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dcaproducer
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:15 pm

I went to college in BG in and worked in Toledo about 25years ago. The airport has always struggled to maintain flights.
NW used to even fly TOL to DTW. I took it once on a Saab. Short, bumpy flight.

Airlines are struggling to operate flights. If an airport can’t fill the planes they pull out. I’d be curious to know their loads.
 
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spinkid
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:36 am

USAirKid wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
This is incredibly sad news. AA has a long history of serving TOL in one form or another. Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA service from TOL looked pretty solid with multiple ER4s to ORD and CR9s to CLT. It's really unfortunate that the current state of the US aviation industry has resulted in a city with a metropolitan area of nearly 700,000 people without access to a network carrier from the local airport.


I really wonder if the US, especially the eastern half of the country is overbuilt with airports.

In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service. Snohomish county, with 800,000 people that have for a long time had an hour plus drive to SEA, although that with the opening and puttering along of Paine field that has begun to change. And FWIW, its possible that without Canadian traffic to Bellingham's airport wouldn't be viable.

Given that UA and DL haven't seen TOL as being able to support flights to their hubs, perhaps it's just time to celebrate flights on Allegiant and the like?


The U.S. is by no means overbuilt with airports, its more of a matter of changes in demographics and matching where people live near the airports. I could see TOL doing very well with Breeze, Avelo and Allegiant. Toledo needs to court them with some incentives.

btw, Washington State has at least 8 Commercial airports other than Seattle. More if you count the ones to the little islands.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:10 am

I honestly didn't realize metro Toledo had a population of 600,000.

I know it's seen its own share of ups and downs, and I know Flint is a little farther away from DTW, but how has FNT been able to retain the level of service it has while TOL has struggled for years?
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:18 am

USAirKid wrote:

I really wonder if the US, especially the eastern half of the country is overbuilt with airports.



Some of it is that the US population has shifted a great deal in some places since air travel began or, perhaps more importantly, since it was deregulated. Toledo's metropolitan population, for example, is nearly identical to what it was in 1970--50+ years ago.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:29 am

TOL has G4 service to SFB, PIE, PGD.
So all is not lost and arguably in the current state of the industry having G4 service plus the decent amount of cargo ops is about as good as it’s going to be for TOL in the near term.

AA service has been hanging on by a thread post pandemic so this is no surprise and without a robust amount of high yielding business travel combined with the pilot staffing issues this is not surprise.

TOL’s death spiral for legacy carriers is decades in the making and multiple factors.

1. Proximity to DTW. A 45-60 minute drive to a multiple daily nonstops is always always going to be preferable to 2-3 daily flights requiring a connection onward.

2. ULCC G4 nonstops at TOL eating away at some who just want a nonstop to their sun destination.

3. Mergers That have consolidated service

4. TOL generally has low-growth and stagnant market. The income levels / disposable income / propensity to travel does it no favors

5. While there is a lot of manufacturing operations in NW Ohio, there are so many alternatives between DTW, FWA, CLE, CMH, DAY the business travel demand is highly fragmented

6. TOL airport location does no favors in the calculus versus just using DTW

Comparing TOL to FNT is apples and oranges. FNT has good access to the higher disposable income areas in the suburbs/ exurbs of Metro Detroit plus pulls from a huge catchment area including MBS, LAN, and all of mid Michigan for ULCC service
 
jplatts
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:33 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I know it's seen its own share of ups and downs, and I know Flint is a little farther away from DTW, but how has FNT been able to retain the level of service it has while TOL has struggled for years?


FNT has some leakage from the LAN and MBS markets in addition to the northern Detroit suburbs, and the combined population of the Flint MSA, Detroit MSA, Saginaw MSA, Bay City MSA, Midland MSA, and Lansing MSA is over 5 million people.

On the other hand, the population of the Northwest Ohio region is approximately 1.6-1.7 million people.

There is more population closer to FNT (including in the Detroit, Midland/Bay City/Saginaw, and Lansing areas in addition to the Flint area) to support the level of service that FNT currently has.

FNT also has G4 service whereas G4 doesn't currently serve DTW, LAN, or MBS.

