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Northwest1988
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ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:16 pm

Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!
 
Bostrom
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:18 pm

 
LifelinerOne
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:21 pm

And from the horse's mouth:

https://www.atr-aircraft.com/presspost/ ... -aircraft/

They are not saying it's a new design but a next generation of the ATR42/72, hence the "EVO" name.

Cheers! :wave:
 
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keesje
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:39 pm

Goal is to "slash fuel burn by 20% over current models"

It seems a conservative approach over the more revolutionary, game changing concepts filling the skies and youtube.

Image
https://www.pilootenvliegtuig.nl/2022/0 ... ndrijving/
 
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william
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:42 pm

Looks like someone has been reading Embraer's New Gen Turboprop press releases.
 
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alberchico
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:45 pm

So it's essentially an ATR NEO designed to keep existing customers from being lured away to a possible Embraer new turboprop. Smart move. Things just got a bit more complicated for that project. This also means that a new design that will replace the ATR will likely be pushed back into the late 2030's.
Last edited by alberchico on Wed May 18, 2022 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AZa346
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:48 pm

william wrote:
Looks like someone has been reading Embraer's New Gen Turboprop press releases.

That is the nice aspect of already having a baseline aircraft onto which it is possible to install improvements... you see what the competition does and react accordingly.

Nonetheless, extremely exciting aircraft, and supposedly only 8 years away. This should cause a significant interest increase for the aircraft by the airlines.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:51 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.
 
IADCA
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:54 pm

alberchico wrote:
So it's essentially an ATR NEO designed to keep existing customers from being lured away to a possible Embraer new turboprop. Smart move. Things just got a bit more complicated for that project. This also means that a new design that will replace the ATR will likely be pushed back into the late 2030's.


Call it the ATR MAX. See the issue?
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 1:59 pm

I don't doubt that Embraer was ready for this. 20% is an impressive fuel burn reduction claim for a generational upgrade. SAF compatibility is also a good thing for ecological impact. That will matter in the European market in particular. It is no secret that the type of routes that ATR's are generally used for in Europe are going to increasingly be in the "cross-hairs" so to speak (rightly, imo), much like the new French rule banning non-connecting domestic flights.

Embraer will have their work cut out for them when competing with this product. The Embraer ought to be a more advanced (and comfortable) aircraft with greater room for growth and development since it is a clean-sheet, but the ATR is a very established product with many existing operators who doubtless will be interested in a further model with such promised fuel burn gains. The competition will be fascinating to watch.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 2:46 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
I don't doubt that Embraer was ready for this. 20% is an impressive fuel burn reduction claim for a generational upgrade. SAF compatibility is also a good thing for ecological impact. That will matter in the European market in particular. It is no secret that the type of routes that ATR's are generally used for in Europe are going to increasingly be in the "cross-hairs" so to speak (rightly, imo), much like the new French rule banning non-connecting domestic flights.

Embraer will have their work cut out for them when competing with this product. The Embraer ought to be a more advanced (and comfortable) aircraft with greater room for growth and development since it is a clean-sheet, but the ATR is a very established product with many existing operators who doubtless will be interested in a further model with such promised fuel burn gains. The competition will be fascinating to watch.


Agree, this was a predictable and necessary response from ATR with Embraer poised to launch a clean sheet turboprop early next year. I’ve been looking around for Embraer’s proposed fuel burn reductions in next gen prop. It seems the 90-seater is targeted to beat the ATR-72 by 18% on a per seat basis. To this end, 20% savings from ATR seems aspirational... almost hard to believe.
 
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alberchico
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 2:52 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
I don't doubt that Embraer was ready for this. 20% is an impressive fuel burn reduction claim for a generational upgrade. SAF compatibility is also a good thing for ecological impact. That will matter in the European market in particular. It is no secret that the type of routes that ATR's are generally used for in Europe are going to increasingly be in the "cross-hairs" so to speak (rightly, imo), much like the new French rule banning non-connecting domestic flights.

Embraer will have their work cut out for them when competing with this product. The Embraer ought to be a more advanced (and comfortable) aircraft with greater room for growth and development since it is a clean-sheet, but the ATR is a very established product with many existing operators who doubtless will be interested in a further model with such promised fuel burn gains. The competition will be fascinating to watch.


