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ChrisPBacon
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AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:38 am

Service at TOL ends Sept 7. AA blaming regional pilot shortage, but states this is permanent. G4 will be only carrier left at TOL

https://www.13abc.com/2022/06/16/americ ... ce-toledo/
 
ATLgaUSA
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:44 am

It’s just been a matter of time for Toledo. Detroit adequately serves the market.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:47 am

Wow that’s too bad. They have served TOL for years and even added CLT a couple years ago which was successful enough it upgraded to a CR7
 
jetskipper
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:13 pm

This has been a very sad fall from grace. Off the top of my head in the past Toledo has been served with mainline aircraft by United, Delta, TWA, USAir, Eastern, Piedmont and Air Florida and regional flights by Continental, Northwest, America West, Midway and American. Such great history going away. It will be hard to get a Legacy carrier back without a cash incentive.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:41 pm

Hard to justify with DTW being not a long trip up the freeway
 
jetskipper
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:43 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Hard to justify with DTW being not a long trip up the freeway


True, but based on past service it must have worked at some point. The city and airport management did a bad job retaining DTW spill.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:02 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
It’s just been a matter of time for Toledo. Detroit adequately serves the market.

That of course is a matter of opinion.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:14 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:
It’s just been a matter of time for Toledo. Detroit adequately serves the market.

That of course is a matter of opinion.


An opinion the airlines apparently are believing. Or, worst case, know as fact.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:15 pm

It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW. As Delta has built out the hub, it becomes harder and harder to justify an RJ spoke into TOL, when you can fly nonstop, largely on mainline equipment, to almost anywhere in the world.
 
flyfresno
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:23 pm

Sad day for TOL. I can't help but compare TOL to DAY...DAY has a few "advantages" over TOL (slightly larger population, military presence, slightly further from CVG than Toledo is from DTW - including not needing to drive through Detroit to get to DTW, DTW is a much larger hub), which are enough to allow Dayton to have a good amount of airline service (although they did famously lose WN) and TOL to basically not make it at all. I think this is a good argument for a European-style rail service from DTW...think of trains connecting Toledo, Ann Arbor, the northern suburbs / Flint, maybe even Lansing to DTW and downtown Detroit (with rail finally connecting DTW to downtown) a la Amsterdam and other hubs.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:24 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:
It’s just been a matter of time for Toledo. Detroit adequately serves the market.

That of course is a matter of opinion.


An opinion the airlines apparently are believing. Or, worst case, know as fact.

Airlines make decisions based on profits and resources, they don't really care if their potential costumers have "adequate" service. After all if decisions were based on adequate service why would G4 bother with TOL.

For some passangers DTW obvious is an "adequate" substitute, but obviously not for all. For examole, that's a long hall for someone who doesn't drive, or wants to visit Toledo without the added expense and hassle of a car rental.

How could you possibly measure adequacy as a fact? By its nature its an opinion.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:29 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:
It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW. As Delta has built out the hub, it becomes harder and harder to justify an RJ spoke into TOL, when you can fly nonstop, largely on mainline equipment, to almost anywhere in the world.


Downtown Toledo to DTW is 46 miles all on I-75 / I-275, and as mentioned above, you don't have to drive through Detroit to get to it. Easy peasy.
Last edited by tjwgrr on Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:30 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
That of course is a matter of opinion.


An opinion the airlines apparently are believing. Or, worst case, know as fact.

Airlines make decisions based on profits and resources, they don't really care if their potential costumers have "adequate" service. After all if decisions were based on adequate service why would G4 bother with TOL.

For some passangers DTW obvious is an "adequate" substitute, but obviously not for all. For examole, that's a long hall for someone who doesn't drive, or wants to visit Toledo without the added expense and hassle of a car rental.

How could you possibly measure adequacy as a fact? By its nature its an opinion.

