ChrisPBacon wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

B6 can very easily operate NK as a ULCC subsidiary (if the economy proves tough in the short-term), which would also allow it to strike at Frontier at its own game, if necessary, then just gradually fold it/retro-fit into B6 as appropriate markets get introduced as "New" jetBlue service.

No they cannot. This has been addressed multiple times here. The B6 pilot labor agreement alone won't allow anything but one brand, one senioirity list.

fastmover wrote:

Correct. I wish people would remember this. To lose the merger they must have to joint contract between the pilots. Also JetBlue can’t operate a subsidiary airline again the pilot contract won’t allow it

fastmover wrote:

tlecam wrote:

fastmover wrote:

But you think the JetBlue CEO and board are crazy enough to risk everything? I know you and I disagree but you don’t work at JetBlue.

I’m not a huge fan of management and some of the stuff they pull but I would bet my life they know exactly what they are doing and what they want from it. Obviously they have lined up financing so they were able to sell big banks on it as well.

We will see how it turns out but I do know everytime people say JetBlue can’t do this or that, they tend to defy the odds.

Maybe you will be right but I don’t think so.

Because B6 is lining up financing isn’t an indication of anything positive or negative about how the banks feel about the deal. The banks will evaluate the deal, its risks and will put forth terms and conditions that it’s comfortable with.

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

B6 can very easily operate NK as a ULCC subsidiary (if the economy proves tough in the short-term), which would also allow it to strike at Frontier at its own game, if necessary, then just gradually fold it/retro-fit into B6 as appropriate markets get introduced as "New" jetBlue service.

No they can not "very easily" do that. The labor side alone would be a dumpster fire waiting to happen.....

Yes, some of the NK fleet will need to continue operating as NK, until the reconfiguration is complete (as with other mergers), but B6 has made it clear they do not want to operate NK as a subsidiary.

fastmover wrote:

But you think the JetBlue CEO and board are crazy enough to risk everything? I know you and I disagree but you don’t work at JetBlue.

I’m not a huge fan of management and some of the stuff they pull but I would bet my life they know exactly what they are doing and what they want from it. Obviously they have lined up financing so they were able to sell big banks on it as well.

We will see how it turns out but I do know everytime people say JetBlue can’t do this or that, they tend to defy the odds.

Maybe you will be right but I don’t think so.

What has B6 done in recent years that has "defied the odds?" As touched on earlier they've tried to pull off multiple expansion efforts in places outside of the Northeast and Florida and they have all largely failed.

Also, that's not how financing works.

We have no idea the terms the banks have offered B6 for these loans, which would determine how risky they believe the project is. Banks providing financing does not mean what it sounds like you think it means. For example, very distressed companies receive financing all the time(Not saying B6 is at all a very distressed company), but at very unfavorable terms.

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

santi319 wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Correct. I wish people would remember this. To lose the merger they must have to joint contract between the pilots. Also JetBlue can’t operate a subsidiary airline again the pilot contract won’t allow it

Actually both pilots and FA have the same clause, a joint contract must be made within 6 months of a merger or acquisition.

santi319 wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Correct. I wish people would remember this. To lose the merger they must have to joint contract between the pilots. Also JetBlue can’t operate a subsidiary airline again the pilot contract won’t allow it

Actually both pilots and FA have the same clause, a joint contract must be made within 6 months of a merger or acquisition.

ChrisPBacon wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

B6 can very easily operate NK as a ULCC subsidiary (if the economy proves tough in the short-term), which would also allow it to strike at Frontier at its own game, if necessary, then just gradually fold it/retro-fit into B6 as appropriate markets get introduced as "New" jetBlue service.

No they cannot. This has been addressed multiple times here. The B6 pilot labor agreement alone won't allow anything but one brand, one senioirity list.

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

tlecam wrote:

Because B6 is lining up financing isn’t an indication of anything positive or negative about how the banks feel about the deal. The banks will evaluate the deal, its risks and will put forth terms and conditions that it’s comfortable with.