Agree, this was a predictable and necessary response from ATR with Embraer poised to launch a clean sheet turboprop early next year. I’ve been looking around for Embraer’s proposed fuel burn reductions in next gen prop. It seems the 90-seater is targeted to beat the ATR-72 by 18% on a per seat basis. To this end, 20% savings from ATR seems aspirational... almost hard to believe.


I agree. I imagine over the next year airlines will be asking detailed questions regarding how exactly will they achieve such enormous reductions. It just seems too good to be true.
 
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william
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 2:56 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
I don't doubt that Embraer was ready for this. 20% is an impressive fuel burn reduction claim for a generational upgrade. SAF compatibility is also a good thing for ecological impact. That will matter in the European market in particular. It is no secret that the type of routes that ATR's are generally used for in Europe are going to increasingly be in the "cross-hairs" so to speak (rightly, imo), much like the new French rule banning non-connecting domestic flights.

Embraer will have their work cut out for them when competing with this product. The Embraer ought to be a more advanced (and comfortable) aircraft with greater room for growth and development since it is a clean-sheet, but the ATR is a very established product with many existing operators who doubtless will be interested in a further model with such promised fuel burn gains. The competition will be fascinating to watch.


I agree, Embraer had to know this was going to happen. Anetters always want something new and shinny thinking its automatically more efficient. Sometimes its true, sometimes not.

I see this as Airbus not ready to drop big coin on a new airframe.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 2:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


The press release does mention an enhanced cabin design - Bin technology has come a long way and I would assume they’ll have enhanced bins in the new model.

Speed is a compromise for efficiency. It’s not like this plane will be competing with CRJs and Q400s. I’d be surprised if the Embraer has a meaningful speed advantage over the ATR.

The cabin door is a major question. Both the new ATR and Embraer will be EIS around a time when many CRJs and E-Jets are entering their replacement cycle. In the massive US market (not the only market, obviously, but an important one), jetway boarding has become the standard. If ATR is going to compete, they absolutely need to figure out the doors.
 
Noshow
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 3:01 pm

It's a workhorse made for regional airlines and maintenance. Late engines and a rugged, simple setup are the sellers. Nobody in their market wants to have to repair CFRP wonders off base.
What they get now is just the new technology overflowing from Airbus research (plus Leonardo). Like said above to remain level with whatever Embraer announces.
 
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alberchico
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 3:20 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


The press release does mention an enhanced cabin design - Bin technology has come a long way and I would assume they’ll have enhanced bins in the new model.

Speed is a compromise for efficiency. It’s not like this plane will be competing with CRJs and Q400s. I’d be surprised if the Embraer has a meaningful speed advantage over the ATR.

The cabin door is a major question. Both the new ATR and Embraer will be EIS around a time when many CRJs and E-Jets are entering their replacement cycle. In the massive US market (not the only market, obviously, but an important one), jetway boarding has become the standard. If ATR is going to compete, they absolutely need to figure out the doors.


Ever since the American Eagle accident in the 1990's, U.S. operators have largely stayed away from the ATR, so I think any major redesign of the main entrance to accommodate jetways will not happen. Also in the U.S. market there is a preference for speed which is why aircraft like the ERJ and CRJ series have been so wildly popular. The article below claims that there are only 43 ATR aircraft registered in the U.S. That is a pitifully small number. I just don't see any regionals here warming up to this aircraft.

https://simpleflying.com/us-operators-m ... %20Airways.
 
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keesje
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 4:04 pm

No doubt door configuration will be reveiewed, airlines being interviewed. Maybe back to the old configuration?

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ATR_72.JPG

Old school aeronautics says engines on the wings are more efficient than in a tail (concentrating (engine)weight where the lift is)

I wouldn't be surprised if Embraer changes its mind.. Same thing for high wings for lower speeds (wheel bays not that bad).