Can you give us an estimate on how many people are going to Toledo without needing a car? I'm going to guess that number is quite small. And when the difference in time to DTW vs. TOL is 20 minutes or so...
 
bpatus297
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:39 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Sad day for TOL. I can't help but compare TOL to DAY...DAY has a few "advantages" over TOL (slightly larger population, military presence, slightly further from CVG than Toledo is from DTW - including not needing to drive through Detroit to get to DTW, DTW is a much larger hub), which are enough to allow Dayton to have a good amount of airline service (although they did famously lose WN) and TOL to basically not make it at all. I think this is a good argument for a European-style rail service from DTW...think of trains connecting Toledo, Ann Arbor, the northern suburbs / Flint, maybe even Lansing to DTW and downtown Detroit (with rail finally connecting DTW to downtown) a la Amsterdam and other hubs.


I lived south of Detroit for about 10 years, I highly doubt there is enough traffic to support a Toledo to Detroit and DTW rail service more that once a day. I also doubt there is enough for that.
 
flyfresno
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:47 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Sad day for TOL. I can't help but compare TOL to DAY...DAY has a few "advantages" over TOL (slightly larger population, military presence, slightly further from CVG than Toledo is from DTW - including not needing to drive through Detroit to get to DTW, DTW is a much larger hub), which are enough to allow Dayton to have a good amount of airline service (although they did famously lose WN) and TOL to basically not make it at all. I think this is a good argument for a European-style rail service from DTW...think of trains connecting Toledo, Ann Arbor, the northern suburbs / Flint, maybe even Lansing to DTW and downtown Detroit (with rail finally connecting DTW to downtown) a la Amsterdam and other hubs.


I lived south of Detroit for about 10 years, I highly doubt there is enough traffic to support a Toledo to Detroit and DTW rail service more that once a day. I also doubt there is enough for that.


Rail service would need to be more than once per day...at least 4 trips per day DTW-Toledo would be necessary to have enough frequency for travelers to take it, and then at least hourly service from DTW into Detroit. Ann Arbor probably could support more than Toledo...6 or more trips per day. You'll always get people who will drive, like at many airports, but if the price is right for the train, people will take that too rather than paying for gas and parking at DTW.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:55 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
For some passangers DTW obvious is an "adequate" substitute, but obviously not for all. For examole, that's a long hall for someone who doesn't drive, or wants to visit Toledo without the added expense and hassle of a car rental.


TOL ain't exactly close to downtown Toledo or even many residential areas. There's no public transportation to the airport, either. If you're visiting Toledo, you're probably going to need a car anyway.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:56 pm

Sounds like a perfect route addition for Michigan Flyer bus service!
 
bpatus297
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:58 pm

flyfresno wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Sad day for TOL. I can't help but compare TOL to DAY...DAY has a few "advantages" over TOL (slightly larger population, military presence, slightly further from CVG than Toledo is from DTW - including not needing to drive through Detroit to get to DTW, DTW is a much larger hub), which are enough to allow Dayton to have a good amount of airline service (although they did famously lose WN) and TOL to basically not make it at all. I think this is a good argument for a European-style rail service from DTW...think of trains connecting Toledo, Ann Arbor, the northern suburbs / Flint, maybe even Lansing to DTW and downtown Detroit (with rail finally connecting DTW to downtown) a la Amsterdam and other hubs.


I lived south of Detroit for about 10 years, I highly doubt there is enough traffic to support a Toledo to Detroit and DTW rail service more that once a day. I also doubt there is enough for that.


Rail service would need to be more than once per day...at least 4 trips per day DTW-Toledo would be necessary to have enough frequency for travelers to take it, and then at least hourly service from DTW into Detroit. Ann Arbor probably could support more than Toledo...6 or more trips per day. You'll always get people who will drive, like at many airports, but if the price is right for the train, people will take that too rather than paying for gas and parking at DTW.


I just don't see the route being able to operate without heavy subsidies.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:08 pm

It seems TOL's management should focus on F9 or NK service more or the city, as stated above, on Bus service of some sort. If you can't keep skd service these days, that is your next best bet.
 
joeman
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:23 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
That of course is a matter of opinion.


An opinion the airlines apparently are believing. Or, worst case, know as fact.

Airlines make decisions based on profits and resources, they don't really care if their potential costumers have "adequate" service.

