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TYWoolman
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:11 am

Wneast wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-jetblue-ceo-optimistic-airline-225746488.html Looks like they might actually be talking now no surprise.

Geez, does Mr. Hayes have to continue to rub it in?Just negotiate now for peace sake.
Last edited by TYWoolman on Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
santi319
Posts: 1389
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:24 am

bob75013 wrote:
santi319 wrote:


If anything, ULCC cabin crews should be paid more than their counterparts because they are responsible for more passengers per capita than regular airlines…



Ahhh, no. Rules are one FA per 50 passengers. So 175 passengers on NK requires the same number of FAs as 175 pax on DL.

Get it to 201 pax and both NK and DL have the same number of FAs


You missed the point:
NK and F9 have 180+ pax on their A320
DL has 157 and B6 162

Same aircraft wayyy less density in mainline carriers.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:19 am

Thomaas wrote:
I find it funny that some say JetBlue was only ever successful at JFK and BOS, when those two are some of the most competitive markets in the country.


Actually, they are not - far from it. They have slot, gate, and other operational restrictions on top of high costs to prevent competitors from expanding.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:19 am

fastmover wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
fastmover wrote:


So do you really think JetBlue management is his winging it here? I get that you don’t see it but obviously they do.


Heck yeah, JetBlue management is winging it. Just like the wing it with operations, finance, IT and planning. The only areas where JetBlue doesn’t wing it is marketing and product development.



Really they put together this deal by winging it? Uh huh


Winging it is relative, but the level of professionalism and coordination pales in comparison to peers. It’s junior league in many functions, papered over by world-class marketing and branding teams.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:47 am

VS4ever wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
fastmover wrote:

Oh come on are you an airline exec? Are you privy to all the numbers JetBlue knows? Look I’ll grant you they have a hard time in day to day stuff, but this kind of thing is not some guess.


So I need to be an exec of a major airline to ask how B6 expects to compete in these fortress hubs of the Big 4?

You have yet to provide a counter to any of the points I've made, you just keep essentially saying B6 knows what they are doing, so just trust them.

Vicenza wrote:

Valid enough indeed, but it is fair to assume that they know what they are doing, or in what direction, than the pure guessing of a.net. Indeed, one could equally say "because a.net said so" is just silly.


It's not a.net "guessing," it's questioning

a) B6 has not proven it can profitably expand outside of NYC/BOS and Florida. RDU & PHL were failures, and they still have a very token presence in LA (outside of their focus city routes).

b) B6 is going from a couple or zero flights to 20-30-40+ flights essentially "overnight" in many markets. Unlike other mergers, they are appealing to a complete different market segment than the airline they are trying to acquire, so they are entering with a blank slate.

c) B6 is going to need to embark on a massive capex project for this merger, in addition to the increased interest expense that will further increase their CASM making it harder to compete on fares

d) NK's network in many markets involves hub-hub routes or at least high frequency routes for the US3 + WN, ATL-DTW/MSP, DFW-ORD/PHL/PHX, MSP-DTW, ORD-DEN, e.t.c.

I don't see why it is surprising that I would be skeptical of their potential success in their expansion.

All the extra gates, slots, planes, e.t.c. are great, but they need to be able to be profitable in using them. I haven't seen anyone make any arguments to why they would be accretive to B6's earnings, just saying that "mgmt knows what they are doing"


I’m going to pose some comments right back to you

B6’s stated aim in life is “taking customers from BOS and NYC where they want to go”. So

Do they really care that much about fighting for position at RDU and PHL, when it’s more about getting Folks in, than getting them out?

If the NEA remains in any major form, profits will be made from the economies of scale already found at BOS and NYC airports, again, picking up passengers from airports where there is significant competition is less of an issue, but so let’s remember B6 without NEA was #1 in Boston and has been for many years, so there is a certain draw to them on those routes by sheer volume metrics alone.

Some of those NK 321’s will magically turn to Mint options I bet, which by many accounts is one of the most profitable and well loved sections of B6 flying.

Building up 20-30 flights a day at say ORD or ATL actually won’t cost them a hell of a lot of money, the real estate is already there. Will it be as profitable as NK with their more dense aircraft configs and a la carte offerings, no, but it’s never been about that. It’s been about grabbing the resources to accelerate their growth plans by many years.

B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.

Every $$ earned is accretive by sheer definition, B6 will make more money, but may not be as much in % terms as NK was. Given the apparent stance of the shareholders, which I have said ad nauseum have feet in both camps. That appears to be an acceptable situation, even with the additional debt load B6 will carry.

B6 have just refurbished pretty much their entire fleet of 320’s (bar 11) and have added 12 seats to each aircraft right in the middle of Covid, so the impact of that is really yet to be felt and if they can do that to 150 of their existing aircraft turning 173 yellow bananas into B6 format won’t be too much of a challenge, bit more expensive for the 2 coats of Sherwin Williams primer to cover up the yellow and they will look good as new.

Also. NK own 106 of their aircraft, sure many will be financed, but I bet a bunch of the older ones will be closer to paid off. B6 could sale and leaseback those aircraft to generate cash to pay off the debt, if the terms worked in favor to do so.

As I’ve said before, the order of application depends on the success in the court case in September, if they win:
1. NEA
2. Existing Focus Cities
3. Hub flying where NK can give them a bit more critical mass
4. Anywhere else, even Canada

Meanwhile they can work on building up the European operation with the existing B6 order book, increase profitability with the exit stage left of the 190’s and intro of the 220’s, plus the impact of the additional seats on the 320’s. Those will help support the integration work of the NK fleet and the transition over the next couple of years.
If needed they can jettison more of the older 320’s and maybe the NK 319’s take a walk somewhere else.

Many ways to skin a cat.. it’s a hell of a lot to digest, will grant you that and they won’t be able to take their eye off the ball for a minute. But the i’s have been dotted, the t’s have been crossed, they will have created a 3-5 year plan as part of the due diligence, then it all comes down to 1 single word

Execution

Can they execute on it all. With the existing team I’m not 100% sure, but I’ve been through enough mergers to know, you can’t even proceed without having your ducks in a row, the investors won’t let you out of the starting gate.

But stop thinking that B6 has to be all things to all people even with this merger, they do not, they will not be and if you need rule #2, reread rule #1 above
“We take people from BOS/NYC to places they want to go”, once you understand that, the rest of their logic falls into place.


I agree with you but it’s not going to be easy for JetBlue.

