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LAXSTEW
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California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 4:59 pm

Didn't see this posted, apologies if I've missed it. Apparently it's the reason our CA bases are closed for incoming transfers.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/03/15/ ... employees/

Curious about your thoughts and what the ramifications could be if Supreme Court upholds the decision.
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 5:06 pm

Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think as a regulatory issue, given that air crews cross multiple time zones, work in multiple states and countries even in a single day, that this authority rightly belongs with the FAA and not individual states.
 
USAirALB
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 5:16 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think she has a corporate PR background (before becoming a UA FA) so her media statements aren't necessarily surprising. That said, it is blatantly obvious that Sara Nelson is doing what is best for her (in terms of future political ambitions) rather than what is best for UA FAs, especially the most junior ones.

I am not a FA and looking at everything from the outside, but I am dying to know when Sara actually last worked a flight and talked to the junior FAs (rather than the senior folks who are making more working the better schedules) about what matters to them.
 
ObadiahPlainman
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 5:50 pm

USAirALB wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think she has a corporate PR background (before becoming a UA FA) so her media statements aren't necessarily surprising. That said, it is blatantly obvious that Sara Nelson is doing what is best for her (in terms of future political ambitions) rather than what is best for UA FAs, especially the most junior ones.

I am not a FA and looking at everything from the outside, but I am dying to know when Sara actually last worked a flight and talked to the junior FAs (rather than the senior folks who are making more working the better schedules) about what matters to them.


The mask issue exposed her for being so grossly out of touch with the vast majority of her membership.

I'm sure this one will be the same. The law of unintended consequences casts a long shadow at times...
 
LAXSTEW
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 8:07 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
I think as a regulatory issue, given that air crews cross multiple time zones, work in multiple states and countries even in a single day, that this authority rightly belongs with the FAA and not individual states.


This is what I’m hoping.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 9:34 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think as a regulatory issue, given that air crews cross multiple time zones, work in multiple states and countries even in a single day, that this authority rightly belongs with the FAA and not individual states.

Given that foreign aircraft are considered foreign soils, how can CA have jurisdiction on the work rules?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 11:04 pm

I can imagine it now. Plane makes an emergency and is on fire. Oops. Can't evacuate because it's mandatory break time.
 
zuckie13
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 11:26 pm

So fixable with just a small change in law by Congress to make it explicitly clear that flight crew labor will be regulated by the FAA.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 11:47 pm

Frankly, I see this as legal…

It applies to California-BASED flight crews, which means the place of employment is in California. That makes them subject to California employment rules, good or bad….

Out-of-Base rules vary greatly by carrier and contract, but could California extend this to them as well??
 
CMA727
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Wed May 04, 2022 11:47 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think as a regulatory issue, given that air crews cross multiple time zones, work in multiple states and countries even in a single day, that this authority rightly belongs with the FAA and not individual states.


I concurr, authority belongs to national/federal aviation agencies.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 am

Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 12:55 am

Italianflyer wrote:
Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.


I don’t see an issue with States making laws which are more restrictive than the agreement under the Railway Labor Act (RLA), going the other way around I could see it being an issue.

There is already a precedent for this, California has state laws for Train workers for maximum hours and rest breaks.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:15 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Frankly, I see this as legal…

It applies to California-BASED flight crews, which means the place of employment is in California. That makes them subject to California employment rules, good or bad….

Out-of-Base rules vary greatly by carrier and contract, but could California extend this to them as well??

United has a hub in SFO, so I assume they have crew based there. What would they do for flights from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times would be greater than four hours. Also, what would happen if a delay occurs mid-flight that pushes a flight past that four or five hour mark.
zeke wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.


I don’t see an issue with States making laws which are more restrictive than the agreement under the Railway Labor Act (RLA), going the other way around I could see it being an issue.

There is already a precedent for this, California has state laws for Train workers for maximum hours and rest breaks.

But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:16 am

Airlines already follow different rules for crews based on where they are based. For example crew based in California can avail themselves of California Kincare (or whatever they call it), while those in Florida have no such thing. So if they treat crew different in that regard, then what legs do they have to stand on for this issue?
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:25 am

AirKevin wrote:
But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.


Sorry I don’t understand your point. There is no reason why flight attendants could not be granted a 10 minute break or a 1/2 hour meal break on a SFO - Hawaii flight.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:33 am

zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.