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https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... ucing-evo/
 
classicjets
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 4:33 pm



ATRs in the US have used jetbridge boarding in the past :old:
 
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JBo
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 4:39 pm

alberchico wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Ever since the American Eagle accident in the 1990's, U.S. operators have largely stayed away from the ATR, so I think any major redesign of the main entrance to accommodate jetways will not happen. Also in the U.S. market there is a preference for speed which is why aircraft like the ERJ and CRJ series have been so wildly popular. The article below claims that there are only 43 ATR aircraft registered in the U.S. That is a pitifully small number. I just don't see any regionals here warming up to this aircraft.


It's been almost 30 years now since AA4184. Most adult travelers these days probably don't remember it. But operating carriers might still have reservations about it.

I personally don't see AA, UA, or DL wanting the ATR (or any other turboprops) flying under their brand, and independently branded regionals don't really ever gain much of a foothold in the market, except in some niche areas (Silver, Cape Air).

As much as I'd like to see more ATRs around here, I doubt it'll happen except for maybe more freighters.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:01 pm

JBo wrote:
alberchico wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:


It's been almost 30 years now since AA4184. Most adult travelers these days probably don't remember it. But operating carriers might still have reservations about it.

I personally don't see AA, UA, or DL wanting the ATR (or any other turboprops) flying under their brand, and independently branded regionals don't really ever gain much of a foothold in the market, except in some niche areas (Silver, Cape Air).

As much as I'd like to see more ATRs around here, I doubt it'll happen except for maybe more freighters.


I think the times, they are a changin’. Within the next 20 years, the predominant powerplant design on small- and mid-sized commercial aircraft is likely to become an open-rotor design, which the average flyer will consider a “propeller”, however wrong that is.

United has already signaled its intent to re-engine the CRJ-550 with an open-rotor hydrogen engine.
https://airinsight.com/united-eyes-hydr ... nvestment/

Even if that’s a pipe-dream, CFM’s concept for the future engine is very real.

To this end, I think airlines and the public will eventually accept things that look like propellers. It’s going to be a choice between that, or an electric car or train.
 
avier
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:12 pm

Hope Embraer doesn't kill their new turboprop project seeing this, citing unviability of project and increased competition from ATR; which has a big existing customer base for this market category.
And then, once Embraer project is dead, ATR will scrap this and say we'll just wait for the hydrogen turboprop planes from parent Airbus to come in mid-2030's.
 
jbs2886
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:15 pm

avier wrote:
Hope Embraer doesn't kill their new turboprop project seeing this, citing unviability of project and increased competition from ATR; which has a big existing customer base for this market category.
And then, once Embraer project is dead, ATR will scrap this and say we'll just wait for the hydrogen turboprop planes from parent Airbus to come in mid-2030's.


This won't surprise Embraer...if it does, Embraer has bigger issues.
 
SXDFC
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:19 pm

I wonder if they will do a freighter version?
 
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william
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:23 pm

Embraer did not think ATR would not react? If Embraer did not plan for their new TP to be 20% more efficient than the present ATR, then yes, Embraer has bigger problems.
 
docmtl
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 5:40 pm

I've been following Embraer's TPNG topic here, and the company announces a EIS for 2027 with regular TP engines, already SAF-friendly.

Moreover, they propose their 70-90 TPNG as ready-by-design for H2 propulsion or hybrid-electric whenever such engines become available. And it would unlikely any engine supplier would give exclusive rights to Leonardo/Airbus on this technology.

https://leehamnews.com/2021/10/18/ponti ... -the-tpng/

By the time Leonardo/Airbus will launch the ATR-EVO, Embraer's TPNG would be already flying (supposedly...) and ready for an engine upgrade.

Good to see how competition is an excellent driver for improvement and new technology.

docmtl
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 6:01 pm

Since most of the fuel burn improvements promised are going fall on the engines to deliver, what new engines are being developed for this proposal? The current ATRs have been using the Pratt Whitney Canada PW127, which is rooted in a 45 year old design.
Last edited by FLALEFTY on Wed May 18, 2022 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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alberchico
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 6:04 pm

avier wrote:
Hope Embraer doesn't kill their new turboprop project seeing this, citing unviability of project and increased competition from ATR; which has a big existing customer base for this market category.
And then, once Embraer project is dead, ATR will scrap this and say we'll just wait for the hydrogen turboprop planes from parent Airbus to come in mid-2030's.