Joint collective bargaining agreement with the pilots is paramount. As I said before, the floodgates will open when senior NK pilots type rated for the Airbus decide they will like to spend more time closer to home by transferring to the A220. Most airline flight ops training simulators and ground school services are already booked solid with recurrent as well as new hire training. Now B6 will have pilots out of service for a minimum of 30 days.

JetBlue’s eyes will probably be focused on the A320 Neo’s. Set up a fast track conversation in order to introduce that sub fleet and quickly remove the last of the E-190’s. Unfortunately again, this will adversely effect the flight ops team because of the E190 / Airbus type rating conversion.

B6 is ready to incur a tremendous amount of debt for acquisition of NK, labor contracts, NK and B6 fleet procurement, training, SOC requirements, interior replacements as well as legal fees to prevent an injunction of NEA.
 
Airlinerguy
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:43 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:23 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

But yet you claim to speak for all Frontier FA's when claiming they don't want to work.


This is why we need to stop engaging with such users. “FA’s. don’t wanna work” is a lazy condescending argument, just to insult a workforce because of their airlines’ choice of a business model.

All these airlines’ crews have to evacuate passengers in an emergency. If anything, ULCC cabin crews should be paid more than their counterparts because they are responsible for more passengers per capita than regular airlines…

Go ask spirit FAs how they feel about having to do 1-2 services per flight, giving out drinks and snacks to every passenger, and cleaning the planes between flights. As it is now, they serve the 5% of customers who buy onboard. They don’t serve anything else or provide any other service or cleaning. I have yet to talk to any who are looking forward to that. I just flew with a former spirit FA who left for jetblue about 6 months ago. She said it was a lot more work at jetblue but that she hopes it’s better career wise. It’s not condescending. It’s just the nature of the job. A buy onboard only service once a flight vs 1-2 services and trash pickups, plus plane cleaning. It’s a lot more work.

And FAs don’t really get paid to evacuate pax. There are very few who have actually done it. And all FAs are responsible for up to 50 pax. B6 A321s have 200 seats. 50 per FA. So, your point is just wrong, just like your other one. Various configs at each of the carriers, but federal law mandates the max ratio.


FA don't really get paid to evacuate passengers is one of the most condescending and ignorant comments I've read on this forum. How about you go through 5 to 6 weeks of in-flight training and then work on the line for about 3 months and then comment on their actual role.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:44 am

fastmover wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

It's not a.net "guessing," it's questioning

a) B6 has not proven it can profitably expand outside of NYC/BOS and Florida. RDU & PHL were failures, and they still have a very token presence in LA (outside of their focus city routes).

b) B6 is going from a couple or zero flights to 20-30-40+ flights essentially "overnight" in many markets. Unlike other mergers, they are appealing to a complete different market segment than the airline they are trying to acquire, so they are entering with a blank slate.

c) B6 is going to need to embark on a massive capex project for this merger, in addition to the increased interest expense that will further increase their CASM making it harder to compete on fares

d) NK's network in many markets involves hub-hub routes or at least high frequency routes for the US3 + WN, ATL-DTW/MSP, DFW-ORD/PHL/PHX, MSP-DTW, ORD-DEN, e.t.c.

I don't see why it is surprising that I would be skeptical of their potential success in their expansion.

All the extra gates, slots, planes, e.t.c. are great, but they need to be able to be profitable in using them. I haven't seen anyone make any arguments to why they would be accretive to B6's earnings, just saying that "mgmt knows what they are doing"


The other thing I'd toss into this, is that the majors have a history of ignoring NK & F9 to a point. They've essentially decided that those airlines are so cheap they're not going to compete, and just let NK & F9 take the garbage fares, since its likely that those passengers wouldn't have flown the major anyway. The problem is if B6 goes in charges higher fares than NK, but still below the majors, the majors then have more of an incentive to match, since the product is more comparable to theirs and its possible that B6 will gain more of a foothold. Essentially the pattern with the majors is they'll fight B6, but they'll just ignore NK, F9, and SY.

B6 has had multiple opportunities during the last 15 years to establish a focus city or hub at an other than JFK or BOS and they've not been successful. So the question I'd put out there to the pro-NK/B6 merger folks, why would this time be any different?



That’s kind of the point. The know they can only stay this size for so long. That’s what the merger is for. Instant size and scale which they need.


So the point is to grow to where they’re a target for DL & UA? Those two will have some capacity control, but they’ll defend their turf and make it hard for B6 to expand.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 am

I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 786
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:31 am

Airlinerguy wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
santi319 wrote:

This is why we need to stop engaging with such users. “FA’s. don’t wanna work” is a lazy condescending argument, just to insult a workforce because of their airlines’ choice of a business model.

All these airlines’ crews have to evacuate passengers in an emergency. If anything, ULCC cabin crews should be paid more than their counterparts because they are responsible for more passengers per capita than regular airlines…

Go ask spirit FAs how they feel about having to do 1-2 services per flight, giving out drinks and snacks to every passenger, and cleaning the planes between flights. As it is now, they serve the 5% of customers who buy onboard. They don’t serve anything else or provide any other service or cleaning. I have yet to talk to any who are looking forward to that. I just flew with a former spirit FA who left for jetblue about 6 months ago. She said it was a lot more work at jetblue but that she hopes it’s better career wise. It’s not condescending. It’s just the nature of the job. A buy onboard only service once a flight vs 1-2 services and trash pickups, plus plane cleaning. It’s a lot more work.

And FAs don’t really get paid to evacuate pax. There are very few who have actually done it. And all FAs are responsible for up to 50 pax. B6 A321s have 200 seats. 50 per FA. So, your point is just wrong, just like your other one. Various configs at each of the carriers, but federal law mandates the max ratio.


FA don't really get paid to evacuate passengers is one of the most condescending and ignorant comments I've read on this forum. How about you go through 5 to 6 weeks of in-flight training and then work on the line for about 3 months and then comment on their actual role.


What percentage of FAs have ever evacuated passengers? Just curious.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 786
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:32 am

F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:37 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:36 am

VS4ever wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
fastmover wrote:

Oh come on are you an airline exec? Are you privy to all the numbers JetBlue knows? Look I’ll grant you they have a hard time in day to day stuff, but this kind of thing is not some guess.


So I need to be an exec of a major airline to ask how B6 expects to compete in these fortress hubs of the Big 4?

You have yet to provide a counter to any of the points I've made, you just keep essentially saying B6 knows what they are doing, so just trust them.