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

No they can not "very easily" do that. The labor side alone would be a dumpster fire waiting to happen.....

Yes, some of the NK fleet will need to continue operating as NK, until the reconfiguration is complete (as with other mergers), but B6 has made it clear they do not want to operate NK as a subsidiary.



What has B6 done in recent years that has "defied the odds?" As touched on earlier they've tried to pull off multiple expansion efforts in places outside of the Northeast and Florida and they have all largely failed.

Also, that's not how financing works.

We have no idea the terms the banks have offered B6 for these loans, which would determine how risky they believe the project is. Banks providing financing does not mean what it sounds like you think it means. For example, very distressed companies receive financing all the time(Not saying B6 is at all a very distressed company), but at very unfavorable terms.

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

B6FLL954 wrote:

All the more reason smaller carriers like B6 should be allowed to merge. The Big 3 + WN have a dominant position in the US aviation market and nearly unlimited resources to compete. Delta for instance, with nearly 900 airplanes has put an all out blitz on BOS and SEA without even breaking a sweat. DL and UA dominate the New York market, but an AA/B6 regional partnership is the problem?

B6FLL954 wrote:

A JetBlue/Spirit combination creates a broader network, allowing B6 to better compete and play some offense finally with an expanded fleet. Not overpaying for VX was understandable, but it would be a mistake for B6 to sit this one out! This is finally one situation where I agree with Robin and the ELT.

TYWoolman wrote:

HunterATL wrote:

tphuang wrote:

i've discussed this subject with someone quite extensively actually. It's hard to imagine NK being this politically connected to get a DOJ lawsuit against NEA. The only logical conclusion is that DL/UA (especially DL) has been pushing hard on disband NEA narrative in their conversation with politicians.

I still think it doesn't make sense for them to give up NEA in a merger with NK. However, if that means they don't give up any assets outside of a few gates at FLL, I could see a situation where this would work out.

That is not a logical conclusion; it's an evidence-free conspiracy theory and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the historical animosity between DOT and DOJ's antitrust division regarding airline JVs. For more than 2 decades, the antitrust division at DOJ has publicly stated on multiple occasions that DOT does not engage in a proper analysis when evaluating foreign JVs before grating antitrust immunity. Although DOT cannot grant antitrust immunity to domestic JVs, it must approve them before they can take effect. DOJ, under Trump, was livid that Chao granted approval to the NEA (then immediately resigned) before DOJ could review it for compliance with the antitrust laws. Even in the waning days of the Trump administration, DOJ began reviewing the NEA, and the staff quickly began preparing litigation even before the new political appointees could be confirmed. Heaven forbid DOJ reach its own conclusion that this is anticompetitive and violates the antitrust laws. This notion that the staff in the antitrust division could not reach their own independent decision without some unidentified political or economic pressure is simply preposterous and maligns their integrity, especially in light of DOJ's position for more than 2 decades that DOT gets antitrust wrong.

Also, I would love to know how the conspiracy theory goes regarding how DL or anybody else got the attorneys general in Arizona, California, Florida, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and DC (a combination of both Republicans and Democrats) to all join and sue AA and B6. B6 and AA are major employers in FL (they employ significantly more than DL), but FL sued. AA is a major employer in AZ, CA, PA, and DC (AA employees more than DL is all states but CA), but they all sued. B6 is a major employer in MA (B6 employs more than DL), but MA sued. Are you seriously contending that DL, NK, or anybody else convinced all these different states with different political views to sue? And do you really think that the antitrust divisions in all of these states are essentially for sale to the highest bidder and bring actions only because some competitor convinces them?

At its core, this conspiracy theory maligns the integrity and the intelligence of the civil and political staff at DOJ's antitrust division and those of the participating states. Some might disagree with their decision to sue, but to claim, without evidence, that this was motivated by AA's and B6's competitors is ridiculous.

