330 and use PER as a hub? PER probs has its own CPT VFR market too.
 
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HKAusFlyer
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:33 am

Interested to see Qantas A350-1000's OWE given that sparse 238-seat, but premium-heavy LOPA. Perhaps a standard 319t 35K with 8,700nm range can do the job without special modification to fuel system or addition of ACT?

Besides, the late-2025 delivery date means that QF's 35K will have the 2% fuel burn improvement incorporated, which was said to be available from early-2024 onwards, the same time when the 3-tonne upgrade to the A350-900's MTOW to 283t will become available.

2% fuel burn means a lot on such flights stretching the limits of the aircraft's performance envelope.

Last but not least, another eye-catching point is the QF A321XLR's late-2023 first delivery, which coincidentally matches Qatar's deferred A321neo delivery date, before last week's cancellation and release of Airbus's responsibility to build Qatar's examples by the UK High Court. Reuters report also revealed that post-ruling, any remedy even if Qatar mounted an appeal and ultimately won will only be made via financial compensation, but not physical aircraft. May or may not be relevant, but still very curious...
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:38 am

Jon Ostrower writes on Twitter that the aircraft will have a 20,000 litre (5,283 gallon) centre fuel tank on the Airbus A350-1000s to enable the non-stop flights from Sydney to London and New York.
 
Opus99
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:40 am

Very happy for Qantas here and of course airbus. They have the better product lineup and I think these aircraft will be fantastic for Qantas.

I think it also brings to light the burning bush that is Boeing. No product to offer against every single aircraft that QF ordered.

Hopefully a brighter future. But at this point, you might die waiting
 
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HKAusFlyer
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:45 am

ClassicLover wrote:
Jon Ostrower writes on Twitter that the aircraft will have a 20,000 litre (5,283 gallon) centre fuel tank on the Airbus A350-1000s to enable the non-stop flights from Sydney to London and New York.


Thanks. 5,283 USG is almost 15.96 tonnes of fuel.

Given the A350-1000's fuel burn at ~6,300 to 6,700kg per hour, if using the higher number given the fuel penalty over such a long flight, that's around 2.3-2.4 hours' worth of fuel coming from the centre tank.
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:45 am

On the Qantas news sites various explanations, renderings and pictures
Source : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/

Image

The advantages of the A220, A350 and A321XLR over the current Boeing fleet are extensive explained and illustrated on Qantas.com.

:arrow: A clearer wake-up call to Boeing is hard to imagine.

A321 XLR range comapred to B737: https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf
A223 range compared to B717 : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf
 
grjplanes
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:56 am

smi0006 wrote:
grjplanes wrote:
SYD-CPT gets mentioned now and then also as part of this project...however is this a real possibility?
Also why necessary would this be that more different than SYD-JNB, which is actually a little bit longer than SYD-CPT, which would suggest that B789 could also do it, or is it too far south for ETOPS?


SYD-JNB is currently being flown with a 789, last time I flew to JNB we made landfall over Durban I think (memory’s a bit foggy) surely worst case with ETOPs they simply do the same but turn left for CPT?

789 seems more suitable than a 350 config wise. Otherwise PER-CPT with a 330 and use PER as a hub? PER probs has its own CPT VFR market too.


My question is why is SYD-CPT then mentioned part of Project Sunrise, while the 789 could be capable as we both suggest.
 
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Btblue
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:00 am

Qantas just published a video of the new First Class on their A350s. I saw that and instantly headed over here.

Good news for Qantas, nice fleet choices.

https://youtu.be/c504mnty-Tc
 
Pcoder
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:25 am

Natflyer wrote:
Looking at Great Circle Mapper, SYD-LHR will need Russian airspace for optimum routings. That might not be available for decades.


I'm a bit doubtful that this Russian situation will last for decades as Putin is getting older and wont be ruling forever. Yes the issues with airspace could last years but I doubt the Russian population has the stomach to revert back to a soviet style economy long term and give up their McDonalds, Mercedes and other luxuries they have gotten used to. Comprised will happen eventually and things like airspace will open up again.

In regards to routing, the trip from SYD to LHR is about 17,000km (Less for MEL to LHR) and routing out of Russian airspace only adds a few hundred Kilometres which Qantas probably has a good 1000km range capacity built in for issues like this. The opening of SWZ should also help alleviate range issues as it will make it easier when a diversion is needed.
 
moa999
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:39 am

UA857 wrote:
Will QF eliminate LAX-JFK once SYD-JFK starts?