Vicenza wrote:

Valid enough indeed, but it is fair to assume that they know what they are doing, or in what direction, than the pure guessing of a.net. Indeed, one could equally say "because a.net said so" is just silly.


It's not a.net "guessing," it's questioning

a) B6 has not proven it can profitably expand outside of NYC/BOS and Florida. RDU & PHL were failures, and they still have a very token presence in LA (outside of their focus city routes).

b) B6 is going from a couple or zero flights to 20-30-40+ flights essentially "overnight" in many markets. Unlike other mergers, they are appealing to a complete different market segment than the airline they are trying to acquire, so they are entering with a blank slate.

c) B6 is going to need to embark on a massive capex project for this merger, in addition to the increased interest expense that will further increase their CASM making it harder to compete on fares

d) NK's network in many markets involves hub-hub routes or at least high frequency routes for the US3 + WN, ATL-DTW/MSP, DFW-ORD/PHL/PHX, MSP-DTW, ORD-DEN, e.t.c.

I don't see why it is surprising that I would be skeptical of their potential success in their expansion.

All the extra gates, slots, planes, e.t.c. are great, but they need to be able to be profitable in using them. I haven't seen anyone make any arguments to why they would be accretive to B6's earnings, just saying that "mgmt knows what they are doing"


I’m going to pose some comments right back to you

B6’s stated aim in life is “taking customers from BOS and NYC where they want to go”. So

Do they really care that much about fighting for position at RDU and PHL, when it’s more about getting Folks in, than getting them out?

If the NEA remains in any major form, profits will be made from the economies of scale already found at BOS and NYC airports, again, picking up passengers from airports where there is significant competition is less of an issue, but so let’s remember B6 without NEA was #1 in Boston and has been for many years, so there is a certain draw to them on those routes by sheer volume metrics alone.

Some of those NK 321’s will magically turn to Mint options I bet, which by many accounts is one of the most profitable and well loved sections of B6 flying.

Building up 20-30 flights a day at say ORD or ATL actually won’t cost them a hell of a lot of money, the real estate is already there. Will it be as profitable as NK with their more dense aircraft configs and a la carte offerings, no, but it’s never been about that. It’s been about grabbing the resources to accelerate their growth plans by many years.

B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.

Every $$ earned is accretive by sheer definition, B6 will make more money, but may not be as much in % terms as NK was. Given the apparent stance of the shareholders, which I have said ad nauseum have feet in both camps. That appears to be an acceptable situation, even with the additional debt load B6 will carry.

B6 have just refurbished pretty much their entire fleet of 320’s (bar 11) and have added 12 seats to each aircraft right in the middle of Covid, so the impact of that is really yet to be felt and if they can do that to 150 of their existing aircraft turning 173 yellow bananas into B6 format won’t be too much of a challenge, bit more expensive for the 2 coats of Sherwin Williams primer to cover up the yellow and they will look good as new.

Also. NK own 106 of their aircraft, sure many will be financed, but I bet a bunch of the older ones will be closer to paid off. B6 could sale and leaseback those aircraft to generate cash to pay off the debt, if the terms worked in favor to do so.

As I’ve said before, the order of application depends on the success in the court case in September, if they win:
1. NEA
2. Existing Focus Cities
3. Hub flying where NK can give them a bit more critical mass
4. Anywhere else, even Canada

Meanwhile they can work on building up the European operation with the existing B6 order book, increase profitability with the exit stage left of the 190’s and intro of the 220’s, plus the impact of the additional seats on the 320’s. Those will help support the integration work of the NK fleet and the transition over the next couple of years.
If needed they can jettison more of the older 320’s and maybe the NK 319’s take a walk somewhere else.

Many ways to skin a cat.. it’s a hell of a lot to digest, will grant you that and they won’t be able to take their eye off the ball for a minute. But the i’s have been dotted, the t’s have been crossed, they will have created a 3-5 year plan as part of the due diligence, then it all comes down to 1 single word

Execution

Can they execute on it all. With the existing team I’m not 100% sure, but I’ve been through enough mergers to know, you can’t even proceed without having your ducks in a row, the investors won’t let you out of the starting gate.

But stop thinking that B6 has to be all things to all people even with this merger, they do not, they will not be and if you need rule #2, reread rule #1 above
“We take people from BOS/NYC to places they want to go”, once you understand that, the rest of their logic falls into place.


Thank you for an actual response, instead of just saying "mgmt knows what they are doing:"

Sure I 100% agree that's been B6's goal......BUT my point was that they have made concerted efforts to grow outside of that BOS/NYC/Florida bubble and each time it hasn't worked.
B6’s stated aim in life is “taking customers from BOS and NYC where they want to go”. So

Do they really care that much about fighting for position at RDU and PHL, when it’s more about getting Folks in, than getting them out?


I agree there is most certainly a draw to B6 in NEA markets, and room for increased profitability there.
If the NEA remains in any major form, profits will be made from the economies of scale already found at BOS and NYC airports, again, picking up passengers from airports where there is significant competition is less of an issue, but so let’s remember B6 without NEA was #1 in Boston and has been for many years, so there is a certain draw to them on those routes by sheer volume metrics alone.


Yes, it is partially about accelerating growth plans, but they forecast an immediate increase in profitability due to this merger. I can't see a situation where NK's former large markets are bleeding money, and B6 is still able to grow profitability.
http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/~/media/Fi ... -22-vf.pdf

Building up 20-30 flights a day at say ORD or ATL actually won’t cost them a hell of a lot of money, the real estate is already there. Will it be as profitable as NK with their more dense aircraft configs and a la carte offerings, no, but it’s never been about that. It’s been about grabbing the resources to accelerate their growth plans by many years.


B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


I said accretive to earnings not accretive to revenue. EX: Going from 1k in revenue & 10% margin to 10k in revenue & 5% margin is not accretive to earnings.

I haven't seen any articles saying B6's shareholders are supportive of this transaction from B6's position. See post #518, their share price dropped 20% in the two days after they announced this, and it received numerous downgrades from Wall Street and Credit Analysts.

No reports have said this was good at all for B6's bottom line, hence why it's share price is trading near its 2020 lows, trading significantly below its book value per share, and barely above the value of its cash on the balance sheet.

The shareholders for B6 hold shares in literally every other airline. Vanguard, B6 & NK's 2nd and 1st largest shareholders, also is the largest shareholder of WN, UA, AA, DL, and AS (with their B6 & NK positions being a fraction of their position in those airlines). Similar story for Primecap, Fidelity, Blackrock, e.t.c. In other words, they aren't operating in a vacuum.