Well put. I will also add imo I find it rather surprising that through the pandemic and the pandemic aftermath Delta and United have had to put up with the illegality of competing against this. Rhetorically, I wonder if they will have any basis to sue the DOT based on a DOJ outcome that finds NEA anticompetitive to the extent of seeking remedies/damages themselves!

B6FLL954 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.

fastmover wrote:

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

All the more reason smaller carriers like B6 should be allowed to merge. The Big 3 + WN have a dominant position in the US aviation market and nearly unlimited resources to compete. Delta for instance, with nearly 900 airplanes has put an all out blitz on BOS and SEA without even breaking a sweat. DL and UA dominate the New York market, but an AA/B6 regional partnership is the problem?

A JetBlue/Spirit combination creates a broader network, allowing B6 to better compete and play some offense finally with an expanded fleet. Not overpaying for VX was understandable, but it would be a mistake for B6 to sit this one out! This is finally one situation where I agree with Robin and the ELT.

tlecam wrote:

B6FLL954 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.



I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

All the more reason smaller carriers like B6 should be allowed to merge. The Big 3 + WN have a dominant position in the US aviation market and nearly unlimited resources to compete. Delta for instance, with nearly 900 airplanes has put an all out blitz on BOS and SEA without even breaking a sweat. DL and UA dominate the New York market, but an AA/B6 regional partnership is the problem?

A JetBlue/Spirit combination creates a broader network, allowing B6 to better compete and play some offense finally with an expanded fleet. Not overpaying for VX was understandable, but it would be a mistake for B6 to sit this one out! This is finally one situation where I agree with Robin and the ELT.

I don’t have an issue with the B6/NK acquisition nor do I have a conceptual issue with the NEA. However, the competitive landscape in BOS and NYC prior to the NEA was hardly that DL was running a mini-ATL out of BOS and that DL and UA owned the NYC market while AA and B6 were after-thoughts.

In BOS, DL just (and barely) took the market share lead from B6 with it’s recent expansion. B6 and DL were of comparable size and AA was not far behind them in terms of marketshare. Combined, B6 and AA are quite a bit larger, have more gates, seats and flights by a comfortable margin.

The same is true to a lessor extent in NYC. While AA’s ops at JFK are a shadow of their former selves, they still have a very robust operation at LGA and B6 has a huge hub at JFK.

In BOS in particular, I wonder whether the NEA is really in the best interests of consumers.

tphuang wrote:

tlecam wrote:

B6FLL954 wrote:

All the more reason smaller carriers like B6 should be allowed to merge. The Big 3 + WN have a dominant position in the US aviation market and nearly unlimited resources to compete. Delta for instance, with nearly 900 airplanes has put an all out blitz on BOS and SEA without even breaking a sweat. DL and UA dominate the New York market, but an AA/B6 regional partnership is the problem?

A JetBlue/Spirit combination creates a broader network, allowing B6 to better compete and play some offense finally with an expanded fleet. Not overpaying for VX was understandable, but it would be a mistake for B6 to sit this one out! This is finally one situation where I agree with Robin and the ELT.

I don’t have an issue with the B6/NK acquisition nor do I have a conceptual issue with the NEA. However, the competitive landscape in BOS and NYC prior to the NEA was hardly that DL was running a mini-ATL out of BOS and that DL and UA owned the NYC market while AA and B6 were after-thoughts.

In BOS, DL just (and barely) took the market share lead from B6 with it’s recent expansion. B6 and DL were of comparable size and AA was not far behind them in terms of marketshare. Combined, B6 and AA are quite a bit larger, have more gates, seats and flights by a comfortable margin.

The same is true to a lessor extent in NYC. While AA’s ops at JFK are a shadow of their former selves, they still have a very robust operation at LGA and B6 has a huge hub at JFK.

In BOS in particular, I wonder whether the NEA is really in the best interests of consumers.

