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DIJKKIJK
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:32 pm

747megatop wrote:
I will be surprised if Geo Politics isn't a factor in this deal. What about MC 21 as a contender for the single aisle requirement? Who knows if India might consider placing an order for MC 21 in exchange for technology transfer and local production facilities at a time when much of the West is sanctioning Russia and whatever it sells? I am making my comment not knowing the actual merits of MC 21 and it's performance. If anybody has an unbiased technical opinion on MC 21 (leaving aside the biases and politics) please throw some light.


Other than during a few short term wet leases, Air India or any other Indian airline haven't operated any Russian built aircraft in their entire history. The Indian DGCA never approved Russian built aircraft for civilian use in India, even during the height of the cold war when India and USSR were the best of friends. You really think they will start looking at the MC-21 now, with Russia under all kinds of sanctions?
 
AviationLuver
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:33 pm

Is there any update on a date for a possible order?
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:17 pm

The MC 21 is dead in the water. With western components no longer available the thing has to be "Russified" and that will take at least 5 years to certification. Once certified they will need to ramp up production and I do not see more than 20 aircraft being produced annually. About as attractive as the latest Russian car models with no ABS, no airbags or safely belts. Sounds like paradise.

Well, lets turn back to the topic on hand - Air India fleet replacement
 
sibibom
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:20 pm

AviationLuver wrote:
Is there any update on a date for a possible order?


15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...
 
smi0006
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:36 pm

sibibom wrote:
AviationLuver wrote:
Is there any update on a date for a possible order?


15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...


I wonder if first they also need to decide on the strategy and alignment for all their brands…. I suspect would help fleet decisions and a brand refresh. This maybe some time off yet, even August could be too soon.

Hoping we see Air India Express ditched for something completely separate from Air India.
 
TObound
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:52 pm

smi0006 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
AviationLuver wrote:
Is there any update on a date for a possible order?


15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...


I wonder if first they also need to decide on the strategy and alignment for all their brands…. I suspect would help fleet decisions and a brand refresh. This maybe some time off yet, even August could be too soon.

Hoping we see Air India Express ditched for something completely separate from Air India.


They could bring back the Indian brand to replace AI Express and Air Asia India.
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:20 pm

sibibom wrote:
AviationLuver wrote:
Is there any update on a date for a possible order?


15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...

That would then imply some political oversight which is highly improbable. Much more likely is that Tata announces a deal when they are ready from a business perspective which will include their own PR reasons.
 
sibibom
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:24 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
AviationLuver wrote:
Is there any update on a date for a possible order?


15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...

That would then imply some political oversight which is highly improbable. Much more likely is that Tata announces a deal when they are ready from a business perspective which will include their own PR reasons.


There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 am

sibibom wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
sibibom wrote:

15th August, which marks 75 years of Indian Independence most likely date from PR prespective since they deemed Farnbarough Airshow wasn't a grand enough occasion. (assuming they were close to an LOI at least). A brand fresh might be too ambitious an ask for in such short notice, but one can always dream...

That would then imply some political oversight which is highly improbable. Much more likely is that Tata announces a deal when they are ready from a business perspective which will include their own PR reasons.


There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.

Trying to remember the big orders made in Canada on July 1st, 2017. Must have forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a multitude of US carriers celebrate July 4th, 2026 by announcing large orders.

Any other countries come to mind where perhaps we have missed private airlines take a similar opportunity to celebrate?

Hope it doesn't get buried in the news with all the celebrating occurring.
 
sibibom
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:09 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
That would then imply some political oversight which is highly improbable. Much more likely is that Tata announces a deal when they are ready from a business perspective which will include their own PR reasons.


There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.

Trying to remember the big orders made in Canada on July 1st, 2017. Must have forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a multitude of US carriers celebrate July 4th, 2026 by announcing large orders.

Any other countries come to mind where perhaps we have missed private airlines take a similar opportunity to celebrate?

Hope it doesn't get buried in the news with all the celebrating occurring.


