Sounds like on Monday when head office re-opens and everyone is back at work, there will be some grovelling press release saying a junior employee acted without authority

Don’t governments always find an excuse to sue Ryanair?

Isn’t that just preventing this from happening?

I wont comment about Ryanair's methods, but lets remember the onus for document checks falls on the transporting airline. If passenger ends up being denied entry, then its on the airline to transport them back.

I’m confused. There are several other prominent languages in S. Africa such as Xhosa and isizulu, in addition to a plethora of other native languages. How is just one language supposed to prove passport legitimacy?

But that's rubbish. Not all South Africans can speak Afrikaans. And if anyone fails the test, on what grounds are Ryanair obstructing passengers who, I assume, have valid tickets?

Someone's going to be in court pretty quickly.

Never flown Ryanair. Never will.

Boeing757100 wrote:

I’m confused. There are several other prominent languages in S. Africa such as Xhosa and isizulu, in addition to a plethora of other native languages. How is just one language supposed to prove passport legitimacy?

You are right to be confused. South Africa has 11 Govt-recognised official languages. Afrikaans is just one of them.
I'm waiting for the BBC to pick up the story....

I've read also that Southern Europeans need some other id in addition to the passport to get through the immigration. Also with FR.

No biometric passport yet in SA ?

A polish friend flying Ryanair from London to Madrid was shown a card with a number written in Polish and asked what the number was in English. I believe it was 56 or 59. Easy peasy question for a polish person based in the UK. It was a one off and we thought it was REALLY weird.

LAXintl wrote:

I wont comment about Ryanair's methods, but lets remember the onus for document checks falls on the transporting airline. If passenger ends up being denied entry, then its on the airline to transport them back.

The airline also gets fined. Many years ago, it was 2000 GBP per person. Not sure what the amount is now.

PM wrote:

But that's rubbish. Not all South Africans can speak Afrikaans.

Exactly.

In fact, just looked up the stats: only 14% of South Africans speak Afrikaans as a primary language, rising to 68.5% as a secondary or tertiary.
That's a pretty big swath of people who might not pass a structured test.

I don't know whay we are dancing around this.
It is racist. Something like 2% of black South Africans can speak Afrikaans.
Shame on Ryanair.

usflyer msp wrote:

I don't know whay we are dancing around this.
It is racist. Something like 2% of black South Africans can speak Afrikaans.
Shame on Ryanair.

Granted, I'd imaging that FR is counting on the fact that people traveling to/within Europe will be significantly skewed to an Afrikaans-familiar background.

...but still, this seems like an easy way to wind up in a court case that you're likely to lose, and some really bad PR along the way.

LAX772LR wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I don't know whay we are dancing around this.
It is racist. Something like 2% of black South Africans can speak Afrikaans.
Shame on Ryanair.

Granted, I'd imaging that FR is counting on the fact that people traveling to/within Europe will be significantly skewed to an Afrikaans-familiar background.

...but still, this seems like an easy way to wind up in a court case that you're likely to lose, and some really bad PR along the way.

I'm not even sure that is the case in 2022.
There are plenty of Xhosa and Isizulu speaking people that can afford a trip to Europe.
Apartheid and the prominence of Afrikaans ended 32 years ago.
Heck, alot of non-Afrikaner white people under 40 can't speak Afrikaans since it only a school elective.
Shame on Ryanair, I hope someone sues them.

usflyer msp wrote:

I'm not even sure that is the case in 2022.
There are plenty of Xhosa and Isizulu speaking people that can afford a trip to Europe.
Apartheid and the prominence of Afrikaans ended 32 years ago.
Heck, alot of non-Afrikaner white people under 40 can't speak Afrikaans since it only a school elective.
Shame on Ryanair, I hope someone sues them.

Mine wasn't a statement of can, but more of an assumption of "choose to".... the assumption being Ryanair's. I mean, what else could explain this behavior?

usflyer msp wrote:

I don't know whay we are dancing around this.
It is racist. Something like 2% of black South Africans can speak Afrikaans.
Shame on Ryanair.

It's also bizarre in the other direction; being able to speak Afrikaans doesn't mean that you hold a valid South African passport, any more than my being able to speak French would prove that a (fake) Canadian passport I presented was real.

The correlation between owning a fake South African Passport and not being able to speak Afrikaans is literally 0.

SCQ83 wrote:

Why would Ryanair do this? Shouldn't it be police / border at departure?

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/05/ryanair- ... -16769245/

Ryanair forcing South Africans to do Afrikaans tests to prove passports are real

Multiple South Africans have recently had to answer general knowledge questions in Afrikaans to enter the UK or Ireland, despite this not being a rule officially enforced by either country. The seemingly new policy is Ryanair’s effort to combat a ‘high prevalence in fraudulent South African passports’, the airline told Metro.co.uk.

