910A wrote:

I guess it comes down to which passengers were surveyed.

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

lostsound wrote:

I find most the of the B6 bashing is localized to these forums. I've never had a single bad experience with them personally and I fly them several times a year. An hour/2hr delay doesn't mean anything to me after flying AC domestically through Canada in the winter all my life... The general public/pop culture still has a favorable view of B6, especially product wise. They deff have operational challenges they need to get a strong hold on but the hard product in both economy and business are absolutely the best products in the US market and for a decent value compared to the majors with similar products. (at least before the rise in fuel prices...) I don't think the rankings look too out of order given the consistency of WNs operations, low fares and everyone knows what to expect in their bare-ish bones cabins (which are still much more comfortable than Sprit and Frontier's) I see easily how the public would rank it at the top. The poor ranking for WS is inline with my last experience with them a few months ago.

usdcaguy wrote:

lostsound wrote:

I find most the of the B6 bashing is localized to these forums. I've never had a single bad experience with them personally and I fly them several times a year. An hour/2hr delay doesn't mean anything to me after flying AC domestically through Canada in the winter all my life... The general public/pop culture still has a favorable view of B6, especially product wise. They deff have operational challenges they need to get a strong hold on but the hard product in both economy and business are absolutely the best products in the US market and for a decent value compared to the majors with similar products. (at least before the rise in fuel prices...) I don't think the rankings look too out of order given the consistency of WNs operations, low fares and everyone knows what to expect in their bare-ish bones cabins (which are still much more comfortable than Sprit and Frontier's) I see easily how the public would rank it at the top. The poor ranking for WS is inline with my last experience with them a few months ago.

The only things I like about B6 are their IFE and snack selection. That sounds like a lot, but B6 has proven time and again that they cannot get me to my destination on time or at all. I much prefer flying WN, who will get me to my destination on time at least 40% of the time and rarely cancels. I also appreciate their flexible fare rules, free bags and open seating policy. The others have staff full of negativity and incredibly arcane rules around basic economy. WN is not a saint as their fares are often through the roof, but at least you don’t have to play games with them.

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

jetwet1 wrote:

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

Sorry but no. Mint is a far better product than DL/AA/UA first and is IMHO on par with the premium trans con offering.

After the last two years of service cuts up front, I generally expect very little from the legacy carriers.

jetwet1 wrote:

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

Sorry but no. Mint is a far better product than DL/AA/UA first and is IMHO on par with the premium trans con offering.

After the last two years of service cuts up front, I generally expect very little from the legacy carriers.

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

jetwet1 wrote:

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

Sorry but no. Mint is a far better product than DL/AA/UA first and is IMHO on par with the premium trans con offering.

After the last two years of service cuts up front, I generally expect very little from the legacy carriers.

Evaluating AA/DL/UA domestic first to B6 Mint is a very poor comparison. A level evaluation would come from the transcon products of all airlines (which B6 does offer a solid product even comparing like for like products).

910A wrote:

I too have a hard time believing the rankings. Alaska has the second best first class, I don't think so. jetBlue the best airline in North America? I guess it comes down to which passengers were surveyed.

ozark1 wrote:

Why is Air Canada even on the list?

jetwet1 wrote:

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

jetwet1 wrote:

Sorry but no. Mint is a far better product than DL/AA/UA first and is IMHO on par with the premium trans con offering.

After the last two years of service cuts up front, I generally expect very little from the legacy carriers.

Evaluating AA/DL/UA domestic first to B6 Mint is a very poor comparison. A level evaluation would come from the transcon products of all airlines (which B6 does offer a solid product even comparing like for like products).

Why, B6 offers it from various airports, not just on trans con routes, it caused AA/DL/UA to step up their game out of Vegas (my home airport) by offering at least one flight a day with beds, though that was pre covid (no soda up front years for DL). And heck, my customers asked that we switch the comp flights from DL to B6, that's the telling part to me. Is B6 perfect, far from it, but I have 70 pax a week flying NYC-LAS who could ask for any airline and they are solidly taking B6 mint.

But, as rightly pointed out, we all have choices which is a good thing.

ElPistolero wrote:

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

They’ve differentiated between LCCs and legacies in the past - see here: (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study)

“Expectations” are based on price/value-for-money. While Allegiant may not have an objectively superior economy/basic economy hard product to WS (they’re probably very similar) the latter is paired with AC-level prices, not Allegiant prices. Consequently, despite having very similar products, one ends up “above average” and the other ends up rock bottom.

It’s largely down to the price paid for the product - a glass of lemonade at 50c is inevitably perceived more positively a better deal than the same glass of lemonade at $5.

