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sea13
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Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 3:26 am

Interesting article by Airline Weekly on Copa’s business plan going forward, specifically after the Gol-Avianca deal proposal. It mentions their Star Alliance membership, quotes from their CEO, partnership with UA, etc.

Wondering what’s people opinion is on Copa’s future. Leave Star Alliance? Find a Latin American airline to partner with such as AM?

https://airlineweekly.com/2022/05/copa- ... 3020289267
 
Kilgen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 2:05 pm

CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.
 
Cxtl1na
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:19 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 2:25 pm

I believe CM's way forward in the long term is to fly to more secondary cities from PTY, it's biggest competitors all have domestic networks to feed their flights onwards. for example: ANF & CJC (Antofagasta and Calama in northern Chile) are wealthy cities with high yielding business traffic (mining) and the population here also has more to spend thanks to that, so you have plenty of people, say, going on holidays to Punta Cana or Cancún. The only option you have is to backtrack (ANF/CJC-SCL-destination) which adds 5 hours to the trip, or u may choose the few frequencies theyve got to LIM.
Many people avoid that by self-connecting with buses. (ANF/CJC bus to Tacna, Arequipa or Lima)
Copa could catch this market by opening flights to cities witch such a profile, in Chile I think about, ANF, CJC and IQQ, maybe even CCP in Peru TRU, IQT (i think these two have been tried already) and CUZ, and more destinations in Brazil. By offering as many one-stop options, that also save time because theres no de-touring between the american continents AV & LAN will be competing with their 'convenient' domestic leg-secondary hub-primary hub-destination (AV and LAN have hubs for certain destinations, like LA uses LIM as a gateway to the US, and BOG to the carribean)
I hope my post can be understood, english is not my 1st language :)
 
Cxtl1na
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:19 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 2:28 pm

Kilgen wrote:
CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.


This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3996
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 2:42 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
Kilgen wrote:
CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.


This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL


Umm. An informal pact to reduce competition between two competitors is likely illegal.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 3:04 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
Kilgen wrote:
CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.


This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL


They do compete against each other in Colombia.
 
Kilgen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 3:08 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
I believe CM's way forward in the long term is to fly to more secondary cities from PTY, it's biggest competitors all have domestic networks to feed their flights onwards. for example: ANF & CJC (Antofagasta and Calama in northern Chile) are wealthy cities with high yielding business traffic (mining) and the population here also has more to spend thanks to that, so you have plenty of people, say, going on holidays to Punta Cana or Cancún. The only option you have is to backtrack (ANF/CJC-SCL-destination) which adds 5 hours to the trip, or u may choose the few frequencies theyve got to LIM.
Many people avoid that by self-connecting with buses. (ANF/CJC bus to Tacna, Arequipa or Lima)
Copa could catch this market by opening flights to cities witch such a profile, in Chile I think about, ANF, CJC and IQQ, maybe even CCP in Peru TRU, IQT (i think these two have been tried already) and CUZ, and more destinations in Brazil. By offering as many one-stop options, that also save time because theres no de-touring between the american continents AV & LAN will be competing with their 'convenient' domestic leg-secondary hub-primary hub-destination (AV and LAN have hubs for certain destinations, like LA uses LIM as a gateway to the US, and BOG to the carribean)
I hope my post can be understood, english is not my 1st language :)


CM used to fly to IQT, but that did not work. They never flew to TRU, but they fly 2x per week to CIX. The problem with Peru is the limits in the air treaty. Right now I think CM has maxed it out on the Panamanian side. Maybe they will let CM open secondary cities, but first I think they would like CIX to stabilize, specially now that the E190 are gone and the smallest plane is the B737-700.

In Brazil, they fly to 6 destinations, 2 more should reopen hopefully next year. They tried VCP in the past, but that did not work and they closed FOR not long ago as well. Maybe if they get codeshares with AD it may work if they try again.

Ecuador, they fly to 2 of their main cities, and the bilateral changed this year to an open sky treaty, so they may open new destinations.

Colombia, they fly to 10 destinations and they will be opening SMR this year.

Chile, well there is not much to say here. CM doesn't step on LA's tail. They have 5-6 fx per day to SCL. Not seeing them opening other destinations for now.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 3:24 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL
This would explain why LA hasn't started late evening LIM-PTY (arrival by midnight), early morning (departure by 0600) PTY-LIM.

In this hemisphere, CM is a different player than AV and LA. Its business model is very CM and really based in Panama location, definitely not that much in PTY O/D.

