Etheereal wrote:They are, look at how they're pricing and charging on their flights now (check their website).
Well, I don't agree with this. All mainline airlines do this nowadays so AV is definitely not low cost because of that.
A388
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Etheereal wrote:They are, look at how they're pricing and charging on their flights now (check their website).
A388 wrote:Etheereal wrote:They are, look at how they're pricing and charging on their flights now (check their website).
Well, I don't agree with this. All mainline airlines do this nowadays so AV is definitely not low cost because of that.
A388
stewartg wrote:What makes a LCC, a LCC? I dont think its just calling yourself one. In the US, its mainly how you give benefits to your employees, is it not? (Retirement plans, unions, etc). Labor laws in Lat Am are far more restrictive. So unless a new carrier is taking advantage of recent changes to local laws, how is AV changing to a LCC at its core?
A388 wrote:Etheereal wrote:They are, look at how they're pricing and charging on their flights now (check their website).
Well, I don't agree with this. All mainline airlines do this nowadays so AV is definitely not low cost because of that.
A388
oceanbeat wrote:I agree the fare structure doesn't make a an airline LCC. It is the product they offer. A legacy or full carrier offers among others:
- First or Business Class
- Entertainment on board
- Food and Beverages on board
-VIP lounges
-Loyalty Program
- Distribution on traditional channels like GDS
- wide network through partnerships with other carriers or alliances
Avianca is definitely swimming in LCC waters as it has downgraded its product ex. no business anymore on Int. flights in the Americas, however it can't be catalogued as an LCC as it still offers many of the other products a legacy does. The issue here is, will they manage to compete with that hybrid product? time will tell.
Even their product on European flights is very poor. Offering a crew meal to a business class passenger flying LHR-BOG? c'mon. Never seen anything like that.
https://liveandletsfly.com/avianca-787-business-class/
oceanbeat wrote:Haven't heard of any airline having supply issues in catering. So the catering company can/could prepare a crew meal but not a business class that obviously represent more profit for them? and then what about letter given to the passengers apologizing and asking for patience? this is no supply issue, its just plain mismanagement.
Yes, we don't know the details and yes, it's better not to generalize, but consensus is service has gone to sh***t, even some crew members that I'm friends with have told me so. It's hard for them to work with such a poor offering when passengers are paying high fares in this cabin.
I wish them good luck, specially when other airlines in the regions are not following this experiment on the opposite their improving their customer experience. AeroMexico and Copa for instance offer hot meals. LATAM and Copa just opened a new lounges in Santiago and in Panama. I guess someone has to cater to those business class passengers that Avianca doesn't want on board anymore.
dcajet wrote:Eff 1NOV, LATAM Colombia returns to the Bogota - Miami route, daily with A320, increasing to 11x week eff 1FEB23. LATAM Colombia last flew on this route in SEP2019.
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220806-lanw22bog
DCA350 wrote:dcajet wrote:Eff 1NOV, LATAM Colombia returns to the Bogota - Miami route, daily with A320, increasing to 11x week eff 1FEB23. LATAM Colombia last flew on this route in SEP2019.
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220806-lanw22bog
I have never quite understood the inner workings of LATAM. Is it a Chilean based crew flying the 787 from MIA to BOG?
dcajet wrote:DCA350 wrote:dcajet wrote:Eff 1NOV, LATAM Colombia returns to the Bogota - Miami route, daily with A320, increasing to 11x week eff 1FEB23. LATAM Colombia last flew on this route in SEP2019.
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220806-lanw22bog
I have never quite understood the inner workings of LATAM. Is it a Chilean based crew flying the 787 from MIA to BOG?
It is a LATAM Chile flight, operated by a Santiago-based crew on the SCL-BOG-MIA route, with 5th freedom traffic rights on the BOG-MIA sector.
jfk777 wrote:What about flights to Miami and New York, Avianca is turning into a no food airline on 4 to 6 hour flights. Ouch. What would Julio Mario Santo Domingo say if he was alive.
3D101CA wrote:Low cost carriers really are making a dent in full service carriers. Only way to really compete is to lower costs now. Avianca is just an example of this.
When you flood a market with low cost carriers, things turn bad for full service airlines sometimes.
santi319 wrote:jfk777 wrote:What about flights to Miami and New York, Avianca is turning into a no food airline on 4 to 6 hour flights. Ouch. What would Julio Mario Santo Domingo say if he was alive.
Nothing, the passengers have spoken. If you want to have legroom and a 3 course meal, you can still have it. Its called first class and you must pay for it.
The airlines didn’t suddenly “change everything” the market responded because they chose airlines like Spirit and Viva over Avianca for example.
usflyer msp wrote:santi319 wrote:jfk777 wrote:What about flights to Miami and New York, Avianca is turning into a no food airline on 4 to 6 hour flights. Ouch. What would Julio Mario Santo Domingo say if he was alive.
Nothing, the passengers have spoken. If you want to have legroom and a 3 course meal, you can still have it. Its called first class and you must pay for it.