I think DL did NEA a great favor with its recent BOS expansion. It actually allows B6/AA to make the case that they are not overly dominant in BOS. I heard through the grapevine that B6 execs were very happy about what happened. If NK merger closes, I think you will see them at full expansion mode at BOS.

Imo, the only possible anti-competitive part of NEA was the 55 to 60% local market share (by revenue) of combined B6/AA presence at BOS. I think we may not be able to fully judge this for a few years.

The other parts of NEA, like putting a competitor to UA/DL in NYC and having a viable competitor to UA at EWR, are all good things for NY area travelers imo. I live in NJ and end up having to fly *A pretty much every time, because there is no real alternative to UA at EWR right now. And having a more competitive AA TATL hub in JFK and B6 TATL hub in BOS are generally going to make TATL travel more competitive in the future.

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

tlecam wrote:

Because B6 is lining up financing isn’t an indication of anything positive or negative about how the banks feel about the deal. The banks will evaluate the deal, its risks and will put forth terms and conditions that it’s comfortable with.

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

No they can not "very easily" do that. The labor side alone would be a dumpster fire waiting to happen.....

Yes, some of the NK fleet will need to continue operating as NK, until the reconfiguration is complete (as with other mergers), but B6 has made it clear they do not want to operate NK as a subsidiary.



What has B6 done in recent years that has "defied the odds?" As touched on earlier they've tried to pull off multiple expansion efforts in places outside of the Northeast and Florida and they have all largely failed.

Also, that's not how financing works.

We have no idea the terms the banks have offered B6 for these loans, which would determine how risky they believe the project is. Banks providing financing does not mean what it sounds like you think it means. For example, very distressed companies receive financing all the time(Not saying B6 is at all a very distressed company), but at very unfavorable terms.

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

USAirKid wrote:

ChrisPBacon wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

B6 can very easily operate NK as a ULCC subsidiary (if the economy proves tough in the short-term), which would also allow it to strike at Frontier at its own game, if necessary, then just gradually fold it/retro-fit into B6 as appropriate markets get introduced as "New" jetBlue service.

No they cannot. This has been addressed multiple times here. The B6 pilot labor agreement alone won't allow anything but one brand, one senioirity list.

I believe the contract language was posted earlier, and while it requires one seniority list and one contract, it doesn't say anything about multiple brands. (We go bogged down if an "alter ego" is a brand, but I'd argue an "alter ego" is a completely separate puppet airline controlled by a different airline.)

If/when this merger happens I expect the Spirit brand to be operated by JetBlue for 12-24 months. The onboard products are different enough that it behooves them to have a Southwest/Airtran style merger. (Southwest operated Airtran as its own carrier because the products were so different. They moved 3 or 4 737s a month into the WN operation, while moving the 717s to DL, properly adjusting the schedules as airplanes moved between brands.)

If JetBlue doesn't execute the merger in this way, they're going to make people expecting the JetBlue product very unhappy, the folks expecting the Spirit product pleasantly surprised, and confirm that management is not competent to run the place. Recall the complaints that happened a while ago when ad to take E190s out of service for maintenance, to keep the flights they were instead operated by another operator's house E145s. People howled that they didn't get the JetBlue product, and that was only a few lines of flying, not the whole operation.

TYWoolman wrote:

strfyr51 wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

Well put. I will also add imo I find it rather surprising that through the pandemic and the pandemic aftermath Delta and United have had to put up with the illegality of competing against this. Rhetorically, I wonder if they will have any basis to sue the DOT based on a DOJ outcome that finds NEA anticompetitive to the extent of seeking remedies/damages themselves!

the real Question might BE? Seeing that Logan can't just get any Larger? There is no remedy for United nor Delta to get anything Past the breakup of the NEA itself.
with the logic of? Since we can't do it also? then AA needs to fly their OWN damn flights like UA and DL have to. Other than that? It was actually a darn good Idea for what they get out of it.

