(Hypothetical question) Could an airline like AA, UA, DL, or any other non LCC make a 737-800 work in a 200 seat configuration?

If they wanted to operate an aircraft configured for an LCC then sure, but that just wouldn’t fit the business model.

Please don't give them any ideas!

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

It would be only required if they wanted todo all Y config, having F up front would make it near impossible to reach 200 seats.

It could work for someone like BA who likes using all Y seats in a320 at min pitch. Who just sells J as a blocked middle seat.

zkncj wrote:

It would be only required if they wanted todo all Y config, having F up front would make it near impossible to reach 200 seats.

It could work for someone like BA who likes using all Y seats in a320 at min pitch. Who just sells J as a blocked middle seat.

And when only a few rows are reserved for Business due to the blocked seats the passenger count will drop near or to 189 very quickly, which makes the extra Exits pointless.
But sure for a few EU non LCC this MAY be an option but I dont think they will do it.

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Arajat, Allegiant, and Vietjet also have on order

IAG also just ordered

It would look like as of today, IAG has the 737-8200 on order (50 737-8200 & 50 737-10). Plenty of potential fleets for the new IAG 737s to serve in.

ericm2031 wrote:

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Arajat, Allegiant, and Vietjet also have on order

IAG also just ordered

Add Akasa Air to that equation as well.

SXDFC wrote:

(Hypothetical question) Could an airline like AA, UA, DL, or any other non LCC make a 737-800 work in a 200 seat configuration?

If we speak to AA/DL/UA specifically:

- they haven't (yet!) gone to 28" seat pitch in coach

- all mainline aircraft have some some of Y+ seating

- all mainline aircraft have F (or J) seating

That leaves no way to cram 200 seats into a MAX8-200. If you really meant the 737-800, I believe that is exit-limited to 189 seats.

For reference, DL has 199 seats in its domestic First (not lie-flat Business intl config) 757-200s.

CX747 wrote:

It would look like as of today, IAG has the 737-8200 on order (50 737-8200 & 50 737-10). Plenty of potential fleets for the new IAG 737s to serve in.

It seems more 25 737-8200 & 25 737-10. https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-05-19/

With F9 and NK merging potentially I wonder if the big 3 would need to complete. I can see moving to 28 inch pitch in the next 5 years for higher casm. To keep shareholders happy. But I don't see any of the big 3 ordering the max-8200. I'm sure airlines would love to push the 738 or max8 to 180 seats for best use of 4 FA.

Unless the big 3 decides to drop business class it's not happening.

PHLspecial wrote:

With F9 and NK merging potentially I wonder if the big 3 would need to complete. I can see moving to 28 inch pitch in the next 5 years for higher casm. To keep shareholders happy. But I don't see any of the big 3 ordering the max-8200. I'm sure airlines would love to push the 738 or max8 to 180 seats for best use of 4 FA.

Unless the big 3 decides to drop business class it's not happening.

The Big 3 (really Big 4) compete by offering me 31" to 33" seating in coach class at a cost just slightly north of the ULCCs.... Secondly, they compete by offering me a variety of connection options. I have never flown Frontier, Spirit, nor Allegiant.... I've never flown any of the ULCCs... sub 30" seat pitch doesn't interest me.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

The Big 3 (really Big 4) compete by offering me 31" to 33" seating in coach class...

If you're going to fly AA, DL, UA or (most of) Southwest, you need to be prepared for 30-31" seat pitch in coach.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

... at a cost just slightly north of the ULCCs....

Maybe you have the flexibility to fly their lowest published fares on off days, at 6AM or late evenings, but the yields of AA/DL/UA (and, to a lesser extent, WN, AS and B6) are well above the U.S. ULCCs. Look at their 8-K filings for quarterly earnings over the last five years.

But, no, even Oasis'd and Kodiak'd AA planes aren't yet all coach at 28" pitch to meet the OP's inquiry.