Hasn't returned post-Covid and isn't expected to.

QF is now flying SYD/MEL - DFW with the 789, and pushing most JFK bound passengers onto this then AA connection. Obviously LAX is also another option.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:40 am

seat1a wrote:
Any thoughts on Dep/Arr times out of SYD to LHR and JFK and back? Would it daily? I read above the LHR and JFK would require 8 frames? Seems like a lot.


8 frames would be about right if they plan to do a LHR-SYD-JFK-MEL-LHR rotation.
 
astuteman
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:46 am

Opus99 wrote:
Very happy for Qantas here and of course airbus. They have the better product lineup and I think these aircraft will be fantastic for Qantas.

I think it also brings to light the burning bush that is Boeing. No product to offer against every single aircraft that QF ordered.

Hopefully a brighter future. But at this point, you might die waiting


As a point of order I understood that the 777-8X was offered against the A350-1000.
I would have also thought that the 737-7MAX could be offered against the A220-300.
Boeing have nothing to counter the A321XLR, and looking at the GCM charts in the Qantas brief, the XLR opens up a huge amount of potential P2P's in and from Australia... .....

Rgds
 
Opus99
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 11:15 am

astuteman wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Very happy for Qantas here and of course airbus. They have the better product lineup and I think these aircraft will be fantastic for Qantas.

I think it also brings to light the burning bush that is Boeing. No product to offer against every single aircraft that QF ordered.

Hopefully a brighter future. But at this point, you might die waiting


As a point of order I understood that the 777-8X was offered against the A350-1000.
I would have also thought that the 737-7MAX could be offered against the A220-300.
Boeing have nothing to counter the A321XLR, and looking at the GCM charts in the Qantas brief, the XLR opens up a huge amount of potential P2P's in and from Australia... .....

Rgds

-8X was not really there though was it? And I think Qantas saw that. Wish it was a better outcome for Boeing. But right now, the only thing they have that sits above anything else in its class is the 787 IMO
 
beachroad
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:08 pm

seat1a wrote:
Any thoughts on Dep/Arr times out of SYD to LHR and JFK and back? Would it daily? I read above the LHR and JFK would require 8 frames? Seems like a lot.


If the aircraft are scheduled to turn around in London in a few hours then you'd have a daily requirement for 2 frames per route. New York is the same. If the Europe and US flights arr/dep Australia in a bank, then you've got a bit of flexibility about how you cycle frames, if not then that combined 4 frames can easily become 5 frames due to inefficiency.

My (super rough) guess is that with with 12 frames you'd do something like:

PER-LHR: 2 frames
SYD-LHR: 2 frames
MEL-LHR: 2 frames
SYD-CDG or FRA: 2 frames
SYD-JFK: 2 frames
Spare/Maintenance: 2 frames

It's quite hard to make utilisation of 12 aircraft robust and efficient.

However, at the moment London flights have a daily requirement for 3 frames each, (6 in total for 2 flights). This way, for 6 frames you get 3 flights.

At the moment PER-LHR is inefficient because they have to fly a 787-9 across Australia to position it (which in fairness gives Melbourne a flight). If you could shift PER-LHR to A351s that rotate via London, then you'd save 3 787-9 frames for 2 A351s, which is a good deal. At least you've got the fall back of sending a 787-9 on the PER-LHR mission if you are stuck due to unexpected maintenance on the A351 fleet.
 
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Polot
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:16 pm

beachroad wrote:
At the moment PER-LHR is inefficient because they have to fly a 787-9 across Australia to position it (which in fairness gives Melbourne a flight). If you could shift PER-LHR to A351s that rotate via London, then you'd save 3 787-9 frames for 2 A351s, which is a good deal. At least you've got the fall back of sending a 787-9 on the PER-LHR mission if you are stuck due to unexpected maintenance on the A351 fleet.

Would PER-LHR be able to support such a premium heavy aircraft though? Remember right now a lot of the premium traffic on the route is sourced from SYD that would just take the new SYD nonstop, and PER-LHR will have to rely more on local demand. I can easily envision PER-LHR staying with the 787- similar total capacity but less premium seats (and Y can be aided by SYD/MEL passengers who don’t want to pay nonstop premium).
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:38 pm

I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was there to test the market / operations & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..
Last edited by keesje on Mon May 02, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:45 pm

keesje wrote:
I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..

