usxguy wrote:

wait... is my español malo or does the latest article state that Volkswagon didn't order the parts?!?!?

No, your castellano is perfecto enough, it seems. That's exactly what it says.

It seems that that article has been updated and expanded in the last few hours. It now says that a Mexican official states the the departure airport in Mexico is strictly controlled by the National Guard, and the aircraft arrived with only 2 people (captain and first officer) onboard, and also left that airport with only those 2 onboard. Notwithstanding, it mysteriously arrived in Córdoba, Argentina, with 19 people onboard; 14 Venezuelans and 5 Iranians. Did the plane make a landing in Venezuela on the way? Or were all those 17 people onboard, hiding, during the entire stop in Mexico? Would that even be possible?

MalevTU134 wrote:

usxguy wrote:

wait... is my español malo or does the latest article state that Volkswagon didn't order the parts?!?!?

No, your castellano is perfecto enough, it seems. That's exactly what it says.

It seems that that article has been updated and expanded in the last few hours. It now says that a Mexican official states the the departure airport in Mexico is strictly controlled by the National Guard, and the aircraft arrived with only 2 people (captain and first officer) onboard, and also left that airport with only those 2 onboard. Notwithstanding, it mysteriously arrived in Córdoba, Argentina, with 19 people onboard; 14 Venezuelans and 5 Iranians. Did the plane make a landing in Venezuela on the way? Or were all those 17 people onboard, hiding, during the entire stop in Mexico? Would that even be possible?

Which makes me beg the question.. is flying a B743 with a crew of only 2 even allowed? B743 has a flight engineer station..

MalevTU134 wrote:

usxguy wrote:

wait... is my español malo or does the latest article state that Volkswagon didn't order the parts?!?!?

No, your castellano is perfecto enough, it seems. That's exactly what it says.

It seems that that article has been updated and expanded in the last few hours. It now says that a Mexican official states the the departure airport in Mexico is strictly controlled by the National Guard, and the aircraft arrived with only 2 people (captain and first officer) onboard, and also left that airport with only those 2 onboard. Notwithstanding, it mysteriously arrived in Córdoba, Argentina, with 19 people onboard; 14 Venezuelans and 5 Iranians. Did the plane make a landing in Venezuela on the way? Or were all those 17 people onboard, hiding, during the entire stop in Mexico? Would that even be possible?

Yes they did, as shown on FlightRadar24. Mostly because of 5th Freedom rights not granted for a "venezuelan" airline flying MEX-EZE nonstop and also because of the fuel thing in Baires that the airline already knew. So they fill up the tanks in Venezuela to have enough fuel to fly CCS-EZE-VVI without refuel in Argentina. But Ezeize got bad weather and all just happened

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... 1#2c222845

MalevTU134 wrote:

usxguy wrote:

wait... is my español malo or does the latest article state that Volkswagon didn't order the parts?!?!?

No, your castellano is perfecto enough, it seems. That's exactly what it says.

It seems that that article has been updated and expanded in the last few hours. It now says that a Mexican official states the the departure airport in Mexico is strictly controlled by the National Guard, and the aircraft arrived with only 2 people (captain and first officer) onboard, and also left that airport with only those 2 onboard. Notwithstanding, it mysteriously arrived in Córdoba, Argentina, with 19 people onboard; 14 Venezuelans and 5 Iranians. Did the plane make a landing in Venezuela on the way? Or were all those 17 people onboard, hiding, during the entire stop in Mexico? Would that even be possible?

Uh. wow. This is seriously turning into a movie-worthy drama. And I don't mean a made-for-tv 45 minute short.

usxguy wrote:

wait... is my español malo or does the latest article state that Volkswagon didn't order the parts?!?!?

Correct. The parts (seats for the VW Taos, a SUVW manufactured in Argentina) were ordered by SAS Autoparts, a VW subcontractor, from the manufacturer in Mexico. Fracht was the freight forwarder contracted by SAS (no relation to the airline) and an obscure firm out of Barcelona was the one that hired EMTRASUR.

That's, at least, the paper trail.

More collateral damage from this saga.

Hundreds of Cubana de Aviacion passengers are stuck in Cuba not being able to travel to Argentina. Cubana has been wet leasing a 737-300 (YV-630T) from Venezuela's Aerolineas Estelar to cover the route to Buenos Aires as CU's IL-96 are not operational these days. The problem is that Argentina will no longer allow the supply of fuel to Estelar.

https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/impacto ... zLgXY.html

dcajet wrote:

More collateral damage from this saga.

Hundreds of Cubana de Aviacion passengers are stuck in Cuba not being able to travel to Argentina. Cubana has been wet leasing a 737-300 (YV-630T) from Venezuela's Aerolineas Estelar to cover the route to Buenos Aires as CU's IL-96 are not operational these days. The problem is that Argentina will no longer allow the supply of fuel to Estelar.

https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/impacto ... zLgXY.html

Couldn't they just buy a one way on an airline from Mexico or South America (w/connection) that is allowed to fly to Argentina? I could understand not wanting to shell out for a one way on another carrier with a day delay but after waiting a week its time to bite the bullet and do what you have to do to get home.

pezzy669 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

More collateral damage from this saga.