No clue about Canada,but most American brands and companies (including airlines) celebrate 4th of July. I have never said anyone orders aircrafts to celebrate Independence Day. Air India is in a unique position currently a new owner, a whole new fleet to be inducted, its a dawn of a new era for them. All news seems to indicate they will induct A350 as early as second quarter of 2023, meaning an order will going to annnonced soon. And since it hasn't worked out at Farnborough, the next best posible date is Indpendence day, since its a big deal for us this year.

I have no idea what tangent you have gone on. Anyways back to the topic, the speculating the order and announcement date.

ps : 29th July is JRD's Birth Anniversary. Thats a potential date which also makes sense.
 
TObound
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:23 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
That would then imply some political oversight which is highly improbable. Much more likely is that Tata announces a deal when they are ready from a business perspective which will include their own PR reasons.


There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.

Trying to remember the big orders made in Canada on July 1st, 2017. Must have forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a multitude of US carriers celebrate July 4th, 2026 by announcing large orders.

Any other countries come to mind where perhaps we have missed private airlines take a similar opportunity to celebrate?

Hope it doesn't get buried in the news with all the celebrating occurring.


Yeah. But aviation is far more routine this side of the pond. Flying is still an aspirational thing for a lot of Indians. Also, they are a young and nationalistic country. So milestones like 75 years will come with loss of fanfare.

I don't know if that is what they intend. But launching a whole rebranding that includes a massive order around that date, does have some logic to it. Can't forget that this isn't just about a fleet order. This is part of one of the largest transformations in Indian aviation history.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
Trying to remember the big orders made in Canada on July 1st, 2017. Must have forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a multitude of US carriers celebrate July 4th, 2026 by announcing large orders.

Any other countries come to mind where perhaps we have missed private airlines take a similar opportunity to celebrate?

Hope it doesn't get buried in the news with all the celebrating occurring.


I too find it odd that a delay in ordering aircrafts by a private company to suit a country’s national day or someone’s birthday … what happens if the delay causes some other airline/lessor to pick up the production slots. I am sure for both Boeing and Airbus this order is important, but if another company can buy the same number (or even slightly less) of aircrafts then it will have to be first come first served bases. Especially now with inflation, supply chain and labour constraints in the West.

If business decision is not a priority for Tata’s, no wonder SQ Group and Air Asia Group don’t want to be part of the AI/IX narrative.

TObound wrote:
Yeah. But aviation is far more routine this side of the pond. Flying is still an aspirational thing for a lot of Indians. Also, they are a young and nationalistic country. So milestones like 75 years will come with loss of fanfare.


This. Nationalism is the culture of India since Modi Government came into power.

TObound wrote:
I don't know if that is what they intend. But launching a whole rebranding that includes a massive order around that date, does have some logic to it. Can't forget that this isn't just about a fleet order. This is part of one of the largest transformations in Indian aviation history.


This will be a first … a change in ownership of an airline is considered one of the largest transformations in Indian aviation history.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:25 pm

sibibom wrote:

There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.


This is exactly why you do NOT want to make an announcement that day. There is too much other news and advertising space is at a premium: your coverage will be diluted. If you do it for PR purposes, then you pick the middle of the week with not much else happening. An India-Pakistan cricket match will completely drown out all PR...

I also believe the order announcement will come when it is ready, except when it goes together with a rebranding which I don't believe will happen yet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
a.net experts: A dual supplier strategy is obviously the best.

also a.net experts: Southwest's single supplier model is why they are such a brilliantly profitable airline.


You make a pertinent observation about paradigms expressed on a.net, but, depending on sub-fleet size, both views can be true.

At some point - maybe 100 large narrowbodies - negotiating efficiencies start to overcome fragmented pilot pools, scheduling frictions, and duplication of parts. Lots of big carriers (and carrier groups) operate both 737 and A32X variants. (At the end of 2021, AA had 443 A32X and 309 737s.) 150 of this and 150 of that isn't necessarily sub-optimal for Air India. Don't spread 150 across too many bases, and keep the number of dual bases to a minimum.

If you want to see fleet pathology look at ITA: they will have a few A220s, a couple dozen A32X, a few A330s, a few A350s -- and economies of scale in absolutely NONE of those types - and six different leasing partners! Or, look at late-90s Sabena: 342, 343, 332, 333, wet leased MD-11s, 747s...