Sorry I don’t understand your point. There is no reason why flight attendants could not be granted a 10 minute break or a 1/2 hour meal break on a SFO - Hawaii flight.

Who's responsible for the passengers if the flight attendants all go on break. Or are they just going to suspend service for 10-30 minutes.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:41 am

AirKevin wrote:
Who's responsible for the passengers if the flight attendants all go on break. Or are they just going to suspend service for 10-30 minutes.


This is an unreasonable premise. Crew already have breaks in flights. There is no requirement for all crew to have a break at the same time. They obviously would go at different times so some crew remain on duty.
 
32andBelow
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 7:33 am

zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.


Sorry I don’t understand your point. There is no reason why flight attendants could not be granted a 10 minute break or a 1/2 hour meal break on a SFO - Hawaii flight.

The pilots. There aren’t reliefs pilots on 5-6 hour flights
 
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AirKevin
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 10:59 am

32andBelow wrote:
zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. There is no reason why flight attendants could not be granted a 10 minute break or a 1/2 hour meal break on a SFO - Hawaii flight.

The pilots. There aren’t reliefs pilots on 5-6 hour flights

Exactly. Secondary question. Suppose a flight is scheduled for 3 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay for some reason suddenly puts them at 4 hours 15 minutes of flight time. Would the flight attendants and the pilots still need to take a 10-minute break at that point. Or if a flight is scheduled for 4 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay puts them at 5 hours 15 minutes. Do they hold in the air for longer whilst the crew takes their 30-minute meal break. Additionally, where would the meal come from since I don't know how many flights are fully catered with full blown meals on flights of that length.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 11:14 am

32andBelow wrote:
The pilots. There aren’t reliefs pilots on 5-6 hour flights


No reason there could not be one.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 11:16 am

AirKevin wrote:
Exactly. Secondary question. Suppose a flight is scheduled for 3 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay for some reason suddenly puts them at 4 hours 15 minutes of flight time. Would the flight attendants and the pilots still need to take a 10-minute break at that point. Or if a flight is scheduled for 4 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay puts them at 5 hours 15 minutes. Do they hold in the air for longer whilst the crew takes their 30-minute meal break. Additionally, where would the meal come from since I don't know how many flights are fully catered with full blown meals on flights of that length.


I see no reason the break could not happen after they get to the gate.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 11:27 am

zeke wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The pilots. There aren’t reliefs pilots on 5-6 hour flights

No reason there could not be one.

I'm guessing cost and finding available pilots. If they're already struggling now to get pilots for their flights under their current flight schedules, adding relief pilots to flights that short would make that even worse since they aren't going to magically obtain extra pilots out of thin air.
zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Exactly. Secondary question. Suppose a flight is scheduled for 3 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay for some reason suddenly puts them at 4 hours 15 minutes of flight time. Would the flight attendants and the pilots still need to take a 10-minute break at that point. Or if a flight is scheduled for 4 hours 45 minutes, but an in-flight delay puts them at 5 hours 15 minutes. Do they hold in the air for longer whilst the crew takes their 30-minute meal break. Additionally, where would the meal come from since I don't know how many flights are fully catered with full blown meals on flights of that length.

I see no reason the break could not happen after they get to the gate.

Article seems to indicate that this must take place after 4 hours and 5 hours respectively, so in this particular instance, the flight times would blow past that. I don't see anything in the article that suggests that they would be allowed to go over that time.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 11:45 am

AirKevin wrote:
I'm guessing cost and finding available pilots. If they're already struggling now to get pilots for their flights under their current flight schedules, adding relief pilots to flights that short would make that even worse since they aren't going to magically obtain extra pilots out of thin air.


There is no shortage of pilots or flight attendants. Costs should be covered by the tickets sold.

AirKevin wrote:
Article seems to indicate that this must take place after 4 hours and 5 hours respectively, so in this particular instance, the flight times would blow past that. I don't see anything in the article that suggests that they would be allowed to go over that time.


My understanding 3:30 – 6 hrs earns one 10 minute break, 6:01 – 10 hrs 2 x 10 minute breaks. It is not difficult on a 4 hr flight to rotate flight attendants through a 10 minute break. As for meal breaks. if you have worked 0 – 5 hrs, no meal break, 5:01 – 10 hrs, one meal break. So if you flew 5:15, the company would have to pay you for the extra 30 minute meal beak you have after getting to the gate.