Hundreds of Cubana de Aviacion passengers are stuck in Cuba not being able to travel to Argentina. Cubana has been wet leasing a 737-300 (YV-630T) from Venezuela's Aerolineas Estelar to cover the route to Buenos Aires as CU's IL-96 are not operational these days. The problem is that Argentina will no longer allow the supply of fuel to Estelar.

https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/impacto ... zLgXY.html

Couldn't they just buy a one way on an airline from Mexico or South America (w/connection) that is allowed to fly to Argentina? I could understand not wanting to shell out for a one way on another carrier with a day delay but after waiting a week its time to bite the bullet and do what you have to do to get home.

...if you have that kind of money left with you, after a few weeks of holidays, plus another week of unexpected expenses.
I'm more curious as to why that aircraft can't tanker fuel on the way, in VVI, for example, for the return flight as well? VVI-EZE-VVI is roughly 5 hours of flight. Surely doable with a 733? (Or Tarija, also in Bolivia, which is more than 200 miles closer to Buenos Aires than is Santa Cruz.) Or in MVD? I understood that Uruguay had a problem with that specific Iranian aircraft, not with Venezuelan aircraft in general?

MalevTU134 wrote:

pezzy669 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

More collateral damage from this saga.

Hundreds of Cubana de Aviacion passengers are stuck in Cuba not being able to travel to Argentina. Cubana has been wet leasing a 737-300 (YV-630T) from Venezuela's Aerolineas Estelar to cover the route to Buenos Aires as CU's IL-96 are not operational these days. The problem is that Argentina will no longer allow the supply of fuel to Estelar.

https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/impacto ... zLgXY.html

Couldn't they just buy a one way on an airline from Mexico or South America (w/connection) that is allowed to fly to Argentina? I could understand not wanting to shell out for a one way on another carrier with a day delay but after waiting a week its time to bite the bullet and do what you have to do to get home.

...if you have that kind of money left with you, after a few weeks of holidays, plus another week of unexpected expenses.
I'm more curious as to why that aircraft can't tanker fuel on the way, in VVI, for example, for the return flight as well? VVI-EZE-VVI is roughly 5 hours of flight. Surely doable with a 733? (Or Tarija, also in Bolivia, which is more than 200 miles closer to Buenos Aires than is Santa Cruz.) Or in MVD? I understood that Uruguay had a problem with that specific Iranian aircraft, not with Venezuelan aircraft in general?

This EMTRASUR 747 episode has put the spotlight on Venezuelan planes and US sanctions against that country, As far as Argentina is concerned, none of the fuel suppliers at EZE (I believe they are 3 or 4) wants to risk being fined themselves as all of them have US interests and/or are outright US corporations or have subsidiaries there. Had the EMTRASUR affair not happened, probably Estelar would not have any problems getting fuel at EZE. But everyone is overcautious now.

dcajet wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

pezzy669 wrote:

Couldn't they just buy a one way on an airline from Mexico or South America (w/connection) that is allowed to fly to Argentina? I could understand not wanting to shell out for a one way on another carrier with a day delay but after waiting a week its time to bite the bullet and do what you have to do to get home.

...if you have that kind of money left with you, after a few weeks of holidays, plus another week of unexpected expenses.
I'm more curious as to why that aircraft can't tanker fuel on the way, in VVI, for example, for the return flight as well? VVI-EZE-VVI is roughly 5 hours of flight. Surely doable with a 733? (Or Tarija, also in Bolivia, which is more than 200 miles closer to Buenos Aires than is Santa Cruz.) Or in MVD? I understood that Uruguay had a problem with that specific Iranian aircraft, not with Venezuelan aircraft in general?

This EMTRASUR 747 episode has put the spotlight on Venezuelan planes and US sanctions against that country, As far as Argentina is concerned, none of the fuel suppliers at EZE (I believe they are 3 or 4) wants to risk being fined themselves as all of them have US interests and/or are outright US corporations or have subsidiaries there. Had the EMTRASUR affair not happened, probably Estelar would not have any problems getting fuel at EZE. But everyone is overcautious now.

Absolutely. My surprise is more about that they can't find a way to fly into and out of EZE (or any airport in Argentina) without the need to refuel there.

MalevTU134 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

...if you have that kind of money left with you, after a few weeks of holidays, plus another week of unexpected expenses.
I'm more curious as to why that aircraft can't tanker fuel on the way, in VVI, for example, for the return flight as well? VVI-EZE-VVI is roughly 5 hours of flight. Surely doable with a 733? (Or Tarija, also in Bolivia, which is more than 200 miles closer to Buenos Aires than is Santa Cruz.) Or in MVD? I understood that Uruguay had a problem with that specific Iranian aircraft, not with Venezuelan aircraft in general?

This EMTRASUR 747 episode has put the spotlight on Venezuelan planes and US sanctions against that country, As far as Argentina is concerned, none of the fuel suppliers at EZE (I believe they are 3 or 4) wants to risk being fined themselves as all of them have US interests and/or are outright US corporations or have subsidiaries there. Had the EMTRASUR affair not happened, probably Estelar would not have any problems getting fuel at EZE. But everyone is overcautious now.