As for WN, it's never really learned how to manage complexity, not just in fleet, but in schedule recovery, fare management, and offered routings. It has managed to keep simple pretty profitable, though.
 
sibibom
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:43 pm

AngMoh wrote:
sibibom wrote:

There is nothing political about celebrating 75 years of Independence. Every brand, every corporate house will jump in. This is something thats true across the political spectrum, bar 1% fringe on either side.

Front page Ads on 15th August will have sold at a huge premium, What better than house of Tatas annoucing a new era in Indian Aviation with a brand refresh and order of XXX planes from both Airbus and Boeing. Indian skies are getting crowded again, I remember the advertising. wars in the 2000s between Jet and Kingfisher (one cheekily buying a hoarding next to other annoncing new product, mocking that they made them change), Akasa, Jet, the Tata metaverse of airlines, Spice and Go v/s the notorious big Daddy.


This is exactly why you do NOT want to make an announcement that day. There is too much other news and advertising space is at a premium: your coverage will be diluted. If you do it for PR purposes, then you pick the middle of the week with not much else happening. An India-Pakistan cricket match will completely drown out all PR...

I also believe the order announcement will come when it is ready, except when it goes together with a rebranding which I don't believe will happen yet.


Air India order is THE media event of the season. it will eclipse any other business/corporate/aviation news for weeks. The Government will be more than happy for them to steal the lime light as an advert for the success of its disinvestment policy. There are other companies in the pipeline for disinvestment.
 
TObound
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:59 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
Trying to remember the big orders made in Canada on July 1st, 2017. Must have forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a multitude of US carriers celebrate July 4th, 2026 by announcing large orders.

Any other countries come to mind where perhaps we have missed private airlines take a similar opportunity to celebrate?

Hope it doesn't get buried in the news with all the celebrating occurring.


I too find it odd that a delay in ordering aircrafts by a private company to suit a country’s national day or someone’s birthday … what happens if the delay causes some other airline/lessor to pick up the production slots. I am sure for both Boeing and Airbus this order is important, but if another company can buy the same number (or even slightly less) of aircrafts then it will have to be first come first served bases. Especially now with inflation, supply chain and labour constraints in the West.

If business decision is not a priority for Tata’s, no wonder SQ Group and Air Asia Group don’t want to be part of the AI/IX narrative.


Other than on here, I don't think anybody else has suggested that the order would be timed with a birthday or national day. Based on press, it seems like there are still negotiations on.

Also, when they finalize an order and when they announce it are two very different things. They will announce the order when it suits their PR needs. Even if that is somebody's birthday or national day. Nobody is suggesting they are trying to finalize an order on a specific day.


oceanvikram wrote:
TObound wrote:
I don't know if that is what they intend. But launching a whole rebranding that includes a massive order around that date, does have some logic to it. Can't forget that this isn't just about a fleet order. This is part of one of the largest transformations in Indian aviation history.


This will be a first … a change in ownership of an airline is considered one of the largest transformations in Indian aviation history.


It's not just a change of ownership. Change of fleet. Restructuring of brands. Change of hubs. Change of management. I'd say all of that together is a rather large effort.
 
hohd
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:03 pm

VTORD wrote:
hohd wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
They could deploy XLRs from many smaller Indian cities as a hub-busting strategy

There is not enough traffic from smaller Indian cities except to DXB, where the bilaterals are maxed, may be SIN, even there bilaterals are coming close to being full. XLRs would be for the larger 6 to 8 Indian cities to mostly E Asia and may be some to Europe.

Genuine question. What are you classifying as a "smaller Indian city"? Tier III? e.g., IDR. I
I would assume the XLR would open up a few possibilities from the likes of PNQ, HYD, AMD, CCU to Europe and Africa. For air traffic purposes I am considering these cities Tier II. Which I think you are counting in the 6-8 larger cities. It would be a great plane to circumvent the PNQ WB limitations for e.g.,. I can think of SIN, HKG, FRA, CDG as some possible routes from there.

