Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
NZ6 wrote:Then we've got to look at the NZ labor market and where long-haul travel crew requirement is at in NZ. We've got record low unemployment and long-haul requirement is ex our biggest city where the cost of living is much higher then elsewhere in NZ.
There's no shortage of willing applicants from what I understand. The trouble is being selective and getting the right candidates in a tight labor market who're also able to live in AKL on the wages and conditions available.
NZ516 wrote:I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM
International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC
zkncj wrote:NZ6 wrote:Then we've got to look at the NZ labor market and where long-haul travel crew requirement is at in NZ. We've got record low unemployment and long-haul requirement is ex our biggest city where the cost of living is much higher then elsewhere in NZ.
There's no shortage of willing applicants from what I understand. The trouble is being selective and getting the right candidates in a tight labor market who're also able to live in AKL on the wages and conditions available.
Which does make me wonder in the next 5-10 years how much NZ will branch out of AKL? Could see an CHC long-haul base with more long haul services ex CHC in the next 5-10 years?
The cost of living bubble in Auckland is going to break at some point in the near feature. Surely we will see more growth in other parts of the country, shift the demand of we’re some capacity is needed?
NZ801 wrote:NZ516 wrote:PA515 wrote:
Don't know that they necessarily need A321s for domestic ASAP, just that this is where they are choosing to put the first two.
Have also done a sample of the Air NZ Domestic AT7 and DH3 schedule for the week 03-09 Oct 2022.
Mo to Fr -- 25 of the 29 ATRs
Sa -- 26 of the 29 ATRs
Su -- 24 of the 29 ATRs
Mo to Fr -- 21 of the 23 Q300s
Sa -- 19 of the 23 Q300s
Su -- 20 of the 23 Q300s
This is based on 30 min turnarounds at AKL, WLG and CHC. In two instances a 25 min turnaround during the day would mean one less ATR utilised. So there is a lot of slack in the schedule. Also, there are five CHC-WLG and WLG-CHC 320 flights Mo to Fr, two CHC-WLG and one WLG-CHC 320 Sa, and four CHC-WLG and five WLG-CHC 320 Su. The Sat 320 reduction is partly offset by extra ATR flights, which is why an extra ATR is used on Sa. Air NZ is using a 320 CHC-WLG / WLG-CHC to replace ATR flights.
PA515
That's a good list PA515, so there is a lot of slack in the ATR and Q300 fleet at the moment and they could reinstate more flights easily. Or even open new routes there was a rumour that there might be a new service to Nelson a while back.
Have been thinking about new routes as I was talking with someone who went PMR-CHC-ROT to get from PMR to ROT. They are probably too thin for NZ to look at but even something like NPL-NPE. It’s crazy the amount go back tracking and crazy routings some people have to do but I guess that’s the reality of a small and dispersed pop (outside of AKL.) and a biggish land.
zkncj wrote:If crewing (staffing) is such an issue with restarting up NZ’s network, due to the low unemployment rate in New Zealand.
Would it be too outrageous for NZ to outsource to oversea based contract crew? After all NZ proving flights to New Zealand is going to be an major benefit tot he tourism industry which benefits the economy.
Would offshore based crew cause too much of an up raw? I know NZ has had PVG and LHR based crew in the past but they were for just two routes.
I don’t see how different to to the 9/10 consumer products i your home that are made in Asia. Effectively it’s an International flight so working outside of NZ. Really the same logic that went into the labour that probably made the tee shirt you are wearing now.
I do wonder if NZ needs to create an off shoot airline, to make the most of overseas labour to help New Zealand get reconnected.
tom90 wrote:NZ516 wrote:I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM
International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC
I understand the schedule will pick up more from early July in line to the school holidays, and ZQN will be starting trans-tasman again with AirNZ so maybe a pick up in utilization then
tom90 wrote:NZ516 wrote:I had a close look at the 320 fleet deployed today (Monday) to see what they are up to. What is surprising is so few are flying internationally only 7 operating, with one that overnights in MEL. While 3 International 320s are on domestic flying supplementing the 14 domestic 320s so 24 in total. But that leaves six not flying, Monday could be one of the quietest day of the week.
First flights out of each port by type of flying.