The airlines didn’t suddenly “change everything” the market responded because they chose airlines like Spirit and Viva over Avianca for example.
AV doesn't even have a Premium cabin for you to purchase.
santi319 wrote:usflyer msp wrote:santi319 wrote:Nothing, the passengers have spoken. If you want to have legroom and a 3 course meal, you can still have it. Its called first class and you must pay for it.
The airlines didn’t suddenly “change everything” the market responded because they chose airlines like Spirit and Viva over Avianca for example.
AV doesn't even have a Premium cabin for you to purchase.
It shows different in their webite, and I did some dummy bookings and still showed a premium option with free bags and larger seats for more $ , do you know something I don’t? :
https://www.avianca.com/us/en/about-us/ ... y-economy/
stewartg wrote:3D101CA wrote:Low cost carriers really are making a dent in full service carriers. Only way to really compete is to lower costs now. Avianca is just an example of this.
When you flood a market with low cost carriers, things turn bad for full service airlines sometimes.
Isnt being a LCC about the whole backbone structure? not just the final product and service? I mean, AV is trying to portray themselves as a LCC but they are still a legacy carrier in their corporate structure. Or is it just a race to the bottom, service-wise?
dcajet wrote:Some Lufthansa changes at BOG for the upcoming NS 2023 schedule:
* Frankfurt – Bogota 26MAR23 – 01JUL23 Reduce from 7 to 5 weekly, A340-300 (A340-600 replaces -300 from 05JUN23)
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221215-lhns23inc
720B wrote:AVIANCA / ITA AIRWAYS BEGINS CODESHARE PARTNERSHIP IN NW22
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221026-a ... ?rq=bogota
Avianca operated by ITA Airways
London Heathrow – Rome
ITA Airways operated by Avianca
Miami – Bogota
Miami – Cali
Miami – Medellin
dcajet wrote:Some Lufthansa changes at BOG for the upcoming NS 2023 schedule:
* Frankfurt – Bogota 26MAR23 – 01JUL23 Reduce from 7 to 5 weekly, A340-300 (A340-600 replaces -300 from 05JUN23)
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221215-lhns23inc
Chele737 wrote:Effective March 26, Avianca will start A320 service (180 seats config) from Bogota (BOG) to Boston (BOS), Belo Horizonte (CNF), Manaus (MAO) and Tegucigalpa-Comayagua (XPL)
Itinarary to XPL. A320 daily service (180 seats config) to Tegucigalpa-Comayagua (XPL)
*AV100* BOG-XPL 14:00 -16:00 MON/WED/FRI/SUN
*AV254* BOG - XPL 22:05 - 00:05 TUE/THU/SAT
*AV101* XPL-BOG 17:20 - 21:10 MON/WED/FRI/SUN
*AV255* XPL-BOG 01:10- 04:55 TUE/THU/SAT
Itinerary to BOS. A320 (180 seats config) 5X weekly
BOGBOS AV 222 BOG 7:20 – 14:45 BOS MON / FRI
AV 226 BOG 14:00 – 21:25 BOS TUE / SAT
AV 228 BOG 23:10 – 06:35 (+1) BOS WED
BOSBOG AV 223 BOS 00:05 – 05:10 BOG TUE / SUN
AV 227 BOS 16:05 – 21:10 BOG MON / FRI
AV 229 BOS 08:00 – 06:05 BOG THU
Itinerary to MAO A320 (180 seats config)
BOGMAO AV 81 BOG 22:30 – 2:25 (+1) MON/WED/FRI/SUN
MAOBOG AV 82 MAO 3:30 – 5:25 MON/WED/FRI/SUN .
Itinerary to CNF A320 (180 seats config)
BOGCNF AV 111 BOG 7:20 – 15:30 CNF WED / SUN
AV 117 BOG 22:30 – 6:40 (+1) CNF MON / FRI
AV 123 BOG 14:00 – 22:10 CNF THU
CNFBOG AV 112 CNF 17:25 – 21:10 BOG WED / SUN
AV 118 CNF 09:05 – 12:50 BOG TUE / SAT
AV 122 CNF 1:25 – 5:10 BOG FRI
Source (in Spanish only): https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/12/av ... del%202022.
3D101CA wrote:Is AV not going to resuming BOG-Munich in the future? The route was cut some point before the pandemic or something.
Maybe there is chance for LH to launch MUC-BOG with the A350 perhaps if AV doesn't bring the route back.
DCA350 wrote:3D101CA wrote:Is AV not going to resuming BOG-Munich in the future? The route was cut some point before the pandemic or something.
Maybe there is chance for LH to launch MUC-BOG with the A350 perhaps if AV doesn't bring the route back.
LH just cut back FRA-BOG to less than daily.. IB has saturated the market with a planned increase to 21 weekly flights.. I imagine they are also getting a big chunk of European connections from Colombia.. I don't think there is enough demand for LH to add a flight to MUC.. Especially on an A350.. The best chance is for AV to relaunch the route, which could happen down the line..