CDG or maybe FRA would be the only other European nonstops QF would ever consider. FCO, AMS, etc don’t have the required premium demand.
 
docmtl
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:46 pm

Here comes the (un)famous Boeing-Embraer merge bitting both companies again: Boeing can't offer regional or cross-over jets and Embraer can't offer mainline and long-range jets either. Qantas is gone, KLM is gone, Delta is gone...

docmtl
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 12:54 pm

Can Airbus tweak the MTOW up a few tons by trading against maintenance tasks set by cycles? These frames will by definition fly low numbers of cycles
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:01 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was there to test the market / operations & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..


I do recall the O&D alone between PER-LHR was enough to sustain the flight on its own, and it's been predicted that the PER-LHR flight would begin in BNE using the existing 787s (under a BNE-PER-LHR-PER-BNE rotation) when the Sunrise MEL flights begin (following the SYD Sunrise flights).
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:07 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was there to test the market / operations & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..


Nope, no indication that PER-LHR will be discontinued.
 
behramjee
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:08 pm

keesje wrote:
On the Qantas news sites various explanations, renderings and pictures
Source : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/

Image

The advantages of the A220, A350 and A321XLR over the current Boeing fleet are extensive explained and illustrated on Qantas.com.

:arrow: A clearer wake-up call to Boeing is hard to imagine.

A321 XLR range comapred to B737: https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf
A223 range compared to B717 : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf


As per the detailed QF press release, the 20 A321Neo-XLRs are initially meant for Jetstar only hence the 200 seater layout with 20 normal J class seats + 180Y. The same layout would be applicable to regular A321Neos which would be used to replace the B738s eventually on domestic sectors. If mainline QF was going to fly the XLRs to SE Asia, I would then have expected another LOPA with flat beds in business class.
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:16 pm

behramjee wrote:
keesje wrote:
On the Qantas news sites various explanations, renderings and pictures
Source : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/

Image

The advantages of the A220, A350 and A321XLR over the current Boeing fleet are extensive explained and illustrated on Qantas.com.

:arrow: A clearer wake-up call to Boeing is hard to imagine.

A321 XLR range comapred to B737: https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf
A223 range compared to B717 : https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/wp-co ... ge-Map.pdf


As per the detailed QF press release, the 20 A321Neo-XLRs are initially meant for Jetstar only hence the 200 seater layout with 20 normal J class seats + 180Y. The same layout would be applicable to regular A321Neos which would be used to replace the B738s eventually on domestic sectors. If mainline QF was going to fly the XLRs to SE Asia, I would then have expected another LOPA with flat beds in business class.


This agreement is in addition to the existing order for 109 A320neo Family aircraft, which includes the A321XLR for the Qantas Group low cost subsidiary Jetstar.
I'm sure the contracts give Qantas group flexibility to fine tune types, variants, configurations as market requirements develop over the years.
 
beachroad
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:43 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was their to test the market & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..


Not really. Perth has 2.2m residents, it does well on O&D to the UK because 250,000 Brits live in Perth Australia, 5x the Brits that live in Perth Scotland ironically enough. Perth Australia is a wealthy city that's notorious for high price airfares (and everything else). So there is demand because about 10% of the Perth population has reasons for travel to the UK and due to the way Australian immigration works, that 10% has above average earnings. The combination of scale and wealth is why QF9 attracts a premium price, usually about 20%.

Manchester UK on the other hand, has 2.5m residents, very few have any reason to go to Australia, plus it's a poor city (3x the national average have no qualifications or educational attainment). Yields in/out of Manchester are bargain basement, hence holiday discount airlines or LCCs like Jet2, easyJet and TUI dominate. That picture doesn't improve when you stretch out the catchment area either, which is why the "levelling up agenda" is big politics in the UK.

So I'd say there's little prospect of swapping PER for MAN.

Polot wrote:
beachroad wrote:
At the moment PER-LHR is inefficient because they have to fly a 787-9 across Australia to position it (which in fairness gives Melbourne a flight). If you could shift PER-LHR to A351s that rotate via London, then you'd save 3 787-9 frames for 2 A351s, which is a good deal. At least you've got the fall back of sending a 787-9 on the PER-LHR mission if you are stuck due to unexpected maintenance on the A351 fleet.

Would PER-LHR be able to support such a premium heavy aircraft though? Remember right now a lot of the premium traffic on the route is sourced from SYD that would just take the new SYD nonstop, and PER-LHR will have to rely more on local demand. I can easily envision PER-LHR staying with the 787- similar total capacity but less premium seats (and Y can be aided by SYD/MEL passengers who don’t want to pay nonstop premium).