Every $$ earned is accretive by sheer definition, B6 will make more money, but may not be as much in % terms as NK was. Given the apparent stance of the shareholders, which I have said ad nauseum have feet in both camps. That appears to be an acceptable situation, even with the additional debt load B6 will carry.


It will be more than 173 planes, NK will be at 230 by next year.
https://ir.spirit.com/resources/fleet-plan/default.aspx

The A320 refurbishment has been an incredibly long process, spreading out the cost over many years, and they deferred multiple other costs to ensure it had a minimal impact on the bottom line, this project will basically be the opposite of that.

Not saying they can't do it, just saying it will be a large drag on cost for years to come.
B6 have just refurbished pretty much their entire fleet of 320’s (bar 11) and have added 12 seats to each aircraft right in the middle of Covid, so the impact of that is really yet to be felt and if they can do that to 150 of their existing aircraft turning 173 yellow bananas into B6 format won’t be too much of a challenge, bit more expensive for the 2 coats of Sherwin Williams primer to cover up the yellow and they will look good as new.


I disagree, this merger positions B6 differently then you are insinuating:

This is the title of their announcement:
"JetBlue Submits Superior Proposal to Acquire Spirit, Positioning America’s Much-Loved Airline as the Most Compelling National Low-Fare Challenger to the ‘Big Four’ Airlines

This is what they say about growth:
"The transaction would allow JetBlue to grow in its focus cities like Los Angeles, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, and San Juan, as well as in legacy hubs where the dominant carriers control with high fares, including Las Vegas, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, and Miami."
http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/investor-r ... -213908929

They've made it clear they view the Northeast as somewhat separate from this plan. (but yes, growing national indirectly boosts their relevance in the northeast)

But stop thinking that B6 has to be all things to all people even with this merger, they do not, they will not be and if you need rule #2, reread rule #1 above
“We take people from BOS/NYC to places they want to go”, once you understand that, the rest of their logic falls into place.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:48 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:

How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.

Yeah. Ok. That’s why B6 has hired NK pilots and FAs this year and not the other way around. Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better.


Tell myself to feel better? I’m speaking verifiable fact. You can literally see the Spirit FA contract by googling it. Show me the JetBlue FA CBA says the same things. I’ll start a clock right now while I wait. Oh…. Another fun fact…. I’ve seen the 2022 Spirit pilot attrition breakdown current as of well this week…. 1 pilot to JetBlue. One. 1 pilot. Not even 2 so you can say pilots like you said.

Come on. Do better.


Flight Attendants

https://spiritafa.org/wp-content/upload ... 6-2021.pdf

Ramp

https://iam141.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... eement.pdf
 
CDGIAD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:28 am

When can we expect to have a final result/answer regarding the vote on the hostile offer by jetBlue and the potential evolution to the first merger scenario Spirit+Frontier ?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:02 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


I get that argument, but what happened to something called "work ethic"? With due respect to NK FAs (if that's their collective stance on the matter) what do they do when not doing those extra things? I am of the belief that if you give someone more responsibility, you just become better all around. In addition, cleaning ones own plane I would think gives you appreciation and respect for the level of service you provide on the aircraft and incentivizes a clean and efficient op from the get-go. There's no off-loading of responsibilities.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:16 am

CDGIAD wrote:
When can we expect to have a final result/answer regarding the vote on the hostile offer by jetBlue and the potential evolution to the first merger scenario Spirit+Frontier ?


I don’t think this has a predefined schedule. Sure there is a shareholder meeting scheduled in 20 some days, but it looks like JetBlue is meeting with Spirit, and undoubtedly Spirit continues to meet with Frontier. So something will happen, but it’s not as if there is a checklist for how this proceeds.

FWIW, one of Spirit’s filings had a day by day account of the merger negotiations, and they happened over months. So it might take some time.
 
SoCalFlyer
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:20 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.


Just to chime in, the SPIRIT CBA is 100% not superior to Jetblue. The only thing they have that may be superior is the ability to drop to zero, and they have a flat duty day of 16hrs. That's it. Have you read the 2 CBAs side by side? I think you should. They have no reschedule pay language, no language regarding long stay hotel, They(SPIRIT) have what's called a red-eye +1 which means they can operate a leg after a red-eye. The list keeps going. They get paid something like $50 flat rate for holiday pay, whereas JetBlue FAs get paid double pay for every hour worked on a holiday.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:28 am

TYWoolman wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


I get that argument, but what happened to something called "work ethic"? With due respect to NK FAs (if that's their collective stance on the matter) what do they do when not doing those extra things? I am of the belief that if you give someone more responsibility, you just become better all around. In addition, cleaning ones own plane I would think gives you appreciation and respect for the level of service you provide on the aircraft and incentivizes a clean and efficient op from the get-go. There's no off-loading of responsibilities.


“Work ethic” is an invented concept to get as much out of employees as possible, for as little money as possible.

Yes we often see FAs as in flight restaurant servers, but really the only reason they’re onboard is to provide safety. Greyhound buses don’t have anyone onboard to provide safety and you can be sure if the FAA would allow it, every airline would reduce the number of FAs, perhaps to zero. So being onboard, performing safety checks before takeoff and landing, and responding to any safety issues is the job as required by the FAA.

Most airlines have added serving food and drinks to the job, since that happens during a time the safety tasks are not as prominent. However, Spirit doesn’t have anywhere near the volume of food and drinks to serve due to the BYOB nature, so that really isn’t part of the job for Spirit FAs.

Besides the Spirit model means that there are employees needed on the ground to clean the plane, so that is a net increase in employment.
 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:30 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.



I think the spirit pilots would like the JetBlue pay rate.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:31 am

 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:33 am

TYWoolman wrote:
Wneast wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-jetblue-ceo-optimistic-airline-225746488.html Looks like they might actually be talking now no surprise.

Geez, does Mr. Hayes have to continue to rub it in?Just negotiate now for peace sake.



That’s what they are doing.
 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:45 am

USAirKid wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


I get that argument, but what happened to something called "work ethic"? With due respect to NK FAs (if that's their collective stance on the matter) what do they do when not doing those extra things? I am of the belief that if you give someone more responsibility, you just become better all around. In addition, cleaning ones own plane I would think gives you appreciation and respect for the level of service you provide on the aircraft and incentivizes a clean and efficient op from the get-go. There's no off-loading of responsibilities.