The cost of building a NEO version like this is quite small for an organization like ATR that has access to many resources. Airbus probably prefers this to a clean sheet replacement. Also, many experts have raised questions regarding how practical and economically viable a hydrogen powered airliner will really be. So this looks like a good interim solution until the 2040's or even 2050's when that technology matures a bit. Making sure any new powerplants can run on 100% SAF is a much more practical target.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/
 
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Devilfish
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's a workhorse made for regional airlines and maintenance. Late engines and a rugged, simple setup are the sellers. Nobody in their market wants to have to repair CFRP wonders off base. What they get now is just the new technology overflowing from Airbus research (plus Leonardo).

Agreed...I think ATR will trial the new hybrid tech first on their ATR42-600S which just had its maiden flight, to save on test platforms and gain a headstart..... :arrow:

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 07.article


keesje wrote:
No doubt door configuration will be reveiewed, airlines being interviewed. Maybe back to the old configuration?

keesje wrote:
Old school aeronautics says engines on the wings are more efficient than in a tail (concentrating (engine)weight where the lift is) [.....] Same thing for high wings for lower speeds (wheel bays not that bad).

Shorter fuselage notwithstanding, their ATR42-600S is IMHO the logical choice on which to launch this combined study. Doubtful the myriad of electric propulsion concepts being floated would have much over a SAF engined ATR42 in terms of speed and range.

Image
https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... 00x422.png
 
IADCA
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 7:10 pm

keesje wrote:
No doubt door configuration will be reveiewed, airlines being interviewed. Maybe back to the old configuration?


Front-boarding doors are already offered for the American market on the current edition. CGI of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtUHW6l06zQ.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 7:17 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
And from the horse's mouth:

https://www.atr-aircraft.com/presspost/ ... -aircraft/

They are not saying it's a new design but a next generation of the ATR42/72, hence the "EVO" name.

Cheers! :wave:

The artist rendering seem to include a whole new/more aerodynamic nose and windshield; is it just for the rendering? What are the chances this is applied to the final design?
 
EK770
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 7:23 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
In the massive US market (not the only market, obviously, but an important one), jetway boarding has become the standard. If ATR is going to compete, they absolutely need to figure out the doors.


Havent they already figured this out? There was a "US Cabin" pitched a few years back with forward door boarding

https://youtu.be/EtUHW6l06zQ?t=15
 
Metchalus
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 8:04 pm

avier wrote:
Hope Embraer doesn't kill their new turboprop project seeing this, citing unviability of project and increased competition from ATR; which has a big existing customer base for this market category.
And then, once Embraer project is dead, ATR will scrap this and say we'll just wait for the hydrogen turboprop planes from parent Airbus to come in mid-2030's.

If a single competitor, who isn't even a new entrant was enpugh for Embraer to end their project.
Embraer should quit the business.
 
Metchalus
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 8:07 pm

EK770 wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
In the massive US market (not the only market, obviously, but an important one), jetway boarding has become the standard. If ATR is going to compete, they absolutely need to figure out the doors.


Havent they already figured this out? There was a "US Cabin" pitched a few years back with forward door boarding

https://youtu.be/EtUHW6l06zQ?t=15


If this is an option why doesn't Silver use it?
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 8:39 pm

Metchalus wrote:
EK770 wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
In the massive US market (not the only market, obviously, but an important one), jetway boarding has become the standard. If ATR is going to compete, they absolutely need to figure out the doors.


Havent they already figured this out? There was a "US Cabin" pitched a few years back with forward door boarding

https://youtu.be/EtUHW6l06zQ?t=15


If this is an option why doesn't Silver use it?


Probably re-sale value. If you choose a door configuration no one else has the value on the re-sale market will suffer since the a/c won’t be easily compatible with others. Silver doesn’t have anywhere near a DL/AA/UA/WN critical mass to over customize aircraft and not worry about it.
 
EIBPI
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 9:41 pm

This is a logical and realistic development.

When we talk about a 20% fuel burn improvement by 2030, it really puts all the big talk about zero emissions aircraft by the early 2030s into context.