AA also doesn't currently serve MBS, whereas FNT, LAN, and DTW have AA service.
 
JRL3289
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:38 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
ChrisPBacon wrote:

First off, CAK sits between Akron and Canton. That's a healthy population base that's close to the airport and with I-77 running between the 2 cities, CAK has easy access. TOL is well outside the city, and is away from a lot of the suburban areas as well.

There is a lot of population south of CLE that has easy access to CAK. Even the east side suburbs in Cleveland have a comparable drive time to either airport. TOL did better before the McNamara opened. Prior to that, there was no access to DTW from 275. Opening access from Eureka Rd shaved 15 minutes off the drive to DTW. That really hammered TOL.

The scope of the DL hub in DTW vs. available service in CLE is a big difference too.



I don’t think hub makes a huge difference here. This is about AA not DL.


I mean... the hub *absolutely* makes the difference. There's a reason DL doesn't serve TOL from any of its other hubs: the local market is served via DTW. AA is able to capitalize on the same logic here because there is *no* legacy competition from TOL. The upside for AA is that they get to close a small station and consolidate elsewhere... it's a captive market that has already proven via other carriers that it will drive to DTW. Surprised it didn't happen sooner, honestly.
Last edited by JRL3289 on Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:39 am

I fully expect AA will be out of either FNT or LAN in the next 12 months.

AA is just starting to have to prune their regionals. DL is bit farther ahead but there is a lot of blood to be shed in the legacy networks over the next few years as 50 seaters depart
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:52 am

It appears that TOL has shifted over to being an air cargo mini-hub. Aeronaves TSM flies several daily DC9 & MD80 freighters from TOL to LRD & SHV for the auto industry. Sun Country is flying B738 freighters from TOL for Amazon, too.

The passenger flights American Eagle flies to TOL are 2 ERJ145 flights, one each by Piedmont & Envoy. Both of these airlines just announced big compensation increases for pilots, which makes 50 seat flying a less-profitable proposition for AA. I think the termination of TOL service is just the beginning of AA having to make tough decisions involving service to other smaller cities. Not just in the Rust Belt, but look for some Texas cities to feel the pain soon, too.
 
freakyrat
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:00 am

Even DL and it's contract regional carriers are having problems with a shortage of pilots. In SBN which is another maintenance base for Skywest, Skywest use to operate 4 daily 50 seaters from SBN-DTW now there is One 70 seater in the morning. MSP has been upgraded from One 50 seater to One 70 seater. ATL which was served by Endeavor is now back at Skywest and was suppose to go back to 2 70 seaters and One 50 seater but is downgraded to 3 50 seaters. Maintenance base is booming with Skywest CRJ's of all sizes from AA, DL and UA on the ramp and in the hangar.
 
freakyrat
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:07 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I fully expect AA will be out of either FNT or LAN in the next 12 months.

AA is just starting to have to prune their regionals. DL is bit farther ahead but there is a lot of blood to be shed in the legacy networks over the next few years as 50 seaters depart


AA at SBN to DFW and CLT uses CRJ700's and CRJ900's, E170's to LGA on Football Weekends. DL does want to go to an ALL CRJ900 operation at SBN it is just taking them a while to do it to ATL. They would also like to move some mainline in on the ATL flights. Who knows if UA will keep 50 seaters. I guess with a large CRJ maintenance operation at SBN Skywest will fly those CRJ2's until they are completely worn out.
 
jplatts
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:08 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
Not just in the Rust Belt, but look for some Texas cities to feel the pain soon, too.


I had asked the question over whether AA is likely to pull out of some smaller regional markets in TX/OK near the DFW hub such as LAW, GGG, TYR, ACT, or SPS over in the American Airlines Network Thread, and that post can be found at viewtopic.php?t=1468675#p23346935.
 
JohanTally
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:26 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
It appears that TOL has shifted over to being an air cargo mini-hub. Aeronaves TSM flies several daily DC9 & MD80 freighters from TOL to LRD & SHV for the auto industry. Sun Country is flying B738 freighters from TOL for Amazon, too.