Domestic fleet
AK L DOM- OXI, OXG, OJS, OJR, OXC, OAB, OJQ,
WLG DOM- OXA, OXK, OXD
CHC DOM- OXF
DUD DOM- OXE
ZQN DOM- OXJ, OXM
International fleet
AKL DOM - NHD
CHC DOM - NHB
WLG DOM- NHC
AKL INT- NNG, NNB, NNA
CHC INT- NHE, NHA
WLG INT - NHC
MEL INT - NNC
I understand the schedule will pick up more from early July in line to the school holidays, and ZQN will be starting trans-tasman again with AirNZ so maybe a pick up in utilization then
a7ala wrote:zkncj wrote:If crewing (staffing) is such an issue with restarting up NZ’s network, due to the low unemployment rate in New Zealand.
Would it be too outrageous for NZ to outsource to oversea based contract crew? After all NZ proving flights to New Zealand is going to be an major benefit tot he tourism industry which benefits the economy.
Would offshore based crew cause too much of an up raw? I know NZ has had PVG and LHR based crew in the past but they were for just two routes.
I don’t see how different to to the 9/10 consumer products i your home that are made in Asia. Effectively it’s an International flight so working outside of NZ. Really the same logic that went into the labour that probably made the tee shirt you are wearing now.
I do wonder if NZ needs to create an off shoot airline, to make the most of overseas labour to help New Zealand get reconnected.
Im not sure if you are aware but crew shortages are a global thing... there just isnt the offshore crew to outsource.
ZKNHF wrote:NZ801 wrote:NZ516 wrote:
That's a good list PA515, so there is a lot of slack in the ATR and Q300 fleet at the moment and they could reinstate more flights easily. Or even open new routes there was a rumour that there might be a new service to Nelson a while back.
Have been thinking about new routes as I was talking with someone who went PMR-CHC-ROT to get from PMR to ROT. They are probably too thin for NZ to look at but even something like NPL-NPE. It’s crazy the amount go back tracking and crazy routings some people have to do but I guess that’s the reality of a small and dispersed pop (outside of AKL.) and a biggish land.
NPL-NPE would have an interesting route. As there aren’t many airways running east west over the North Island, or much of NZ. It could also be a pain for ATR traffic avoidance as they’d need to be pretty high to keep clear of Ruapehu. Unlike the CHC-HKK mountain skimming flights.
PA515 wrote:This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb
PA515
mrkerr7474 wrote:PA515 wrote:This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb
PA515
Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
zkncj wrote:mrkerr7474 wrote:PA515 wrote:This happens from time to time when they lose ETOPS120 status due to equipment problems. It won't be heading to NLK but staying within 60 mins of NLK as an alternate, then 60 mins of BNE, then 60 mins of SYD. Will be interesting to see if they go all the way to MEL or end up at BNE or SYD.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-xzb
PA515
Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
Commons things like faulty APU, to things like on board raft has gone non serviceable.
I flown MEL-AKL on a NZ a320 with an faulty APU before that had to route via NLK (without landing).
There are some parts, aircraft allowed to depart to be depart with non serviceable.
Definitely had an few domestic flights on NZ were the APU was non serviceable. Which required additional paperwork, and start with an ground power unit.
NZ801 wrote:anstar wrote:DavidByrne wrote:Or perhaps the reason is as much that the carrier is short of aircraft and crews to take on additional routes.
Given the poor conditions new crew are on I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case.
“Poor conditions” What evidence do you have to support this claim?
anstar wrote:NZ801 wrote:anstar wrote:
Given the poor conditions new crew are on I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case.
“Poor conditions” What evidence do you have to support this claim?
Well I wouldn't call the starting salary great conditions would you?
Kiwings wrote:Pay is not great....even crew with a lot of seniority before covid and made redundant have come back on new contract at min wage - $21.50 per hour and overtime once duty hits 12 (I think) hours. I understand that Air NZ are already struggling to get crew and I would think a lot of younger crew attracted by the perceived glamour will leave fairly quickly. It does seem short sighted to think that min rate will attract crew.
zkncj wrote:Kiwings wrote:Pay is not great....even crew with a lot of seniority before covid and made redundant have come back on new contract at min wage - $21.50 per hour and overtime once duty hits 12 (I think) hours. I understand that Air NZ are already struggling to get crew and I would think a lot of younger crew attracted by the perceived glamour will leave fairly quickly. It does seem short sighted to think that min rate will attract crew.