Sounds a bit odd for Ryanair to do something like that. I wonder if it is something that was done unofficially at an local airport level?

Do airlines get fined if they bring in passengers with fraudulent passports? In Ireland anyway we have no departure checks by immigration personnel so i guess the onus is solely on the airline to make sure the travel docs are valid.

LAX772LR wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I'm not even sure that is the case in 2022.
There are plenty of Xhosa and Isizulu speaking people that can afford a trip to Europe.
Apartheid and the prominence of Afrikaans ended 32 years ago.
Heck, alot of non-Afrikaner white people under 40 can't speak Afrikaans since it only a school elective.
Shame on Ryanair, I hope someone sues them.

Mine wasn't a statement of "can," but more of an assumption of "choose to".... the assumption being Ryanair's.
I mean, what else could explain this behavior?

Most of the fake South African passport holders are other Africans - I'm guessing Ryanair thinks they might be able to speak African languages (because you know they are all alike!) but won't be able to speak Afrikaans since that is strictly South African. I'm guessing the person that made this policy has never been to or even researched South Africa. SMH.

Clydenairways wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Why would Ryanair do this? Shouldn't it be police / border at departure?

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/05/ryanair- ... -16769245/

Ryanair forcing South Africans to do Afrikaans tests to prove passports are real

Multiple South Africans have recently had to answer general knowledge questions in Afrikaans to enter the UK or Ireland, despite this not being a rule officially enforced by either country. The seemingly new policy is Ryanair’s effort to combat a ‘high prevalence in fraudulent South African passports’, the airline told Metro.co.uk.

Sounds a bit odd for Ryanair to do something like that. I wonder if it is something that was done unofficially at an local airport level?

Do airlines get fined if they bring in passengers with fraudulent passports? In Ireland anyway we have no departure checks by immigration personnel so i guess the onus is solely on the airline to make sure the travel docs are valid.

The article literally says it’s Ryanair policy:

“ Ryanair said in a statement: ‘Due to the high prevalence of fraudulent South African passports, we require passengers travelling to the UK to fill out a simple questionnaire issued in Afrikaans.

‘If they are unable to complete this questionnaire, they will be refused travel and issued with a full refund.’

The airline has not responded to any other questions.”

Just wait until a clever SouthAfrican traveller answers the question in Irish, in order to confirm that the person is actually representing the company based in Ireland…

usflyer msp wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I'm not even sure that is the case in 2022.
There are plenty of Xhosa and Isizulu speaking people that can afford a trip to Europe.
Apartheid and the prominence of Afrikaans ended 32 years ago.
Heck, alot of non-Afrikaner white people under 40 can't speak Afrikaans since it only a school elective.
Shame on Ryanair, I hope someone sues them.

Mine wasn't a statement of "can," but more of an assumption of "choose to".... the assumption being Ryanair's.
I mean, what else could explain this behavior?

Most of the fake South African passport holders are other Africans - I'm guessing Ryanair thinks they might be able to speak African languages (because you know they are all alike!) but won't be able to speak Afrikaans since that is strictly South African. I'm guessing the person that made this policy has never been to or even researched South Africa. SMH.

Well they would be misguided. Afrikaans is also spoken extensively in Namibia, for whatever that is worth.

seansasLCY wrote:

Clydenairways wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Why would Ryanair do this? Shouldn't it be police / border at departure?

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/05/ryanair- ... -16769245/

Sounds a bit odd for Ryanair to do something like that. I wonder if it is something that was done unofficially at an local airport level?

Do airlines get fined if they bring in passengers with fraudulent passports? In Ireland anyway we have no departure checks by immigration personnel so i guess the onus is solely on the airline to make sure the travel docs are valid.

The article literally says it’s Ryanair policy:

“ Ryanair said in a statement: ‘Due to the high prevalence of fraudulent South African passports, we require passengers travelling to the UK to fill out a simple questionnaire issued in Afrikaans.

‘If they are unable to complete this questionnaire, they will be refused travel and issued with a full refund.’

The airline has not responded to any other questions.”

Sounds so bizzare. So a South African traveler who doesn’t know Afrikaans will be denied travel purely based on that? I imagine a not insignificant proportion of young South Africans travelling to the UK wouldn’t be fluent in Afrikaans.

I can't believe they can get away with this. A passports authenticity has NOTHING to do with any ability, of any kind, of the person holding it. Unless there is a law in SA specifically stating that every citizen must know how to read and write Afrikaans (the language of a minority group in the country) how exactly does the airline expect to be able to detect a fake from a genuine passport? Ryanair has sunk to a new low if this is true.

And honestly it's just dumb from the airline, it doesn't even make sense, they seem to have a secret wish to be challenged in court.