True, they also make decisions based on market protection in big gun markets like slot hording regardless of need/immediate return on investment, sudden frequency buildups to keep competition at bay, etc.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:30 pm

I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:34 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.


Probably lower margin flying that's utilizing resources that can be better used on more profitable markets.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:36 pm

luckyone wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:

An opinion the airlines apparently are believing. Or, worst case, know as fact.

Airlines make decisions based on profits and resources, they don't really care if their potential costumers have "adequate" service. After all if decisions were based on adequate service why would G4 bother with TOL.

For some passangers DTW obvious is an "adequate" substitute, but obviously not for all. For examole, that's a long hall for someone who doesn't drive, or wants to visit Toledo without the added expense and hassle of a car rental.

How could you possibly measure adequacy as a fact? By its nature its an opinion.

Can you give us an estimate on how many people are going to Toledo without needing a car? I'm going to guess that number is quite small. And when the difference in time to DTW vs. TOL is 20 minutes or so...

I don't have an estimate, but the numbers are irrelevant. Maybe the confusion is comming from misuse of the word fact?
 
Aliqiout
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:39 pm

ScottB wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
For some passangers DTW obvious is an "adequate" substitute, but obviously not for all. For examole, that's a long hall for someone who doesn't drive, or wants to visit Toledo without the added expense and hassle of a car rental.


TOL ain't exactly close to downtown Toledo or even many residential areas. There's no public transportation to the airport, either. If you're visiting Toledo, you're probably going to need a car anyway.

All I can say is that I have flown into Toledo for a quick business trip and didn't need a car, and that is why I chose TOL over DTW. It is obvious that there isn't enough travelers like that to make it worth while to the network carriers. My only argument here is with confusing facts with opinions.
 
flyfresno
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:47 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I lived south of Detroit for about 10 years, I highly doubt there is enough traffic to support a Toledo to Detroit and DTW rail service more that once a day. I also doubt there is enough for that.


Rail service would need to be more than once per day...at least 4 trips per day DTW-Toledo would be necessary to have enough frequency for travelers to take it, and then at least hourly service from DTW into Detroit. Ann Arbor probably could support more than Toledo...6 or more trips per day. You'll always get people who will drive, like at many airports, but if the price is right for the train, people will take that too rather than paying for gas and parking at DTW.


I just don't see the route being able to operate without heavy subsidies.


Maybe, maybe not. Don't forget that there is basically no eastbound passenger train service form Detroit (just a bus link), only west towards Chicago or Grand Rapids. This could serve as a link to transfer to eastbound Amtrak trains in Toledo as well.
 
MO11
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:49 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.


Probably lower margin flying that's utilizing resources that can be better used on more profitable markets.



Might be different if PSA didn't have maintenance at CAK.
 
Falk1945
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:55 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
TigerFlyer wrote:
It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW. As Delta has built out the hub, it becomes harder and harder to justify an RJ spoke into TOL, when you can fly nonstop, largely on mainline equipment, to almost anywhere in the world.


Downtown Toledo to DTW is 46 miles all on I-75 / I-275, and as mentioned above, you don't have to drive through Detroit to get to it. Easy peasy.


Having lived in southeastern Michigan for over 40 years and driving well over a couple of hundred times between the Toledo and Detroit areas for both personal and work purposes, I can attest that traveling between Toledo and the Detroit area on I-75 and I-275 is anything but simple or predictable. This is especially true when strong thunderstorms and or rain showers pass through the area that will cause severe flooding problems on local expressways. Taking the generally non-stop construction projects that are common on Michigan expressways into account and the so-called 50-minute drive between Toledo and DTW quoted on driving apps often becomes a 2-hour or more challenge despite not needing to pass through Detroit. I will admit that yes, there are times when you can get from Toledo to DTW in under an hour, but in my experience anyways the drive will more likely than not become much longer than an hour. Despite this, I can see why TOL is at a disadvantage due to its proximity to DTW and would be on the short list of service suspension for a major carrier looking to cut routes. For example, one of the facilities owned by the company my wife works at is in Bryan, Ohio. All necessary business air travel to this location is normally conducted through DTW rather than TOL and FWA both of which are shorter in distance and driving time.
 