$21.50/hr? That has to be plus allowances right?
I know some teenagers, who are currently getting $26-27/hr working an Bunnings.
Even I think Countdown pays more than that.
mrkerr7474 wrote:Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?
mrkerr7474 wrote:Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
NZ801 wrote:The comment was made that conditions were poor and I was just seeking evidence to support that claim. Yep the pay is not great but it’s not the glamour days of old. I’d like to know what else the poster was referring to re poor conditions. I know of a few who are just starting as crew and are very happy. Money isn’t everything and you’ve got to start somewhere.
lowesrus wrote:The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.
Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).
For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.
48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.
Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.
Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.
Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.
Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.
NZ516 wrote:I see that Thai airways are back serving the AKL to BKK route. The same flight number as before TG492 there was a post about it recently on here:
http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/06/ ... y.html?m=0
PA515 wrote:mrkerr7474 wrote:Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?mrkerr7474 wrote:Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
Apparently it was an issue with an "engine driven pump filler". Don't know what that is, but there's a Stuff article today.
https://stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troub ... 0km-detour
PA515
Air New Zealand slashed 4000 jobs during the pandemic, but has since hired 3000 staff and is trying to recruit a further 1100 over the next few months.
NZ6 wrote:lowesrus wrote:The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.
Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).
For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.
48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.
Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.
Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.
Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.
Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.
I find it really interesting. Please correct me if I'm miles off the mark here. Regional crew base pay is similar but they don't get those meal allowances. Yet the job isn't all that much different? Yes you prepare and serve meals, but after all you are being paid to "work" so arguably you should be doing something. Yes you're away from home longer but a large potion of crew work towards long-haul for that international experience? So it's selective and by many is a perk they want.
The $336NZD value for SIN equates to around $290SGD. Given you'll arrive in SIN at 0640 you'll be feed and tired so you'd likely do one of two things. Have a short sleep then early night, or stay up and go to bed early. Either way you're looking at lunch and dinner, maybe a bite to eat for breakfast. It's not $300 worth of meals is it.
But to the same argument crew have always taken dry non perishable goods with them and have pocketed as much as they can so one can argue that using that money for your expenses up there is elective and if you use it all you must be dining in restaurants. With this in mind has the airline factored this into their base salary?
As for using allowances as income; this is a issue which effects many people, those on commission for example but yes I admit this is a major issue. I wonder, if allowances were dropped and built into a salary would this be beneficial or would you be worse off after paying income tax etc.?
As for being on standby - this isn't new is it? hasn't this always been an issue. I thought there was a small allowance for this and higher allowances if called in. I guess it goes back to my comment above. In this scenario you're not actually doing anything. You just need to be able to come in on a set notice. If this was build into a salary would you see less personal downtime and crew rotations tightened to avoid having X number of people on standby, or would you be used on services with shrinkage built into a sectors crewing. I'm thinking about an impact on work / life balance.
If you were on SIN twice a week for 40 weeks of the year, that's an extra $26,880 which is tax free. So working the other way, so your $42K + $38,500 (tax inclusive) = $80,500
That $80K is dam good, with all respect, I think if we aligned the tasks and skills to a ground position the pay would be much higher for crew wouldn't it? I mean, teachers, nurses, fire and emergency are recent careers who've been in the media around pay conditions. That figure is well above those industries.
YMHBSpotting wrote:Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?
ZKNHF wrote:Does anyone know what OAB is up to? Currently over Hamilton Island inbound to Cairns as NZ6001.
Is it off for some heavy maintenance or paint work maybe?
ZKNHF wrote:YMHBSpotting wrote:Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?
Just 1, ZK-OJM
YMHBSpotting wrote:ZKNHF wrote:YMHBSpotting wrote:Just looking at Air NZ's resumption of AKL-HBA next month, and the equipment for the first flight is coming up as A320, not an A320neo, how many international A320s do ANZ have left? I swear there were only three left when they were flying to HBA last year?
Just 1, ZK-OJM
Oh ok, is there any timeframe for its replacement?
zkncj wrote:ZKNHF wrote:Does anyone know what OAB is up to? Currently over Hamilton Island inbound to Cairns as NZ6001.