It is hard to see where the miracle and certifiable solution will come from when one observes the massive difficulties getting fully conventional projects into service.
 
rigo
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 10:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


They're not the most comfortable of aircraft but they make it possible to fly routes that almost no other aircraft could do.
 
rigo
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 10:41 pm

EIBPI wrote:
This is a logical and realistic development.

When we talk about a 20% fuel burn improvement by 2030, it really puts all the big talk about zero emissions aircraft by the early 2030s into context.

It is hard to see where the miracle and certifiable solution will come from when one observes the massive difficulties getting fully conventional projects into service.


According to Air&Cosmos (https://air-cosmos.com/article/atr-prepare-la-nouvelle-generation-de-ses-avions-36152 - in French) they will be ready for "hybrid propulsion" (whatever that means).
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 11:16 pm

With all the talk of “hybrid-electric” engines being a major part of ATR’s aggressive fuel burn reduction promises, would it be realistic for Embraer to try to do the same? I imagine they are aware of the concept, could they integrate something similar to their new TP proposal? The aircraft has yet to be officially launched and is far from finalized. Not knowledgable enough myself to know if this is feasible (or necessary).
 
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alberchico
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Wed May 18, 2022 11:47 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
With all the talk of “hybrid-electric” engines being a major part of ATR’s aggressive fuel burn reduction promises, would it be realistic for Embraer to try to do the same? I imagine they are aware of the concept, could they integrate something similar to their new TP proposal? The aircraft has yet to be officially launched and is far from finalized. Not knowledgable enough myself to know if this is feasible (or necessary).


Embraer is developing a small cargo aircraft for the air force that will utilize hybrid propulsion. This project will pave the way for a larger aircraft to utilize this propulsion system, but that is still a long way off. The problem with hybrid propulsion is that in exchange for a large reduction in fuel consumption you add weight and complexity to a design, which can negate some of the fuel savings. And the issue with hydrogen is that the huge storage tanks cut deeply into your payload, which can make the aircraft unprofitable. Perhaps in a few years lighter storage tanks suitable for aircraft can be developed, but for now that is the main design problem.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2020/11/em ... t-project/

https://leehamnews.com/2020/09/25/hydro ... -here-yet/
 
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keesje
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Thu May 19, 2022 1:27 pm

Wonder where the batteries, fuel cells, H2 is stored for the hybrid power.

I guess there are big open questions about basic choices.

ATR is going to talk to the engines manufacturers? What an amazing initiative..

Image
https://50skyshades.com/news/manufactur ... ustainable

Also some aerodynamic improvements (e.g. wing tips) could be made iso a nice new livery. E.g. an newly optimized capacity/ cabin length.

"Increased use of lighter bio-sourced materials" .. What's the real impact of "bio sourced" interior parts on the environmental impact of an aircraft during it's 60.000hrs of flying?
Bottom line totally neglectable green washing? Feel good for the don't knows?

All early in the design process it seems. Lots of PR, little real commitment.
 
Canuck600
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Thu May 19, 2022 5:05 pm

Question about the American Eagle accident, how could a single accident turn American operators off from ATR? I could see it if a half dozen or more of the same model turned themselves into lawn darts. Is this just another case of airliners.net "wisdom"?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Thu May 19, 2022 6:56 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
Question about the American Eagle accident, how could a single accident turn American operators off from ATR? I could see it if a half dozen or more of the same model turned themselves into lawn darts. Is this just another case of airliners.net "wisdom"?


Delta, for one, had already started getting RJs by the time of the Roselawn accident in 1994, as Comair replaced Saabs. Very few ATR-42 or -72s ever found their way into major American (the nationality, not the airline) fleets.