On another note, I simply don't see how immigration can penalize an air carrier for a forged document. How exactly is a checkin agent supposed to verify the authenticity of a document? It isn't their job, it really isn't.

luckyone wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Mine wasn't a statement of "can," but more of an assumption of "choose to".... the assumption being Ryanair's.
I mean, what else could explain this behavior?

Most of the fake South African passport holders are other Africans - I'm guessing Ryanair thinks they might be able to speak African languages (because you know they are all alike!) but won't be able to speak Afrikaans since that is strictly South African. I'm guessing the person that made this policy has never been to or even researched South Africa. SMH.

Well they would be misguided. Afrikaans is also spoken extensively in Namibia, for whatever that is worth.

Not surprising as in 1920, after the end of World War I, the League of Nations mandated administration of the colony to South Africa.
Why would they not have a large population speaking Afrikaans.

LAXintl wrote:

I wont comment about Ryanair's methods, but lets remember the onus for document checks falls on the transporting airline. If passenger ends up being denied entry, then its on the airline to transport them back.

Whilst I don’t agree with Ryan air in the slightest - you are right there is a massive government trend to informally outsource their border checks, and effectively move their borders offshore for airlines to deal with. It should not be the responsibility of a 21yo checkin agent, paid $22 an hour to be checking the validity of a travel document. This has been a trend for years! Governments need to own their own border process, check and balances - stop forcing airlines to manage their borders for them!

Can they sue Ryanair for discrimination?

luckyone wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Mine wasn't a statement of "can," but more of an assumption of "choose to".... the assumption being Ryanair's.
I mean, what else could explain this behavior?

Most of the fake South African passport holders are other Africans - I'm guessing Ryanair thinks they might be able to speak African languages (because you know they are all alike!) but won't be able to speak Afrikaans since that is strictly South African. I'm guessing the person that made this policy has never been to or even researched South Africa. SMH.

Well they would be misguided. Afrikaans is also spoken extensively in Namibia, for whatever that is worth.

While true, you are far more likely to see a South African with a fake Namibian passport than a Namibian with a fake South African one. Namibians don't need a visa to visit the UK while South Africans do.

usflyer msp wrote:

I'm not even sure that is the case in 2022.
There are plenty of Xhosa and Isizulu speaking people that can afford a trip to Europe.
Apartheid and the prominence of Afrikaans ended 32 years ago.
Heck, alot of non-Afrikaner white people under 40 can't speak Afrikaans since it only a school elective.
Shame on Ryanair, I hope someone sues them.

South African here. Pretty much what you said. Afrikaans was certainly the lingua franca in South Africa until 1994, but since then has been entirely displaced by English in most urban areas. It's still common as a lingua franca in some rural areas, but this isn't universal.

All South Africans have to do two languages at school, your home language and a second language. This is from a list of eleven official languages and tends to vary by province. In many cases where one's home language is an indigenous languages, English will be the second language. This also varies by province, for example, in KwaZulu-Natal, the second most populous province, you will find it hard to find Afrikaans speakers with the exception of some farming communities in the far northwest of the province.

Older South Africans will certainly understand and speak Afrikaans although even amongst them it is in decline. My mother, who used to be fluent in Afrikaans, struggles with it now since she hasn't used it much in three decades. I did it at school and was pretty decent, but I looked at the test and would certainly not pass it even though I would know most of the answers if asked in English.

Also, just to make matters worse, the content of the questions is pretty abstract. I'm not sure most South Africans would get most of the answers correct if it were asked in one's home language anyway.

lesfalls wrote:

Don’t governments always find an excuse to sue Ryanair?

Isn’t that just preventing this from happening?

Since when is it the airlines' responsibility to verify passport validity? Isn't that what Customs & Immigration is for?

Astronage wrote:

lesfalls wrote:

Don’t governments always find an excuse to sue Ryanair?

Isn’t that just preventing this from happening?

Since when is it the airlines' responsibility to verify passport validity? Isn't that what Customs & Immigration is for?

It is similar to China banning airlines if they bring in too many Covid positive people within a certain time frame. They seem to be claiming if a person test negative from a government issued test before the flight and positive when they get to China. It's the airlines fault.

My 13 yr old daughter (White), who grew up in Pretoria and Stellenbosch, which are both predominantly Afrikaans speaking towns, can barely string an Afrikaans sentence together. This wasn’t well thought through.

Astronage wrote:

lesfalls wrote:

Don’t governments always find an excuse to sue Ryanair?

Isn’t that just preventing this from happening?

Since when is it the airlines' responsibility to verify passport validity? Isn't that what Customs & Immigration is for?

It's been that way forever. My Filipino wife and I almost missed a flight to Hong Kong via Beijing once because it took forever to convince the American Airlines gate agents that Filipinos could transit China without a visa.

Imagine Ryanair forcing UK passport holders to answer question in Cockney to prove their pasports were real, you wouldn't Adam & Eve it, there would be such a Bull and Cow.