AtlasRise wrote:

jetwet1 wrote:

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Evaluating AA/DL/UA domestic first to B6 Mint is a very poor comparison. A level evaluation would come from the transcon products of all airlines (which B6 does offer a solid product even comparing like for like products).

Why, B6 offers it from various airports, not just on trans con routes, it caused AA/DL/UA to step up their game out of Vegas (my home airport) by offering at least one flight a day with beds, though that was pre covid (no soda up front years for DL). And heck, my customers asked that we switch the comp flights from DL to B6, that's the telling part to me. Is B6 perfect, far from it, but I have 70 pax a week flying NYC-LAS who could ask for any airline and they are solidly taking B6 mint.

But, as rightly pointed out, we all have choices which is a good thing.

In the context of the topic discussion, comparing B6 mint to legacy F/J class is a poor comparison because of the availability component. The majority of B6 aircraft are not configured with mint class and mint is available only on select routes. Meanwhile, almost all of the legacy carriers' aircraft are configured with F/J including medium and large RJs.

910A wrote:

I too have a hard time believing the rankings. Alaska has the second best first class, I don't think so. jetBlue the best airline in North America? I guess it comes down to which passengers were surveyed.

IceCream wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

AtlasRise wrote:

Interpreting the results is simple. It's based on expectations. B6 has the highest ranked F/J class because their customers generally expect less from an LCC. Meanwhile, DL premium customers, for example, expect more from a legacy carrier and will score them more strictly. Maybe JD power should include an "expectations ranking" so to speak.

They’ve differentiated between LCCs and legacies in the past - see here: (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study)

“Expectations” are based on price/value-for-money. While Allegiant may not have an objectively superior economy/basic economy hard product to WS (they’re probably very similar) the latter is paired with AC-level prices, not Allegiant prices. Consequently, despite having very similar products, one ends up “above average” and the other ends up rock bottom.

It’s largely down to the price paid for the product - a glass of lemonade at 50c is inevitably perceived more positively a better deal than the same glass of lemonade at $5.

Allegiant and Westjet definitely do not have very similar products. I have no idea where you're getting that from...

ElPistolero wrote:

IceCream wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

They’ve differentiated between LCCs and legacies in the past - see here: (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study)

“Expectations” are based on price/value-for-money. While Allegiant may not have an objectively superior economy/basic economy hard product to WS (they’re probably very similar) the latter is paired with AC-level prices, not Allegiant prices. Consequently, despite having very similar products, one ends up “above average” and the other ends up rock bottom.

It’s largely down to the price paid for the product - a glass of lemonade at 50c is inevitably perceived more positively a better deal than the same glass of lemonade at $5.

Allegiant and Westjet definitely do not have very similar products. I have no idea where you're getting that from...

The differences between LCCs and ULCCs are largely on the cost-to-airline front, not the customer-facing front. To the extent that they’re on the customer-facing front, they’re too minute to be offset by the identical ULCC seating configuration - they’re both crammed in at 30” - which is the main touch point for both of their clients (physical comfort being a long-standing element of the human experience with any product), and endless nickel-and-diming for Y/basic Y pax.

While WS may be adding a premium product up front, that has no bearing on the back (which makes up the vast majority of its client base). This, in turn, is reflected in the survey.

IceCream wrote:

Compared to AC, WS economy seat Pitch is roughly the same (and this doesn't take into account Rouge which is booked through the main Air Canada website, with its flights not being cheaper than other AC flights even though the seat pitch is lower).

ElPistolero wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Compared to AC, WS economy seat Pitch is roughly the same (and this doesn't take into account Rouge which is booked through the main Air Canada website, with its flights not being cheaper than other AC flights even though the seat pitch is lower).

Which explains why AC has traditionally fared very poorly on these customer satisfaction ratings. I don’t think it’s consistently been below average for the last 6 years (even on long haul).

AC even got lumped in the “the rest” category in 2019 for TATL; the only other carrier ranked that low was Norwegian (DY), a ULCC.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study

IceCream wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Compared to AC, WS economy seat Pitch is roughly the same (and this doesn't take into account Rouge which is booked through the main Air Canada website, with its flights not being cheaper than other AC flights even though the seat pitch is lower).

Which explains why AC has traditionally fared very poorly on these customer satisfaction ratings. I don’t think it’s consistently been below average for the last 6 years (even on long haul).

AC even got lumped in the “the rest” category in 2019 for TATL; the only other carrier ranked that low was Norwegian (DY), a ULCC.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study

So it seems like an AC/WS problem that Flair/Lynx are trying to capitalize on then. Interesting, we'll see if they're successful!