ChrisPBacon
Topic Author
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:56 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.


First off, CAK sits between Akron and Canton. That's a healthy population base that's close to the airport and with I-77 running between the 2 cities, CAK has easy access. TOL is well outside the city, and is away from a lot of the suburban areas as well.

There is a lot of population south of CLE that has easy access to CAK. Even the east side suburbs in Cleveland have a comparable drive time to either airport. TOL did better before the McNamara opened. Prior to that, there was no access to DTW from 275. Opening access from Eureka Rd shaved 15 minutes off the drive to DTW. That really hammered TOL.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:08 pm

Is Burlington Air still in TOL?

Delta used to run two out/back 727 flights ATL-TOL-FWA-ATL and ATL-FWA-TOL-ATL back before they let Comair take over. So even then, TOL didn't have enough traffic for a stand alone flight.
Don't forget DAY lost its Piedmont hub long before they lost a few flights from WN.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:21 pm

ChrisPBacon wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.


First off, CAK sits between Akron and Canton. That's a healthy population base that's close to the airport and with I-77 running between the 2 cities, CAK has easy access. TOL is well outside the city, and is away from a lot of the suburban areas as well.

There is a lot of population south of CLE that has easy access to CAK. Even the east side suburbs in Cleveland have a comparable drive time to either airport. TOL did better before the McNamara opened. Prior to that, there was no access to DTW from 275. Opening access from Eureka Rd shaved 15 minutes off the drive to DTW. That really hammered TOL.

The scope of the DL hub in DTW vs. available service in CLE is a big difference too.
 
nkops
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:43 pm

I wonder if this could be an opportunity for DL to jump into the Landline game (bus from TOL-DTW)
 
ScottB
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:44 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Don't forget DAY lost its Piedmont hub long before they lost a few flights from WN.


DAY lost the Piedmont hub because USAir bought them. There was no need to have hubs at both DAY and PIT (not to mention SYR, which also lost a PI hub). The PIT hub was much much larger than the hub at DAY (which barely got to 80 mainline departures at peak) and Pittsburgh is simply a bigger metro area anyway.

The first ten to twenty years after deregulation were a bit akin to a gold rush in the industry. A bunch of carriers started and failed, and both startups and long-established airlines started building hubs in just about any market with enough runways and gates (or even without enough gates). Most of those hubs are long-gone.
 
MO11
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:00 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Is Burlington Air still in TOL?




Shut down September 2011.
 
johns624
Posts: 5368
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:20 pm

Falk1945 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
TigerFlyer wrote:
It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW. As Delta has built out the hub, it becomes harder and harder to justify an RJ spoke into TOL, when you can fly nonstop, largely on mainline equipment, to almost anywhere in the world.


Downtown Toledo to DTW is 46 miles all on I-75 / I-275, and as mentioned above, you don't have to drive through Detroit to get to it. Easy peasy.


Having lived in southeastern Michigan for over 40 years and driving well over a couple of hundred times between the Toledo and Detroit areas for both personal and work purposes, I can attest that traveling between Toledo and the Detroit area on I-75 and I-275 is anything but simple or predictable. This is especially true when strong thunderstorms and or rain showers pass through the area that will cause severe flooding problems on local expressways. Taking the generally non-stop construction projects that are common on Michigan expressways into account and the so-called 50-minute drive between Toledo and DTW quoted on driving apps often becomes a 2-hour or more challenge despite not needing to pass through Detroit. I will admit that yes, there are times when you can get from Toledo to DTW in under an hour, but in my experience anyways the drive will more likely than not become much longer than an hour. Despite this, I can see why TOL is at a disadvantage due to its proximity to DTW and would be on the short list of service suspension for a major carrier looking to cut routes. For example, one of the facilities owned by the company my wife works at is in Bryan, Ohio. All necessary business air travel to this location is normally conducted through DTW rather than TOL and FWA both of which are shorter in distance and driving time.
I live in the western suburbs and frequently drive 275-75 to Toledo. I very, very seldom have any delays. All the freeway flooding seems to be closer to Detroit where the freeways are in a ditch.
 