On balance, I'd guess 2x A351s v 3x 787-9 has got to be commercially attractive. QF's 787-9s are 40/28/166, v the proposed A351 6/52/40/140, so not dissimilar. QF's 789's are based on the East Coast, so having to fly one across the continent everyday for a Perth-London flight is expensive and ties up a frame.

Because of the way Australian immigration rules work, those 250k Brits are at the top end of earnings, which is how come the roughly 20% premium on QF9 works.

From what I understood a few years back, it was only when a some expats went into QF who had friends who'd moved to Perth, that QF noticed. However, QF then prioritised overflying LAX.
 
SEU
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 1:55 pm

Is there any reason why BA will do the same? Or is the geography of the UK mean that it would be too niche to do?
 
melpax
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 2:01 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I get SYD-JFK, but whatvdemsnd would there be for a nonstop MEL-JFK flight? I could see MEL-LHR. I also expect way more than 12 frames if CDG is also included…as LHR and JFK will require at least 8 frames by themselves and MEL unless done twice weekly would also require another 4. (SYD-DFW could go to a B789.)


There would be nearly as much demand for a MEL-JFK nonstop as for a SYD-JFK flight. Melbourne is also a large centre for financial services. The HQ's of the 4 big Aussie banks are evenly split between MEL & SYD. While Sydney is a major hub for FX & merchant banking, Melbourne is a major hub for Superannuation fund (pension fund) management, and also for Fintecs (Afterpay was established in Melbourne). We're also a large hub for medical research, JFK flights would be very convenient for transfers to Boston. There are also US multinationals that have a large presence in Melbourne, Ford still retains a large R&D operation, and Marsh has their largest office outside of NYC in Melbourne.

With direct flights from MEL/SYD to both NY & London, there might be some changes in business travel patterns. Currently, it's common for execs travelling Australia-LHR to pay a visit to the Singapore office during a stopover (this would also have previously applied to HK). With the Sunrise flights, it could be common for people to do both London & NYC on the same trip, taking either a BA or AA trans-atlantic flight, and picking up a Sunrise flight at the other end. What is currently at least a 5-flight trip would be only 3 flights, and without the dreaded LAX transfer at either end of the trip, and 1 less TSA check.....
 
David_itl
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 2:41 pm

beachroad wrote:
Manchester UK on the other hand, has 2.5m residents, very few have any reason to go to Australia, plus it's a poor city


Yes 2.5 million in Greater Manchester. But 20 milluon in 2 hour catchment. Why artificially rrestrict the number of peoeple who can access the airport?

And for a 'poor city' MAN with no rrason for anyone here to go down under, it did well to have 4 out of top 10 O+D routes between UK and Austtaola, totalling 250,000 to 275,000 passrmgers annnually in 2019

Iunlikely but if EK and QF tear up their arrangrment, dont rile it out with PER being the hub with other cities the feeder
 
jfk777
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 3:01 pm

Why did it take Qantas until to offer an airplane configured like this. Products like these could be offered on their existing fleet. Those First Class suite certainly belong on the A380.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 3:24 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was there to test the market / operations & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..


Nope, no indication that PER-LHR will be discontinued.

I would expect QF to keep PER-LHR until at least MEL-LHR starts.

The question is, can QF secure, at reasonable prices, good LHR slot pairs? If so, I would expect direct flights to continue from PER leaving the one stop in Australia. I could see 4X/Day QF to LHR
1. SYD-LHR
2. MEL-LHR
3. PER-LHR
4. DXB-LHR (one stop connection)

Lightsaber
 
VV
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 3:38 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Can Airbus tweak the MTOW up a few tons by trading against maintenance tasks set by cycles? These frames will by definition fly low numbers of cycles


You are right. These aircraft will fly at most 360 flights per year.

Normally the engine wear and tear will also be modest considering the fact those airports are at low altitude and moderate temperature even in summer.

So yes, considering the extra fuel capacity required for some missions it is highly likely the MTOW will go beyond the one mentioned in the current type certificate datasheet.
 
jfk777
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 3:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess PER - UK directly is on the way out. It was there to test the market / operations & the 787 could do it from PER.
A future SYD-MAN flight seems likelier then continuing PER - UK flights.