The AA historians will jump in, but IIRC, AA's ATRs got concentrated at the SJU hub, and when B6 showed you could go from NYC to the Caribbean without a connection at MIA or SJU, AA's SJU hub was dismantled.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... kets-71302
 
tomcat
Posts: 1020
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Thu May 19, 2022 7:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


I had one of my most enjoyable flight on an ATR. I flew from Palu to Ampana (Central Sulawesi, Indonesia) and it was great to feel the strong acceleration during the takeoff roll, to circle climb out of the narrow bay a Palu surrounded by mountains and eventually getting over the mountains and flying over the Gulf of Tomini to go land at the small airport of Ampana. I didn't find anything wrong with the location of the door, the speed of the aircraft or the size of the overhead bins. They rather contributed positively to the experience.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 8075
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Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Thu May 19, 2022 8:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Question about the American Eagle accident, how could a single accident turn American operators off from ATR? I could see it if a half dozen or more of the same model turned themselves into lawn darts. Is this just another case of airliners.net "wisdom"?


Delta, for one, had already started getting RJs by the time of the Roselawn accident in 1994, as Comair replaced Saabs. Very few ATR-42 or -72s ever found their way into major American (the nationality, not the airline) fleets.

The AA historians will jump in, but IIRC, AA's ATRs got concentrated at the SJU hub, and when B6 showed you could go from NYC to the Caribbean without a connection at MIA or SJU, AA's SJU hub was dismantled.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... kets-71302

Apples and oranges, but FedEx has a huge fleet of ATRs. Continental also had a pretty good sized fleet of ATRs (many also based in EWR before they were drawn down), and AAs did a decently long stint at DFW into the 2010s.

For prop jobs in general, the ATRs main competition, the Dash 8, was operated by most legacies regional divisions in the US for a very long time, with Horizon still flying the Q400 for AS, and Silver still flying the ATR.
 
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LaunchDetected
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 12:21 am

Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


It's a step forward in propulsion but ATR is not an engine manufacturer. They "sent a request for information to engine manufacturers to develop the new powerplant. ". I mean... It takes a lot of time to develop an engine, even more when the supplier is not yet selected.
More a way for ATR to recall Embraer that they are still there
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 2:15 am

TWA772LR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Question about the American Eagle accident, how could a single accident turn American operators off from ATR? I could see it if a half dozen or more of the same model turned themselves into lawn darts. Is this just another case of airliners.net "wisdom"?


Delta, for one, had already started getting RJs by the time of the Roselawn accident in 1994, as Comair replaced Saabs. Very few ATR-42 or -72s ever found their way into major American (the nationality, not the airline) fleets.

The AA historians will jump in, but IIRC, AA's ATRs got concentrated at the SJU hub, and when B6 showed you could go from NYC to the Caribbean without a connection at MIA or SJU, AA's SJU hub was dismantled.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... kets-71302

Apples and oranges, but FedEx has a huge fleet of ATRs. Continental also had a pretty good sized fleet of ATRs (many also based in EWR before they were drawn down), and AAs did a decently long stint at DFW into the 2010s.

For prop jobs in general, the ATRs main competition, the Dash 8, was operated by most legacies regional divisions in the US for a very long time, with Horizon still flying the Q400 for AS, and Silver still flying the ATR.


The AA ATR’s last stand was at MIA I believe, you still saw a decent showing outside of D60 ten years ago around their end. DL (ASA) parked their’s ~ 2008.
 
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JBo
Posts: 1921
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 2:51 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Question about the American Eagle accident, how could a single accident turn American operators off from ATR? I could see it if a half dozen or more of the same model turned themselves into lawn darts. Is this just another case of airliners.net "wisdom"?


Delta, for one, had already started getting RJs by the time of the Roselawn accident in 1994, as Comair replaced Saabs. Very few ATR-42 or -72s ever found their way into major American (the nationality, not the airline) fleets.

The AA historians will jump in, but IIRC, AA's ATRs got concentrated at the SJU hub, and when B6 showed you could go from NYC to the Caribbean without a connection at MIA or SJU, AA's SJU hub was dismantled.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... kets-71302


AA4184 was one of a handful of fatal accidents involving regional turboprop aircraft that happened in the mid-1990s (there was also an AA Jetstream 31 that crashed that I recall offhand). The cause of the AA4184 crash was deemed to be a design flaw with the de-icing boots on the ATR aircraft. That kind of bloomed into a broader concern over the safety and reliability of regional turboprops, and that combined with the advent of regional jets pretty much sealed ATR's fate in the U.S. market.