What about say a JNB or NBO from BOM/BLR/MAA?


Large cities: DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, HYD, CCU
Tier I: DEL, BOM, BLR
Tier II: MAA, HYD, CCU, AMD, COK
Tier III: Rest of cities (PNQ, TRV etc.)

And AI has only one HUB: DEL. For AI, BOM is no longer a hub, just a focus city.
 
TObound
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:06 pm

hohd wrote:
VTORD wrote:
hohd wrote:
There is not enough traffic from smaller Indian cities except to DXB, where the bilaterals are maxed, may be SIN, even there bilaterals are coming close to being full. XLRs would be for the larger 6 to 8 Indian cities to mostly E Asia and may be some to Europe.

Genuine question. What are you classifying as a "smaller Indian city"? Tier III? e.g., IDR. I
I would assume the XLR would open up a few possibilities from the likes of PNQ, HYD, AMD, CCU to Europe and Africa. For air traffic purposes I am considering these cities Tier II. Which I think you are counting in the 6-8 larger cities. It would be a great plane to circumvent the PNQ WB limitations for e.g.,. I can think of SIN, HKG, FRA, CDG as some possible routes from there.

What about say a JNB or NBO from BOM/BLR/MAA?


Large cities: DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, HYD, CCU
Tier I: DEL, BOM, BLR
Tier II: MAA, HYD, CCU, AMD, COK
Tier III: Rest of cities (PNQ, TRV etc.)

And AI has only one HUB: DEL. For AI, BOM is no longer a hub, just a focus city.


They'll have to change that as they restructure and rebrand. Can't be a national full service carrier operating out of just a single Tier 1 city. BOM and BLR at minimum, and maybe CCU will have to become hubs.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:33 pm

TObound wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
TObound wrote:

Doubtful. India has difficult geography with "table top" airports that have some tighter field performance requirements. And that's where a lot of the LCCs operate. If the MAX fleet is not their LCC, MAX 9 is probably the largest they go. If this order is for mainline, MAX 10s might be in play. But then they also have 321Ns for that.

The math still doesn't add up for the 319s, 320s and 321s the are aging and need to be replaced. I'm wondering if there's a split and we see another 60-80 NEOs as well.


AFAIK the takeoff performance of the MAX10 does at least match the MAX9 due to the new Main Landing Gear. So I would guess it would be either MAX8 or MAX10 (most likely both), unless Boeing does not launch a MAX9 with the MAX10 Main Landing Gear for even better takeoff performance or/and a MAX9ER I dont see much reasons to buy a 9 over the 10.


Aside from field performance, I wonder if the Max 10 is just too big. A Max 9 could be fitted with ~200 seats (let's say 198 in 33 rows) and offer a reasonable pitch with the opportunity to upsell some to Y+. All without an extra FA. The MAX 10 would force them over 200 seats, for very little gain.

It's a balancing act. They need to add capacity. But not so much that they remove the ability to add frequency. Really, it's the MAX 200 that works here. If they go above that, it would likely be because they see the opportunity to upsell to Y+. If they want to compete strictly on cost, it'll be the MAX 200.


True but you forgot one thing: I dont think Air India will operate these in a single class configuration, do they? In a 2 Class config similar to what they have on their current narrowbodies the MAX9 would have around 175-180 passengers, the MAX10 around 190.
 
TObound
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:47 pm

DLHAM wrote:
TObound wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

AFAIK the takeoff performance of the MAX10 does at least match the MAX9 due to the new Main Landing Gear. So I would guess it would be either MAX8 or MAX10 (most likely both), unless Boeing does not launch a MAX9 with the MAX10 Main Landing Gear for even better takeoff performance or/and a MAX9ER I dont see much reasons to buy a 9 over the 10.


Aside from field performance, I wonder if the Max 10 is just too big. A Max 9 could be fitted with ~200 seats (let's say 198 in 33 rows) and offer a reasonable pitch with the opportunity to upsell some to Y+. All without an extra FA. The MAX 10 would force them over 200 seats, for very little gain.