The passenger flights American Eagle flies to TOL are 2 ERJ145 flights, one each by Piedmont & Envoy. Both of these airlines just announced big compensation increases for pilots, which makes 50 seat flying a less-profitable proposition for AA. I think the termination of TOL service is just the beginning of AA having to make tough decisions involving service to other smaller cities. Not just in the Rust Belt, but look for some Texas cities to feel the pain soon, too.

AA has informed employees at ITH and ISP that their station closes on 9/6
 
USAirKid
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:42 am

spinkid wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
This is incredibly sad news. AA has a long history of serving TOL in one form or another. Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA service from TOL looked pretty solid with multiple ER4s to ORD and CR9s to CLT. It's really unfortunate that the current state of the US aviation industry has resulted in a city with a metropolitan area of nearly 700,000 people without access to a network carrier from the local airport.


I really wonder if the US, especially the eastern half of the country is overbuilt with airports.

In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service. Snohomish county, with 800,000 people that have for a long time had an hour plus drive to SEA, although that with the opening and puttering along of Paine field that has begun to change. And FWIW, its possible that without Canadian traffic to Bellingham's airport wouldn't be viable.

Given that UA and DL haven't seen TOL as being able to support flights to their hubs, perhaps it's just time to celebrate flights on Allegiant and the like?


The U.S. is by no means overbuilt with airports, its more of a matter of changes in demographics and matching where people live near the airports. I could see TOL doing very well with Breeze, Avelo and Allegiant. Toledo needs to court them with some incentives.

btw, Washington State has at least 8 Commercial airports other than Seattle. More if you count the ones to the little islands.


Its interesting to assert that the US isn't overbuilt with commercial service airports, when the airlines aren't finding that they can profitably serve those airports. My point with bringing in Western Washington was that many regions of the US don't have airports with passenger service an hour and and change drive away from each other.

Even DAY is kinda close to CVG, but the thing that saves that is it is on the northside of town, and the next airport north of Dayton is TOL with a fair bit of land to cover.

Regarding Washington State, I was only counting airports in Western Washington with 121 passenger service, not the whole state.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:43 am

jetskipper wrote:
This has been a very sad fall from grace. Off the top of my head in the past Toledo has been served with mainline aircraft by United, Delta, TWA, USAir, Eastern, Piedmont and Air Florida and regional flights by Continental, Northwest, America West, Midway and American. Such great history going away. It will be hard to get a Legacy carrier back without a cash incentive.

The factories that drew traffic to Toledo are now all but gone, outforced years ago. The people who came to Toledo for business now go to Mexico or China. Two big airports, one with an International hub just down the road.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:52 am

JRL3289 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
The scope of the DL hub in DTW vs. available service in CLE is a big difference too.



I don’t think hub makes a huge difference here. This is about AA not DL.


I mean... the hub *absolutely* makes the difference. There's a reason DL doesn't serve TOL from any of its other hubs: the local market is served via DTW. AA is able to capitalize on the same logic here because there is *no* legacy competition from TOL. The upside for AA is that they get to close a small station and consolidate elsewhere... it's a captive market that has already proven via other carriers that it will drive to DTW. Surprised it didn't happen sooner, honestly.


Or CAK has a Piedmont maintenance base and is located in a better spot geographically.

Did the DTW DL hub start last month?

More to do with AA than DL. Agree to disagree here.
 
umichman
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:31 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:


I don’t think hub makes a huge difference here. This is about AA not DL.


I mean... the hub *absolutely* makes the difference. There's a reason DL doesn't serve TOL from any of its other hubs: the local market is served via DTW. AA is able to capitalize on the same logic here because there is *no* legacy competition from TOL. The upside for AA is that they get to close a small station and consolidate elsewhere... it's a captive market that has already proven via other carriers that it will drive to DTW. Surprised it didn't happen sooner, honestly.


Or CAK has a Piedmont maintenance base and is located in a better spot geographically.

Did the DTW DL hub start last month?

More to do with AA than DL. Agree to disagree here.