I could see mainline carriers ordering Max 8200 aircraft and plugging the exits to boost resale value. Maybe not the US3 because they generally keep their hands on aircraft their whole life. But for carriers that don’t keep their aircraft as long, 8200s could end up being the default variant of the 8200 catches on in the second hand market.

For a US Carrier to get to 190 seats and need the exits, the closest is AA. With the current layout they would need to shift the Lavs into the bulkhead wall aft of the exits to get a row that way. Then reduce seat pitch to 28” Y, 31” MCE, 35” F, and add 2 more rows of Y.

QXAS wrote:

I could see mainline carriers ordering Max 8200 aircraft and plugging the exits to boost resale value. Maybe not the US3 because they generally keep their hands on aircraft their whole life. But for carriers that don’t keep their aircraft as long, 8200s could end up being the default variant of the 8200 catches on in the second hand market.

For a US Carrier to get to 190 seats and need the exits, the closest is AA. With the current layout they would need to shift the Lavs into the bulkhead wall aft of the exits to get a row that way. Then reduce seat pitch to 28” Y, 31” MCE, 35” F, and add 2 more rows of Y.

I see the value in increasing resale attractiveness, but I wouldn’t see a mainline carrier buying the 8200 and plugging the door. The door adds weight which increases fuel burn and costs more. A leasing company may choose to plug the door, but I don’t see many network carriers buying 8200s if they don’t plan on carrying more than 189 people

PHLspecial wrote:

With F9 and NK merging potentially I wonder if the big 3 would need to complete. I can see moving to 28 inch pitch in the next 5 years for higher casm. To keep shareholders happy. But I don't see any of the big 3 ordering the max-8200. I'm sure airlines would love to push the 738 or max8 to 180 seats for best use of 4 FA.

Unless the big 3 decides to drop business class it's not happening.

A few years ago, I proposed the idea on this site of the legacies having the last 4-5 rows of Y be at 28 inch pitch for exactly the reason of countering the ULCCs. Ideally, this would even provide more legroom in either Y+ or regular Y also. 5 rows with 3 extra inches gained in each is an extra 15 inches. Assuming the first 15 rows of economy are Y+, that's an extra inch of pitch in each row which could bring in a nice extra premium on top of current upgrade prices. Hell, even if you go 11 rows of 28 inch pitch from 31, you could squeeze in another row of regular Y pitch.

In principle, the legacies did adopt part of the ULCC model with basic economy fare classes which didn't involve any aircraft modifications.

IDK, just spit balling.

I do not see the point of the 8200 in an airline offering 30" pitch or more. That is just my opinion. The whole point of the configuration is a little more seating to have the most seats in an ULCC configuration. Otherwise, buy the -8.

ericm2031 wrote:

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Arajat, Allegiant, and Vietjet also have on order

IAG also just ordered

IAG is the latest order.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-05-19/

Going from memory SpiceJet too and REDHL noted Akasa. I'm sure others I have forgotten. The 8200 is a great ULCC platform.

So not a huge userbase, but enough and growing. Considering this is just the high-density sub-model of the -8 MAX, it has done its job to sell more MAX.

Lightsaber

TWA772LR wrote:

PHLspecial wrote:

With F9 and NK merging potentially I wonder if the big 3 would need to complete. I can see moving to 28 inch pitch in the next 5 years for higher casm. To keep shareholders happy. But I don't see any of the big 3 ordering the max-8200. I'm sure airlines would love to push the 738 or max8 to 180 seats for best use of 4 FA.

Unless the big 3 decides to drop business class it's not happening.

A few years ago, I proposed the idea on this site of the legacies having the last 4-5 rows of Y be at 28 inch pitch for exactly the reason of countering the ULCCs. Ideally, this would even provide more legroom in either Y+ or regular Y also. 5 rows with 3 extra inches gained in each is an extra 15 inches. Assuming the first 15 rows of economy are Y+, that's an extra inch of pitch in each row which could bring in a nice extra premium on top of current upgrade prices. Hell, even if you go 11 rows of 28 inch pitch from 31, you could squeeze in another row of regular Y pitch.