I personally dont have a lot of problem with the idea, those of us who are shift workers have been disadvantaged compared to those to have regular 9-5 jobs. What is a normal weekend, what is a holiday weekend.
 
einkleinerknabe
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 12:38 pm

zeke wrote:
My understanding 3:30 – 6 hrs earns one 10 minute break, 6:01 – 10 hrs 2 x 10 minute breaks. It is not difficult on a 4 hr flight to rotate flight attendants through a 10 minute break. As for meal breaks. if you have worked 0 – 5 hrs, no meal break, 5:01 – 10 hrs, one meal break. So if you flew 5:15, the company would have to pay you for the extra 30 minute meal beak you have after getting to the gate.


But there is no requirement or expectation under California (or federal) law that employees be paid for their meal break.
 
zuckie13
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 12:50 pm

zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
But trains can easily pull into a station for a crew change, and I assume commuter trains aren't continuously running routes that are long enough to where this could be an issue. A plane can't just pull over at the nearest cloud for crew break. What do you do for a flight going from SFO to Hawaii or the east coast where the flight times are greater than four hours. Also, what happens if a delay in flight causes the flight to go past the four or five hour mark.


Sorry I don’t understand your point. There is no reason why flight attendants could not be granted a 10 minute break or a 1/2 hour meal break on a SFO - Hawaii flight.


Even when the cabin crew are on "break" they are not by definition of California law. They may be taking a break from serving passengers for a bit, but, they are never on break from their safety duties. To meet this law would require carrying extra cabin crew members so the one on break could truly be relieved from their safety duties.

In many cases, there won't be a jump seat for them, so now the airline has to use a revenue seat for that extra crew.
 
GlobalMoose
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:09 pm

Not a constitutional lawyer (or even a lawyer for that matter), however, doesn't the commerce clause in the Constitution grant the Federal Government jurisdiction over interstate commerce?

Would this fall into one of those caveats? Granted, if the airlines are operating flights only within California (SFO-LAX, for example), maybe then California's work/rest regulations would be enforceable.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 1:15 pm

Simple answer:

Eliminate CA crew bases. Airlines can buy hotels in major CA RON airports and just rotate in cabin crews from outside states and overnight them in CA.

Give the CA cabin crews the option to transfer to non CA crew bases.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 2:36 pm

zeke wrote:
...Crew already have breaks in flights.


They sure do.... sitting in the front or back chatting or glued to their smart phones..... Flew UA First (J) a week and a half ago and even the front end FA's sat and chatted with each other for an extended period of time. They ignored the call button my wife pushed to get some water for a pill she needed to take..... ended up going up front to get it. Pathetic.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 2:37 pm

CMA727 wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
Sara Nelson just can't help herself from being the star of the show in every single matter, can she?

I think as a regulatory issue, given that air crews cross multiple time zones, work in multiple states and countries even in a single day, that this authority rightly belongs with the FAA and not individual states.


I concurr, authority belongs to national/federal aviation agencies.

This must be under the NRA(National Railway Act). The whole point of the NRA is to prevent a hodge podge of state rules.

I believe DOT is the appropriate authority, but whatever, it isn't California.

Lightsaber
 
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janders
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 5:13 pm

Lets see if SCOTUS even accepts this case to be heard.

Italianflyer wrote:
Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.


Its already been through a Federal Appeals Court, and the court in a unanimous decision affirmed that California labor code can govern employee rest and meal breaks for California employees, or work performed in California.

GlobalMoose wrote:
Not a constitutional lawyer (or even a lawyer for that matter), however, doesn't the commerce clause in the Constitution grant the Federal Government jurisdiction over interstate commerce?

Would this fall into one of those caveats? Granted, if the airlines are operating flights only within California (SFO-LAX, for example), maybe then California's work/rest regulations would be enforceable.


The Federal appeals court held that the Commerce Clause does not bar the application of basic California labor law as such laws do not create major impediments to commerce and cited several previous decisions in other industries such as rail where the application of local state laws across the country have been upheld.

They also found Federal aviation laws also do not preempt California requirements concerning meal and rest breaks as they have no negative bearing on aviation safety (in reality it may increase it) nor does it relate to commercial decisions such as competition, pricing, or service.
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 5:24 pm

zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
I'm guessing cost and finding available pilots. If they're already struggling now to get pilots for their flights under their current flight schedules, adding relief pilots to flights that short would make that even worse since they aren't going to magically obtain extra pilots out of thin air.


There is no shortage of pilots or flight attendants. Costs should be covered by the tickets sold.