Any major secondary airport 4h30m or so from PTY is a potential CM destination as it could operate with 2 crews (example: ATL flights right now).
So CM does have a lot of room to grow - within that range - in USA (STL, DFW, HOU, AUS/SAT, RDU, RSW, PBI), Caribbean (VRA, GCM) and South America (MTR, PZO, CUE, AQP, CBB).
But as for CM to Mexico, IMHO, other than MEX, CUN, GDL, MTY and perhaps TIJ, BJX plus NLU/TLC too, whatever traffic PTY hub can get will not sustain permanent operations.
Destinations over that 4h30m flying time do present CM a challenge, be in Brazil, Chile and Argentina, for those, CM could well route flights as TK does and fly PTY-YYY-XXX-PTY 3-4-5 times per week in markets like REC-SSA, SSA-FOR, IQQ-CJC, SLA-TUC..
Would any passenger from those cities complain of the routing? Most likely yes; Would any passenger from those cities be happy of the frequencies CM offers? Yes.
And I'd not be surprised to see CM B737-700 in CWB this year.
Sadly, I believe CM isn't ready (yet) to push DAV and start some kind of SJO/MGA and MIA (non-stop) service from that airport.
 
Kilgen
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 3:35 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Cxtl1na wrote:
This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL
This would explain why LA hasn't started late evening LIM-PTY (arrival by midnight), early morning (departure by 0600) PTY-LIM.

In this hemisphere, CM is a different player than AV and LA. Its business model is very CM and really based in Panama location, definitely not that much in PTY O/D.

Any major secondary airport 4h30m or so from PTY is a potential CM destination as it could operate with 2 crews (example: ATL flights right now).
So CM does have a lot of room to grow - within that range - in USA (STL, DFW, HOU, AUS/SAT, RDU, RSW, PBI), Caribbean (VRA, GCM) and South America (MTR, PZO, CUE, AQP, CBB).
But as for CM to Mexico, IMHO, other than MEX, CUN, GDL, MTY and perhaps TIJ, BJX plus NLU/TLC too, whatever traffic PTY hub can get will not sustain permanent operations.
Destinations over that 4h30m flying time do present CM a challenge, be in Brazil, Chile and Argentina, for those, CM could well route flights as TK does and fly PTY-YYY-XXX-PTY 3-4-5 times per week in markets like REC-SSA, SSA-FOR, IQQ-CJC, SLA-TUC..
Would any passenger from those cities complain of the routing? Most likely yes; Would any passenger from those cities be happy of the frequencies CM offers? Yes.
And I'd not be surprised to see CM B737-700 in CWB this year.
Sadly, I believe CM isn't ready (yet) to push DAV and start some kind of SJO/MGA and MIA (non-stop) service from that airport.


I don't think CM would try DAV-USA because the airport needs to get up to code for US travel. MGA I doubt it, at least from DAV.

I doubt CM would do any YYY-XXX-PTY. They got out of those routes when the NG arrived. The only routes of that type they have are between SJO and GUA.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 4:11 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
I believe CM's way forward in the long term is to fly to more secondary cities from PTY, it's biggest competitors all have domestic networks to feed their flights onwards. for example: ANF & CJC (Antofagasta and Calama in northern Chile) are wealthy cities with high yielding business traffic (mining) and the population here also has more to spend thanks to that, so you have plenty of people, say, going on holidays to Punta Cana or Cancún. The only option you have is to backtrack (ANF/CJC-SCL-destination) which adds 5 hours to the trip, or u may choose the few frequencies theyve got to LIM.
Many people avoid that by self-connecting with buses. (ANF/CJC bus to Tacna, Arequipa or Lima).


CJC is interesting - a small but high-yielding Codelco/Chuqui business market and also some high-end inbound tourism to San Pedro. But would runway performance be an issue? It’s quite high and can be pretty hot.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 4:35 pm

Kilgen wrote:
I don't think CM would try DAV-USA because the airport needs to get up to code for US travel.
Wonder if the current Panamanian government has any desire to get DAV certified for US flights.
MGA I doubt it, at least from DAV.
CM had SJO-MGA, I meant DAV-SJO-MGA.
I doubt CM would do any YYY-XXX-PTY. They got out of those routes when the NG arrived. The only routes of that type they have are between SJO and GUA.
Well, if CM keeps a frame in LIM overnight and has 5th liberty with both Peru and Bolivia, IMO, good thing would be to study LIM-CBB tag-on..
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 5:47 pm