NEA is a great idea, but I think it is flawed at the core as an "alliance" when it clearly has merger benefits. Basically the DOJ will have to decide/pick market-place winners by agreeing whether a legacy carrier (AA) can harness the lower costs of its competitor (B6) to thrust overnight into a enormous amount of routes at the detriment of incumbent carriers in the market. jetBlue may be able to operate there with fares at a certain level, but Delta and the excellent service it provides NYC may not be able to for the long-term. People say B6 has an ally in Schumer, but I highly doubt Schumer has any detailed knowledge of how airlines got to the point they got and what it takes to have a level-playing field as independent players in the highly contested waters of NYC. JetBlue certainly brings a good competitive dynamic to NY. But Delta has been NY's hometown airline long before jetBlue.

fastmover wrote:

It’s either they know it will work or they are all crazy and are risking the future of JetBlue here. I don’t think they are that dumb (again for the record I’m not even a fan of the ELT)

santi319 wrote:

B6FLL954 wrote:

A JetBlue/Spirit combination creates a broader network, allowing B6 to better compete and play some offense finally with an expanded fleet. Not overpaying for VX was understandable, but it would be a mistake for B6 to sit this one out! This is finally one situation where I agree with Robin and the ELT.

This!

And also most do not understand how dangerous Indigo Partners is for labor relationships in aviation. If they were to become the 5th largest airline, airline workers in the US can start to say goodbye to livable wages and basic rights and benefits (most of their airlines’ catalogue do not even have flight benefits for their own workers including cabin crew).

If Indigo wins this one, the US aviation panorama for workers takes a huge step back, and slowly becomes that of Europe, where longevity and benefits take a second step.

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner.

TYWoolman wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner.

Wondering what the significance happens to be to bring up the fact that PHL "happens to be the hub of our NEA partner." (?) I can only wonder if B6 going forward shrinks or doesn't initiate service altogether in AA strongholds. I am not saying that you are supporting this position per se -maybe I don't have the true context of the other poster - but that kind of reference to the NEA is case-in-point on DOJ anti-competitive concerns that B6 will not be incentivized to compete with AA in markets outside Boston and NYC. Any AA market outside Boston and NYC should be irrelevant to B6 whatsoever as a market of it's "NEA partner." B6 has been touting the NK merger as a means to expand. Let's see if they expand in AA strongholds, the true litmus test. PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

tphuang wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Wondering what the significance happens to be to bring up the fact that PHL "happens to be the hub of our NEA partner." (?) I can only wonder if B6 going forward shrinks or doesn't initiate service altogether in AA strongholds. I am not saying that you are supporting this position per se -maybe I don't have the true context of the other poster - but that kind of reference to the NEA is case-in-point on DOJ anti-competitive concerns that B6 will not be incentivized to compete with AA in markets outside Boston and NYC. Any AA market outside Boston and NYC should be irrelevant to B6 whatsoever as a market of it's "NEA partner." B6 has been touting the NK merger as a means to expand. Let's see if they expand in AA strongholds, the true litmus test. PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

They cannot even staff enough block hours to fly their pre covid Boston and fll schedule. And you want them to expand into aa fortress hubs? That makes no sense.

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.

fastmover wrote:

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

So basically it won’t matter what examples I give you, you will just blow them off.

What I gave you were two examples where many people said that won’t work. London and mint, yet it does.

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner. As for the others every airline will grow or shrink at different places that does not mean much.

But you are actually making my point for me. You are correct JetBlue elt is slow and deliberate they go with what they know and rarely go outside the box. Which is why I keep telling you if they didn’t think this merger would work they would never do it. After David N almost killed the airline with hyper growth we have now in our DNA a very cautious leadership team.

It’s either they know it will work or they are all crazy and are risking the future of JetBlue here. I don’t think they are that dumb (again for the record I’m not even a fan of the ELT)

TYWoolman wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner.

