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NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:36 am

I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM

International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:21 am

NZ6 wrote:
Then we've got to look at the NZ labor market and where long-haul travel crew requirement is at in NZ. We've got record low unemployment and long-haul requirement is ex our biggest city where the cost of living is much higher then elsewhere in NZ.

There's no shortage of willing applicants from what I understand. The trouble is being selective and getting the right candidates in a tight labor market who're also able to live in AKL on the wages and conditions available.


Which does make me wonder in the next 5-10 years how much NZ will branch out of AKL? Could see an CHC long-haul base with more long haul services ex CHC in the next 5-10 years?

The cost of living bubble in Auckland is going to break at some point in the near feature. Surely we will see more growth in other parts of the country, shift the demand of we’re some capacity is needed?
 
tom90
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:12 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:40 am

NZ516 wrote:
I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM

International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC


I understand the schedule will pick up more from early July in line to the school holidays, and ZQN will be starting trans-tasman again with AirNZ so maybe a pick up in utilization then
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9427
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:05 am

zkncj wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Then we've got to look at the NZ labor market and where long-haul travel crew requirement is at in NZ. We've got record low unemployment and long-haul requirement is ex our biggest city where the cost of living is much higher then elsewhere in NZ.

There's no shortage of willing applicants from what I understand. The trouble is being selective and getting the right candidates in a tight labor market who're also able to live in AKL on the wages and conditions available.


Which does make me wonder in the next 5-10 years how much NZ will branch out of AKL? Could see an CHC long-haul base with more long haul services ex CHC in the next 5-10 years?

The cost of living bubble in Auckland is going to break at some point in the near feature. Surely we will see more growth in other parts of the country, shift the demand of we’re some capacity is needed?


The thing is AKL will always have demand due to its size and Being NZ’s only long haul hub. Most if not all International to International connections will be through AKL. NZ will look in the longer term further diversify the network particularly in North America think YYZ, DEN, , not sure we will see any new destinations for a while though after JFK as they look to grow back to what they had pre covid, also rely more on alliance partners for seasonal capacity increases like AC/UA.

CHC might get PER/SIN back, beyond that maybe LAX, back in the day inbound from Japan stopped there as an entry point to NZ but realistically I think NZ with a Tourist VFR route like that would run 2 daily ex AKL to NRT.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:21 am

If crewing (staffing) is such an issue with restarting up NZ’s network, due to the low unemployment rate in New Zealand.

Would it be too outrageous for NZ to outsource to oversea based contract crew? After all NZ proving flights to New Zealand is going to be an major benefit tot he tourism industry which benefits the economy.

Would offshore based crew cause too much of an up raw? I know NZ has had PVG and LHR based crew in the past but they were for just two routes.

I don’t see how different to to the 9/10 consumer products i your home that are made in Asia. Effectively it’s an International flight so working outside of NZ. Really the same logic that went into the labour that probably made the tee shirt you are wearing now.

I do wonder if NZ needs to create an off shoot airline, to make the most of overseas labour to help New Zealand get reconnected.
 
ZKNHF
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:49 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 am

NZ801 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
PA515 wrote:

Don't know that they necessarily need A321s for domestic ASAP, just that this is where they are choosing to put the first two.

Have also done a sample of the Air NZ Domestic AT7 and DH3 schedule for the week 03-09 Oct 2022.
Mo to Fr -- 25 of the 29 ATRs
Sa -- 26 of the 29 ATRs
Su -- 24 of the 29 ATRs

Mo to Fr -- 21 of the 23 Q300s
Sa -- 19 of the 23 Q300s
Su -- 20 of the 23 Q300s

This is based on 30 min turnarounds at AKL, WLG and CHC. In two instances a 25 min turnaround during the day would mean one less ATR utilised. So there is a lot of slack in the schedule. Also, there are five CHC-WLG and WLG-CHC 320 flights Mo to Fr, two CHC-WLG and one WLG-CHC 320 Sa, and four CHC-WLG and five WLG-CHC 320 Su. The Sat 320 reduction is partly offset by extra ATR flights, which is why an extra ATR is used on Sa. Air NZ is using a 320 CHC-WLG / WLG-CHC to replace ATR flights.