No one is arguing that this wasn't ultimately AA's decision to make, and not DL's. However, DL DTW hub has been mentioned many times over the years by TOL airport authorities as a major factor in attracting and retaining flights. The fact that TOL was chosen as among the first airports where AA is ceasing service is certainly indicative that it was a major factor with AA having to make decisions on where to reduce services. It also stands to reason that the significant number of non-stop flights offered at DTW due to continued DL hub status (unlike CLE) is a major cause of leakage. Particularly among the vital higher spending business flyers who are more concerned with non-stop convenience than pricing. When combining having to make a connection at ORD along with the limited frequencies due to lack of pilots, the somewhat further drive to DTW for a non-stop flight becomes an easy choice for Toledo area residents.

Was just on a MUC-DTW flight a few weeks ago and overheard a pax who told FA he was driving back to his home near CLE and noted that he uses DTW frequently for travel to Europe because of DL's convenient service and that driving from CLE area was often quicker than additional time having to connect on CLE-DTW flights.
 
JRL3289
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:34 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:


I don’t think hub makes a huge difference here. This is about AA not DL.


I mean... the hub *absolutely* makes the difference. There's a reason DL doesn't serve TOL from any of its other hubs: the local market is served via DTW. AA is able to capitalize on the same logic here because there is *no* legacy competition from TOL. The upside for AA is that they get to close a small station and consolidate elsewhere... it's a captive market that has already proven via other carriers that it will drive to DTW. Surprised it didn't happen sooner, honestly.


Or CAK has a Piedmont maintenance base and is located in a better spot geographically.

Did the DTW DL hub start last month?

More to do with AA than DL. Agree to disagree here.


I think we're saying two sides of the same coin here. Of course the ultimate reality is that AA didn't find it viable to maintain a token 2x regional service at a secondary airport when it is easily served via its own much larger operation at DTW. The point about the DL DTW hub has less to do with DL itself and more to do with how a massive hub does impact regional market behaviors (people more willing to drive to DTW for more frequent service to more nonstop destinations). CAK's AA service is certainly driven by Piedmont's maintenance operations there, but that wouldn't explain why UA offers 3x daily ORD-CAK while it, too, has no service to TOL.
 
bigred10k
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:35 pm

luckyone wrote:
[code][/code]
bigred10k wrote:
For being the birthplace of aviation, Ohio has done a terrible job at maintaining commercial airline service for its population. Ohioans shouldn't have to drive to Kentucky or Michigan to get on an airplane.

Aside from the fact that CVG is in Kentucky…and what’s wrong with driving 30 extra minutes from Toledo to DTW to access one of the worlds most connected hubs? People in Wisconsin drive further to do it all the time at ORD. South Carolinians regularly drive to North Carolina and Georgia for flights. People in New Jersey drive to Pennsylvania. New Yorkers *gasp!* drive to NEW JERSEY! Heck, Canadians cross the border for airline flights.

The Wright Brother’s residence in Ohio (and actual flight in North Carolina) in 1903 doesn’t symbolically change the economy of 2022.


What's wrong about it is that Ohio has done a terrible job with its airports. There was no vision when our several airports were built. Planning was done at the local level with no coordination at the state level. We should have built a Cincinnati/Dayton airport between the two cities and an airport between Cleveland and Akron. If that had happened, there is a good chance one or both would still be a hub today. Likewise, Toledo could have been built on the south side of the city. Again, poor planning.

Mayor LaGuardia had the foresight to know that NYC should not rely on New Jersey to be its gateway into the city. The people of New York did not want to invest in an airport in New Jersey. LaGuardia is now one of the nicest airports in the US.
 
Manderson12
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:21 pm

JRL3289 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:

I mean... the hub *absolutely* makes the difference. There's a reason DL doesn't serve TOL from any of its other hubs: the local market is served via DTW. AA is able to capitalize on the same logic here because there is *no* legacy competition from TOL. The upside for AA is that they get to close a small station and consolidate elsewhere... it's a captive market that has already proven via other carriers that it will drive to DTW. Surprised it didn't happen sooner, honestly.


Or CAK has a Piedmont maintenance base and is located in a better spot geographically.

Did the DTW DL hub start last month?

More to do with AA than DL. Agree to disagree here.