I wonder if CDG, FCO, AMS other places will make sense, how many people are willing to pay extra for avoiding a stop on a holiday trip..


Nope, no indication that PER-LHR will be discontinued.

I would expect QF to keep PER-LHR until at least MEL-LHR starts.

The question is, can QF secure, at reasonable prices, good LHR slot pairs? If so, I would expect direct flights to continue from PER leaving the one stop in Australia. I could see 4X/Day QF to LHR
1. SYD-LHR
2. MEL-LHR
3. PER-LHR
4. DXB-LHR (one stop connection)

Lightsaber


Before the A380 QF had 4 flights daily to LHR, two slots were leased to BA. The Perth flight should continue as there has to be enough demand from there. Lets not assume that because there will be nonstop Sydney to London flights the one stop via Singapore is history. One stop should continue as there is a market for it and a less premium configured plane carrying cargo.
A 777-9, 787-9 or A350 can fly in parallel with the nonstops. Whatever happens with future LHR flights the permutations are interesting in positive ways.
 
UA857
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 3:54 pm

melpax wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I get SYD-JFK, but whatvdemsnd would there be for a nonstop MEL-JFK flight? I could see MEL-LHR. I also expect way more than 12 frames if CDG is also included…as LHR and JFK will require at least 8 frames by themselves and MEL unless done twice weekly would also require another 4. (SYD-DFW could go to a B789.)


There would be nearly as much demand for a MEL-JFK nonstop as for a SYD-JFK flight. Melbourne is also a large centre for financial services. The HQ's of the 4 big Aussie banks are evenly split between MEL & SYD. While Sydney is a major hub for FX & merchant banking, Melbourne is a major hub for Superannuation fund (pension fund) management, and also for Fintecs (Afterpay was established in Melbourne). We're also a large hub for medical research, JFK flights would be very convenient for transfers to Boston. There are also US multinationals that have a large presence in Melbourne, Ford still retains a large R&D operation, and Marsh has their largest office outside of NYC in Melbourne.

With direct flights from MEL/SYD to both NY & London, there might be some changes in business travel patterns. Currently, it's common for execs travelling Australia-LHR to pay a visit to the Singapore office during a stopover (this would also have previously applied to HK). With the Sunrise flights, it could be common for people to do both London & NYC on the same trip, taking either a BA or AA trans-atlantic flight, and picking up a Sunrise flight at the other end. What is currently at least a 5-flight trip would be only 3 flights, and without the dreaded LAX transfer at either end of the trip, and 1 less TSA check.....


Does this mean that it is possible to fly round the world on 3 separate flights SYD-JFK-LHR-SYD? SYD-JFK BA JFK-LHR and QF LHR-SYD.
 
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william
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 4:04 pm

Btblue wrote:
Qantas just published a video of the new First Class on their A350s. I saw that and instantly headed over here.

Good news for Qantas, nice fleet choices.

https://youtu.be/c504mnty-Tc


Very nIce, gives the ME airlines a run for their money luxury wise.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 4:52 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why did it take Qantas until to offer an airplane configured like this. Products like these could be offered on their existing fleet. Those First Class suite certainly belong on the A380.


That's not going to happen. The A380s will start being withdrawn permanently at the end of the decade as they reach their 20 year life. Since the cabin was just refreshed and First Class had only minor changes, that ship has sailed. Not worth it to change it now for 6 to 8 years more service.

VV wrote:
Using my very quick evaluation method I found the extra fuel capacity needs to be at least three times bigger than the one reported by the site previously mentioned ( they reported 20,000 litres).


I trust you're taking into account the reduced weight of the cabin fixtures and fittings, which due to the low density configuration will weigh less than other airlines A350-1000 configurations. For example, no overhead bins in first class, the wellness space and so on. It's partly why Qantas has designed the interior this way, to help with the range.
 
United857
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 5:07 pm

Do we know if the A35K for Sunrise will at least get the software mods the A359ULR got to increase fuel capacity within the tanks before even resorting to additional center tanks in the cargo hold? The standard A359 has a fuel capacity of 37,200 US gallons, while the A359ULR got a software enhancement boosting the capacity to 43,600 US gallons. As far as I'm aware, the A35K standard fuel tank capacity is only 41,900 US gallons, which seems to imply at least another 1,800 US gallons should be available with just a software update.
 
wingman
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 5:14 pm

william wrote:
Btblue wrote:
Qantas just published a video of the new First Class on their A350s. I saw that and instantly headed over here.