PA515


That's a good list PA515, so there is a lot of slack in the ATR and Q300 fleet at the moment and they could reinstate more flights easily. Or even open new routes there was a rumour that there might be a new service to Nelson a while back.


Have been thinking about new routes as I was talking with someone who went PMR-CHC-ROT to get from PMR to ROT. They are probably too thin for NZ to look at but even something like NPL-NPE. It’s crazy the amount go back tracking and crazy routings some people have to do but I guess that’s the reality of a small and dispersed pop (outside of AKL.) and a biggish land.


NPL-NPE would have an interesting route. As there aren’t many airways running east west over the North Island, or much of NZ. It could also be a pain for ATR traffic avoidance as they’d need to be pretty high to keep clear of Ruapehu. Unlike the CHC-HKK mountain skimming flights.
 
a7ala
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:45 pm

zkncj wrote:
If crewing (staffing) is such an issue with restarting up NZ’s network, due to the low unemployment rate in New Zealand.

Would it be too outrageous for NZ to outsource to oversea based contract crew? After all NZ proving flights to New Zealand is going to be an major benefit tot he tourism industry which benefits the economy.

Would offshore based crew cause too much of an up raw? I know NZ has had PVG and LHR based crew in the past but they were for just two routes.

I don’t see how different to to the 9/10 consumer products i your home that are made in Asia. Effectively it’s an International flight so working outside of NZ. Really the same logic that went into the labour that probably made the tee shirt you are wearing now.

I do wonder if NZ needs to create an off shoot airline, to make the most of overseas labour to help New Zealand get reconnected.


Im not sure if you are aware but crew shortages are a global thing... there just isnt the offshore crew to outsource.
 
a7ala
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:47 pm

tom90 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM

International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC


I understand the schedule will pick up more from early July in line to the school holidays, and ZQN will be starting trans-tasman again with AirNZ so maybe a pick up in utilization then


Correct. eg. WLG international flying with Air NZ more than doubles from July with daily SYD/BNE, 4pw MEL and 3pw NAN seasonal recommencing. Its not just a school holiday thing, as these schedules run through until NW22 which we dont have any visibility of yet.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:39 pm

tom90 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM

International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC


I understand the schedule will pick up more from early July in line to the school holidays, and ZQN will be starting trans-tasman again with AirNZ so maybe a pick up in utilization then


I will check again in a week to see how much it has picked up with ZQN international starting.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:47 pm

a7ala wrote:
zkncj wrote:
If crewing (staffing) is such an issue with restarting up NZ’s network, due to the low unemployment rate in New Zealand.

Would it be too outrageous for NZ to outsource to oversea based contract crew? After all NZ proving flights to New Zealand is going to be an major benefit tot he tourism industry which benefits the economy.

Would offshore based crew cause too much of an up raw? I know NZ has had PVG and LHR based crew in the past but they were for just two routes.

I don’t see how different to to the 9/10 consumer products i your home that are made in Asia. Effectively it’s an International flight so working outside of NZ. Really the same logic that went into the labour that probably made the tee shirt you are wearing now.

I do wonder if NZ needs to create an off shoot airline, to make the most of overseas labour to help New Zealand get reconnected.


Im not sure if you are aware but crew shortages are a global thing... there just isnt the offshore crew to outsource.


Jetstar uses Indonesian cabin crew. They start a DPS-CNS then a domestic sector return eg CNS-SYD-CNS then return home. They have used international crew members to operate many domestic Australian flights pre Covid. They are paid a lot lower than the Australian rates.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:51 pm

ZKNHF wrote:
NZ801 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

That's a good list PA515, so there is a lot of slack in the ATR and Q300 fleet at the moment and they could reinstate more flights easily. Or even open new routes there was a rumour that there might be a new service to Nelson a while back.


Have been thinking about new routes as I was talking with someone who went PMR-CHC-ROT to get from PMR to ROT. They are probably too thin for NZ to look at but even something like NPL-NPE. It’s crazy the amount go back tracking and crazy routings some people have to do but I guess that’s the reality of a small and dispersed pop (outside of AKL.) and a biggish land.