It's a balancing act. They need to add capacity. But not so much that they remove the ability to add frequency. Really, it's the MAX 200 that works here. If they go above that, it would likely be because they see the opportunity to upsell to Y+. If they want to compete strictly on cost, it'll be the MAX 200.


True but you forgot one thing: I dont think Air India will operate these in a single class configuration, do they? In a 2 Class config similar to what they have on their current narrowbodies the MAX9 would have around 175-180 passengers, the MAX10 around 190.


I'm assuming it's AI Express (or whatever the LCC brand is called) that will operate these. A 200 seat MAX 8 or MAX 9 makes a lot more sense when you think of it as an LCC airplane.

I think mainline stays with Airbus narrowbodies. There's just no reason for them to switch. And with both Vistara and Air Asia India operating the 320 family, they'll gain a whole pile of 320/NEOs when they sort out their rebranding or restructuring.

The could put the MAX at mainline and 320 families in the LCC. I think that's messier though. Far easier to just transition the LCC to the MAX and then merge in AI Express and Air Asia India as aircraft deliveries ramp.
 
VTORD
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:10 pm

hohd wrote:

Large cities: DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, HYD, CCU
Tier I: DEL, BOM, BLR
Tier II: MAA, HYD, CCU, AMD, COK
Tier III: Rest of cities (PNQ, TRV etc.)

And AI has only one HUB: DEL. For AI, BOM is no longer a hub, just a focus city.


Hmm...I would have put MAA at Tier I and PNQ in Tier II but no big deal.
 
VS11
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Increasingly it looks like this will be a duel supplier order. If it is, I can see AI mainline sticking with the A320neo family and AI Express going with the 737 MAX.


It was always going to be a dual supplier deal. Nobody in their right mind would spend so much money on a single supplier.


a.net experts: A dual supplier strategy is obviously the best.

also a.net experts: Southwest's single supplier model is why they are such a brilliantly profitable airline.


Well, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I meant it in regards to negotiating strategy. Southwest is more of an operational strategy. But after the MAX 8 MCAS crisis, I would imagine that from a risk-management perspective it makes more sense to not have all your "eggs in one basket", if you can.
 
yashk
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:59 pm

Air India is planning to sell all three 77Ls. These three 777s operate 10/wk DEL-SFO and AI's 777 fleet is already stretched pretty thin at the moment. I wonder whether they ll have new planes before these end up leaving.

Source: https://www.livemint.com/news/air-india ... 35809.html
 
SkyEye350
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:13 pm

I've seen Air India send B777-300ERs to SFO quite a few times so I can see them sending that instead of the -200LR. I bet they want to increase capacity to SFO citing lack of India flights since UA canceled all routes from SF-India citing the whole Russia situation. The DEL SFO route utilized the 77L properly but at that point, it was far too late and more efficient airplanes came into the market.

Unless AI plans to make an order announcement as early as next week I think they might slash one of the DEL SFO routes until they get new airplanes
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:09 pm

Keep the thread on topic. Political discussions are limited to the Non Aviation Forum. Political discussion without clear aviation focus isn't permitted in this forum.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
DartHerald
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:09 am

I wonder if this development is a pointer to how the AI order is going to pan out:

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 07.article

Of course it could also just mean that they are looking to pick up maintenance work from other AB operators.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:16 pm

DartHerald wrote:
I wonder if this development is a pointer to how the AI order is going to pan out:

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 07.article

Of course it could also just mean that they are looking to pick up maintenance work from other AB operators.

I don’t think it says anything about the AI order. GMR has no connection to AI/Tata and regardless of what AI selects there are a ton of Airbuses in India that need servicing by certified engineers.
 
MarcelB21
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:24 am

dhdaviation wrote:
NEO would be great for AI, while AI Express could use the MAX.


I'm curious in why AI deided to operate two different tipes of aircraft. Wouldn't it make more sense to just fly all 737 or A320? Also what difference is there from Air India Express to mainline, I ask that as I've seen AI Express flying to places that mainline als flies such as Dubai.
 
atal17
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:49 am

MarcelB21 wrote:
dhdaviation wrote:
NEO would be great for AI, while AI Express could use the MAX.