I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but in the US there certainly is a shortage of pilots and a lot of companies are having trouble staffing flights.
 
N1120A
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 6:15 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
Simple answer:

Eliminate CA crew bases. Airlines can buy hotels in major CA RON airports and just rotate in cabin crews from outside states and overnight them in CA.

Give the CA cabin crews the option to transfer to non CA crew bases.


That's not how it would work. The Labor Code extends to anyone who does work in California, whether or not they live here. If their flight touches the state, the Labor Code and thus the Wage Orders would apply. Bernstein discusses this. This is a much bigger issue than meets the eye.

Of course, a CBA can preempt certain aspects of the Labor Code - including meal and rest breaks. This would primarily affect Delta and JetBlue (at least for some time prior to their union contract being ratified last year). Are any pilots in the US non union?
 
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UPlog
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 8:09 pm

While adopting the rules might be disruptive to airlines to start, I don't see why airline employees should not be afforded the California labor protections.

As has been stated by others, other interstate transportation forms such as trucking and railroads are already subject to California regulations.

California is such a large and critical market (5th largest globally is it was a nation on its own), the industry will figure out how to deal with it, and likely as with other things that orginate in California could be adopted nationwide as the baseline for simplicity sake.
 
32andBelow
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 8:35 pm

UPlog wrote:
While adopting the rules might be disruptive to airlines to start, I don't see why airline employees should not be afforded the California labor protections.

As has been stated by others, other interstate transportation forms such as trucking and railroads are already subject to California regulations.

California is such a large and critical market (5th largest globally is it was a nation on its own), the industry will figure out how to deal with it, and likely as with other things that orginate in California could be adopted nationwide as the baseline for simplicity sake.

To comply would make California either lose all their crew bases or lose all their transcons
 
flight152
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 8:53 pm

zeke wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
I'm guessing cost and finding available pilots. If they're already struggling now to get pilots for their flights under their current flight schedules, adding relief pilots to flights that short would make that even worse since they aren't going to magically obtain extra pilots out of thin air.


There is no shortage of pilots or flight attendants. Costs should be covered by the tickets sold.

You would be very wrong about a shortage of pilots. (At least in the US)
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 9:36 pm

flight152 wrote:
You would be very wrong about a shortage of pilots. (At least in the US)


There is no shortage, the was a halt on hiring during covid, a pilot entering a company takes time to get them online. There is a delay between hiring a pilot and getting them online.

This rule will only apply to pilots employed in CA.
 
32andBelow
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 9:37 pm

zeke wrote:
flight152 wrote:
You would be very wrong about a shortage of pilots. (At least in the US)


There is no shortage, the was a halt on hiring during covid, a pilot entering a company takes time to get them online. There is a delay between hiring a pilot and getting them online.

This rule will only apply to pilots employed in CA.

You’d think airlines would be bringing back all those early retirement pilots to be sim/class contractors.
 
flight152
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 9:39 pm

zeke wrote:
flight152 wrote:
You would be very wrong about a shortage of pilots. (At least in the US)


There is no shortage, the was a halt on hiring during covid, a pilot entering a company takes time to get them online. There is a delay between hiring a pilot and getting them online.

This rule will only apply to pilots employed in CA.

Oh. So the attempted cut of EAS by Skywest due to lack of pilots, and the cut of regional hours due to lack of pilots isn’t a lack of pilots at all. You obviously know better.
 
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zeke
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 9:46 pm

flight152 wrote:
Oh. So the attempted cut of EAS by Skywest due to lack of pilots, and the cut of regional hours due to lack of pilots isn’t a lack of pilots at all. You obviously know better.


This is not something that is unique to the US, IAG and EK have also indicated the same. During covid airlines did no hiring, they even let pilots go, they let pilots retire, they didn’t replace them. When it comes to restoring services they cannot ramp up as fast as they can train pilots.

Regional airlines in the US also pay crap, so first opportunity crew are out of there. I don’t blame them.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Thu May 05, 2022 11:42 pm

N1120A wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
Simple answer:

Eliminate CA crew bases. Airlines can buy hotels in major CA RON airports and just rotate in cabin crews from outside states and overnight them in CA.

Give the CA cabin crews the option to transfer to non CA crew bases.


That's not how it would work. The Labor Code extends to anyone who does work in California, whether or not they live here. If their flight touches the state, the Labor Code and thus the Wage Orders would apply. Bernstein discusses this. This is a much bigger issue than meets the eye.