Absolutely. My surprise is more about that they can't find a way to fly into and out of EZE (or any airport in Argentina) without the need to refuel there.

They may be apprehensive to try that route seeing how it didn't work well for EMTRASUR. They could try something like what you're suggesting, but having your plane seized or detained in the case you can't land on time due to unforeseen weather conditions or a last minute diversion is quite a gamble. Even more so when you don't even own the plane you're operating.

Argentina officially started a probe to link the CEO of Fars Air Qeshm, linked to the Quds Forces, an arm of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard charged with terrorism, as the FBI already has determined. Argentina's prosecutors want to know what was Gholamreza Ghasemi doing on a plane that was transporting autoparts between Mexico and Argentina, together with other 18 individuals, an out of the ordinary number of crew members for a regular flight. These irregular circumstances lead to inquire whether the true purpose of the aircraft's arrival was exclusively to transport merchandise, or whether it was based on reasons other than those alleged and whether it may constitute an act of preparation to provide goods or money that could be used for terrorist activity, its financing or organization.

https://en.mercopress.com/2022/06/22/pr ... -s-captain

New revelations from the investigation that the Argentinian D.A. (Ms.Cecilia Incardona) prosecuting the case, paint an even murkier picture about the the 747 background than previously thought:

* Based on documentation found in the plane, it has become clear that neither EMTRASUR nor Mahan Air own or lease the plane. It is, rather, the property of Qeshm Fars Air. This fact has served the DA to rebuke legal claims by the Venezuelan government that the plane should be returned immediately to them as the plane is the property of Venezuela. Additionally, on the flight plan filed with Argentina the day of that fateful flight, it was stated that the plane belongs to EMTRASUR, another inconsistency.

* Multiple employee IDs from different Iranian airlines, as well as EMTRASUR and from Venezuela's INAC (Civil Aviation Regulator), under the name of Gholamreza Ghasemi, were found onboard the plane and in Mr. Ghasemi's hotel room. On paper, Mr. Ghasemi is Qeshm Fars Air's CEO.

* The inconsistencies do not end there. According to the registration certificate 8141 of the Boeing 747 3B3 issued by the National Institute of Civil Aeronautics of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, the plane was registered on January 11, 2022. However, the insurance policy presented, also as qualifying documentation of the aircraft, issued by the company Seguros Miranda, with the seal of the Bolivarian Government of Venezuela, is earlier, dated December 16, 2021.

* In the words of the DA, the documentation aggregated to date is "insufficient to clear up doubts regarding which is the firm that truly owns the aircraft seized here and, if applicable, from when it acquired that property and what were the terms of the commercial transaction"-

https://www.clarin.com/politica/avion-v ... JnVtB.html

Love it love it love it
Movie movie movie

Holy moly.

Uh. are we sure this isn't just a telenovela plot?!?

usxguy wrote:

Holy moly.

Uh. are we sure this isn't just a telenovela plot?!?

Wait. It gets better:

The Argentinian Justice commissioned a specialized company to open and analyze an Apple iPad found during one of the raids and that would not be the property of any of the crew members who are in Buenos Aires.

https://www.eldiarioar.com/politica/avi ... r%20France.

An Iranian individual was apprehended in the province of Entre Rios, Argentina, trying to cross the border to Uruguay, carrying an Argentinian national ID belonging to someone from the province of Corrientes as well as a driver´s license issued by Buenos Aires. Barely speaks English, according to info supplied by Rep. Gerardo Milman, PRO Bs. As.

https://twitter.com/gmilman/status/1540730945484886017

The EMTRASUR 747, parked at a remote corner of EZE, as seen from an AM 787 on its way to MEX.

https://twitter.com/FernandoDelRio/stat ... 3030024192

dcajet wrote:

An Iranian individual was apprehended in the province of Entre Rios, Argentina, trying to cross the border to Uruguay, carrying an Argentinian national ID belonging to someone from the province of Corrientes as well as a driver´s license issued by Buenos Aires. Barely speaks English, according to info supplied by Rep. Gerardo Milman, PRO Bs. As.

I wonder if this is linked, it seems like it could be but it also could be unrelated. If related, this thing gets even more complicated and odd.

argentinevol98 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

An Iranian individual was apprehended in the province of Entre Rios, Argentina, trying to cross the border to Uruguay, carrying an Argentinian national ID belonging to someone from the province of Corrientes as well as a driver´s license issued by Buenos Aires. Barely speaks English, according to info supplied by Rep. Gerardo Milman, PRO Bs. As.

I wonder if this is linked, it seems like it could be but it also could be unrelated. If related, this thing gets even more complicated and odd.

Linked or not, he sure is up to no good with stolen or phony documents. Iranians in Argentina have never been the bearers of good news.

dcajet wrote:

Linked or not, he sure is up to no good with stolen or phony documents. Iranians in Argentina have never been the bearers of good news.

Agreed, related or not, given the history and Iranian citizen traveling under false documentation and false pretenses in Argentina, not to mention attempting to illegally cross a border is extremely suspect.