“Work ethic” is an invented concept to get as much out of employees as possible, for as little money as possible.

Yes we often see FAs as in flight restaurant servers, but really the only reason they’re onboard is to provide safety. Greyhound buses don’t have anyone onboard to provide safety and you can be sure if the FAA would allow it, every airline would reduce the number of FAs, perhaps to zero. So being onboard, performing safety checks before takeoff and landing, and responding to any safety issues is the job as required by the FAA.

Most airlines have added serving food and drinks to the job, since that happens during a time the safety tasks are not as prominent. However, Spirit doesn’t have anywhere near the volume of food and drinks to serve due to the BYOB nature, so that really isn’t part of the job for Spirit FAs.

Besides the Spirit model means that there are employees needed on the ground to clean the plane, so that is a net increase in employment.




Absolutely they basically do the Buy on board stuff and call it a day. That’s not to take anything away from spirit FAs but they don’t have to do near the drink and food service like JetBlue. It would be a big change.
 
11C
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:46 am

Just to switch gears from the FA topic, does anyone find it interesting that the daily press release from Jetblue has gone silent? Pure speculation, as is virtually everything posted above, but it suggests to me that maybe there is some actual engagement between the parties. Where it all leads, who knows, but my guess is that there could be actual discussions happening, which would require public disclosures to cease.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1830
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:50 am

Maybe Spirit's plan is to delay until rising interest rates make this deal untenable. And why B6 is in a hurry.
Rumor is the FED's may raise rates .75% next meeting. Some believe rates will go up 2.5 % in total this year since the buyout was announced. This would increase the cost of funding this merger by $75 million in the first year.

I imagine that a company with a non-investment grade bond rating may see the rates going up even more.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:54 am

fastmover wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
fastmover wrote:


JetBlue already told you what they want to do. They want to be the 5th largest carrier with a more rounded route network.

Nobody said it would be easy, but you were probably also in the camp of mint would never work, they can’t get slots in London oh and part of the group on here that said this will be an f9 deal, yet here we are with spirit pushing that done deal f9 meeting back.


Mint and flying to London essentially is just an extension of serving NYC and BOS.

How much time and money did they pour into LGB or CHM or any other number of non-northeast airports that they couldn’t make work?

If they were flying to London from Seattle or somewhere other than JFK or BOS, I’d give management a bit more credit, but they’ve shown themselves to be less than capable of succeeding outside of the northeast.




Really we are going to bring up CMH? They didn’t try to make a hub there. This is just like talking with Midwestindy, you guys are not going to like anything JetBlue does. You will say they need to get out of the north east to be relevant now here we are with a plan to do it and y’all are like well that won’t work either. Honestly if I was to guess there are a few on here that would probably be happy to just see JetBlue gone.

They are an airline some city’s work some don’t. The huge networks of the big guys come from….wait for it…..mergers. That’s exactly what JetBlue is doing. Same thing as everyone else. Heck it’s the same reason f9 and spirit want to merge.

And yes NYC and BOS you know only the most populated areas on the east coast.


I used to be a JetBlue fan. I might still be if they were useful to me. My essential argument is the planes are better at a combined ULCC than at JetBlue. If B6 buys NK, I think this’ll end up a lot line Reno Air at AA, PSA at US, and like VX at AS. In the end B6 will get more planes, but ultimately end up chucking most of the NK network.

My essential question is, if B6 wanted to grow, why didn’t they go and do it, buy the planes and hire the crews over a period of fiveish years? Why did the numbers not pan out then, but they do pan out with this asset and crew purchase?

(For the record, I live near SEA and I’m an AS fan, however I think they’ve done a mediocre job with the VX network.)
 
Vicenza
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:06 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


Why are you repeatedly making the same comments, and implying you are speaking for every FA and which we all know to be complete nonsense. Are you promoting this because it is your own way of working perhaps?
 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:11 pm

USAirKid wrote:
fastmover wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

Mint and flying to London essentially is just an extension of serving NYC and BOS.

How much time and money did they pour into LGB or CHM or any other number of non-northeast airports that they couldn’t make work?

If they were flying to London from Seattle or somewhere other than JFK or BOS, I’d give management a bit more credit, but they’ve shown themselves to be less than capable of succeeding outside of the northeast.




Really we are going to bring up CMH? They didn’t try to make a hub there. This is just like talking with Midwestindy, you guys are not going to like anything JetBlue does. You will say they need to get out of the north east to be relevant now here we are with a plan to do it and y’all are like well that won’t work either. Honestly if I was to guess there are a few on here that would probably be happy to just see JetBlue gone.

They are an airline some city’s work some don’t. The huge networks of the big guys come from….wait for it…..mergers. That’s exactly what JetBlue is doing. Same thing as everyone else. Heck it’s the same reason f9 and spirit want to merge.

And yes NYC and BOS you know only the most populated areas on the east coast.


I used to be a JetBlue fan. I might still be if they were useful to me. My essential argument is the planes are better at a combined ULCC than at JetBlue. If B6 buys NK, I think this’ll end up a lot line Reno Air at AA, PSA at US, and like VX at AS. In the end B6 will get more planes, but ultimately end up chucking most of the NK network.

My essential question is, if B6 wanted to grow, why didn’t they go and do it, buy the planes and hire the crews over a period of fiveish years? Why did the numbers not pan out then, but they do pan out with this asset and crew purchase?

(For the record, I live near SEA and I’m an AS fan, however I think they’ve done a mediocre job with the VX network.)



I think that is plan B. But why go with plan B when you can buy a competitor and hold back the growth of another and grow?

They have grown but not in the area everyone wants. You are totally correct jblu is not relevant in Seattle just like ALK isn’t relative on the east coast. I doubt JetBlue will ever be relevant in Seattle but the spirit deal will help in other places.
 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:12 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Maybe Spirit's plan is to delay until rising interest rates make this deal untenable. And why B6 is in a hurry.
Rumor is the FED's may raise rates .75% next meeting. Some believe rates will go up 2.5 % in total this year since the buyout was announced. This would increase the cost of funding this merger by $75 million in the first year.

I imagine that a company with a non-investment grade bond rating may see the rates going up even more.



Or the easy answer they didn’t have the votes for F9 hence the delay.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:15 pm

USAirKid wrote:
fastmover wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

Mint and flying to London essentially is just an extension of serving NYC and BOS.