KarlB737
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:46 pm

ChrisPBacon wrote:
Service at TOL ends Sept 7. AA blaming regional pilot shortage, but states this is permanent.


Detailed report from the local newspaper:

Courtesy: Toledo Blade

American Airlines Pulling Remaining Eagle Flights From Toledo

"Toledo Councilman George Sarantou said that while serving on council in 2007, he visited the airport in Flint, Mich., and reported back on what the airport there was doing well.

Since then, he said, “not much has changed” in Toledo.

“The leadership has got to come from the port authority, and if they’re not going to provide it, then I guess we need to find another group to really pursue that,” Mr. Sarantou said. “The local governments, including TMACOG, and the various organizations, the port authority, Regional Growth [Partnership] … we have to work together to turn this around.”

He noted that airports such as Flint and Akron-Canton have seen success despite proximity to large international airports such as Detroit and Cleveland, and that Toledo has the potential to do the same."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2022/06/16/american-airlines-pulling-remaining-eagle-flights-from-toledo/stories/20220616121
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:41 pm

DL could add a bus as UA and AA have expanded recently. It has been a while but I lived for a time in Monroe/Bolles Harbor area and do not remember any major freeway issues to DTW other than snow. That said, folks in that area seemed to gravitate more to Toledo for a lot services than Detroit...save for air travel. DTW offered non-stops that saved everyone a lot of travel time. YMMV.
 
dtremit
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:46 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:
It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW.


Heck, it takes longer to get to DTW from a lot of Detroit suburbs than it does from downtown Toledo.
 
kavok
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:11 pm

nkops wrote:
I wonder if this could be an opportunity for DL to jump into the Landline game (bus from TOL-DTW)


If we are talking DTW-Toledo (as a metro/city), then Landline might be a good option. Especially if the Toledo “bus station” was placed in a good spot. But as for a bus between DTW-TOL, probably not given the Toledo airport’s non-ideal location.

Not only does TOL suffer as a result of being in close proximity to DTW, it’s own non-convenient location to most in Toledo only makes the problem worse. That’s why I don’t think a DTW-TOL bus would work, because even getting from Toledo to TOL is actually a bit of an annoyance as well.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11142
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:29 pm

How about a bus service from Detroit to Toledo via DTW and TOL.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:52 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
ChrisPBacon wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I'm surprised.

I guess I'd ask how is TOL different from CAK?

CAK has AA service to CLT and DCA even with CLE's AA ops around 40 miles away.


First off, CAK sits between Akron and Canton. That's a healthy population base that's close to the airport and with I-77 running between the 2 cities, CAK has easy access. TOL is well outside the city, and is away from a lot of the suburban areas as well.

There is a lot of population south of CLE that has easy access to CAK. Even the east side suburbs in Cleveland have a comparable drive time to either airport. TOL did better before the McNamara opened. Prior to that, there was no access to DTW from 275. Opening access from Eureka Rd shaved 15 minutes off the drive to DTW. That really hammered TOL.

The scope of the DL hub in DTW vs. available service in CLE is a big difference too.



I don’t think hub makes a huge difference here. This is about AA not DL.
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:17 pm

My friend lives I'm Oregon (Toledo suburbs) and has never flown from TOL in his 30+ years. It is 30 minutes with a toll to TOL and 50 minutes with no toll to DTW.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1228
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:36 pm

And to think.. Ohio and Michigan fought a war over Toledo.. Guess Toledo is still stuck in the middle of those two.
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2433
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:59 pm

This is incredibly sad news. AA has a long history of serving TOL in one form or another. Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA service from TOL looked pretty solid with multiple ER4s to ORD and CR9s to CLT. It's really unfortunate that the current state of the US aviation industry has resulted in a city with a metropolitan area of nearly 700,000 people without access to a network carrier from the local airport. Though the saddest thing is knowing some of the staff and supporters of the local AA service that have devoted their careers to trying to make the service work. My heart goes out to them.