It shouldn’t be a stretch to then establish that Conviasa and Emtrasur are, in fact, sidecar operations to evade Iranian sanctions. All it took was for bad weather to blow up a carefully concocted plan. The first likely sign is that there is only one other active B743 in the world (in Saudi Arabia), and it requires a 3 man crew. It’s unlikely Venezuela could afford to send its own crew there, or that Saudi Arabia would allow admission of them, for training on the 747-300. Then evidence emerges that 2 left MEX and somehow 19 emerged at EZE.

My guess is that this plane ultimately is ordered destroyed at EZE.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

It shouldn’t be a stretch to then establish that Conviasa and Emtrasur are, in fact, sidecar operations to evade Iranian sanctions. All it took was for bad weather to blow up a carefully concocted plan. The first likely sign is that there is only one other active B743 in the world (in Saudi Arabia), and it requires a 3 man crew. It’s unlikely Venezuela could afford to send its own crew there, or that Saudi Arabia would allow admission of them, for training on the 747-300. Then evidence emerges that 2 left MEX and somehow 19 emerged at EZE.

My guess is that this plane ultimately is ordered destroyed at EZE.

Or tied up in court for years and in the meantime rotting away at EZE's corrosion corner. Funny, it would be the second Venezuelan plane to end up there. In 1993, a VIASA DC-10-30 (YV-135C) had a runway excursion when landing during heavy rain. The plane was declared a W/O and rotted away for years until it was finally broken up; parts of the frame can still be found there.

The hypothesis with which the Argentine prosecutors work is that the flights to Argentina of the Venezuelan-Iranian plane were intelligence gathering exercises for eventual terrorist purposes.

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/opinion/esp ... d26062022/

dcajet wrote:

The hypothesis with which the Argentine prosecutors work is that the flights to Argentina of the Venezuelan-Iranian plane were intelligence gathering exercises for eventual terrorist purposes.

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/opinion/esp ... d26062022/

Also a section from the translation of the article is interesting:

A key fact emerged in the last hours. According to an investigation by journalist Hugo Alconada Mon, the huge Jumbo delayed in Ezeiza is a plane sanctioned by the US government. Until now, United States diplomacy had been wrong when it pointed out that the sanctions fell on the alleged companies that owned the plane (the Iranian Mahan Air and the Venezuelan Conviasa) and not on the plane. But the revealed documents specify that the sanctions include the companies and their planes, about which all the details are recorded. On that list is Ezeiza's plane.

Another interesting development: https://www.clarin.com/politica/escanda ... iNL5U.html

The details are a little confusing, but if I understand correctly, of the 312 auto parts (~47k kg) the Emtrasur aircraft had brought from QRO, 89 (~8500 kg) of them were unaccounted for in the import dispatches corresponding to the rest of the plane's cargo. Those documents show most of the merchandise was picked up by SAS Automotriz, the importing company, within a day or two of the aircraft's arrival (June 6-8).

About a week later, on June 11, a Sky Lease Cargo 747 arrived at EZE from QRO, and its cargo included a shipment of auto parts identical to those unaccounted for in the Emtrasur shipment. These parts have not been claimed, and are still sitting in the imports warehouse at the airport. The Sky Lease shipment was ordered by Fracht, which was earlier reported to have also ordered the Emtrasur shipment (though several questionable intermediaries were apparently also involved).

The one thing I'm confused on is what parts are sitting unclaimed at the airport. Were both sets of 89 parts unclaimed by the recipient, or just the one from Sky Lease? Either way, this second unclaimed shipment is generating more suspicion around the Emtrasur plane and its crew.

The reason the prosecutor was first investigating this was to determine the economic viability of the Emtrasur flight, i.e. whether the cost of operating the flight could be reasonably covered by the price of shipping the cargo claimed in its manifest. If not, that would be another reason to suspect the flight was operated for other purposes than what the crew alleged.

Here's what I think happened...

Plane from Venezuela arrives in EZE, customs folks started noticing some of the paperwork didn't line up. Made a few calls.

'hey boss, this looks weird... this crew is full of caca'

Customs & immigration then did a bit more digging, found MORE discrepancies - let the higher ups in government know.

Argentina then calls Washington DC - FBI/CIA -

"hola, take a look at this, looks wierd, can you help".

A few hours later, red flags by the US government go up.

Argentina and US talk a bit more, Argentina said they need more time but need to keep the plane & crew in Argentina a bit longer

"hey, throw some muscle here".

US State Department then sends out notifications to vendors in Buenos Aires reminding them of the sanctions against both Venezuela AND Iran.

Argentine businesses realize US dollar is worth more than a peso. Decide they will NOT service the plane. Which then causes more mahem on other Venezuelan & friends companies.

Argentina gets more time to do an investigation, and now a script worthy of a 4 or 5 episode NetFlix drama....

dcajet wrote:

Or tied up in court for years and in the meantime rotting away at EZE's corrosion corner.