NPL-NPE would have an interesting route. As there aren’t many airways running east west over the North Island, or much of NZ. It could also be a pain for ATR traffic avoidance as they’d need to be pretty high to keep clear of Ruapehu. Unlike the CHC-HKK mountain skimming flights.


NPL-NPE was tried before with Originair but it didn't last long they started the flight from Nelson demand might be too low.
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:43 pm

Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?
 
PA515
Posts: 1788
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:34 pm

This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb

PA515
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:23 am

PA515 wrote:
This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb

PA515


Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:48 am

mrkerr7474 wrote:
PA515 wrote:
This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb

PA515


Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?


Commons things like faulty APU, to things like on board raft has gone non serviceable.

I flown MEL-AKL on a NZ a320 with an faulty APU before that had to route via NLK (without landing).

There are some parts, aircraft allowed to depart to be depart with non serviceable.

Definitely had an few domestic flights on NZ were the APU was non serviceable. Which required additional paperwork, and start with an ground power unit.
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:22 am

zkncj wrote:
mrkerr7474 wrote:
PA515 wrote:
This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb

PA515


Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?


Commons things like faulty APU, to things like on board raft has gone non serviceable.

I flown MEL-AKL on a NZ a320 with an faulty APU before that had to route via NLK (without landing).

There are some parts, aircraft allowed to depart to be depart with non serviceable.

Definitely had an few domestic flights on NZ were the APU was non serviceable. Which required additional paperwork, and start with an ground power unit.


Thank you for the response and info, learn something new everyday.

Would have been a bit of a longer trip to get to MEL that's for sure
 
anstar
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:22 am

NZ801 wrote:
anstar wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Or perhaps the reason is as much that the carrier is short of aircraft and crews to take on additional routes.


Given the poor conditions new crew are on I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case.


“Poor conditions” What evidence do you have to support this claim?


Well I wouldn't call the starting salary great conditions would you?
 
NZ801
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:54 am

anstar wrote:
NZ801 wrote:
anstar wrote:

Given the poor conditions new crew are on I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case.


“Poor conditions” What evidence do you have to support this claim?


Well I wouldn't call the starting salary great conditions would you?


You’re the one making the claim. I just want to know what evidence you have to support it.
 
User avatar
Kiwings
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:01 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:32 am

Pay is not great....even crew with a lot of seniority before covid and made redundant have come back on new contract at min wage - $21.50 per hour and overtime once duty hits 12 (I think) hours. I understand that Air NZ are already struggling to get crew and I would think a lot of younger crew attracted by the perceived glamour will leave fairly quickly. It does seem short sighted to think that min rate will attract crew.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:40 am

Kiwings wrote:
Pay is not great....even crew with a lot of seniority before covid and made redundant have come back on new contract at min wage - $21.50 per hour and overtime once duty hits 12 (I think) hours. I understand that Air NZ are already struggling to get crew and I would think a lot of younger crew attracted by the perceived glamour will leave fairly quickly. It does seem short sighted to think that min rate will attract crew.


$21.50/hr? That has to be plus allowances right?

I know some teenagers, who are currently getting $26-27/hr working an Bunnings.

Even I think Countdown pays more than that.
 
NZ6
Posts: 2234
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:42 pm

zkncj wrote:
Kiwings wrote:
Pay is not great....even crew with a lot of seniority before covid and made redundant have come back on new contract at min wage - $21.50 per hour and overtime once duty hits 12 (I think) hours. I understand that Air NZ are already struggling to get crew and I would think a lot of younger crew attracted by the perceived glamour will leave fairly quickly. It does seem short sighted to think that min rate will attract crew.


$21.50/hr? That has to be plus allowances right?

I know some teenagers, who are currently getting $26-27/hr working an Bunnings.

Even I think Countdown pays more than that.


I don't know what they get paid but I was once told regional cabin crew were on the lowest, this was a long time ago when I got talking with one based in AKL. They required an accommodation allowance from Work & Income. But this was at least 10+ years ago now and I've got no idea how or if this has changed.