I think we're saying two sides of the same coin here. Of course the ultimate reality is that AA didn't find it viable to maintain a token 2x regional service at a secondary airport when it is easily served via its own much larger operation at DTW. The point about the DL DTW hub has less to do with DL itself and more to do with how a massive hub does impact regional market behaviors (people more willing to drive to DTW for more frequent service to more nonstop destinations). CAK's AA service is certainly driven by Piedmont's maintenance operations there, but that wouldn't explain why UA offers 3x daily ORD-CAK while it, too, has no service to TOL.
A good point, and to add to it, while American is ending service from TOL-ORD they are restarting service to CAK-ORD in the fall that will match Uniteds CAK-ORD service and will also increase passenger numbers there because of price reduction. I know TOL is at a great disadvantage because of DTW , but i also believe that its location is also a major impediment, also its management team may not be as effective as comparative size airports.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:16 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I honestly didn't realize metro Toledo had a population of 600,000.

I know it's seen its own share of ups and downs, and I know Flint is a little farther away from DTW, but how has FNT been able to retain the level of service it has while TOL has struggled for years?


In some cases FNT is more convenient for the outer northern suburbs of Detroit and this also happens to be a wealthier area. Back in the AIrTran days it was booming there so there are probably a few that got used to the familiarity of using FNT. WN couldn’t make it work there due to economics but G4 is doing well there and opened a base. Combined with northern Detroit and the Saginaw and Lansing areas it also has a better catchment area as well.

TOL really has nothing but TOL and closer to DTW
 
GSP psgr
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:41 pm

Whereas FNT merely has to compete with MBS and DTW, TOL gets bracketed in every direction-CLE and CAK to the East, DTW to the North, and what might be it's logical catchment area in places like Lima and Findlay can also get the convenience of a smaller airport by driving to FWA, which is only about 100 miles west from Toledo. TOL is perfectly smack dab in the middle of that triangle. That said, without the regional pilot squeeze, TOL should be able to hold on to some level of service, in theory.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:28 pm

Could TOL support 9 seaters to DTW? Most folks would drive but perhaps enough folks would rather not rent a car or take a limo back and forth to DTW.

A limo (cab actually) is around $140 from downtown TOL to DTW. I used to arrange for employees to make that trip alot. I did book a few on the AA flights to ORD but it wasn't often. Most just rented a car and drove to their destination.
 
Q
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:47 pm

Many years ago it is a very strange route Delta Air Lines DC-9-30 only one way nonstop from TOL-CHA. I can't imagine how many people want to go to CHA but I'm sure most were going to ATL with one stop at CHA. It is an odd route. LOL

Q
 
DLPMMM
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:04 am

Toledo has always been schizophrenic as far as destinations of the passengers.

Chicago was always big for a lot of the business passengers and some VFR as both a destination and as a connection point….same for NYC area.

Leisure passengers wanted to go south to FLA and such.

Hard to put the two together to a hub, as CHI and NYC are no good for those flying south, and CLT and ATL are no good for those going to the 2 major metro areas.

Ergo, you have the holiday sun LCCs picking up the FLA routes, and the biz pax just hike up to DTW for a non stop to anywhere.
 
kavok
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:52 am

The more I think about it, if Delta ever did start a landline route, Toledo would be a great choice. The market is sizable enough, and a low cost parking lot, easy bus boarding and check bag setup in Toledo without having to deal with the parking situation at DTW might indeed appeal to enough travelers. Especially if SkyMiles were offered to take the bus. I still hold to my earlier post that such a service would need to have the Toledo bus station in a more convenient spot than TOL airport. But if done correctly, I think it could be a success for DL and Toledo area residents.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:56 am

kavok wrote:
The more I think about it, if Delta ever did start a landline route, Toledo would be a great choice. The market is sizable enough, and a low cost parking lot, easy bus boarding and check bag setup in Toledo without having to deal with the parking situation at DTW might indeed appeal to enough travelers. Especially if SkyMiles were offered to take the bus. I still hold to my earlier post that such a service would need to have the Toledo bus station in a more convenient spot than TOL airport. But if done correctly, I think it could be a success for DL and Toledo area residents.