Yeah, this is precisely what I suspect will happen. Even in its best moments Argentina justice and investigations are incredibly slow. This investigation and the legal matters tied to it are overwhelmingly likely to drag out for years. The plane will likely rot in EZE during that time. I’d be shocked if it ever flies again.

argentinevol98 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Or tied up in court for years and in the meantime rotting away at EZE's corrosion corner.

Yeah, this is precisely what I suspect will happen. Even in its best moments Argentina justice and investigations are incredibly slow. This investigation and the legal matters tied to it are overwhelmingly likely to drag out for years. The plane will likely rot in EZE during that time. I’d be shocked if it ever flies again.

What about our Iranian friends? Passports be returned? Allowed to leave the country? If not allowed, but not arrested, will they also try to swim across rio de La Plata? Or will a submarine be sent to pick them up at the beach?

ADM94 wrote:

Another interesting development: https://www.clarin.com/politica/escanda ... iNL5U.html

The details are a little confusing, but if I understand correctly, of the 312 auto parts (~47k kg) the Emtrasur aircraft had brought from QRO, 89 (~8500 kg) of them were unaccounted for in the import dispatches corresponding to the rest of the plane's cargo. Those documents show most of the merchandise was picked up by SAS Automotriz, the importing company, within a day or two of the aircraft's arrival (June 6-8).

About a week later, on June 11, a Sky Lease Cargo 747 arrived at EZE from QRO, and its cargo included a shipment of auto parts identical to those unaccounted for in the Emtrasur shipment. These parts have not been claimed, and are still sitting in the imports warehouse at the airport. The Sky Lease shipment was ordered by Fracht, which was earlier reported to have also ordered the Emtrasur shipment (though several questionable intermediaries were apparently also involved).

The one thing I'm confused on is what parts are sitting unclaimed at the airport. Were both sets of 89 parts unclaimed by the recipient, or just the one from Sky Lease? Either way, this second unclaimed shipment is generating more suspicion around the Emtrasur plane and its crew.

The reason the prosecutor was first investigating this was to determine the economic viability of the Emtrasur flight, i.e. whether the cost of operating the flight could be reasonably covered by the price of shipping the cargo claimed in its manifest. If not, that would be another reason to suspect the flight was operated for other purposes than what the crew alleged.

I dont agree with last pgh. UPS, Amazon, etc don't determine economic viability based on what's to be delivered today. They have one delivery plane and they have to fulfill the delivery. Unless the freight forwarder does decide its Less than Plan Load and send the parts as mixed cargo with a different forwarder, say Lan Cargo.

stewartg wrote:

argentinevol98 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Or tied up in court for years and in the meantime rotting away at EZE's corrosion corner.

Yeah, this is precisely what I suspect will happen. Even in its best moments Argentina justice and investigations are incredibly slow. This investigation and the legal matters tied to it are overwhelmingly likely to drag out for years. The plane will likely rot in EZE during that time. I’d be shocked if it ever flies again.

What about our Iranian friends? Passports be returned? Allowed to leave the country? If not allowed, but not arrested, will they also try to swim across rio de La Plata? Or will a submarine be sent to pick them up at the beach?

They are persons of interest in an active judicial investigation, their passports have been sequestered by order of a judge. Unless a very good lawyer hired by Iran and/or Venezuela successfully presents the case to a court of appeals and wins it, they are not allowed to leave the country. They are living at a hotel near the airport and their movements must be very closely watched not only by the police but by intelligence organizations, not just from Argentina, if you know what I mean.

If this continues for long, they might need to open their very own Only Fans accounts to get some additional income! Although Tehran might turn its nose to that idea.

argentinevol98 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Or tied up in court for years and in the meantime rotting away at EZE's corrosion corner.

Yeah, this is precisely what I suspect will happen. Even in its best moments Argentina justice and investigations are incredibly slow. This investigation and the legal matters tied to it are overwhelmingly likely to drag out for years. The plane will likely rot in EZE during that time. I’d be shocked if it ever flies again.

In any case, I doubt the residual value of that museum piece (1986 vintage 747-300M) can be that much... No big loss for the Iranians.

usxguy wrote:

Here's what I think happened...

Yes, but what's the deal with those 19 crew? They did not try to enter Argentina, at least there is no reports of that. So what could they been doing? Andes sightseeing trip? Looks unlikely

miegapele wrote:

usxguy wrote:

Here's what I think happened...

Yes, but what's the deal with those 19 crew? They did not try to enter Argentina, at least there is no reports of that. So what could they been doing? Andes sightseeing trip? Looks unlikely

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina? 13 Venezuelan men (all members of the military) plus one female crew member and 5 Iranians, one of which is the CEO of an airline suspected of being the logistic arm of a known terrorist organization descended in Buenos Aires. A few hours later, authorities realized who the Iranians were... In any case, the sheer number of people (19) on a cargo run also set the alarms off.

What their intentions were is the million-dollar question and is what the judiciary in Buenos Aires is trying to solve. Working hypothesis is that these Iranian/Venezuelan "freight runs" are intelligence gathering trips that could eventually lead to terrorism.

dcajet wrote:

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina?