I'm curious in why AI deided to operate two different tipes of aircraft. Wouldn't it make more sense to just fly all 737 or A320? Also what difference is there from Air India Express to mainline, I ask that as I've seen AI Express flying to places that mainline als flies such as Dubai.


While I’m not sure why IX went for B737s in the first place, we do know it was part of the infamous 68 jet deal that Boeing and Air India signed.

IX was conceived as an idea by AI back in 2003 (before the merger with Indian Airlines) as a LCC to serve nearby Gulf and SE Asia routes, which were extremely lucrative given the huge Indian worker diaspora (often blue-collar workers). At the time, private Indian Carriers were limited by the 5/20 rule and were also (unfairly) restricted from launching Gulf routes if they did start International operations (the latter rule was quietly taken away in 2009, allowing Jet Airways to enter the Gulf market).

Over time, as the AI-IC merger began to pan out, they took over more ex-IC Gulf routes that catered to the VFR/Leisure market, while expanding into new markets like Mangalore. They were (and possibly are) one of the few profitable arms of Air India and managed to remain so even as new entrants like 6E, SG and G8 as well as the Gulf carriers compete fiercely in the market.
 
MarcelB21
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:36 pm

atal17 wrote:
MarcelB21 wrote:
dhdaviation wrote:
NEO would be great for AI, while AI Express could use the MAX.


I'm curious in why AI deided to operate two different tipes of aircraft. Wouldn't it make more sense to just fly all 737 or A320? Also what difference is there from Air India Express to mainline, I ask that as I've seen AI Express flying to places that mainline als flies such as Dubai.


While I’m not sure why IX went for B737s in the first place, we do know it was part of the infamous 68 jet deal that Boeing and Air India signed.

IX was conceived as an idea by AI back in 2003 (before the merger with Indian Airlines) as a LCC to serve nearby Gulf and SE Asia routes, which were extremely lucrative given the huge Indian worker diaspora (often blue-collar workers). At the time, private Indian Carriers were limited by the 5/20 rule and were also (unfairly) restricted from launching Gulf routes if they did start International operations (the latter rule was quietly taken away in 2009, allowing Jet Airways to enter the Gulf market).

Over time, as the AI-IC merger began to pan out, they took over more ex-IC Gulf routes that catered to the VFR/Leisure market, while expanding into new markets like Mangalore. They were (and possibly are) one of the few profitable arms of Air India and managed to remain so even as new entrants like 6E, SG and G8 as well as the Gulf carriers compete fiercely in the market.


Hmm, interesting, seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) as the Air India Express brand is quite pointless. I guess they have different contracts so perhaps operations wise they are cheaper?
 
blrBird
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:04 pm

MarcelB21 wrote:
Hmm, interesting, seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) as the Air India Express brand is quite pointless. I guess they have different contracts so perhaps operations wise they are cheaper?


AIX is a separate company with its own AOC, this allows it to have a different pay scale, contracts yada yada etc. Even with TATA takeover and their own airlines portfolio consolidation they intend to keep this brand and run as LCC for <=5 hours flying from Indian borders. Primarily this has been more India-Gulf flights but looks like they intended to expand more towards SE Asian side too.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:13 pm

It appears that for the time being, Tata and Air India are going to lease in 30 planes. These will be 5 B772 LRs, 21 A320 NEOs and 4 A321 NEOs.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-09-12/
 
rbavfan
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:27 pm

avier wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
I guess it will be a combination of 8200s and A321(XLRs), possibly a 60/40 split towards the 737s.

737-8200 MAX only makes sense if it in all Y cabin, that would work for their LCC arm. Otherwise, for an FSC in dual cabin layout, I wonder what propose does it serve.


Commonality in the fleet. Same door layouts. 1 same FA & maintenance procedures for all versions reducing op cost.
 