How much time and money did they pour into LGB or CHM or any other number of non-northeast airports that they couldn’t make work?

If they were flying to London from Seattle or somewhere other than JFK or BOS, I’d give management a bit more credit, but they’ve shown themselves to be less than capable of succeeding outside of the northeast.




Really we are going to bring up CMH? They didn’t try to make a hub there. This is just like talking with Midwestindy, you guys are not going to like anything JetBlue does. You will say they need to get out of the north east to be relevant now here we are with a plan to do it and y’all are like well that won’t work either. Honestly if I was to guess there are a few on here that would probably be happy to just see JetBlue gone.

They are an airline some city’s work some don’t. The huge networks of the big guys come from….wait for it…..mergers. That’s exactly what JetBlue is doing. Same thing as everyone else. Hgyteck it’s the same reason f9 and spirit want to merge.

And yes NYC and BOS you know only the most populated areas on the east coast.


I used to be a JetBlue fan. I might still be if they were useful to me. My essential argument is the planes are better at a combined ULCC than at JetBlue. If B6 buys NK, I think this’ll end up a lot line Reno Air at AA, PSA at US, and like VX at AS. In the end B6 will get more planes, but ultimately end up chucking most of the NK network.

My essential question is, if B6 wanted to grow, why didn’t they go and do it, buy the planes and hire the crews over a period of fiveish years? Why did the numbers not pan out then, but they do pan out with this asset and crew purchase?

(For the record, I live near SEA and I’m an AS fan, however I think they’ve done a mediocre job with the VX network.)


I think what you are seeing is that with a dwindling number of merger candidates left for the smaller players, acquisitions have been more of an opportunistic "if I don't get it first, the other smaller guy will" rather than it being truly strategic in nature. AKL didn't want A320s.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Maybe Spirit's plan is to delay until rising interest rates make this deal untenable. And why B6 is in a hurry.
Rumor is the FED's may raise rates .75% next meeting. Some believe rates will go up 2.5 % in total this year since the buyout was announced. This would increase the cost of funding this merger by $75 million in the first year.

I imagine that a company with a non-investment grade bond rating may see the rates going up even more.

NK will have to either:
1) suck it up and hand it to B6
2) make out the B6 deal will not be good for employees and negotiate hard for them to save face in alledged lack of fiduciary duty
3) convince F9 to come back and save the day
 
CDGIAD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:21 pm

USAirKid wrote:
CDGIAD wrote:
When can we expect to have a final result/answer regarding the vote on the hostile offer by jetBlue and the potential evolution to the first merger scenario Spirit+Frontier ?


I don’t think this has a predefined schedule. Sure there is a shareholder meeting scheduled in 20 some days, but it looks like JetBlue is meeting with Spirit, and undoubtedly Spirit continues to meet with Frontier. So something will happen, but it’s not as if there is a checklist for how this proceeds.

FWIW, one of Spirit’s filings had a day by day account of the merger negotiations, and they happened over months. So it might take some time.


Yeah but in a takeover process, if a vote has to be organized, the date is public, and if a tender offer on Spirit's shares is launched by JetBlue ìt would have a deadline.
I'm surprised there's public discussions between the parties (not just here on a.net) but no public calendar.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:50 pm

11C wrote:
Just to switch gears from the FA topic, does anyone find it interesting that the daily press release from Jetblue has gone silent? Pure speculation, as is virtually everything posted above, but it suggests to me that maybe there is some actual engagement between the parties. Where it all leads, who knows, but my guess is that there could be actual discussions happening, which would require public disclosures to cease.


Like an end to a horror film that has yet to be fully ended until that last scare!

....F9 limps into the woods, wounded. NK and B6 wearily traverse through the thickening underbrush, negotiating every step. A deafening silence emerges. Then a rustling pierces the immediate space. NK and B6 (hand-in-hand) slowwwly turn, hardly containing their fear. But nothing. No visual. And now, no sound. Re-negotiating the path before them they continue, reluctantly. No sooner do they both realize something quite dreadful. They failed to look up into the trees! And there, in all its glorious revenge, spread eagle upon the branches directly above, still but stalwart, F9 at the verge of committing its lethal, final move, the image blacks out and credits emerge.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1916
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:24 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
11C wrote:
Just to switch gears from the FA topic, does anyone find it interesting that the daily press release from Jetblue has gone silent? Pure speculation, as is virtually everything posted above, but it suggests to me that maybe there is some actual engagement between the parties. Where it all leads, who knows, but my guess is that there could be actual discussions happening, which would require public disclosures to cease.


Like an end to a horror film that has yet to be fully ended until that last scare!

....F9 limps into the woods, wounded. NK and B6 wearily traverse through the thickening underbrush, negotiating every step. A deafening silence emerges. Then a rustling pierces the immediate space. NK and B6 (hand-in-hand) slowwwly turn, hardly containing their fear. But nothing. No visual. And now, no sound. Re-negotiating the path before them they continue, reluctantly. No sooner do they both realize something quite dreadful. They failed to look up into the trees! And there, in all its glorious revenge, spread eagle upon the branches directly above, still but stalwart, F9 at the verge of committing its lethal, final move, the image blacks out and credits emerge.


Well played.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:58 pm

JFKalumni wrote:


Thanks for posting! I know my way around flight attendant contracts pretty well and I’d say that considering this is only maybe their second contract that it’s pretty damn good!
 
trueblew
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


It is easy for JetBlue to commit to zero layoffs. Your job has now moved locations; your position has been eliminated but we can now offer you this (lower-paying) position; etc etc etc. There are myriad ways to lay off office staff without technically laying them off. JetBlue are particularly skilled at doing things they say they aren't doing (or vice versa).
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:54 pm

CDGIAD wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
CDGIAD wrote:
When can we expect to have a final result/answer regarding the vote on the hostile offer by jetBlue and the potential evolution to the first merger scenario Spirit+Frontier ?


I don’t think this has a predefined schedule. Sure there is a shareholder meeting scheduled in 20 some days, but it looks like JetBlue is meeting with Spirit, and undoubtedly Spirit continues to meet with Frontier. So something will happen, but it’s not as if there is a checklist for how this proceeds.

FWIW, one of Spirit’s filings had a day by day account of the merger negotiations, and they happened over months. So it might take some time.


Yeah but in a takeover process, if a vote has to be organized, the date is public, and if a tender offer on Spirit's shares is launched by JetBlue ìt would have a deadline.
I'm surprised there's public discussions between the parties (not just here on a.net) but no public calendar.