As described above, they were happy on they way to MVD, and were just forced to land again in Buenos Aires. Only then they had to enter. There is no reports of them intentionaly trying before that.
But if Mexicans are to be believed and were were two pilots in there, maybe they were leaving somehow? Still then that would mean they breached security in EZE.

dcajet wrote:

miegapele wrote:

usxguy wrote:

Here's what I think happened...

Yes, but what's the deal with those 19 crew? They did not try to enter Argentina, at least there is no reports of that. So what could they been doing? Andes sightseeing trip? Looks unlikely

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina? 13 Venezuelan men (all members of the military) plus one female crew member and 5 Iranians, one of which is the CEO of an airline suspected of being the logistic arm of a known terrorist organization descended in Buenos Aires. A few hours later, authorities realized who the Iranians were... In any case, the sheer number of people (19) on a cargo run also set the alarms off.

What their intentions were is the million-dollar question and is what the judiciary in Buenos Aires is trying to solve. Working hypothesis is that these Iranian/Venezuelan "freight runs" are intelligence gathering trips that could eventually lead to terrorism.

All this may be true (or not) but in a democracy you either charge people and send them to prison while they wait for their trial or you have to let them go

miegapele wrote:

dcajet wrote:

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina?

As described above, they were happy on they way to MVD, and were just forced to land again in Buenos Aires. Only then they had to enter. There is no reports of them intentionaly trying before that.
But if Mexicans are to be believed and were were two pilots in there, maybe they were leaving somehow? Still then that would mean they breached security in EZE.

They actually spent one night in Buenos Aires BEFORE the aborted trip to MVD, where their fuel broker had arranged for them to get fuel, knowing beforehand that fuel in Argentina was not an option. It took Argentinian authorities 24 hrs to figure out the scandal they had at hand, given that these folks had paraded themselves ar 2 airports in the country (EZE and COR) the day prior without any consequences. That delay is what made the whole issue become public: the ineptitude of the current government. And the press and opposition have not let go since.

All political and legal stuff aside, I would hate to see another 743 bite the dust. How many are left airworthy now?

stewartg wrote:

I dont agree with last pgh. UPS, Amazon, etc don't determine economic viability based on what's to be delivered today. They have one delivery plane and they have to fulfill the delivery. Unless the freight forwarder does decide its Less than Plan Load and send the parts as mixed cargo with a different forwarder, say Lan Cargo.

FedEx, UPS, and Amazon aren't regularly operating most of their network as charter flights for single customers (there are obvious exceptions like Apple's planeloads of iPhones leading up to launch day). Even if they've got one plane and have to fulfill the delivery, you'd expect that they asked to be paid enough to operate the flight (as well as repositioning expenses) and make it reasonably profitable. For a relatively unusual route like QRO-EZE from a small operator, there's no legitimate reason to operate at any significant loss without some mitigating factor, like needing to move the plane between two other jobs anyway. (And getting paid to carry spies/terrorists to Argentina would not be considered legitimate by the Argentines.)

Honestly, what's the problem?! I worked in the past for an Iranian airline and this nothing new to me. I always had the feeling, that onboard are more crew members than passengers (or cargo). Flights were operated at least by double set of crew! One set of crew for the outbound and one for the inbound flight - to avoid overnights. On top, it is not uncommon to have a handful "security staff" on every flight... Even as accredited ramp agent it is impossible to visit the flight deck without the permission of these guys. And then, ALWAYS a handful of maintenance workers/engineers join the flight, as an "AOG tag team", because spare parts are impossible to obtain abroad. Plus additional crew instructors from Iran and trainees from Venezuela, a crew of 19 is NOTHING!!
Remember how many crew were onboard the AN225, this is the same case: pilots, engineers, load masters etc.!

I think Argentina is paranoid, especially after the infamous "Operation Eichmann"....

debonair wrote:

Honestly, what's the problem?! I worked in the past for an Iranian airline and this nothing new to me. I always had the feeling, that onboard are more crew members than passengers (or cargo). Flights were operated at least by double set of crew! One set of crew for the outbound and one for the inbound flight - to avoid overnights. On top, it is not uncommon to have a handful "security staff" on every flight... Even as accredited ramp agent it is impossible to visit the flight deck without the permission of these guys. And then, ALWAYS a handful of maintenance workers/engineers join the flight, as an "AOG tag team", because spare parts are impossible to obtain abroad. Plus additional crew instructors from Iran and trainees from Venezuela, a crew of 19 is NOTHING!!
Remember how many crew were onboard the AN225, this is the same case: pilots, engineers, load masters etc.!

I think Argentina is paranoid, especially after the infamous "Operation Eichmann"....

Well, Iran is behind the deaths of 107 Argentinian citizens in two bombings in the 90s, which Iran has still to answer for, it won't extradite the responsible individuals identified by Argentinian law enforcement. The topic of a dodgy Iranian cargo airline with connections to the same organization responsible for those bombings raises a few red flags in Argentina.