Minimum wage in NZ is $21.20 so I'd question if they're only paying $0.30 above that. Allowances wouldn't be huge either, weekend and public holiday hours only I'd imagine for regional crew. Long haul a bit more including things like meal allowances etc.

What I would say is read the job description. If it wasn't the national carrier and wasn't an aircraft you'd read it an accept it wouldn't pay well. It's like being an usher at the movies. You'd employ students to do it because almost anyone could and it's cheaper. Respectfully it's hard to demand high wages like this isn't it?

https://jobs.airnewzealand.co.nz/blob/F ... ts56lg&v=3

I just want to add, the comment above is with full respect to hard working cabin crew, those that love it, do it well and do an amazing job. I'm sure the job has changed over the years, it wasn't so long ago you'd fly international on NZ, 767's lunchtime departure to Asia with no seat back IFE, or the 4pm to LAX with only main-screen entertainment. The boredom of passengers back then vs today must be noticeable. Now good carriers have oodles of personal entertainment but we've also got laptops tablets and phones with content to occupy us and the internet is becoming more and more assessable which further adding to the supply of distraction.
 
PA515
Posts: 1788
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:51 pm

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?


Apparently it was an issue with an "engine driven pump filler". Don't know what that is, but there's a Stuff article today.

https://stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troub ... 0km-detour

PA515
 
NZ801
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:53 pm

The comment was made that conditions were poor and I was just seeking evidence to support that claim. Yep the pay is not great but it’s not the glamour days of old. I’d like to know what else the poster was referring to re poor conditions. I know of a few who are just starting as crew and are very happy. Money isn’t everything and you’ve got to start somewhere.
 
NZ6
Posts: 2234
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:52 pm

NZ801 wrote:
The comment was made that conditions were poor and I was just seeking evidence to support that claim. Yep the pay is not great but it’s not the glamour days of old. I’d like to know what else the poster was referring to re poor conditions. I know of a few who are just starting as crew and are very happy. Money isn’t everything and you’ve got to start somewhere.


They're not poor conditions mate, it's a simple case of the 'perks' not being as good as they once were. That makes today's conditions poor somehow?!?

I know a few crew (international crew), most are very happy. Mainly because they love what they do.

You go into a job knowing what it pays but sorry if don't get 4 days in LAX, 2 nights in Fiji etc.
 
lowesrus
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:22 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:48 pm

The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.

Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).

For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.

48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.

Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.

Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.

Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.

Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:57 am

I see that Thai airways are back serving the AKL to BKK route. The same flight number as before TG492 there was a post about it recently on here:

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/06/ ... y.html?m=0
 
NZ6
Posts: 2234
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:20 am

lowesrus wrote:
The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.

Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).

For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.

48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.

Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.

Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.

Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.

Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.


I find it really interesting. Please correct me if I'm miles off the mark here. Regional crew base pay is similar but they don't get those meal allowances. Yet the job isn't all that much different? Yes you prepare and serve meals, but after all you are being paid to "work" so arguably you should be doing something. Yes you're away from home longer but a large potion of crew work towards long-haul for that international experience? So it's selective and by many is a perk they want.

The $336NZD value for SIN equates to around $290SGD. Given you'll arrive in SIN at 0640 you'll be feed and tired so you'd likely do one of two things. Have a short sleep then early night, or stay up and go to bed early. Either way you're looking at lunch and dinner, maybe a bite to eat for breakfast. It's not $300 worth of meals is it.

But to the same argument crew have always taken dry non perishable goods with them and have pocketed as much as they can so one can argue that using that money for your expenses up there is elective and if you use it all you must be dining in restaurants. With this in mind has the airline factored this into their base salary?

As for using allowances as income; this is a issue which effects many people, those on commission for example but yes I admit this is a major issue. I wonder, if allowances were dropped and built into a salary would this be beneficial or would you be worse off after paying income tax etc?

As for being on standby - this isn't new is it? hasn't this always been an issue. I thought there was a small allowance for this and higher allowances if called in. I guess it goes back to my comment above. In this scenario you're not actually doing anything. You just need to be able to come in on a set notice. If this was build into a salary would you see less personal downtime and crew rotations tightened to avoid having X number of people on standby, or would you be used on services with shrinkage built into a sectors crewing. I'm thinking about an impact on work / life balance.