I agree. It would better if they made some sort of arrangement with a downtown parking ramp rather than try to use TOL.
 
bierhere
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:20 am

I used to travel a lot to Findlay OH from Boston. I would fly to DTW or in the very old days would fly into CMH when it was an America West hub because that was significantly cheaper. I remember only flying to Toledo once at the end of the year to add some flight/miles to hit FF status with AA. Too many negatives to justify going in/out of Toledo. DTW was always better from a schedule perspective and as people said, easy drive down 275/75. The worst part of the drive was Toledo itself.
 
r6russian
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:52 am

usflyer msp wrote:
kavok wrote:
The more I think about it, if Delta ever did start a landline route, Toledo would be a great choice. The market is sizable enough, and a low cost parking lot, easy bus boarding and check bag setup in Toledo without having to deal with the parking situation at DTW might indeed appeal to enough travelers. Especially if SkyMiles were offered to take the bus. I still hold to my earlier post that such a service would need to have the Toledo bus station in a more convenient spot than TOL airport. But if done correctly, I think it could be a success for DL and Toledo area residents.


I agree. It would better if they made some sort of arrangement with a downtown parking ramp rather than try to use TOL.


That would be great if there was a dedicated airport bus facility downtown with its own secure parking. It would have to be within the confines of downtown because it is surrounded by the most dangerous ghetto in Toledo all over from east to north to west, and southwest corner is the 2nd most dangerous ghetto. Cant use the Amtrak station parking lot, its well known that you never leave your car at the amtrak station. Tarta transit hub (central bus stop in Toledo) is a no go, its not around the clock and its right on Cherry St, which is the boundary between downtown and the most dangerous ghetto.

Almost a better location would be at the Franklin Park Mall. Its much more centrally located to the Toledo urban sprawl, theres ample free parking and room to build a bus facility with TSA and secure area, its in a safe area where you can leave your car at for days without worry, you can arrive on a bus that gets in at like midnight and not worry about getting robbed walking to your car, whereas downtown, outside of the party block with the hockey rink and baseball stadium and the streets surrounding them with all the bars which are heavily trafficked and policed til 3AM, rest of downtown is residential, commercial or dilapidated, therefore empty outside of business hours. People arriving on a bus into a empty downtown late at night and walking to their cars would be way too easy of targets.

Obviously theyd need multiple buses a day to align with departure banks and arrival banks, and nobody other than aviation enthusiasts are gonna want to take a bus that leaves them sitting at the airport for 2-3 hours

but the ultimate issue is that people in toledo are too poor to fly Delta. Toledo people drive right past mcnamara and head straight for the North terminal because DL is just too expensive compared to everyone that flies out of the North
 
jjbiv
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:42 am

r6russian wrote:
but the ultimate issue is that people in toledo are too poor to fly Delta. Toledo people drive right past mcnamara and head straight for the North terminal because DL is just too expensive compared to everyone that flies out of the North

Please provide a reference or source for the claim that Toledoans are too poor to fly Delta. The close proximity of Toledo to Delta's hub (with its plethora of non-stop flights to a wide variety of destinations) is often posited as a major reason why Toledo residents drive to DTW to fly rather than use TOL.
 
r6russian
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:12 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:25 am

I live in Toledo, i know the people
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1720
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:35 am

I didn't even realize AA still flew to TOL. Surely a service like ORD-TOL is exactly the type that was on the chopping block.. was it ever going to work when the 50 seat RJs got retired?

Maybe Avelo or Frontier would be willing to give the airport a try?
 
iFlyDTW
Posts: 317
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:50 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
I didn't even realize AA still flew to TOL. Surely a service like ORD-TOL is exactly the type that was on the chopping block.. was it ever going to work when the 50 seat RJs got retired?

Maybe Avelo or Frontier would be willing to give the airport a try?
IF Frontier wins the battle against JetBlue they will have a sizable operation at DTW, so Avelo would be the best option.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:46 pm

r6russian wrote:
I live in Toledo, i know the people


Lol. I have relatives in suburban Toledo. You don’t know them. They are not poor. They have never used TOL. They use DTW because of DL non stops.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:23 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
I didn't even realize AA still flew to TOL. Surely a service like ORD-TOL is exactly the type that was on the chopping block.. was it ever going to work when the 50 seat RJs got retired?