As Lightsaber points out, 189 is the magic number: over that pushes a carrier from a 737-8 to an 8200.

Even two more rows of coach in an Oasis AA 738/MAX8 is 'only' 184. https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/exp ... planes.jsp

I don't know if U.S. passengers - even Basic Economy passengers - are ready to board a DL/AA/UA flight and be greeted by 28" seat pitch in a few rows in the back. I'm not going to be surprised if somebody tests it, however. Marketing is all about finding what people will pay for, and how much.

Then there's the story of AA employee pushback over 29" pitch on a few rows of early Oasis 738s.

https://viewfromthewing.com/report-amer ... ach-seats/

The problem with the idea of a legacy carrier dedicating a few rows to Basic fares with reduced pitch is that locks in a fixed number of seats that can only be sold at Basic fares. The airlines don’t really want customers buying Basic fares; they’d rather upsell to regular Economy fares. While they can always assign Basic customers to a standard economy seat (I’ve been assigned United Economy Plus seats without paying extra and without status before), they can’t go the other way and could end up in a situation where Basic fares are available but standard Economy is sold out, so they lose the opportunity to upsell the customer out of Basic.

With so much happening lately with LCCs, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that one or more of the big airlines use the -8200 to take another stab at a low-cost subsidiary (like Ted or Song from the mid-2000s). US travelers are more familiar with flying ULCCs now than 15 years ago and they may be a lot warmer to the idea of flying with less legroom and onboard service to a vacation destination if they can score a low fare and some of the other benefits of their normal mainline carrier (mileage accrual, etc). I think UA would be the most likely to try it, followed by AA (almost there on mainline anyway) and DL being least likely.

teachpdx wrote:

With so much happening lately with LCCs, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that one or more of the big airlines use the -8200 to take another stab at a low-cost subsidiary (like Ted or Song from the mid-2000s).

The airline-within-an-airline path only works when you can cut wage rates significantly - to make up from losses in fleet flexibility (because you can't cross-fleet), and from higher marketing expenses. With all U.S. carriers struggling to find enough people across multiple job functions, it's just not going to happen within the next few years. It's going to take a long time and a deep recession to convince airline employees they ought to work for less.

ikolkyo wrote:

If they wanted to operate an aircraft configured for an LCC then sure, but that just wouldn’t fit the business model.

Sounds like a fantastic Project Oasis aircraft

gatibosgru wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

If they wanted to operate an aircraft configured for an LCC then sure, but that just wouldn’t fit the business model.

Sounds like a fantastic Project Oasis aircraft

Despite all the complaints AA’s Project Oasis 737s are still 17 seats short of needing the extra exit pair of the -8200. Even bumping all of Y down to 28” wouldn’t free up enough space to add 3 more rows of seats.

MIflyer12 wrote:

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

The Big 3 (really Big 4) compete by offering me 31" to 33" seating in coach class...

If you're going to fly AA, DL, UA or (most of) Southwest, you need to be prepared for 30-31" seat pitch in coach.

31" w/ slimline is the norm for WN 73Gs which is what seems to fly out of MDW, TUS, ALB, HOU the airports that I use the most.... So I don't mind the Big 3 with 31" slimline... THough I will be happy when SouthWest has the MAX-7 w/ 32-33" comfort to match that of their 738 and MAX8...

I just can't ever get an Allegiant, Spirit, Frontier flight from point A to point B.... so I've never had the displeasure of flying on anything with less than 31" slimline pitch.

Are the 29" rows identified when you book a plane on a project Oasis craft? ('Project Oasis'... my god people know how to disguise nefarious behavior.... kind of like the 'Patriot Act')

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Malta Air has 25 B737-8200 flying.