Wondering what the significance happens to be to bring up the fact that PHL "happens to be the hub of our NEA partner." (?) I can only wonder if B6 going forward shrinks or doesn't initiate service altogether in AA strongholds. I am not saying that you are supporting this position per se -maybe I don't have the true context of the other poster - but that kind of reference to the NEA is case-in-point on DOJ anti-competitive concerns that B6 will not be incentivized to compete with AA in markets outside Boston and NYC. Any AA market outside Boston and NYC should be irrelevant to B6 whatsoever as a market of it's "NEA partner." B6 has been touting the NK merger as a means to expand. Let's see if they expand in AA strongholds, the true litmus test. PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

airportugal310 wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

You forgot the failed focus cities at AUS and ORD. And the failed hub at LGB.

I wouldn't call LGB a failed hub. They moved their flying to an arguable more lucrative airport up the freeway (LAX), while leaving behind a toxic relationship at LGB

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Yes and if it was a massive risk or they thought it wouldn’t work I’m sure the terms would not work for the deal.

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.

fastmover wrote:

So you think GS is just going to be like here is a bunch of money good luck? No

Mint and London/slots were two things on here and many “analysts” said no no no yet here we are with a very successful mint product that other airlines had to change to complete with and saved JetBlue transcon. Also JetBlue is now sitting here with permanent at heathrow.

Look it could be a total flop but again respectfully you don’t work at the company and what you actually see here is something that is very frustrating to employees. When JetBlue actually wants to do something they can, but many times they just accept “good enough” which is how we end up in an operational mess. That is a mentality that must change.

I’m am just telling you that after 10 years here the current elt would never ever stick their neck out this far unless they knew it would work. Heck not long ago many on here said JetBlue wouldn’t win this no chance yet here we are.

As for expansion yeah the RDU thing didn’t quite work but most of it was done during covid as an experiment. Currently with the NEA every airplane is spoken for and busy, hence buying spirit they need the planes and the staff to expand.

Like I said we will see but it’s certainly not doomed to failure.

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

So basically it won’t matter what examples I give you, you will just blow them off.

What I gave you were two examples where many people said that won’t work. London and mint, yet it does.

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner. As for the others every airline will grow or shrink at different places that does not mean much.

But you are actually making my point for me. You are correct JetBlue elt is slow and deliberate they go with what they know and rarely go outside the box. Which is why I keep telling you if they didn’t think this merger would work they would never do it. After David N almost killed the airline with hyper growth we have now in our DNA a very cautious leadership team.

It’s either they know it will work or they are all crazy and are risking the future of JetBlue here. I don’t think they are that dumb (again for the record I’m not even a fan of the ELT)

TYWoolman wrote:

PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

phluser wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

DTW is one major market that gets most screwed from a JetBlue-Spirit carrier, over those markets, as Spirit has been the second largest carrier at DTW, and DTW has a lot less Frontier or Southwest. Southwest has been more reluctant to expand at DTW against DL's hub, and Frontier is small and has to build up more, to be ready to backfill. It doesn't serve DTW-MCO daily it appears.

phluser wrote:

NK has served DTW-LGA for many years, and since JetBlue has announced it will give up LGA slots held by NK, that nulls out DTW-LGA.

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

We have no idea what the terms of the loans are, or what terms B6 would be comfortable with in order to consummate a deal. So this is pure speculation.



I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

So basically it won’t matter what examples I give you, you will just blow them off.

What I gave you were two examples where many people said that won’t work. London and mint, yet it does.

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner. As for the others every airline will grow or shrink at different places that does not mean much.

But you are actually making my point for me. You are correct JetBlue elt is slow and deliberate they go with what they know and rarely go outside the box. Which is why I keep telling you if they didn’t think this merger would work they would never do it. After David N almost killed the airline with hyper growth we have now in our DNA a very cautious leadership team.

It’s either they know it will work or they are all crazy and are risking the future of JetBlue here. I don’t think they are that dumb (again for the record I’m not even a fan of the ELT)

Yes, I will blow them off if they are bad examples. Mint was 10 years ago (Half the life of the airline ago) with also a somewhat different leadership team.