This is a bit different to UK passport holders having to answer a test in Cockney. Think maybe about people from Poland in the 1980s having to answer a test in Russian

As a Dutchman I was able to understand all questions and had 2/3 of answers correct, guess that would have meant failure. Clearly discrimination, like giving a French language test to all Canadians to proof they are really Canadians ..

Now covered in the UK by BBC, Sky, Times, Telegraph, Guardian, FT and Metro

p.s. A South African friend made an interesting remark: What white person would get a fake SA passport???

I honestly thought this was some sort of April 1st joke when I read it the first time. Then realised we are in June and had to do a double take at the absolute stupidity of this. Afrikaans is only spoken by about 13% of the population in South Africa as their main language. As context Spanish is spoken by about the same amount of Americans. So it would be like giving a questionnaire in Spanish to US travelers and asking them to answer the questions correctly or be denied boarding.

enzo011 wrote:

I honestly thought this was some sort of April 1st joke when I read it the first time. Then realised we are in June and had to do a double take at the absolute stupidity of this. Afrikaans is only spoken by about 13% of the population in South Africa as their main language. As context Spanish is spoken by about the same amount of Americans. So it would be like giving a questionnaire in Spanish to US travelers and asking them to answer the questions correctly or be denied boarding.

That, with other elements make me strongly feel like this idea was from someone in a very monolingual context, probably English-speaking. In my experience, many people coming from that background struggle to get what living in a multilingual country means.

When I first saw this topic header, I thought it was some sort of one-off stupid headline grabbing tabloid story. It's hard to believe it's real and so stupid on so many levels. Who in a large sophisticated company could have come up with such a stupid idea? And then there's the moronic level of ignorance about a country that you're doing business in. I'm an American - arguably the most ignorant country on the planet when it comes to foreign culture. And even I know that Afrikaans is a minority language in South Africa. It's almost impossible to believe this is a true story. But it apparently is. Shocking.

Toinou wrote:

enzo011 wrote:

I honestly thought this was some sort of April 1st joke when I read it the first time. Then realised we are in June and had to do a double take at the absolute stupidity of this. Afrikaans is only spoken by about 13% of the population in South Africa as their main language. As context Spanish is spoken by about the same amount of Americans. So it would be like giving a questionnaire in Spanish to US travelers and asking them to answer the questions correctly or be denied boarding.

That, with other elements make me strongly feel like this idea was from someone in a very monolingual context, probably English-speaking. In my experience, many people coming from that background struggle to get what living in a multilingual country means.

Exactly. In a huge country without a standardized lingua franca, it's kinda hard to find one language that was spoken universally.

Even in my country, the official lingua franca (Indonesian) is actually only spoken as a mother tongue by ~20% of the population. Most of us (excluding me) spoke the local language at home or in daily activities. I've been to a small town 4 hours drive from Jakarta where even the younger population have difficulties understanding standard Indonesian.

[*]

jmmadrid wrote:

A polish friend flying Ryanair from London to Madrid was shown a card with a number written in Polish and asked what the number was in English. I believe it was 56 or 59. Easy peasy question for a polish person based in the UK. It was a one off and we thought it was REALLY weird.

easyjet doing this for years, in all sort of languages. Many, mainly Albanian citizens, tried to travel with fake Romanian, Italian or Greek ID cards into the UK. I think this was recommended by the UK Immigration commission. And this action was very, very successfu - as it helped to prevent illegal entry into the UK.

SoCalPilot wrote:

Astronage wrote:

lesfalls wrote:

Don’t governments always find an excuse to sue Ryanair?

Isn’t that just preventing this from happening?

Since when is it the airlines' responsibility to verify passport validity? Isn't that what Customs & Immigration is for?

It's been that way forever. My Filipino wife and I almost missed a flight to Hong Kong via Beijing once because it took forever to convince the American Airlines gate agents that Filipinos could transit China without a visa.

That's different though. For sure the airlines need to verify that you have the needed documents, but it's not the same as proving they're not fake ones.

Ryanair isn't doing business in South Africa.

This happens when travelers take an European flight to the UK/Ireland. I'm guessing that alone is suspicious, when there are direct flights from SA to the UK.

I'll ask again, no biometric passport in South Africa ?

Aesma wrote:

Ryanair isn't doing business in South Africa.

This happens when travelers take an European flight to the UK/Ireland. I'm guessing that alone is suspicious, when there are direct flights from SA to the UK.

There are a large number of South Africans who live in the UK, particularly London. Many of these people do not want to give up their South African nationality, but will have some sort of indefinite-leave-to-remain or similiar long term residency permit for the UK

readytotaxi wrote:

Imagine Ryanair forcing UK passport holders to answer question in Cockney to prove their pasports were real, you wouldn't Adam & Eve it, there would be such a Bull and Cow.

Dick VanDyke would've passed the Cockney test