Regards,

olli wrote:

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Malta Air has 25 B737-8200 flying.

Regards,

Malta Air is a Ryanair subsidiary.

olli wrote:

B787register wrote:

Isn't the 200 exclusive to Ryanair?

Malta Air has 25 B737-8200 flying.

Regards,

IAG just ordered 25 of them.

Just to clarify a couple of points about the Ryanair (or Malta Air) 737- MAX 8200. The aircraft is actually pretty comfortable. The extra rows are mainly at the expense of lavatory space (back), galley space (front), and possibly the bulkhead might have been moved further back?
I'm actually inclined to say the -8200 I recently flew on from/to the Canaries (over 4.00 hrs) offered the same or possibly more legroom of the standard -800 fitted with 189 seats. The F/As I spoke to said all the extra cabin area dedicated to the extra rows was at the expense of 'their own workspace', so if anything it's pejorative to them only. F/A complement was 4 people, and service was courteous and attentive. The Max is also considerably quieter, also in the aft cabin, so a really welcome upgrade over the standard -800.
Other than the BoB type of service, and the somewhat nasty seat allocation fees, you'd be hard pressed to spot any meaningful differences these days from most intra-European flights on *National/full-service/legacy* ...

oldannyboy wrote:

Just to clarify a couple of points about the Ryanair (or Malta Air) 737- MAX 8200. The aircraft is actually pretty comfortable. The extra rows are mainly at the expense of lavatory space (back), galley space (front), and possibly the bulkhead might have been moved further back?
I'm actually inclined to say the -8200 I recently flew on from/to the Canaries (over 4.00 hrs) offered the same or possibly more legroom of the standard -800 fitted with 189 seats. The F/As I spoke to said all the extra cabin area dedicated to the extra rows was at the expense of 'their own workspace', so if anything it's pejorative to them only. F/A complement was 4 people, and service was courteous and attentive. The Max is also considerably quieter, also in the aft cabin, so a really welcome upgrade over the standard -800.
Other than the BoB type of service, and the somewhat nasty seat allocation fees, you'd be hard pressed to spot any meaningful differences these days from most intra-European flights on *National/full-service/legacy* ...

So the 737-8200 from Ryanair is the best ride in the sky these days in Europe?

Not all of the pitch reductions over the past few years has come at the expense of passenger space, legroom etc, At least some is from thinner seat backs.

HL300MUC wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

Just to clarify a couple of points about the Ryanair (or Malta Air) 737- MAX 8200. The aircraft is actually pretty comfortable. The extra rows are mainly at the expense of lavatory space (back), galley space (front), and possibly the bulkhead might have been moved further back?
I'm actually inclined to say the -8200 I recently flew on from/to the Canaries (over 4.00 hrs) offered the same or possibly more legroom of the standard -800 fitted with 189 seats. The F/As I spoke to said all the extra cabin area dedicated to the extra rows was at the expense of 'their own workspace', so if anything it's pejorative to them only. F/A complement was 4 people, and service was courteous and attentive. The Max is also considerably quieter, also in the aft cabin, so a really welcome upgrade over the standard -800.
Other than the BoB type of service, and the somewhat nasty seat allocation fees, you'd be hard pressed to spot any meaningful differences these days from most intra-European flights on *National/full-service/legacy* ...

So the 737-8200 from Ryanair is the best ride in the sky these days in Europe?

No, I never said that. I just said that I was actually surprised in fact at how perfectly adequate for a 4-hour flight in economy the 'hardware' is... perfectly decent (slimline) seats with a decent "pre-set recline", decent legroom, excellent cabin quietness back and front, the usual lovely Boeing sky interior with mood lighting, the huge bins.... it's really a pretty nice place to be, trust me. Granted, the toilets are tiny, and the galleys too.
Would the TAP A330-300 that I recently flew between Vienna and Lisbon on be better? Sure would. Would the LH A320ceo be better? Not really.