Good news for Qantas, nice fleet choices.

https://youtu.be/c504mnty-Tc


Very nIce, gives the ME airlines a run for their money luxury wise.


If you can't lay that mirror flat it won't do the rock stars or the politicians much good. 19 hours is bordering on rehab for most of the lot.
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 5:33 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why did it take Qantas until to offer an airplane configured like this. Products like these could be offered on their existing fleet. Those First Class suite certainly belong on the A380.


That's not going to happen. The A380s will start being withdrawn permanently at the end of the decade as they reach their 20 year life. Since the cabin was just refreshed and First Class had only minor changes, that ship has sailed. Not worth it to change it now for 6 to 8 years more service.

VV wrote:
Using my very quick evaluation method I found the extra fuel capacity needs to be at least three times bigger than the one reported by the site previously mentioned ( they reported 20,000 litres).


I trust you're taking into account the reduced weight of the cabin fixtures and fittings, which due to the low density configuration will weigh less than other airlines A350-1000 configurations. For example, no overhead bins in first class, the wellness space and so on. It's partly why Qantas has designed the interior this way, to help with the range.


Looking at payload range diagrams, 25t payload, including that tank, the new MTOW, the SYD - UK range won't be critical.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/epsilonavi ... nrise/amp/
 
Vicenza
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 6:07 pm

Do Qantas have the Freedom to book/fly passengers JFK-LHR
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 6:31 pm

keesje wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
keesje wrote:
I can see BA topping up their A350-1000 fleet with 6-10 additionalz dedicated to longer flights from LHR and MAN.

I think it makes a big change for airli es tbey don't have to get dedicated ULH aircraft like the A345 and 772LR. A 318t A350-1000 will offer extra fevenue payload on any flight longer than 11, 12 hours.


Possibly.

Are they planning to dump the A380s?


No indication of that. https://simpleflying.com/british-airway ... september/

In total, there will be 238 total seats on each plane, which is the lowest number for any Airbus A350s currently in service. Those seats are spread between four classes of service -- first class, business class, premium economy and economy.


First class wil have a separate seat/bed. Basic economy will still have 33 inch pitch and there will be "Wellbeing Zones" with catering self service & space to stretch.

Image
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html


I didn’t think they’d be rushing to replace.

BA do like to hold on to their aircraft for longer periods.
 
by738
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 6:42 pm

I can’t see MAN-SYD in the near term. Lets see how LHR does before even thinking about that, 2 hrs 20 mill catchment or not.
PER will disappear quicker than you can say cuddly koala as soon as SYD starts.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:10 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why did it take Qantas until to offer an airplane configured like this. Products like these could be offered on their existing fleet. Those First Class suite certainly belong on the A380.


That's not going to happen. The A380s will start being withdrawn permanently at the end of the decade as they reach their 20 year life. Since the cabin was just refreshed and First Class had only minor changes, that ship has sailed. Not worth it to change it now for 6 to 8 years more service.

Actually, from memory, 6-8 years is the average life of an aircraft interior, especially First and Business Classes.
AND a lot can happen to the A380 between now and the end of the decade; so, the CURRENT intent is to withdraw the fleet at the end of the decade, who knows what will really happen.
 
beachroad
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 8:28 pm

David_itl wrote:
beachroad wrote:
Manchester UK on the other hand, has 2.5m residents, very few have any reason to go to Australia, plus it's a poor city


Yes 2.5 million in Greater Manchester. But 20 milluon in 2 hour catchment. Why artificially rrestrict the number of peoeple who can access the airport?

And for a 'poor city' MAN with no rrason for anyone here to go down under, it did well to have 4 out of top 10 O+D routes between UK and Austtaola, totalling 250,000 to 275,000 passrmgers annnually in 2019

Iunlikely but if EK and QF tear up their arrangrment, dont rile it out with PER being the hub with other cities the feeder


I think Anet wisdom is staring down the crazy barrel.