How's that for paranoia?

debonair wrote:

Honestly, what's the problem?! I worked in the past for an Iranian airline and this nothing new to me. I always had the feeling, that onboard are more crew members than passengers (or cargo). Flights were operated at least by double set of crew! One set of crew for the outbound and one for the inbound flight - to avoid overnights. On top, it is not uncommon to have a handful "security staff" on every flight... Even as accredited ramp agent it is impossible to visit the flight deck without the permission of these guys. And then, ALWAYS a handful of maintenance workers/engineers join the flight, as an "AOG tag team", because spare parts are impossible to obtain abroad. Plus additional crew instructors from Iran and trainees from Venezuela, a crew of 19 is NOTHING!!
Remember how many crew were onboard the AN225, this is the same case: pilots, engineers, load masters etc.!

I think Argentina is paranoid, especially after the infamous "Operation Eichmann"....

I’m sorry, I’ve been at the receiving end and the starting point of a lot of cargo flights, but I can’t say I’ve ever seen 19 crew onboard. There are so many red flags on here it’s insane. Even if you’re talking about a doubled up (AND augmented crew) with double mechanics and double loadmasters (which you shouldn’t even need, mind you) you’re talking 10 people. We really going to throw another 9 security guys in for the off chance a few starter motors have too much to drink with the onboard meal service?

19 to fly some some car parts? Nah. I’m sorry. There is some sketchiness here. You can pretend there isn’t, but even if you want to say that is normal, flying in with no transponder? That’s some weapons smuggling level flying right there. This could have been a chapter in Outlaws Inc


Best thread we’ve had in a while. Whole thing is fascinating. Can’t wait for the book

jmmadrid wrote:

dcajet wrote:

miegapele wrote:

Yes, but what's the deal with those 19 crew? They did not try to enter Argentina, at least there is no reports of that. So what could they been doing? Andes sightseeing trip? Looks unlikely

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina? 13 Venezuelan men (all members of the military) plus one female crew member and 5 Iranians, one of which is the CEO of an airline suspected of being the logistic arm of a known terrorist organization descended in Buenos Aires. A few hours later, authorities realized who the Iranians were... In any case, the sheer number of people (19) on a cargo run also set the alarms off.

What their intentions were is the million-dollar question and is what the judiciary in Buenos Aires is trying to solve. Working hypothesis is that these Iranian/Venezuelan "freight runs" are intelligence gathering trips that could eventually lead to terrorism.

All this may be true (or not) but in a democracy you either charge people and send them to prison while they wait for their trial or you have to let them go

I am not a lawyer, nor do I am familiar with the legal figure Argentina is using to retain these individuals' passports but don´t you think that Iran or Venezuela would have descended in Buenos Aires with an army of lawyers if Argentina had been treating their citizens in any way illegal or abusive of their human rights?

Authorities in Argentina have finished downloading the content of 18 cell phones belonging to the EMTRASUR crew.

The messages on their phones, said a source close to the case to LA NACION, indicate that there is something that is not normal. "They give indications that generate doubts, we must continue investigating," said the source.

The messages were recorded between June 8, after the Emtrasur Boeing 747 landed in Buenos Aires and unsuccessfully tried to refuel in Uruguay, and June 14 when the phones were seized in the Plaza Canning hotel, where the crew stayed in the municipality of Ezeiza.

One of the researchers mentioned that the messages seem to give instructions such as "cleaning up" any evidence or clues, which could harm the airmen. "It is not decisive, they are doubtful messages, which make one suspect that there is something strange," the sources revealed.

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/av ... d26062022/

dcajet wrote:

[Well, Iran is behind the deaths of 107 Argentinian citizens in two bombings in the 90s, which Iran has still to answer for, it won't extradite the responsible individuals identified by Argentinian law enforcement. The topic of a dodgy Iranian cargo airline with connections to the same organization responsible for those bombings raises a few red flags in Argentina.

My assumption for the post was nothing, but car parts, were found which were ordered for VW SUV production in Argentina. In light of this, having previously involved in operations of Iranian airlines, it is not uncommon for me to have a crew which is triple the size needed.

dcajet wrote:

jmmadrid wrote:

dcajet wrote:

What do you mean they did not try to enter Argentina? 13 Venezuelan men (all members of the military) plus one female crew member and 5 Iranians, one of which is the CEO of an airline suspected of being the logistic arm of a known terrorist organization descended in Buenos Aires. A few hours later, authorities realized who the Iranians were... In any case, the sheer number of people (19) on a cargo run also set the alarms off.

What their intentions were is the million-dollar question and is what the judiciary in Buenos Aires is trying to solve. Working hypothesis is that these Iranian/Venezuelan "freight runs" are intelligence gathering trips that could eventually lead to terrorism.

All this may be true (or not) but in a democracy you either charge people and send them to prison while they wait for their trial or you have to let them go

I am not a lawyer, nor do I am familiar with the legal figure Argentina is using to retain these individuals' passports but don´t you think that Iran or Venezuela would have descended in Buenos Aires with an army of lawyers if Argentina had been treating their citizens in any way illegal or abusive of their human rights?