There aren’t public discussions between the parties. There are private discussions. Once an agreement is signed, or the parties stop talking privately, we’ll likely know more. It wasn’t public that F9 and NK were talking before the merger announcement. Plus I’m sure there are merger discussions at companies that never become public.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1798
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:56 pm

USAirKid wrote:
CDGIAD wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

I don’t think this has a predefined schedule. Sure there is a shareholder meeting scheduled in 20 some days, but it looks like JetBlue is meeting with Spirit, and undoubtedly Spirit continues to meet with Frontier. So something will happen, but it’s not as if there is a checklist for how this proceeds.

FWIW, one of Spirit’s filings had a day by day account of the merger negotiations, and they happened over months. So it might take some time.


Yeah but in a takeover process, if a vote has to be organized, the date is public, and if a tender offer on Spirit's shares is launched by JetBlue ìt would have a deadline.
I'm surprised there's public discussions between the parties (not just here on a.net) but no public calendar.


There aren’t public discussions between the parties. There are private discussions. Once an agreement is signed, or the parties stop talking privately, we’ll likely know more. It wasn’t public that F9 and NK were talking before the merger announcement. Plus I’m sure there are merger discussions at companies that never become public.



As someone who has done his fair share of M&A, I’d say that most discussions don’t ever become public.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:30 pm

tlecam wrote:
As someone who has done his fair share of M&A, I’d say that most discussions don’t ever become public.


Just like how every jump seat or flight deck rumor is treated like actual fact…regardless of their knowing little to nothing about what’s actually going on in the ivory tower.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:13 pm

trueblew wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


It is easy for JetBlue to commit to zero layoffs. Your job has now moved locations; your position has been eliminated but we can now offer you this (lower-paying) position; etc etc etc. There are myriad ways to lay off office staff without technically laying them off. JetBlue are particularly skilled at doing things they say they aren't doing (or vice versa).


Southwest did the same thing with the ramp at AirTran in ATL at least.
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2809
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:25 pm

trueblew wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


It is easy for JetBlue to commit to zero layoffs. Your job has now moved locations; your position has been eliminated but we can now offer you this (lower-paying) position; etc etc etc. There are myriad ways to lay off office staff without technically laying them off. JetBlue are particularly skilled at doing things they say they aren't doing (or vice versa).


I’ve seen all of the above done. What they committed to was not sending out Warn notices and particularly focused on the cabin crew as places they would not lay people off. Most folks in back office positions myself included can tell you just like trueblew, it can be done and a commitment now doesn’t mean crap in an at will state for employment.
I’m a big B6 fan don’t get me wrong, but committing to not reducing duplicate operations in a merger is financial suicide and while those duplications will last a little while, ways will be found to remove them.
I’ve gone through this exact logic in the industry I’m in over the last 15 years. At one point after a couple of mergers of our own we had over 15 sales people per customer. Now we have 3-4 We’ve outsourced a ton of stuff and 2020 saw us go through a reduction of over 20% across the board. So forgive me if I don’t believe that rhetoric for a minute, because i simply don’t and why I believe the synergies are already figured out. It may not be in cabin crew and pilots, but it will be there.
 
StinkyPinky
Posts: 116
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Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:14 am

trueblew wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


It is easy for JetBlue to commit to zero layoffs. Your job has now moved locations; your position has been eliminated but we can now offer you this (lower-paying) position; etc etc etc. There are myriad ways to lay off office staff without technically laying them off. JetBlue are particularly skilled at doing things they say they aren't doing (or vice versa).


Exactly. It's all PR spin. What is the alternative to furloughs if you're not offering extended leaves or time off? It's separation with 6 weeks pay. Ask all the JBs employees at the smaller outstations and at HQ how the "no furlough policy" worked for them during covid. If you didn't relocate with minimal notice, you were out of a job. It was strategic, because even with today's hiring or staffing shortage, new hires are still cheaper than recalling furloughed employees with seniority.
 
jplatts
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Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:37 am

USAirKid wrote:
I used to be a JetBlue fan. I might still be if they were useful to me. My essential argument is the planes are better at a combined ULCC than at JetBlue. If B6 buys NK, I think this’ll end up a lot line Reno Air at AA, PSA at US, and like VX at AS. In the end B6 will get more planes, but ultimately end up chucking most of the NK network.

My essential question is, if B6 wanted to grow, why didn’t they go and do it, buy the planes and hire the crews over a period of fiveish years? Why did the numbers not pan out then, but they do pan out with this asset and crew purchase?

(For the record, I live near SEA and I’m an AS fan, however I think they’ve done a mediocre job with the VX network.)


AS had added nonstop service out of SFO after the AS-VX merger to a few destinations in the Northwest that were never served by VX such as BOI, BZN, MSO, RDM, and GEG. AS has FF bases and point-of-sale in the BOI/BZN/MSO/RDM/GEG markets to support AS SFO-BOI/BZN/MSO/RDM/GEG nonstop service.

Even though US had dismantled the former PS network in the Western U.S., US would regain a presence in the Western U.S. through the US-HP merger (including the former HP PHX hub that is still a hub for AA). In addition to the expanded presence that US would acquire in the Western U.S. through the US-HP merger, US was also a codeshare partner of UA (who had Western U.S. hubs at DEN/LAX/SFO) after US joined Star Alliance in 2004 but prior to the AA-US merger.

While most of the former QQ network was dismantled by AA, a few of the destinations that QQ previously served nonstop from LAX such as ABQ, SJC, and TUS currently have AA nonstop service out of LAX.
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1798
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Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:50 am

hiflyeras wrote:
tlecam wrote:
As someone who has done his fair share of M&A, I’d say that most discussions don’t ever become public.


Just like how every jump seat or flight deck rumor is treated like actual fact…regardless of their knowing little to nothing about what’s actually going on in the ivory tower.


I didn’t claim to know what’s going on? I made a general observation based on my experience.
 
F9Animal
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Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:41 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


Okay... If B6 wins this... Those FA's that don't want to do 2 services and clean the plane are free to move on to another airline. I am sure there are Spirit flight attendants that would be happy to do the job B6 does. The way I am reading these posts is that there are some who think Spirit flight attendants are lazy, which I argue isn't true. To put them all in that lazy list isn't fair IMO.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 786
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Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:43 am

F9Animal wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I will jump in on the Flight Attendants lazy and don't want to work comments. How far from true that could be. I don't care if you work for Spirit or not, but to call them lazy is a low blow. I do know a few Spirit Flight Attendants that bust their buns, and would take that as an insult.

Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


Okay... If B6 wins this... Those FA's that don't want to do 2 services and clean the plane are free to move on to another airline. I am sure there are Spirit flight attendants that would be happy to do the job B6 does. The way I am reading these posts is that there are some who think Spirit flight attendants are lazy, which I argue isn't true. To put them all in that lazy list isn't fair IMO.

Who has claimed they are all lazy?
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:18 am

SoCalFlyer wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
Ask them how they would like to serve 2 services to every passenger, pick up the associated trash, and clean the plane after it lands on top of what they currently do. I’m sure they’d be thrilled. None of the ones I know and have talked to seem to be too happy about those prospects. I wouldn’t be either.


How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.


Just to chime in, the SPIRIT CBA is 100% not superior to Jetblue. The only thing they have that may be superior is the ability to drop to zero, and they have a flat duty day of 16hrs. That's it. Have you read the 2 CBAs side by side? I think you should. They have no reschedule pay language, no language regarding long stay hotel, They(SPIRIT) have what's called a red-eye +1 which means they can operate a leg after a red-eye. The list keeps going. They get paid something like $50 flat rate for holiday pay, whereas JetBlue FAs get paid double pay for every hour worked on a holiday.


Except B6 doesn’t honor the work rules in the CBA with their flight attendant group… repeatedly.
 
fastmover
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:25 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:

How many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over….. Trash. 2 services….. Wow. Old material.

Spirit FA's care about the real stuff like their ability to drop to zero. They care about contractual min reserve coverage for the ability to drop and swap. They care about having separate sick and vacation banks. They care about their work rules. They understand and place a priority on better quality of life outside of work versus what you need to do for 1-6 hours while on the airplane. Right now the Spirit FA CBA is superior to what Jetblue can offer FA's. Once the Jetblue FA's educate themselves on the Spirit FA CBA they'll be demanding nothing less. Same goes for the pilots.


Just to chime in, the SPIRIT CBA is 100% not superior to Jetblue. The only thing they have that may be superior is the ability to drop to zero, and they have a flat duty day of 16hrs. That's it. Have you read the 2 CBAs side by side? I think you should. They have no reschedule pay language, no language regarding long stay hotel, They(SPIRIT) have what's called a red-eye +1 which means they can operate a leg after a red-eye. The list keeps going. They get paid something like $50 flat rate for holiday pay, whereas JetBlue FAs get paid double pay for every hour worked on a holiday.


Except B6 doesn’t honor the work rules in the CBA with their flight attendant group… repeatedly.



Or pilots but welcome to the world of unions and management (as you know)
 
Brianpr3
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:14 am

Since it seems likely they will get spirit lets talk fleet
Im sure they will get rid of the 319
How far is backlog on 319neo? Could they convert order to 223
Im sure they will keep 21n on order book and how far is backlog and where is spirit's slots for the 319n and 21n
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:17 am

VS4ever wrote:
trueblew wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

B6 committed to zero layoffs, so those synergies won't work. Not sure on the scale of any of the other potential synergies, but I know NK is incredibly lean already.


It is easy for JetBlue to commit to zero layoffs. Your job has now moved locations; your position has been eliminated but we can now offer you this (lower-paying) position; etc etc etc. There are myriad ways to lay off office staff without technically laying them off. JetBlue are particularly skilled at doing things they say they aren't doing (or vice versa).


I’ve seen all of the above done. What they committed to was not sending out Warn notices and particularly focused on the cabin crew as places they would not lay people off. Most folks in back office positions myself included can tell you just like trueblew, it can be done and a commitment now doesn’t mean crap in an at will state for employment.
I’m a big B6 fan don’t get me wrong, but committing to not reducing duplicate operations in a merger is financial suicide and while those duplications will last a little while, ways will be found to remove them.
I’ve gone through this exact logic in the industry I’m in over the last 15 years. At one point after a couple of mergers of our own we had over 15 sales people per customer. Now we have 3-4 We’ve outsourced a ton of stuff and 2020 saw us go through a reduction of over 20% across the board. So forgive me if I don’t believe that rhetoric for a minute, because i simply don’t and why I believe the synergies are already figured out. It may not be in cabin crew and pilots, but it will be there.


Even if we are to assume B6 does layoff some of NK's back office staff, your point was that it would provide "significant" cost savings:
VS4ever wrote:
B6 will still gain significantly from synergies by wiping out a lot of the back office staff, which invariably happens, merging systems, offices etc, can save a ton of money pretty fast.


I disagree:

1) NK is a ULCC, by nature their back office headcount is lower(on a relative basis) than your average carrier. Headcount was already further shrunk during COVID. So any further "cost cutting" initiatives involving laying off, removing positions, e.t.c. would be much smaller than a typical merger.....I'll come back to this later.

2) NK has only 800 employees in "administrative roles" (8% of its total workforce), even if we assume B6 was to cut 20% of that staff (I'd say 20% is aggressive in this scenario). At an average salary of $70,000/year, that's only a savings of ~$10M/year, which equates to <1% of NK's current labor expense.
https://s24.q4cdn.com/507316502/files/d ... d14686.pdf

2a) Don't forget this combined airline is adding 200 airplanes in under 5 years, there is only so much you can cut even from back-office redundancies, given you'll need more staff in so many different postitions to accommodate this growth.

3) The most extreme recent example one might point to is the VX+AS merger. Post-merger AS cut ~300 "admin" staff from VX, but at the time of the merger VX was incredibly bloated with admin roles making up nearly 20% of VX's workforce. You would not see a similar mgmt workforce reduction, because NK's mgmt headcount is already a tiny % of its overall employee base, and the growth rate is much higher
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2809
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: JetBlue Makes Hostile Takeover Offer for Spirit

Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:07 am

Ah yes, but you are focusing just on the specific people costs and frankly the type of roles that would be eliminated are likely to be way over 70k per year in this market, and even while that per your calculations may not be huge, there are other related costs that add up too. System contracts, office space requirements even in this post Covid world. Even if that’s only 30-40m tops, based on B6’s prior cost saving goals, (300m a year from memory), that’s still pretty significant. While it may not be 500m plus, as i said it certainly adds up and in back office world adding 100 planes doesn’t necessarily equate to adding back a ton of people, at least certainly at the higher paying roles because it’s far from a linear relationship.
I see it as significant, you do not, we shall agree to disagree on this one

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