Is it off for some heavy maintenance or paint work maybe?
Maybe exiting the fleet? with the new domestic A321N's arriving soon.
NZ uses Flying Colours Aviation in Townsville for repainting its short-haul fleet, CNS is likely an customs stop.
Or could be going onto Singapore for some work to be done?
lowesrus wrote:The 787 crew pay is terrible, its below minimum wage currently. Base starting rate 42k. The contract hasn't been ratified since 2018, however they're working on this.
Crew allowances (pilots are on much higher allowances) are around $7 an hour every duty hour (this varies for certain destinations where the NZ dollar is stronger than the local currency).
For example, AKL-SIN (NZ282) 24 hour layover SIN-AKL (NZ281) has an elapsed duty time of 48 hours.
48 x $7 = $336NZD, however this is converted to local currency, which is provided cash in hand at the hotel on arrival.
Although this seems like a a large amount, deduct food and crew usually do a lot of grocery shopping in foreign ports as its cheaper.
Allowances are tax free, and can't be used as proven income for mortgage applications etc, hence why crew are so unsatisfied with the pay. Bear in mind, if they're not flying, they aren't getting their allowances. Thus whilst on annual leave, and a months worth of standby its challenging to survive, especially with the rise of living costs.
Overtime is over 12 hours and its peanuts compared to the old 777 crew contract. NZ are also trying to remove overtime and provide ULR rates (ORD +JFK) which are one off payments rather than an accrued amount during the duty, resulting in being paid less. Overtime is taxed and goes into the bank account, which messes with tax refunds at the end of the financial year. Crew usually owe tax.
Ultimately it's livable, however not fair for the role itself, given the constant exhaustion, limited leave options etc.
NZCH wrote:PA515 wrote:mrkerr7474 wrote:Anyone got an idea what's happening with QF172? It didn't leave WLG to MEL last night and was scheduled to leave 9am today which it did take off but seems to be head to Norfolk Island instead?mrkerr7474 wrote:Oh right that is interesting to know! Do you know what type of equipment issues cause loss of ETOPS120?
Apparently it was an issue with an "engine driven pump filler". Don't know what that is, but there's a Stuff article today.
https://stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troub ... 0km-detour
PA515
Hi all, long time reader to this thread. Felt for once I could have something relevant to add.
The QF 737, ex WLG with the issue earlier in the week was a result of EDP hydraulic leak that was out of limits, discovered during the transit check on turnaround at WLG by the LAME (a family member of mine). Subsequently the aircraft required an EA, Engineering Authority to fly. Pretty much an MEL applied to the tech log. Reason for following day departure was that the flight crew would of exceeded their hours due on the day, due to the required EDTO 60 deviation to the flight path. In turn, Crew overnighted to then take the flight the next morning.
Regards
NZCH
NZ516 wrote:On the Australian thread there was mentioned that Air NZ Tasman load factor is 95% from BITRE data. This is really good for them however it still might not be in profit due to the rapidly rising input costs. I wonder if they will have to add a fuel surcharge to bookings soon. These might be unavoidable now.
NPL8800 wrote:Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/
zkncj wrote:NPL8800 wrote:Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/
Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.
They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.
OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.
Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.
zkncj wrote:NPL8800 wrote:Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/
Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.
They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.
OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.
Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.
ZK-NBT wrote:zkncj wrote:NPL8800 wrote:Air Asia X/D7 indicating they intend to return to AKL via Australia. Be interesting to see which city they come via for round 2.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... l-network/
Will be D7's round 3 I think from memory.
They did an short-lived KUL-CHC service with an A343 from memory? it was around the time of the CHC Earthquake.
OOL has just developed there International Facilities, which might make transiting an bit more friendly. Would be good to see AKL-OOL-KUL return on D7 it really shaked up the New Zealand to Queensland fare market at the time.
Will be interesting to see Scoot comes to New Zealand, if D7 makes a return.
I would have thought D7 might look at one of SYD/MEL although they probably have less issue filling an A333 than OOL ex KUL.
I’m not sure where Scoot fit in NZ even now tbh. NZ/SQ want the premium marketed AKL and fares are high, CHC seems to do well as is. WLG isn’t coming back anytime soon and it’s not really a Scoot market I don’t think. Would need to be via Australia I think for any NZ service.