If you were on SIN twice a week for 40 weeks of the year, that's an extra $26,880 which is tax free. So working the other way, so your $42K + $38,500 (tax inclusive) = $80,500

That $80K is dam good, with all respect, I think if we aligned the tasks and skills to a ground position the pay would be much higher for crew wouldn't it? I mean, teachers, nurses, fire and emergency are recent careers who've been in the media around pay conditions. That figure is well above those industries.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9427
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:35 am

NZ516 wrote:
I see that Thai airways are back serving the AKL to BKK route. The same flight number as before TG492 there was a post about it recently on here:

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/06/ ... y.html?m=0


TG don’t have a regular schedule from AKL, just one offs. Nothing on when they resume regular services yet.
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:30 am

ZKNCJ. The $21.50 figure is base pay (Some one has kindly worked it out). The allowances are on top of that which are untaxed as well. So the take home does add up to more than a 'normal' job on say $25-$26 an hour. Obviously your exact take home depends on how much you fly, your fleet, trips, layover etc... Think of allowances as incentive or productivity pay. No work = No allowances, and vice versa
 
NZCH
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:30 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:12 am

PA515 wrote:
mrkerr7474 wrote:
Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?


Apparently it was an issue with an "engine driven pump filler". Don't know what that is, but there's a Stuff article today.

https://stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troub ... 0km-detour



PA515



Hi all, long time reader to this thread. Felt for once I could have something relevant to add.

The QF 737, ex WLG with the issue earlier in the week was a result of EDP hydraulic leak that was out of limits, discovered during the transit check on turnaround at WLG by the LAME (a family member of mine). Subsequently the aircraft required an EA, Engineering Authority to fly. Pretty much an MEL applied to the tech log. Reason for following day departure was that the flight crew would of exceeded their hours due on the day, due to the required EDTO 60 deviation to the flight path. In turn, Crew overnighted to then take the flight the next morning.

Regards

NZCH
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:56 pm

Air NZ has hired back a lot of staff since the pandemic with 3 out of every 4 replaced so far. They are still looking for more people and this incentive should help get more to join.
But their international network is well down from what it was previously this will take more time to recover.

Air New Zealand slashed 4000 jobs during the pandemic, but has since hired 3000 staff and is trying to recruit a further 1100 over the next few months.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indust ... vid-exodus
 
lowesrus
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:22 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:29 pm

NZ6 wrote:
lowesrus wrote:
The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.

Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).

For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.

48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.

Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.

Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.

Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.

Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.


I find it really interesting. Please correct me if I'm miles off the mark here. Regional crew base pay is similar but they don't get those meal allowances. Yet the job isn't all that much different? Yes you prepare and serve meals, but after all you are being paid to "work" so arguably you should be doing something. Yes you're away from home longer but a large potion of crew work towards long-haul for that international experience? So it's selective and by many is a perk they want.

The $336NZD value for SIN equates to around $290SGD. Given you'll arrive in SIN at 0640 you'll be feed and tired so you'd likely do one of two things. Have a short sleep then early night, or stay up and go to bed early. Either way you're looking at lunch and dinner, maybe a bite to eat for breakfast. It's not $300 worth of meals is it.

But to the same argument crew have always taken dry non perishable goods with them and have pocketed as much as they can so one can argue that using that money for your expenses up there is elective and if you use it all you must be dining in restaurants. With this in mind has the airline factored this into their base salary?

As for using allowances as income; this is a issue which effects many people, those on commission for example but yes I admit this is a major issue. I wonder, if allowances were dropped and built into a salary would this be beneficial or would you be worse off after paying income tax etc.?

As for being on standby - this isn't new is it? hasn't this always been an issue. I thought there was a small allowance for this and higher allowances if called in. I guess it goes back to my comment above. In this scenario you're not actually doing anything. You just need to be able to come in on a set notice. If this was build into a salary would you see less personal downtime and crew rotations tightened to avoid having X number of people on standby, or would you be used on services with shrinkage built into a sectors crewing. I'm thinking about an impact on work / life balance.