COPA are extremely strong and wealthy. They run a wonderful hub that offers not only convenience but reliability, something not that common in Latin America. My only questions/objections to their model are related to their fleet choice. I believe they would need something smaller than a 737-800 to fly to new markets. Many 3rd tier cities in LA that would benefit from their direct-ish service without flying to their country's capital. I thought the E-190 was a fantastic idea but it seems it didnt work out that well. Maybe the time has come for them to try the A-220? And I also think that a small widebody (B787-800?) would give them a great advantage in their longer flights (PTY-EZE, MVD, GRU, LAX, SFO, JFK) and would allow them to offer a decent Business Class product. But I'm sure they know what they're doing.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 6:23 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
CJC is interesting - a small but high-yielding Codelco/Chuqui business market and also some high-end inbound tourism to San Pedro. But would runway performance be an issue? It’s quite high and can be pretty hot.


Isnt that what the 700 is for?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 8:08 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
CJC is interesting - a small but high-yielding Codelco/Chuqui business market and also some high-end inbound tourism to San Pedro. But would runway performance be an issue? It’s quite high and can be pretty hot.


Isnt that what the 700 is for?


Yeah, but is it enough? It’s 2,000 feet higher than ADD.
 
Kilgen
Posts: 259
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 8:40 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
COPA are extremely strong and wealthy. They run a wonderful hub that offers not only convenience but reliability, something not that common in Latin America. My only questions/objections to their model are related to their fleet choice. I believe they would need something smaller than a 737-800 to fly to new markets. Many 3rd tier cities in LA that would benefit from their direct-ish service without flying to their country's capital. I thought the E-190 was a fantastic idea but it seems it didnt work out that well. Maybe the time has come for them to try the A-220? And I also think that a small widebody (B787-800?) would give them a great advantage in their longer flights (PTY-EZE, MVD, GRU, LAX, SFO, JFK) and would allow them to offer a decent Business Class product. But I'm sure they know what they're doing.


As much as I wish CM gets some WB, they won't. It would break their efficiency model. There are several reasons:
1. PTY is designed to handle NBs. It has WB gates, but depending on the bank, they are full with European Flights or they would lose space for NB.
2. Because CM has NBs, it can unload/load passengers very quickly, thus connections are very efficient at PTY. If they had to unload a WB, it would take longer than having to unload/load 2 NBs at the same time.
3. Because of the flexibility of using NBs, when demand grows or shrink (due to economic reasons, and specially in Latin America, where things may be unpredictable), by having NBs. CM can shift supply quickly by adding or removing flights, or move them to higher demand locations. That is lost if they start having WBs.
4. Also the economics that CM is getting from their NB fleet. They have around 6 cent CASM ex fuel. I bet with WB, that number would go up. They fly their NB in long sectors, thus having a relatively high utilization rate, but with low number of cycles.
5. Also, how many destinations can handle WBs from PTY?
6. This one is speculation on my part, but I think by having NB they are non-threatening to other airlines/countries. I think it has been relatively easier for CM to ask for new fx to certain destinations by having NB, as those governments may not think much about it, vs what would happen is suddenly CM ask to change to use a WB. As a high percentage of CM traffic is connections, I don't think they want to rock the boat and having airlines start complaining to their local governments if CM starts asking for multiple fx with larger capacity planes. And even if CM gets WB, I bet certain governments would not grant those fx if CM had WB. As there is still lots of countries in the Americas that don't have open sky treaties with Panama.

Also, their new Business Class product in the B737-9, is a big improvement by using lie flat seats, vs what they had in the rest of the fleet. The 16 Business Class seats in the B737-800 with 154 seats were better than the 16 in the B737-800 160 seat variety. Better pitch/quality, but still not as competitive as the full lie flat seats. And now that many of the South American airlines are switching to Euro-business class type in the NBs, it should level up if compared to other Business class seats in the region, thus making them closer to comparable to Business class seats of WB in Latin America.

The only way I see them with WB is that either they hit 100 destinations in the Americas, and they decide to jump the pond (which I doubt, as they have very good relationship with European Airlines that fly to PTY, so why compete with them, if CM can benefit as a connection partner vs having to fight against them.), or if Boeing builds the mythical B797 with folding wingtips that fit in a C gate and it has the economics of a NB (which most likely won't happen in the near future).

Yes, I also think they need a smaller NB. Maybe they are waiting for the growing pain of the A220 or the E2 to pass and be more mature planes.
 