Maybe Avelo or Frontier would be willing to give the airport a try?
IF Frontier wins the battle against JetBlue they will have a sizable operation at DTW, so Avelo would be the best option.


No they won't. Spirit's DTW operation will be downsized long before a merger gets finalized.
 
Q
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 10:29 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:56 pm

It doesn't make sense TOL and DTW what's difference parking airport cost per day? TOL may be much lower rates than DTW. So Why can't Southwest or Spirit fly to TOL from DEN/BWI/MCO/ATL/DFW and NYC (LGA, EWR or JFK)? What a waste of time driving to DTW and also driving gas wasting $$ long drive heavy traffic in DTW area. No sense. TOL is light traffic and gets some open new flights in TOL to avoid DTW traffic and congestions.


Q
 
jetskipper
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:46 pm

Q wrote:
It doesn't make sense TOL and DTW what's difference parking airport cost per day? TOL may be much lower rates than DTW. So Why can't Southwest or Spirit fly to TOL from DEN/BWI/MCO/ATL/DFW and NYC (LGA, EWR or JFK)? What a waste of time driving to DTW and also driving gas wasting $$ long drive heavy traffic in DTW area. No sense. TOL is light traffic and gets some open new flights in TOL to avoid DTW traffic and congestions.


Q


Southwest requires a population of approximately 1M to begin service outside of tourist destinations (BZN, HDN, KOA). Southwest has already pulled service from DAY and CAK which have much larger population bases. I don’t see Spirit adding service because they would just be taking passengers that are already flying out of DTW.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:11 pm

Yes the some of the residents of Toledo are poor (just like DET, CLE and CHI) but there is alot of money in the Burghs. They are thousands of manufacturing jobs left at JEEP, Big 3 suppliers and Big 3 component and stamping plants, the refineries, Cleveland Cliffs, rail, the docks, agri businesses. .

Just down the road is Fremont which is the HQ of Marathon Oil and Cooper Tire. DTW is just too close and folks in NW Ohio are used to driving.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5639
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:26 pm

I think it also has to do with both Toledo and Lucas County losing population for a very long time.

Toledo, Ohio.

1970: 383,818
1990: 332,943
2010: 287,208
2020: 270,871

Lucas County, Ohio

1970: 484,370
2020: 431,279
 
Lootess
Posts: 866
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:10 pm

Toledo is in that situation being next to DTW, just like Macon is next to ATL among others. It was just a matter of time until the plug was pulled. When resources run dry, pull the service that can be reasonably serviced next door. Some people want to play off like it's required to service TOL, but AA themselves said just to go DTW.

Delta last tried MSP-TOL, that whole connecting customers thing that didn't really pay off, limited schedule versus probably just going straight to DTW from their origin.
 
dtremit
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:30 pm

bigred10k wrote:
Ohioans shouldn't have to drive to Kentucky or Michigan to get on an airplane.


Do you think Ohioans drive the 13 whole miles from downtown Cincinnati to CVG in shame, or something? :lol:
 
ScottB
Posts: 7812
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:37 pm

USAirKid wrote:
In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service.


Huh? You have SEA, of course, along with GEG, PAE, BLI, PSC, ALW, EAT, and PUW. That's a lot more than three.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 1288
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Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:11 pm

ScottB wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service.


Huh? You have SEA, of course, along with GEG, PAE, BLI, PSC, ALW, EAT, and PUW. That's a lot more than three.


You missed "the coast" part. I probably could've been more clear by saying Western Washington.

GEG, PSC, ALW, EAT, and PUW are all in the eastern part of the state, which doesn't have that much of the population. (78% of the people who live in Washington state live west of the cascade mountains.). So three airports, PAE, BLI, and SEA, serve a majority of Washington state's population. (And to be fair the southern part of Western Washington is served by PDX.)

But this all goes back to the point I was making earlier that TOL losing AA is likely a symptom of there being an abundance of airports in the US, especially the eastern US. As Jetskipper mentioned, WN generally doesn't serve airports with less than a million people. We might see that also become the case with many of the majors, especially when excellent air service is nearby, such as DTW for TOL.
 