If you were on SIN twice a week for 40 weeks of the year, that's an extra $26,880 which is tax free. So working the other way, so your $42K + $38,500 (tax inclusive) = $80,500

That $80K is dam good, with all respect, I think if we aligned the tasks and skills to a ground position the pay would be much higher for crew wouldn't it? I mean, teachers, nurses, fire and emergency are recent careers who've been in the media around pay conditions. That figure is well above those industries.


Regional crew are still divided per fleet. ATR and Q300. Unfortunately the Q300 contact is not very strong and definitely needs a salary increase. They work the hardest out of any fleet.

I can only speak for the ATR as I previously was employed under this contact. They have only just ratified their salary to minimum wage, and allowances have been raised. They work through a different structure, being meal bands i.e Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner and then a subsequent overnight allowance if that is in the duty. Their allowance structure was modelled off the old Mount Cook contract of the early 2000s. You only get the allowances if you work through the meal bands, e.g sign on in your base before 0700 you'd receive a breakfast allowance. Operating/signing on between 1100-1300 entitles you to Lunch allowance. Operating/Signing on from 1800 entitles you to Dinner. If you're overnighting, you do not receive a breakfast allowance as breakfast is provided at the hotel.

Depending on your roster, you could earn a healthy amount on allowances prior to 2018. During 2018/2019 they opened several new ATR bases including WLG, NPE, TRG and NSN to reduce the overnight costs for crew. Operations also rescheduled a lot of flights to sign-on just after Breakfast or lunch to avoid receiving the allowances. Same goes for rescheduling flights so sign off was just before Lunch or Dinner. Rosters for AKL based crew, involve a lot of day flying and no overnights however this does change depending on crew levels at each base.

As I said, the allowances aren't bad. You can definitely live off it, as majority of crew did and stayed with the company.

You're right, in respect to your comment about crew taking their own food in ports as majority of places let crew do this. However it all stems back to the salary being so low, that crew wanting to save money for a house etc, this would be the only way to do so. Ultimately locking them selves in their room for the layover.

No, standby isn't new, and yes some airlines offer a standby hourly rate, however 787/777 crew did not receive this. Hence why in negotiations, the main objective is a substantial salary increase and no change in allowance amounts.

After any NRT/SIN/HKG/TPE/ICN/PVG, you were rostered 72 hours clear. Any North American duty (excl. ORD), you had 3 full days clear. This could be reduced down to double the flight time back to AKL, if you wanted to pick up another duty. ORD had 5 days clear after. So ultimately, you could pick up back to back duties, however fatigue would be very apparent and more often than not, the swap system would deny the change. There were also maximum duty hours you could do in 48 hours, 72 hours and 28 days (The roster length).

Yes, as your figures suggest you could receive that amount, however pre 2020, crew were receiving 2 months of standby (sometimes 3 for on board managers) a year as there was a surplus of crew vs flights due to 787 issues and seasonable schedules. Factor in AUS and pacific island returns (incl. PPT which you had to receive 2 days clear after). Recurrency training, Security training, First Aid training + 6 weeks annual leave which you had to take and couldn't accrue, the amount would drop.

Like I said it's livable, and the appeal is definitely there for young adults. It's not bad, it's just not good either :)
 
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YMHBSpotting
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:04 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:18 am

Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?
 
ZKNHF
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:49 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:58 am

YMHBSpotting wrote:
Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?


Just 1, ZK-OJM
 
ZKNHF
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:49 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:00 am

Does anyone know what OAB is up to? Currently over Hamilton Island inbound to Cairns as NZ6001.

Is it off for some heavy maintenance or paint work maybe?
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:38 am

ZKNHF wrote:
Does anyone know what OAB is up to? Currently over Hamilton Island inbound to Cairns as NZ6001.

Is it off for some heavy maintenance or paint work maybe?


Maybe exiting the fleet? with the new domestic A321N's arriving soon.

NZ uses Flying Colours Aviation in Townsville for repainting its short-haul fleet, CNS is likely an customs stop.

Or could be going onto Singapore for some work to be done?
 
User avatar
YMHBSpotting
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:04 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:40 am

ZKNHF wrote:
YMHBSpotting wrote:
Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?