2travel2know2
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 8:48 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
COPA are extremely strong and wealthy.
indeed
They run a wonderful hub that offers not only convenience but reliability, something not that common in Latin America. My only questions/objections to their model are related to their fleet choice. I believe they would need something smaller than a 737-800 to fly to new markets.
B737 7 MAX ?
Smaller than the other MAX and with increased range, albeit, not enough for PTY-MAD/LIS non-stop, unless at least half is Business Class cabin (?).
Many 3rd tier cities in LA that would benefit from their direct-ish service without flying to their country's capital. I thought the E-190 was a fantastic idea but it seems it didnt work out that well. Maybe the time has come for them to try the A-220?
CM kind of dislikes having 2 different aircraft providers
And I also think that a small widebody (B787-800?) would give them a great advantage in their longer flights (PTY-EZE, MVD, GRU, LAX, SFO, JFK) and would allow them to offer a decent Business Class product.
When it comes to aircraft size, one noticeable thing on CM, is that the airline focus in frequency rather than capacity. Given a chance, CM would jump into flying PTY-EZE 4-5 times daily.
But I'm sure they know what they're doing.
Many things different than AM, AV and LA.
 
Cxtl1na
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 9:15 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cxtl1na wrote:
Kilgen wrote:
CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.


This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL


Umm. An informal pact to reduce competition between two competitors is likely illegal.


Of course it's illegal, this is why I don't hesitate to go into some detail about this the in a Copa thread, because it's simply wrong and I do wish one day there is justice.
PS LA is no stranger to dirty competition, see cases LAN vs DAP and the merger between Ladeco and LAN.
Last edited by Cxtl1na on Fri May 13, 2022 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cxtl1na
Posts: 29
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 9:18 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Cxtl1na wrote:
Kilgen wrote:
CM will be fine. They survived when Taca and Avianca merged in the past, when LAN and TAM merged, the rise of new low cost airlines in the region, etc. Also CM renewed its strategic alliance with UA last year in May and it expires in 2026. That alliance has antitrust immunity with the DOT. Also, 1 member of CM's board of directors is from UA. It has good relationship with TK. So, I don't see it leaving Star Alliance.

Also, it was one of the few airlines in the region that did not go into chapter 11 nor obtained government help as all its financing was done privately during the covid 19 pandemic. It has turn a net profits in the last 3 quarters. And it is back to 96% of pre pandemic capacity. Most of the destinations that they have not reopened yet (or not stated to be reopened by mid year) are small markets that had 2 to 3 fx per week.

CM has relatively low costs and it only has 1 hub, vs its competitors with multiple hubs. It is highly efficient and due to PTY location, it can handle most if not all important destinations in the Americas using NB vs its competitors that may need to use WB. So CM can offer multiple fx per day to the top destinations in the Americas. It also started offering services to secondary cities in many countries in the Americas.

Now lets start with some hypotheticals. Let say that tomorrow CM and UA relationship terminates. Well, if that is the case, I can see it jumping with SkyTeam, as they used to be in SkyTeam (before CO left and merged with UA). CM still have good relationship with KL (they have a good amount of codeshares. Not as large as the ones with UA, but still it is quite decent for an airline not in Star Alliance). Also, it may look like they have good relationship with LA, as they don't compete directly with each other.


This is because CM and LA have a long running 'pact' where they agreed to not directly compete with each other. Source? ask their employees and it's common knowledge for those who work at SCL


They do compete against each other in Colombia.


Indeed, only in Colombia they compete head on; notice how Copa or Wingo don't fly to any secondary ecuadorian cities, in Peru they have tried flying to IQT, though.
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 9:21 pm

I just made a simulated purchase a few minutes ago, and I discovered with pleasure that they are offering a sort of "restricted" business class product, which is basically a business class seat that doesn't allow refund and some other minor restrictions, but sold at a very very good fare compared with both the economy and the "full" business product. I will not hesitate to take that balanced option in my next vacations to the Caribbean, specially when my only other option ( for around 10 hours of flying time from Chile to Dom Rep, for example ) are the Latam A320's with a single class configuration ( premium economy is basically the same seat with some privileges but the same seat at the end of the day ). I have a very good opinion about CM and I'm glad to see that they are innovating and offering new, good options to travel.
G.
 