As many have already mentioned, Toledo is double-cursed: once with easy access to a global hub an hour to the north, and second with the local airport being incredibly inconvenient to a good portion of the metro. One could argue being an hour from a global hub is no curse at all. But it does make a difference having the option of a quick drive to an easy facility within a half-hour distance compared to absolutely needing to drive an hour (in favorable conditions) to an enormous facility where you must park your car and, should you miss your flight or it cancel, potentially have to do the trip twice to get back home or spend for an unanticipated hotel stay.

That being said, there could be a saving grace for Toledo. Ohio recently established an Air Service Restoration grant for all commercial airports in the state:

https://www.jobsohio.com/programs-servi ... n-program/

Toledo needs to lobby and lobby HARD for some of that money to attract an airline to replace AA. And who better than none other than United Airlines. United hasn't been seen scheduled in TOL for 30-some years. A lot has changed since then. While United is also facing the same issues as all other US carriers when it comes to crew scheduling, there could be the golden opportunity to come in and be the saving grace TOL needs. They could start by replacing the service lost to ORD with a 3x weekday service. Depending on the stipulations of the JobsOhio grant, UA could open access to the East Coast, either via EWR or IAD, though likely the latter if routes would be flown with 50-seat jets. It would be nice to have CR7s or even E70/E75s should TOL be considered, but at this point I'd be happy just to have them there. Again, this would definitely be a Hail Mary scenario where the airport, city, and state would somehow be successful in lobbying an airline like United to consider such a proposal. But hope springs eternal, especially in this industry,
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1228
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:26 pm

flyCMH wrote:
This is incredibly sad news. AA has a long history of serving TOL in one form or another. Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA service from TOL looked pretty solid with multiple ER4s to ORD and CR9s to CLT. It's really unfortunate that the current state of the US aviation industry has resulted in a city with a metropolitan area of nearly 700,000 people without access to a network carrier from the local airport.


I really wonder if the US, especially the eastern half of the country is overbuilt with airports.

In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service. Snohomish county, with 800,000 people that have for a long time had an hour plus drive to SEA, although that with the opening and puttering along of Paine field that has begun to change. And FWIW, its possible that without Canadian traffic to Bellingham's airport wouldn't be viable.

Given that UA and DL haven't seen TOL as being able to support flights to their hubs, perhaps it's just time to celebrate flights on Allegiant and the like?
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2290
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:28 pm

Perhaps G4 could add a LAS flight or
TOL could persue Breeze
 
bigred10k
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:35 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:38 pm

For being the birthplace of aviation, Ohio has done a terrible job at maintaining commercial airline service for its population. Ohioans shouldn't have to drive to Kentucky or Michigan to get on an airplane.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4407
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:41 pm

[code][/code]
bigred10k wrote:
For being the birthplace of aviation, Ohio has done a terrible job at maintaining commercial airline service for its population. Ohioans shouldn't have to drive to Kentucky or Michigan to get on an airplane.

Aside from the fact that CVG is in Kentucky…and what’s wrong with driving 30 extra minutes from Toledo to DTW to access one of the worlds most connected hubs? People in Wisconsin drive further to do it all the time at ORD. South Carolinians regularly drive to North Carolina and Georgia for flights. People in New Jersey drive to Pennsylvania. New Yorkers *gasp!* drive to NEW JERSEY! Heck, Canadians cross the border for airline flights.

The Wright Brother’s residence in Ohio (and actual flight in North Carolina) in 1903 doesn’t symbolically change the economy of 2022.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1769
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:50 pm

Falk1945 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
TigerFlyer wrote:
It probably takes longer to get from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in rush hour, than from downtown Toledo to DTW. As Delta has built out the hub, it becomes harder and harder to justify an RJ spoke into TOL, when you can fly nonstop, largely on mainline equipment, to almost anywhere in the world.


Downtown Toledo to DTW is 46 miles all on I-75 / I-275, and as mentioned above, you don't have to drive through Detroit to get to it. Easy peasy.