Just 1, ZK-OJM


Oh ok, is there any timeframe for its replacement?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9427
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:56 am

YMHBSpotting wrote:
ZKNHF wrote:
YMHBSpotting wrote:
Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?


Just 1, ZK-OJM


Oh ok, is there any timeframe for its replacement?


10th July is an A321, 17 is an A320NEO, bit of a mixed bag.

OJM should be gone around the end of the year.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:57 am

The more I read about aviation worker pay and conditions, the more sympathy I have for them. And in the New Zealand context of abysmally low wages, extremely high and accelerating costs of living and a weak super/tax incrntive system.. just atrocious for anyone over 27.

Do the allowances accrue to Kiwisaver as well or is that calculated on base? What happens during annual, sick, bereavement leave? Sick leave being pertinent because flight crew are on the front line of infection. Presumably all based on their base salary rather than all inclusive?

If I'm paying $800 return for Tasman flights that used to be $400, I'd hope the crew were seeing some of that.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9427
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:57 am

[twoid][/twoid]
zkncj wrote:
ZKNHF wrote:
Does anyone know what OAB is up to? Currently over Hamilton Island inbound to Cairns as NZ6001.

Is it off for some heavy maintenance or paint work maybe?


Maybe exiting the fleet? with the new domestic A321N's arriving soon.

NZ uses Flying Colours Aviation in Townsville for repainting its short-haul fleet, CNS is likely an customs stop.

Or could be going onto Singapore for some work to be done?


SIN for maintenance reading around
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:58 am

lowesrus wrote:
The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.

Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).

For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.

48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.

Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.

Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.

Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.

Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.


$336NZD in Singapore would go very far, if your only there for 24hrs.

For $30-50NZD you eat pretty well by Singapore standards for breakfast, lunch, dinner all together.

The crew I knew who worked on the 789 fleet pre-covid (ironically have chosen not to go back flying). Where more than happy to have dinner at an Hawker Centre in Singapore.

Singapore is really cheap, if you eat and live like an local.

Maybe if you sat in your hotel room, and just ordered room service you would chew up your allowance.

Think that would be the same for most Asian ports that NZ serves.

PVG would probably be the most culturally challenging.
 
NZCH
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:30 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:02 am

NZCH wrote:
PA515 wrote:
mrkerr7474 wrote:
Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?


Apparently it was an issue with an "engine driven pump filler". Don't know what that is, but there's a Stuff article today.

https://stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troub ... 0km-detour



PA515



Hi all, long time reader to this thread. Felt for once I could have something relevant to add.

The QF 737, ex WLG with the issue earlier in the week was a result of EDP hydraulic leak that was out of limits, discovered during the transit check on turnaround at WLG by the LAME (a family member of mine). Subsequently the aircraft required an EA, Engineering Authority to fly. Pretty much an MEL applied to the tech log. Reason for following day departure was that the flight crew would of exceeded their hours due on the day, due to the required EDTO 60 deviation to the flight path. In turn, Crew overnighted to then take the flight the next morning.

Regards

NZCH


Having spoke in person

The aircraft flight operated as a non EDTO flight.

NZCH
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:15 pm

On the Australian thread there was mentioned that Air NZ Tasman load factor is 95% from BITRE data. This is really good for them however it still might not be in profit due to the rapidly rising input costs. I wonder if they will have to add a fuel surcharge to bookings soon. These might be unavoidable now.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:48 pm

NZ516 wrote:
On the Australian thread there was mentioned that Air NZ Tasman load factor is 95% from BITRE data. This is really good for them however it still might not be in profit due to the rapidly rising input costs. I wonder if they will have to add a fuel surcharge to bookings soon. These might be unavoidable now.


The entry level Tasman East Coast fares, have already slipped up to around $300 Seat Only.

I don’t think we will see fuel surcharges come back, it just complicates thing. More likely we will see the long term published fares rise.

When they are selling AKL-East Coast fares up to a couple of weeks out for $600-1000NZD I’m sure they are covering the increase cost of fuel on the Tasman.

Ex AKL you have to book at least 4-6 weeks ahead, to be able to get a seat on NZ. If you don’t want to spend an arm an leg to buy your tickets it more like 6-12 weeks.
 