Of course, a CBA can preempt certain aspects of the Labor Code - including meal and rest breaks. This would primarily affect Delta and JetBlue (at least for some time prior to their union contract being ratified last year). Are any pilots in the US non union?


And the current CBA’s allow for the removal of crew bases as needed.

Cali laws do not supersede federal laws and CBA agreements, so airlines would be within their rights to delete non productive crew bases. Just because it touches CA, does not immediately mean there is
some sort of jurisdiction why CA wil have a say so.
 
N1120A
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Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 7:42 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
N1120A wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
Simple answer:

Eliminate CA crew bases. Airlines can buy hotels in major CA RON airports and just rotate in cabin crews from outside states and overnight them in CA.

Give the CA cabin crews the option to transfer to non CA crew bases.


That's not how it would work. The Labor Code extends to anyone who does work in California, whether or not they live here. If their flight touches the state, the Labor Code and thus the Wage Orders would apply. Bernstein discusses this. This is a much bigger issue than meets the eye.

Of course, a CBA can preempt certain aspects of the Labor Code - including meal and rest breaks. This would primarily affect Delta and JetBlue (at least for some time prior to their union contract being ratified last year). Are any pilots in the US non union?


And the current CBA’s allow for the removal of crew bases as needed.

Cali laws do not supersede federal laws and CBA agreements, so airlines would be within their rights to delete non productive crew bases. Just because it touches CA, does not immediately mean there is
some sort of jurisdiction why CA wil have a say so.


1) California. This isn't Colombia.

2) Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. If there is a CBA (putting agreement after CBA is redundant), the labor code provisions involving breaks and overtime can be bargained away. That is why this would really only affect Virgin America FAs before their unionization in 2016 (the subject case), JetBlue prior to 2021 and Delta.

3) The States can make laws that are more restrictive than federal law, but not less so. The minimum wage in California is at least twice, and in some cases 7 times more than federal law. Any work that involves the working in the State of California is subject to the laws of the State of California, unless otherwise in conflict - such as with the Motor Carrier Act. Neither the MCA, which only covers overtime, nor the FAAA preempt California meal and rest break laws, which applies to all work performed within the State of California - regardless of where the employee lives.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 7:58 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.


It already has been to federal appeals court and Alaska as successor to Virgin America lost. It’s pending petition before SCOTUS.

The argument that it impacts routes and fares and consequently violates the Airline Deregulation Act is the strongest in my opinion and has at least had some success once in court for Delta regarding a RI law.

Airlines have not had much success recently against state and local employment laws by arguing RLA preemption or with commerce clause arguments (see Alaska Airlines Inc. v. Schurke).
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15713
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 9:06 pm

N1120A wrote:
The States can make laws that are more restrictive than federal law, but not less so. The minimum wage in California is at least twice, and in some cases 7 times more than federal law. Any work that involves the working in the State of California is subject to the laws of the State of California, unless otherwise in conflict - such as with the Motor Carrier Act. Neither the MCA, which only covers overtime, nor the FAAA preempt California meal and rest break laws, which applies to all work performed within the State of California - regardless of where the employee lives.


All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."
 
N1120A
Posts: 27313
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 9:14 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
N1120A wrote:
The States can make laws that are more restrictive than federal law, but not less so. The minimum wage in California is at least twice, and in some cases 7 times more than federal law. Any work that involves the working in the State of California is subject to the laws of the State of California, unless otherwise in conflict - such as with the Motor Carrier Act. Neither the MCA, which only covers overtime, nor the FAAA preempt California meal and rest break laws, which applies to all work performed within the State of California - regardless of where the employee lives.


All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."


SFO-OGG is an easy one. As the flight originated in California, the work took place there and the law applies. The real question would be on multi segment trips that involve the state. This wouldn't be different from truck drivers, who are exempt from overtime under the MCA, but not exempt from breaks.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6282
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 9:46 pm

N1120A wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
N1120A wrote:
The States can make laws that are more restrictive than federal law, but not less so. The minimum wage in California is at least twice, and in some cases 7 times more than federal law. Any work that involves the working in the State of California is subject to the laws of the State of California, unless otherwise in conflict - such as with the Motor Carrier Act. Neither the MCA, which only covers overtime, nor the FAAA preempt California meal and rest break laws, which applies to all work performed within the State of California - regardless of where the employee lives.


All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."