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SQ22
Moderator
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:09 pm

Please remember to provide a link to your source when stating facts or make it clear you are expressing your opinion, thanks.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:36 pm

so 25 leased narrowbodies as opposed to 300 purchased

that's an order of magnitude shy ;p
 
airboss787
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Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:37 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
so 25 leased narrowbodies as opposed to 300 purchased

that's an order of magnitude shy ;p


The 2 orders are independent. This one is a short term order for planes to arrive over the next 6-9 months. The 300 aircraft order is a long term one that'll happen soon.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:32 am

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
so 25 leased narrowbodies as opposed to 300 purchased

that's an order of magnitude shy ;p


I think 25% increase in fleet size is a significant growth, if anything the only one A320 classic will be replaced. It is a great move, in that it is sustainable growth that meets the market and does not require to extend themselves (even if they are leased).

It is agreed that within this forum and others that Tata need to integrate AI with UK and IX with I5. Some have suggested removing the UK brand. And within this forum it is believed that Tata’s airlines will merge and so on, hence the order for 300 NBs, some even believe that is not enough.

However I have seen no proof that there are any discussions to merge AI and UK, media has not reported any such thing nor there has been any statements given by Tata and Sons, Singapore Airlines Group and Air Asia Group. I have not seen any new bonds issued from Tata and Sons in order to make an order of such a size. Having said that I don’t know what are the transparency requirements of M&As and bond issuance in India and am assuming it is similar to Australia’s.

airboss787 wrote:
The 2 orders are independent. This one is a short term order for planes to arrive over the next 6-9 months. The 300 aircraft order is a long term one that'll happen soon.


You seem to have insiders knowledge, so can you define "soon"? As in by the end of this year, Q1,Q2, Q3 or Q4 2023? (Genuine question)

If it happens "soon" and then can you confirm it will be 300 and not 275 (since they are leasing some of the NBs to be delivered in 2023)? (Genuine question)
 
yashk
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:38 am

oceanvikram wrote:

It is agreed that within this forum and others that Tata need to integrate AI with UK and IX with I5. Some have suggested removing the UK brand. And within this forum it is believed that Tata’s airlines will merge and so on, hence the order for 300 NBs, some even believe that is not enough.

However I have seen no proof that there are any discussions to merge AI and UK, media has not reported any such thing nor there has been any statements given by Tata and Sons, Singapore Airlines Group and Air Asia Group. I have not seen any new bonds issued from Tata and Sons in order to make an order of such a size. Having said that I don’t know what are the transparency requirements of M&As and bond issuance in India and am assuming it is similar to Australia’s.



People in this forum speculate due to countless such articles that keep coming up every few months: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 63387.html

Maybe try doing a basic google search before claiming that no proof exists
 
airboss787
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:40 pm

oceanvikram wrote:

airboss787 wrote:
The 2 orders are independent. This one is a short term order for planes to arrive over the next 6-9 months. The 300 aircraft order is a long term one that'll happen soon.


You seem to have insiders knowledge, so can you define "soon"? As in by the end of this year, Q1,Q2, Q3 or Q4 2023? (Genuine question)

If it happens "soon" and then can you confirm it will be 300 and not 275 (since they are leasing some of the NBs to be delivered in 2023)? (Genuine question)


I do not think anyone knows for a fact if it is Q1 or Q2 and so on. We only have to wait and see when they announce it. It will be done when it is done. The "soon" is subjective, given these negotiations can take months or even years.

I am not Campbell Wilson or in his team, so if the order is for 275 or 300 planes is also something I am not aware of. There is also usually not a definite number. That number may marginally go up and down depending on what they deem is necessary for their operations or the best deal they can get.

And now that they have announced the Vihaan.AI plan, it gives some idea on what they have been planning to do.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:40 pm

yashk wrote:
People in this forum speculate due to countless such articles that keep coming up every few months: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 63387.html

Maybe try doing a basic google search before claiming that no proof exists


The way I understand “clarity” in corporate language is “acceptable plan”. So the ball is in Tata’s court to make a proposal that is acceptable to Singapore Airlines Group other than that there are no discussions.

So the question begs why was there not an acceptable plan by both parties during Tata’s purchase of AI. Surely Tata’s were contractually obliged to notify Singapore Airlines Group of their intentions.

Once the purchase was completed, that should have triggered the merger of AI and UK. And then the order the NB and WB aircrafts.

I am guessing for Tata, plan A and plan B did not work out and now they are executing plan C.

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