OK. I did actually mention the wider catchment, as you know, but that doesn't change the economic picture hence I mentioned levelling up, as you also know. It's still a poor city in a poor region https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2019

All the regions with an above average wealth (London, East of England, Southeast and Southwest) are served by the London airports. The areas with below average wealth (North East, North West, Yorkshire and the Midlands) are all served by Manchester. That, coupled with almost no Australian interest in flying to Manchester (and roughly 2/3 of Kangaroo route traffic originating in Australia), is why these are the figures:

London to Sydney: 549k
London to Melbourne: 412k
London to Brisbane: 264k
London to Perth: 240k
Manchester to Sydney: 78k
London to Adelaide: 76k
Manchester to Perth: 56k
Manchester to Melbourne: 51k
Manchester to Brisbane: 51k
London to Camberra: 24k
https://www.anna.aero/2019/11/19/the-kangaroo-route-sees-2-2-million-passengers/

So, is Anet wisdom is that QF should drop a 240k a year route for in favour of a 78k a year one? Give me a break :banghead:
 
Opus99
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:20 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
keesje wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Possibly.

Are they planning to dump the A380s?


No indication of that. https://simpleflying.com/british-airway ... september/

In total, there will be 238 total seats on each plane, which is the lowest number for any Airbus A350s currently in service. Those seats are spread between four classes of service -- first class, business class, premium economy and economy.


First class wil have a separate seat/bed. Basic economy will still have 33 inch pitch and there will be "Wellbeing Zones" with catering self service & space to stretch.

Image
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html


I didn’t think they’d be rushing to replace.

BA do like to hold on to their aircraft for longer periods.

BA getting more 350s? Very much so. For long range? I highly doubt it, from MAN? Hell no.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:34 pm

Qantas have said that SYD-SIN-LHR and PER-LHR will continue. We may as well take them at their word until things change, as it’s still 3 years away.

People are massively overstating the East Coast feed to PER-LHR. Hopefully someone can remember the actual number (Qantas mentioned it in 2019) but IIRC the route was something like 85% PER O&D.

Perth is a very wealthy city, large British population, and the likes of RioTinto keep business class full. No reason to assume it can’t support itself.
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:42 pm

Is Manchester catchment area to LHR by high speed train included as London? I can imagine taking the train instead of a double transfer to Australia.
Last edited by keesje on Mon May 02, 2022 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:42 pm

People asking whether BA could do the same, well yes they obviously could, but it’s fairly unlikely. The simple fact is that Australia is of peripheral relevance to BA, compared to importance of LHR and JFK to Qantas. From their perspective, it’s a lot of resources for a fairly marginal route. Moreover, the premium traffic is disproportionately weighted to Australia POS, which gives QF an advantage in this market.

The easiest way to think of this is that if you’re a banker in London or New York, Sydney is far from front of mind, whereas a banker in Sydney wants to be in London or New York. The traffic is from Australia to the big smoke, not so much the other way.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 9:42 pm

G'day

Vicenza wrote:
Do Qantas have the Freedom to book/fly passengers JFK-LHR


Why should there be any restrictions for anyone taking a JFK - SYD - LHR trip? Two successive "Sunrise" trips up very front are likely survivable... :bigthumbsup:

Cheers

Peter
 
Breathe
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 10:03 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Vicenza wrote:
Do Qantas have the Freedom to book/fly passengers JFK-LHR


Why should there be any restrictions for anyone taking a JFK - SYD - LHR trip? Two successive "Sunrise" trips up very front are likely survivable... :bigthumbsup:

Cheers

Peter

No doubt some aviation YouTubers are already planning to make this video when these flights launch with some click-bait title of "I survived two 20 hour Ultra Long haul flights in 48 hours" :lol:
 
tullamarine
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Re: Qantas/Airbus to launch Project Sunrise and firm narrowbody order tomorrow (2 May 22)

Mon May 02, 2022 10:36 pm

Does this mean that it is possible to fly round the world on 3 separate flights SYD-JFK-LHR-SYD? SYD-JFK BA JFK-LHR and QF LHR-SYD.

It's been possible for some time. MEL-DXB, DXB-LAX, LAX-MEL

I would expect QF to keep PER-LHR until at least MEL-LHR starts.

The question is, can QF secure, at reasonable prices, good LHR slot pairs? If so, I would expect direct flights to continue from PER leaving the one stop in Australia. I could see 4X/Day QF to LHR
1. SYD-LHR
2. MEL-LHR
3. PER-LHR
4. DXB-LHR (one stop connection)

QF already own 4 slots. It just depends when the lease on the 2 to BA expire.

Towards the end of the decade, you'd expect QF to be doing
SYD-LHR (35K)
MEL-LHR (35K)
PER-LHR (789)
SYD-SIN-LHR (388)
Once the 380 is retired, demand would determine whether SYD-SIN-LHR is replaced by a 789 or a 35K.
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