Having lived in southeastern Michigan for over 40 years and driving well over a couple of hundred times between the Toledo and Detroit areas for both personal and work purposes, I can attest that traveling between Toledo and the Detroit area on I-75 and I-275 is anything but simple or predictable. This is especially true when strong thunderstorms and or rain showers pass through the area that will cause severe flooding problems on local expressways. Taking the generally non-stop construction projects that are common on Michigan expressways into account and the so-called 50-minute drive between Toledo and DTW quoted on driving apps often becomes a 2-hour or more challenge despite not needing to pass through Detroit. I will admit that yes, there are times when you can get from Toledo to DTW in under an hour, but in my experience anyways the drive will more likely than not become much longer than an hour. Despite this, I can see why TOL is at a disadvantage due to its proximity to DTW and would be on the short list of service suspension for a major carrier looking to cut routes. For example, one of the facilities owned by the company my wife works at is in Bryan, Ohio. All necessary business air travel to this location is normally conducted through DTW rather than TOL and FWA both of which are shorter in distance and driving time.

It would be interesting to know why Toledo Express was built so far out to the west in the first place? Anticipated growth? Keep future jet noice from the city? While probably well intentioned at the time, time made it a long, slow curse!
As far as what travelers from those half dozen to 10 NW Ohio counties that chose to use TOL over DTW for whatever reason FWA might be a attractive “ new” option. Since the “ Fort to Port “ freeway ( US24) was finished a few years ago travel to FWA is relatively easy from communities like Bryan, Defiance and that area. Even if say 20pax per day decided to use FWA, it might make a measurable difference on a few flights profitability. Maybe the Fort Wayne airport officials ought to market their airport in those areas. Nothing to lose, a potential nice little bit to gain!
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:53 pm

Tan Flyr wrote:
Falk1945 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:

Downtown Toledo to DTW is 46 miles all on I-75 / I-275, and as mentioned above, you don't have to drive through Detroit to get to it. Easy peasy.


Having lived in southeastern Michigan for over 40 years and driving well over a couple of hundred times between the Toledo and Detroit areas for both personal and work purposes, I can attest that traveling between Toledo and the Detroit area on I-75 and I-275 is anything but simple or predictable. This is especially true when strong thunderstorms and or rain showers pass through the area that will cause severe flooding problems on local expressways. Taking the generally non-stop construction projects that are common on Michigan expressways into account and the so-called 50-minute drive between Toledo and DTW quoted on driving apps often becomes a 2-hour or more challenge despite not needing to pass through Detroit. I will admit that yes, there are times when you can get from Toledo to DTW in under an hour, but in my experience anyways the drive will more likely than not become much longer than an hour. Despite this, I can see why TOL is at a disadvantage due to its proximity to DTW and would be on the short list of service suspension for a major carrier looking to cut routes. For example, one of the facilities owned by the company my wife works at is in Bryan, Ohio. All necessary business air travel to this location is normally conducted through DTW rather than TOL and FWA both of which are shorter in distance and driving time.

It would be interesting to know why Toledo Express was built so far out to the west in the first place? Anticipated growth? Keep future jet noice from the city? While probably well intentioned at the time, time made it a long, slow curse!
As far as what travelers from those half dozen to 10 NW Ohio counties that chose to use TOL over DTW for whatever reason FWA might be a attractive “ new” option. Since the “ Fort to Port “ freeway ( US24) was finished a few years ago travel to FWA is relatively easy from communities like Bryan, Defiance and that area. Even if say 20pax per day decided to use FWA, it might make a measurable difference on a few flights profitability. Maybe the Fort Wayne airport officials ought to market their airport in those areas. Nothing to lose, a potential nice little bit to gain!


FWA is much like CAK, probably keeps more service because of the regional carrier who has a maintenance facility there. Even from Ft Wayne, it often makes sense to go ahead and drive to DTW for a flight, just to make the journey much shorter.
 
BoeingG
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:01 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:54 pm

bigred10k wrote:
For being the birthplace of aviation, Ohio has done a terrible job at maintaining commercial airline service for its population. Ohioans shouldn't have to drive to Kentucky or Michigan to get on an airplane.


Soybean farms and cattle pastures aren't conducive to tourism. The boondocks can be serviced by Detroit, Cleveland, and Columbus just fine.

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