KCaviator
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:53 pm

Toledo to Detroit is literally 45 minutes. That's closer than I commute to work. Suck it up. Life goes on.
 
doulasc
Posts: 940
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:24 am

looks like Toledo will become another Youngstown.Maybe Breeze could add some flights to Toledo
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4716
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:52 am

r6russian wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
kavok wrote:
The more I think about it, if Delta ever did start a landline route, Toledo would be a great choice. The market is sizable enough, and a low cost parking lot, easy bus boarding and check bag setup in Toledo without having to deal with the parking situation at DTW might indeed appeal to enough travelers. Especially if SkyMiles were offered to take the bus. I still hold to my earlier post that such a service would need to have the Toledo bus station in a more convenient spot than TOL airport. But if done correctly, I think it could be a success for DL and Toledo area residents.


I agree. It would better if they made some sort of arrangement with a downtown parking ramp rather than try to use TOL.


That would be great if there was a dedicated airport bus facility downtown with its own secure parking. It would have to be within the confines of downtown because it is surrounded by the most dangerous ghetto in Toledo all over from east to north to west, and southwest corner is the 2nd most dangerous ghetto. Cant use the Amtrak station parking lot, its well known that you never leave your car at the amtrak station. Tarta transit hub (central bus stop in Toledo) is a no go, its not around the clock and its right on Cherry St, which is the boundary between downtown and the most dangerous ghetto.

Almost a better location would be at the Franklin Park Mall. Its much more centrally located to the Toledo urban sprawl, theres ample free parking and room to build a bus facility with TSA and secure area, its in a safe area where you can leave your car at for days without worry, you can arrive on a bus that gets in at like midnight and not worry about getting robbed walking to your car, whereas downtown, outside of the party block with the hockey rink and baseball stadium and the streets surrounding them with all the bars which are heavily trafficked and policed til 3AM, rest of downtown is residential, commercial or dilapidated, therefore empty outside of business hours. People arriving on a bus into a empty downtown late at night and walking to their cars would be way too easy of targets.

Obviously theyd need multiple buses a day to align with departure banks and arrival banks, and nobody other than aviation enthusiasts are gonna want to take a bus that leaves them sitting at the airport for 2-3 hours

but the ultimate issue is that people in toledo are too poor to fly Delta. Toledo people drive right past mcnamara and head straight for the North terminal because DL is just too expensive compared to everyone that flies out of the North


I was just thinking downtown already has the infrastructure like parking ramps. They would just need to work on security.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:06 am

ScottB wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
In the Washington state, we have one major airport on the coast, and only three airports with commercial service.


Huh? You have SEA, of course, along with GEG, PAE, BLI, PSC, ALW, EAT, and PUW. That's a lot more than three.


Don’t forget YKM.

Personally I’d rather fly out of my nice small local Airport than drive to some large busy airport farther away. In my case it’s PAE. If I lived in TOL, I’d try to fly out of there than drive to DTW.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:14 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Yes the some of the residents of Toledo are poor (just like DET, CLE and CHI) but there is alot of money in the Burghs. They are thousands of manufacturing jobs left at JEEP, Big 3 suppliers and Big 3 component and stamping plants, the refineries, Cleveland Cliffs, rail, the docks, agri businesses. .

Just down the road is Fremont which is the HQ of Marathon Oil and Cooper Tire. DTW is just too close and folks in NW Ohio are used to driving.

Mohawk…I believe you meant Findlay. That is where those 2 firms are located. Even my relatives that live just SE of Findlay drive to DTW for the nonstops.
 
Manderson12
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 10:16 pm

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:30 pm

It is all academic now but the Toledo airports biggest problem was location. The airport should have been built either on the north side or the southeast side of the Metro. Then the Toledo area flyers would at least had to consider it as an close in option. By building it far from the center of the population in the boondocks it became easier to bypass as it was totally disconnected from the Metropolitan area. New airport planners across the country could use this as an example of where not to build.
 
bobsmith99
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:02 am

Re: AA to end service at TOL

Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:58 pm

This has been an interesting thread to read. For the TOL historians, when was traffic at its peak? At its height did TOL have multiple daily flights on mainlines? Any widebodies? I'm guessing before deregulation there at least were some point to point flights. Just curious.

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