AA migrated all of their ATRs to the Caribbean, keeping them away from winter weather.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14075
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 5:07 am

tomcat wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/47928534209795 ... 10878/?d=n

While not a “new” design, it is a step forward in propulsion. I personally like the ATR-42/72 design so I’m glad it’s sticking around!


How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


I had one of my most enjoyable flight on an ATR. I flew from Palu to Ampana (Central Sulawesi, Indonesia) and it was great to feel the strong acceleration during the takeoff roll, to circle climb out of the narrow bay a Palu surrounded by mountains and eventually getting over the mountains and flying over the Gulf of Tomini to go land at the small airport of Ampana. I didn't find anything wrong with the location of the door, the speed of the aircraft or the size of the overhead bins. They rather contributed positively to the experience.


Have you ever been in a Q400, the acceleration and climb are much faster, the doors are at the right end and the overhead bins are that little bit larger, making the Q400 a better turboprop experience.
 
bluecrew
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 8:23 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Delta, for one, had already started getting RJs by the time of the Roselawn accident in 1994, as Comair replaced Saabs. Very few ATR-42 or -72s ever found their way into major American (the nationality, not the airline) fleets.

The AA historians will jump in, but IIRC, AA's ATRs got concentrated at the SJU hub, and when B6 showed you could go from NYC to the Caribbean without a connection at MIA or SJU, AA's SJU hub was dismantled.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... kets-71302

Apples and oranges, but FedEx has a huge fleet of ATRs. Continental also had a pretty good sized fleet of ATRs (many also based in EWR before they were drawn down), and AAs did a decently long stint at DFW into the 2010s.

For prop jobs in general, the ATRs main competition, the Dash 8, was operated by most legacies regional divisions in the US for a very long time, with Horizon still flying the Q400 for AS, and Silver still flying the ATR.


The AA ATR’s last stand was at MIA I believe, you still saw a decent showing outside of D60 ten years ago around their end. DL (ASA) parked their’s ~ 2008.

I believe they left MIA for DFW, and spent a few more years kicking around as EXK, ending in 2013. Bankruptcy forced AA to dump the aircraft, and the CEO became the first (and current) CEO of Envoy.

By about 2010 the vast majority of Eagle operations in MIA had been shifted to ERJs, with the exception of the Bahamas and Key West, and the ATRs spent a bit doing Killeen, Ft. Hood, Hobby, etc., in Texas before getting yeeted and turned into beer cans.


On the subject of this announcement - nothing-burger.
ATR is saying they'll talk to engine manufacturers and they're committed to an ATPrius. Cool, still looks like an ATR, and it's not like they have any joint announcements or realistic mockups to show, or predictors of performance. This is like issuing an RFP and then announcing "Look! We're not dead! We issued an RFP!!"
In the US the turboprop (especially the slow turboprop, like the ATR vs. the DH8D) is functionally dead. The market for ATR is to hunt markets where the emphasis is on reduced operating costs, like where their aircraft operate today, as opposed to adding operational complexity with a hybrid powerplant, batteries, etc.
Their product is in the most extensive use among small cargo operators, and small airlines in third world countries. I don't think the LionAir Group is going to want to buy 100 hybrid ATRs with more things the mechanics, rampers, and pilots can break.
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1470
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

Re: ATR announces it is researching new design

Fri May 20, 2022 10:47 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

How can anyone like ATR’s the doors at the wrong end, they’re slow and the overhead bins are too small.


I had one of my most enjoyable flight on an ATR. I flew from Palu to Ampana (Central Sulawesi, Indonesia) and it was great to feel the strong acceleration during the takeoff roll, to circle climb out of the narrow bay a Palu surrounded by mountains and eventually getting over the mountains and flying over the Gulf of Tomini to go land at the small airport of Ampana. I didn't find anything wrong with the location of the door, the speed of the aircraft or the size of the overhead bins. They rather contributed positively to the experience.


Have you ever been in a Q400, the acceleration and climb are much faster, the doors are at the right end and the overhead bins are that little bit larger, making the Q400 a better turboprop experience.


Cant agree with you there, i much prefer all my flights on the -600 version of the ATR compared to the Q400.

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