DCA350 wrote:dcajet wrote:Some Lufthansa changes at BOG for the upcoming NS 2023 schedule:
* Frankfurt – Bogota 26MAR23 – 01JUL23 Reduce from 7 to 5 weekly, A340-300 (A340-600 replaces -300 from 05JUN23)
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221215-lhns23inc
Wow, I thought that was a healthy route but there is a lot of competition flying between BOG and Europe.. Probably number 3 on the continent after GRU and EZE
DCA350 wrote:Chele737 wrote:Effective March 26, Avianca will start A320 service (180 seats config) from Bogota (BOG) to Boston (BOS), Belo Horizonte (CNF), Manaus (MAO) and Tegucigalpa-Comayagua (XPL)
Boston is such a weird market for Latin American Carriers.. Copa which is booming in NYC and DC with 3+ flights a day part of the year, can't even operate BOS daily year round.. AV previously flew to BOS but dropped the route pre COVID.. Maybe this time it can stick..
RCS763AV wrote:DCA350 wrote:3D101CA wrote:Is AV not going to resuming BOG-Munich in the future? The route was cut some point before the pandemic or something.
Maybe there is chance for LH to launch MUC-BOG with the A350 perhaps if AV doesn't bring the route back.
LH just cut back FRA-BOG to less than daily.. IB has saturated the market with a planned increase to 21 weekly flights.. I imagine they are also getting a big chunk of European connections from Colombia.. I don't think there is enough demand for LH to add a flight to MUC.. Especially on an A350.. The best chance is for AV to relaunch the route, which could happen down the line..DCA350 wrote:dcajet wrote:Some Lufthansa changes at BOG for the upcoming NS 2023 schedule:
* Frankfurt – Bogota 26MAR23 – 01JUL23 Reduce from 7 to 5 weekly, A340-300 (A340-600 replaces -300 from 05JUN23)
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221215-lhns23inc
Wow, I thought that was a healthy route but there is a lot of competition flying between BOG and Europe.. Probably number 3 on the continent after GRU and EZE
BOG-FRA is a healthy route. LH has seldom been flying daily since lockdown, even though it shows up like daily in their official schedule. The A340-600 comes back not only to offer more capacity but to cater for the cargo market, which is a big part of business in BOG. This is an actual upgrade in capacity and it brings first class back on the route, the only offering form Colombia to Europe.
And IB has not saturated the market, it is only responding to increased demand, as is AV with their seasonal extra frequencies to Spain. Flights are going out with load factors in the vincinity of 90%. AF is also upgrading BOG-CDG to the A350-900, adding 15% more seats per flight, and changing its arrival to an earlier hour to allow for domestic connections to the main colombian cities.
The explanation is simple: BOG is turning into a massive LatAm-Europe connecting hub. How do you think PTY (the entire country has less than half the population of the BOG metro area) sustains all of those daily flights to Europe? Efficient connections with attractive fares. The difference is BOG has actual O/D demand. It has entered into a virtous circle situation, increasingly becoming what GRU is for the southern cone: strong O/D traffic which sustains the back and front of the plane, privileged geographical position for distribution and good connection opportunities that end up sustaining extra capacity, all of which translates into increased economies of scale.
By the way good news on AV's new routes. They cater mainly to connecting traffic, making the hub less reliant on O/D, in expectation for next year (the colombian peso keeps tanking and the economy is expected to have mediocre growth in 2023, combined with the removal of the VAT tax exemption that air fares got in the pandemic, increasing VAT from 5% to 19%).
B752OS wrote:DCA350 wrote:Chele737 wrote:Effective March 26, Avianca will start A320 service (180 seats config) from Bogota (BOG) to Boston (BOS), Belo Horizonte (CNF), Manaus (MAO) and Tegucigalpa-Comayagua (XPL)
Boston is such a weird market for Latin American Carriers.. Copa which is booming in NYC and DC with 3+ flights a day part of the year, can't even operate BOS daily year round.. AV previously flew to BOS but dropped the route pre COVID.. Maybe this time it can stick..
While I am sure the market between DC and Panama is larger than Boston, doesn't CM feed pax through IAD to/from UA flights? Could that be why they have upwards of 3 daily flights at certain times of the year?
This will be the second non-stop service BOS has to South America.
DCA350 wrote:B752OS wrote:DCA350 wrote:
While I am sure the market between DC and Panama is larger than Boston, doesn't CM feed pax through IAD to/from UA flights? Could that be why they have upwards of 3 daily flights at certain times of the year?
This will be the second non-stop service BOS has to South America.
I'm sure IAD has some connecting traffic that plays a factor. But for such a big metro, BOS just doesn't seem to have consistent demand to Latin America like some other NE cities.. However between LATAM with GRU, Copa with PTY, and now AV with BOG, the market should be pretty well covered even if all three flights will be less than daily.