Cxtl1na
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:19 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Fri May 13, 2022 9:21 pm

Kilgen wrote:
Cxtl1na wrote:
I believe CM's way forward in the long term is to fly to more secondary cities from PTY, it's biggest competitors all have domestic networks to feed their flights onwards. for example: ANF & CJC (Antofagasta and Calama in northern Chile) are wealthy cities with high yielding business traffic (mining) and the population here also has more to spend thanks to that, so you have plenty of people, say, going on holidays to Punta Cana or Cancún. The only option you have is to backtrack (ANF/CJC-SCL-destination) which adds 5 hours to the trip, or u may choose the few frequencies theyve got to LIM.
Many people avoid that by self-connecting with buses. (ANF/CJC bus to Tacna, Arequipa or Lima)
Copa could catch this market by opening flights to cities witch such a profile, in Chile I think about, ANF, CJC and IQQ, maybe even CCP in Peru TRU, IQT (i think these two have been tried already) and CUZ, and more destinations in Brazil. By offering as many one-stop options, that also save time because theres no de-touring between the american continents AV & LAN will be competing with their 'convenient' domestic leg-secondary hub-primary hub-destination (AV and LAN have hubs for certain destinations, like LA uses LIM as a gateway to the US, and BOG to the carribean)
I hope my post can be understood, english is not my 1st language :)


CM used to fly to IQT, but that did not work. They never flew to TRU, but they fly 2x per week to CIX. The problem with Peru is the limits in the air treaty. Right now I think CM has maxed it out on the Panamanian side. Maybe they will let CM open secondary cities, but first I think they would like CIX to stabilize, specially now that the E190 are gone and the smallest plane is the B737-700.

In Brazil, they fly to 6 destinations, 2 more should reopen hopefully next year. They tried VCP in the past, but that did not work and they closed FOR not long ago as well. Maybe if they get codeshares with AD it may work if they try again.

Ecuador, they fly to 2 of their main cities, and the bilateral changed this year to an open sky treaty, so they may open new destinations.

Colombia, they fly to 10 destinations and they will be opening SMR this year.

Chile, well there is not much to say here. CM doesn't step on LA's tail. They have 5-6 fx per day to SCL. Not seeing them opening other destinations for now.


Yes you have made good points, I should have specified I was not speaking about the TAM or the Colombian branch. Ecuador looks interesting, sending an embraer to a smaller city seems like a logical nest step.
 
S0Y
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:25 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Sat May 14, 2022 3:12 am

CM have it good. They are ideally located at PTY to support low cost NB operations between NA and SA
They have nothing to fear from Gol - AV tie up
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1503
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Sat May 14, 2022 7:00 am

CM has a good hub and network ex PTY. They need to improve on their premium serviced though. The lounge is a aweful and crowded dumb and despise the good hard product in Business Class the soft product is pretty mediocre with bad food and weird service times. If they would work on that Business Flyers would love to fly with them as I currently try to avoid them when traveling just because of their mediocre soft product.
 
stewartg
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Copa’s Business Plan Moving Forward

Sat May 14, 2022 3:06 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
CM has a good hub and network ex PTY. They need to improve on their premium serviced though. The lounge is a aweful and crowded dumb and despise the good hard product in Business Class the soft product is pretty mediocre with bad food and weird service times. If they would work on that Business Flyers would love to fly with them as I currently try to avoid them when traveling just because of their mediocre soft product.


Please compare Business Class to other airlines on same NorthAm to South Am routes. I also used Delta.

I only do the Dulles to Quito route. Having reached Presidential status just before CV-19, did not really mean much. Maybe I was expecting a personal letter of thank you. Like the ones you get from the White House (thought you know it wasnt really POTUS that signed it). But at the counter, I get treated OK just because the agents know me from week to week and not because they see my top status on the screen. I usually get yelled at for walking on the blue mat by the girl on the floor. Guilty until I can prove I have credentials to walk over it. And I do say girl because men tend to me more amicable at Copa for some reason.

Hard product is a toss. You might get the 57in pitch seats or the regular ones. With delta you only have the shorter pitch on the 757

Soft product: I found food and attention was superior to Delta. Delta throws you a personal bottle of water and a tray of food. Copa use to prepare each tray in the galley and bring it to you nicely presented.

Panama: 90% of agents are grumpier than the postal service. Copa club was as mediocre as any lounge I've seen at Dulles with the exception of Turkish which serves excellent food. You will only be able to use the new Club in T2 if your connecting flight is in T2; else it will be miles to walk/run.

Bags: Priority tag on a bag means nothing. Delta makes you feel special in that your bag IS indeed waiting for you. When you arrive at Dulles, COPA agent always blames Panama crew for not loading bags correctly. I've suggested they hold a few regular bags until the Priority ones come off the plane. They usually give me the stare and walk off....

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