If Mint and flying a couple daily flights to the largest international market from their two largest hubs NYC/BOS are recent examples of "defying the odds" for you, then you are proving my point.

What I am getting at with PHL and the other examples, is B6 has not proven it can successfully expand its business model outside of the Northeast and Florida.

I'm really not making a complicated point here.

TYWoolman wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Wondering what the significance happens to be to bring up the fact that PHL "happens to be the hub of our NEA partner." (?) I can only wonder if B6 going forward shrinks or doesn't initiate service altogether in AA strongholds. I am not saying that you are supporting this position per se -maybe I don't have the true context of the other poster - but that kind of reference to the NEA is case-in-point on DOJ anti-competitive concerns that B6 will not be incentivized to compete with AA in markets outside Boston and NYC. Any AA market outside Boston and NYC should be irrelevant to B6 whatsoever as a market of it's "NEA partner." B6 has been touting the NK merger as a means to expand. Let's see if they expand in AA strongholds, the true litmus test. PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

B6 shrinking or not initiating service in AA strongholds would prove the DOJs point that the NEA is a noncompetitive agreement (a position I disagree with btw) & it even disincentives B6 from competiting with AA in non-NEA markets (ie PHL).

If I were a B6 person in favor of the NEA, I would be very careful on the wording.....

Flflyer83 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

fastmover wrote:

I said in recent years.....Mint was introduced almost 10 years ago and B6 has only been around for just over 20 years.

A Northeast based carrier adding a couple JFK/BOS-LON flights is not "defying the odds." It's a move that analysts expected for a long time.

Counting RDU, SFO, PHL, e.t.c. as experiments is fine, but when they fail you can't just say those "experiments" didn't matter. Those competitive challenges they faced growing in these US3 markets are going to be the same if not worse in a post-covid environment.

You forgot the failed focus cities at AUS and ORD. And the failed hub at LGB.

TYWoolman wrote:

fastmover wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I don’t know what you are getting at with PHL it’s not like it would be a focus city we grew some flight we shrank some flights it also happens to be the hub of our NEA partner.

Wondering what the significance happens to be to bring up the fact that PHL "happens to be the hub of our NEA partner." (?) I can only wonder if B6 going forward shrinks or doesn't initiate service altogether in AA strongholds. I am not saying that you are supporting this position per se -maybe I don't have the true context of the other poster - but that kind of reference to the NEA is case-in-point on DOJ anti-competitive concerns that B6 will not be incentivized to compete with AA in markets outside Boston and NYC. Any AA market outside Boston and NYC should be irrelevant to B6 whatsoever as a market of it's "NEA partner." B6 has been touting the NK merger as a means to expand. Let's see if they expand in AA strongholds, the true litmus test. PHL sure could use some "jetBlue effect," as would Phoenix, Dallas, Chicago and Charlotte, could it not?

rj777 wrote:

Well, we're a week away from the shareholders' vote.... any leaks, predictions on how it's gonna go?

Wneast wrote:

rj777 wrote:

Well, we're a week away from the shareholders' vote.... any leaks, predictions on how it's gonna go?

Obviously we know JetBlue is going to win…. My prediction they announce a agreement with JetBlue and cancel the shareholder vote.

Wneast wrote:

rj777 wrote:

Well, we're a week away from the shareholders' vote.... any leaks, predictions on how it's gonna go?

Obviously we know JetBlue is going to win…. My prediction they announce a agreement with JetBlue and cancel the shareholder vote.

fastmover wrote:

I think the overall point is JetBlue knows it can either go after spirit and grow fast or it can become the ALK of the east (and less profitable) stuck in an area and not overly relevant to the rest of the country.

VS4ever wrote:

Nada, he's trying to invoke Alaskan airlines as ALK unlike AS as most of us know it. But I'm trusting you knew that