It doesn't matter what I think, the procedure is as follows:
1) The police "catch" you doing something wrong/fishy/ackward
2) Police put you in custody (jail)
3) Police have 24/48/72/x (not many more) hours to complete their investigation. Term varies by country, but is never too long.
4) Police share their results with the prosecution, who has xxx hours or x days to come back with a decision wheter to prosecute or not
5) Detainees are taken to court, the judge listens to the prosecution and decides to charge the person or not. If they decide to charge them, they can be kept in custody (prision preventiva) or let go until the trial date. If they decide NOT to charge them, the ex-suspects are good to go.

Argentina is not the far west in 1830. Regardless of the plane's true story, the police, the prosecution and the courts need to follow the procedures. In my opinion, way too much time has passed without these people being charged of something. If you investigate and investigate and you can't find anything, or you don't find enough, you have to let the people go and come back to them when/if you find something.

As for the army of lawyers you mention, maybe they don't have the money or these people are just pawns not worthy of spending money on them...

debonair wrote:

Honestly, what's the problem?! I worked in the past for an Iranian airline and this nothing new to me. I always had the feeling, that onboard are more crew members than passengers (or cargo). Flights were operated at least by double set of crew! One set of crew for the outbound and one for the inbound flight - to avoid overnights. On top, it is not uncommon to have a handful "security staff" on every flight... Even as accredited ramp agent it is impossible to visit the flight deck without the permission of these guys. And then, ALWAYS a handful of maintenance workers/engineers join the flight, as an "AOG tag team", because spare parts are impossible to obtain abroad. Plus additional crew instructors from Iran and trainees from Venezuela, a crew of 19 is NOTHING!!
Remember how many crew were onboard the AN225, this is the same case: pilots, engineers, load masters etc.!

I think Argentina is paranoid, especially after the infamous "Operation Eichmann"....

With all due respect, you're very artfully skipping over the fact that multiple crew members are linked to terrorist organizations. One doesn't have to have worked in cargo to understand that is more than a tad unusual for multiple terrorists to form part of the crew of an aircraft. The investigation is directly based on this fact. Argentina actively has members of Quds Force and the IRGC on wanted lists for attacks in Argentina. There appear to be members of Quds Force and the IRGC among the enormous 19 member crew, not to mention the aircraft itself is owned by an organization linked closely to those terror groups.

Also, I find the Eichmann/Nazi comment an odd cheapshot. Especially since it was Israel, with the help of members of the Argentine Jewish community, who took Eichmann off the streets of Buenos Aires...it is an ironic thing to mention when investigating Iranians in connection to Iranian attacks on both the Israeli embassy in Argentina and a Jewish community center in Buenos Aires.

jmmadrid wrote:

dcajet wrote:

jmmadrid wrote:

All this may be true (or not) but in a democracy you either charge people and send them to prison while they wait for their trial or you have to let them go

I am not a lawyer, nor do I am familiar with the legal figure Argentina is using to retain these individuals' passports but don´t you think that Iran or Venezuela would have descended in Buenos Aires with an army of lawyers if Argentina had been treating their citizens in any way illegal or abusive of their human rights?

It doesn't matter what I think, the procedure is as follows:
1) The police "catch" you doing something wrong/fishy/ackward
2) Police put you in custody (jail)
3) Police have 24/48/72/x (not many more) hours to complete their investigation. Term varies by country, but is never too long.
4) Police share their results with the prosecution, who has xxx hours or x days to come back with a decision wheter to prosecute or not
5) Detainees are taken to court, the judge listens to the prosecution and decides to charge the person or not. If they decide to charge them, they can be kept in custody (prision preventiva) or let go until the trial date. If they decide NOT to charge them, the ex-suspects are good to go.

Argentina is not the far west in 1830. Regardless of the plane's true story, the police, the prosecution and the courts need to follow the procedures. In my opinion, way too much time has passed without these people being charged of something. If you investigate and investigate and you can't find anything, or you don't find enough, you have to let the people go and come back to them when/if you find something.

As for the army of lawyers you mention, maybe they don't have the money or these people are just pawns not worthy of spending money on them...

I don’t think anyone’s been detained yet, though, didn’t they just confiscate passports?

ADM94 wrote:

I don’t think anyone’s been detained yet, though, didn’t they just confiscate passports?

That is my understanding as well, they've had their passports taken from them and exit of the country barred to them but aside from that, they are not detained. They can leave the hotel, sight-see in BA if they'd like, whatever. I may be mistaken about that, but as I understand it they have not been detained in a full legal sense (at least yet). It is very common all round the world, democracies included, for people to be barred exit from the country while an investigation related to them is underway. That is not the same thing (legally at least) as being detained in the traditional sense.

You still need to have been charged to have your passport taken from you, and this has to be approved by a judge. If there are no charges against you, you are 100% innocent and guilty of nothing. Sure, police investigations can carry on until they find something. But they can't take your passport from you meanwhile.

jmmadrid wrote:

You still need to have been charged to have your passport taken from you, and this has to be approved by a judge. If there are no charges against you, you are 100% innocent and guilty of nothing. Sure, police investigations can carry on until they find something. But they can't take your passport from you meanwhile.

Surely if terrorism legislation is used, holding passports >72 hours is at the tame end of the spectrum compared to what could happen?