NPL8800
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:21 pm

Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:33 pm

NPL8800 wrote:
Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/


Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.

They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.

OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.

Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1620
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:50 am

zkncj wrote:
NPL8800 wrote:
Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/


Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.

They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.

OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.

Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.


When they served CHC to KUL they had a pop up stand in the Square offering $199 one way amazing how cheap it was back then.
 
fras444
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:54 am

Interesting reading about Qantas and the extra deviation regarding ETOPS, as you guys may know, I enjoy MSFS and I follow the corresponding forums, a developer has not long released the 737-700 and there is an incredible dude that's a current 737-800 pilot and has provided a wealth of knowledge for those who want to fly exactly like a real world pilot and a subject came up regarding ETOPS...

Formersnail5736
I think you’re a bit confused there with what ETOPS means. The flight characteristics of an ETOPS airplane are identical to a non-etops airplane. Both fly identically on one engine. Most of the ETOPS certification lies in aspects that have nothing to do with the airplane.

For an airline to be able to fly ETOPS, not only the airplane needs to be ETOPS, but also the airline itself, the crew, the operations manual, the training program and many other aspects of the whole operation. ETOPS is basically 95% paperwork. If an airline without ETOPS certification buys a A350, they still cannot plot their routes according to ETOPS. For example, some years ago AirFrance lost the ETOPS180 certif and had to downgrade to ETOPS120 on the 777. The airplane didn’t change. SriLankan Airlines completely lost ETOPS on their a320/321 NEOS. The airplanes didn’t change.

Non-etops only means that the routes must be plotted within the “diversion distance” from adequate aerodromes. The “diversion distance” for non-ETOPS routes is 1 hour at the OEI speed in still air (one engine inoperative). On the 737-800 this distance is 427nm and on the 737-700 it’s 416nm (It doesn’t matter if it’s over the ocean or over Africa).

Within one airplane type, for example the 737, the difference between ETOPS and Non-ETOPS versions is usually about having and extra generator (like the HDG on the 757) or an extra cargo extinguisher bottle (Like on the 737). Since the 737 only has 2 main generators, for ETOPS operation the APU has to be switched on before entering an ETOPS segment (And carry the fuel required for this).

The 737-NG is an ETOPS airplane, provided it has the ETOPS version of the cargo hold fire suppression system with two extinguisher bottles instead of one. The airline I fly for does not have ETOPS certification, yet at least 1/3 of our fleet has the ETOPS cargo fire system. We just don’t need ETOPS approval because we’re always at less than 1h flying at the OEI speed from any proper airport. FlyDubai has ETOPS certification. Their airplane is almost identical but they need ETOPS120. They probably need it to fly straight lines to south of India and Thailand. The main difference you will find in the airplane side is the maintenance program. For example it could be that a non-etops operator has to change the cockpit windows every 5000h while the ETOPS operator must change them every 4000h.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9427
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:09 am

zkncj wrote:
NPL8800 wrote:
Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/


Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.

They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.

OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.

Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.



I would have thought D7 might look at one of SYD/MEL although they probably have less issue filling an A333 than OOL ex KUL.

I’m not sure where Scoot fit in NZ even now tbh. NZ/SQ want the premium marketed AKL and fares are high, CHC seems to do well as is. WLG isn’t coming back anytime soon and it’s not really a Scoot market I don’t think. Would need to be via Australia I think for any NZ service.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:29 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
zkncj wrote:
NPL8800 wrote:
Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/


Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.

They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.

OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.

Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.



I would have thought D7 might look at one of SYD/MEL although they probably have less issue filling an A333 than OOL ex KUL.

I’m not sure where Scoot fit in NZ even now tbh. NZ/SQ want the premium marketed AKL and fares are high, CHC seems to do well as is. WLG isn’t coming back anytime soon and it’s not really a Scoot market I don’t think. Would need to be via Australia I think for any NZ service.


Probably on the biggest downsides on the NZ/SQ joint venture. There is no need for either of them offer anything else.

I’m sure if there was an QF/SQ had an joint venture, we wouldn’t see Scoot in Australia either.

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