SFO-OGG is an easy one. As the flight originated in California, the work took place there and the law applies. The real question would be on multi segment trips that involve the state. This wouldn't be different from truck drivers, who are exempt from overtime under the MCA, but not exempt from breaks.

I still don’t understand how pilots could even comply besides making a 3rd pilot sit in first class and do nothing for most of the flight. And wouldn’t the 3rd pilot have to be a captain to sit in the left seat?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11281
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 9:58 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
Oh California...you're such a constant source of joy & amusement.
There's no way this would make it to SCOTUS...heck this wouldn't make it to the Federal appeals court. Duty regs are set by the FAA. Period. Now ground service personnel may be impacted by state laws...but if it flies, it's Fed. End of story.


It already has been to federal appeals court and Alaska as successor to Virgin America lost. It’s pending petition before SCOTUS.

The argument that it impacts routes and fares and consequently violates the Airline Deregulation Act is the strongest in my opinion and has at least had some success once in court for Delta regarding a RI law.


The Airline Deregulation Act clause pre-empting state regulation was alluded to by Moderator janders but I'll cite the sub-clause:

Except as provided in subparagraph (B), a State, political subdivision of a State, or political authority of 2 or more States may not enact or enforce a law, regulation, or other provision having the force and effect of law related to a price, route, or service of an air carrier or carrier affiliated with a direct air carrier through common controlling ownership when such carrier is transporting property by aircraft or by motor vehicle (whether or not such property has had or will have a prior or subsequent air movement).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41713

...related to a price, route, or service is the key. Defenders of the California law can argue that labor is an input, not an output of price, route or service. States and city can tax aviation fuel. Av fuel is an input.

But I'm not a lawyer, so hey.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Fri May 06, 2022 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15713
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 10:06 pm

N1120A wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
N1120A wrote:
The States can make laws that are more restrictive than federal law, but not less so. The minimum wage in California is at least twice, and in some cases 7 times more than federal law. Any work that involves the working in the State of California is subject to the laws of the State of California, unless otherwise in conflict - such as with the Motor Carrier Act. Neither the MCA, which only covers overtime, nor the FAAA preempt California meal and rest break laws, which applies to all work performed within the State of California - regardless of where the employee lives.


All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."


SFO-OGG is an easy one. As the flight originated in California, the work took place there and the law applies. The real question would be on multi segment trips that involve the state. This wouldn't be different from truck drivers, who are exempt from overtime under the MCA, but not exempt from breaks.


It seems like you’re moving the goalposts. Is it “within California” or “took place there?”
 
N1120A
Posts: 27313
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 10:10 pm

32andBelow wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."


SFO-OGG is an easy one. As the flight originated in California, the work took place there and the law applies. The real question would be on multi segment trips that involve the state. This wouldn't be different from truck drivers, who are exempt from overtime under the MCA, but not exempt from breaks.

I still don’t understand how pilots could even comply besides making a 3rd pilot sit in first class and do nothing for most of the flight. And wouldn’t the 3rd pilot have to be a captain to sit in the left seat?


They wouldn't have to be a captain, just PIC qualified. Most US airline pilots are type rated as PIC, not just SIC, so it wouldn't be an issue. It is sort of like where an FO moves to the left seat on a long haul flight. But yes, they'd be required to be in place to allow a break as required by law.

However, this would all be moot, because no airline pilot in the US that I know of is not subject to a CBA.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27313
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 10:10 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

All right, stupid question time: why is work performed onboard a flight SFO-OGG "work performed within the State of California?" That seems like an odd definition of "within."


SFO-OGG is an easy one. As the flight originated in California, the work took place there and the law applies. The real question would be on multi segment trips that involve the state. This wouldn't be different from truck drivers, who are exempt from overtime under the MCA, but not exempt from breaks.


It seems like you’re moving the goalposts. Is it “within California” or “took place there?”


A distinction without a difference.
 
Metchalus
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:46 pm

Re: California Mandatory Rest for Flight Crews

Fri May 06, 2022 11:11 pm

zeke wrote:
flight152 wrote:
You would be very wrong about a shortage of pilots. (At least in the US)


There is no shortage, the was a halt on hiring during covid, a pilot entering a company takes time to get them online. There is a delay between hiring a pilot and getting them online.

This rule will only apply to pilots employed in CA.


Which means that airlines have a shortage of pilots.

It may be a shortage of their own making but it's a shortage none the less.

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