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Virtual737
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:30 am

Silver1SWA wrote:
Want to talk about entitlement? Start with the attitudes shown here. I’ll never understand why aviation enthusiasts on an aviation forum love to consistently crap on airlines and their employees.


...because there are usually at least 2 sides to every story. This is an aviation enthusiasts site, not an airline, management or employee only site. If you can't get your message across to your customers then maybe the message needs tweaking.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:41 pm

MDC862 wrote:
You are talking if a time period 40-50 years ago when your father flew. It was his choice to go into aviation. If he missed your recital or little league game you should have had that conversation with him to choose a different industry where he could be home to listen to your complaints.
The reality is pilots are compensated extremely well for a group that can only work 1,000 hours a year. Do they miss family events, of course they do but mostly because they choose to live across country or internationaly and commute to their base. What is major term used by flight crews? Quality of life which means working less and getting paid more for sitting at home. 13 fight days is too much in their view while the rest of country works 22 days a month.
Sorry no sympathy from this corner.


You reveal a lack of knowledge of a pilot’s year when you say “only work 1,000 hours a year”. Compensation is what is agreed to in negotiations, not a gun to someone’s head, pilots are well compensated because they deliver value to the firm and their customers.
 
kiowa
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:03 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
In the airline industry, as it currently stands, airlines are squeezing every last drop out of pilots. Worked to the max. They're exhausted.



Everything you listed applies 10x to other airline employees too, especially FAs, and with less rest and a fraction of the pay. Always amuses me when Pilots attempt to get the general public to feel sorry for them.


Nobody cares when most airline employees are upset at working conditions. When pilots speak out it gets attention. They’re leading the charge for everyone.



Nobody cares about the pilots either if their flights are not affected. They are not leading a charge for anyone.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:35 pm

kiowa wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Everything you listed applies 10x to other airline employees too, especially FAs, and with less rest and a fraction of the pay. Always amuses me when Pilots attempt to get the general public to feel sorry for them.


Nobody cares when most airline employees are upset at working conditions. When pilots speak out it gets attention. They’re leading the charge for everyone.



Nobody cares about the pilots either if their flights are not affected. They are not leading a charge for anyone.


Customers are being affected! That’s what this is all about. It’s no secret that the over promised, under-delivered schedules are negatively impacting the traveling public.

Again, this attitude that employees don’t count. Other workgroups are enjoying the support because thanks to the pilots and their solidarity this is getting plenty of attention.

I’ll repeat, in the case of SWAPA, they aren’t complaining about pay. They’re calling out operational problems that impact internal and external customers.
 
AMALH747430
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:46 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:

Nobody cares when most airline employees are upset at working conditions. When pilots speak out it gets attention. They’re leading the charge for everyone.



Nobody cares about the pilots either if their flights are not affected. They are not leading a charge for anyone.


Customers are being affected! That’s what this is all about. It’s no secret that the over promised, under-delivered schedules are negatively impacting the traveling public.

Again, this attitude that employees don’t count. Other workgroups are absolutely enjoying the support because thanks to the pilots and their solidarity this is getting plenty of attention.

I’ll repeat, in the case of SWAPA, they aren’t complaining about pay. They’re calling out operational problems that impact internal and external customers.


Bingo! Southwest pilots are sounding the alarm on issues that are affecting customers every day. A company like Southwest with a sterling past reputation to trade on can sometimes get away with problems in the short term because of “brand equity.” The pilots are tying to point out that things at Southwest have changed and they’re not running the same type of operation they used to. When that traveler whose fight was recently cancelled or delayed drove down Mockingbird/Cedar Springs yesterday and saw that, you can bet that some of them got the message.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:49 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:

Nobody cares when most airline employees are upset at working conditions. When pilots speak out it gets attention. They’re leading the charge for everyone.



Nobody cares about the pilots either if their flights are not affected. They are not leading a charge for anyone.


Customers are being affected! That’s what this is all about. It’s no secret that the over promised, under-delivered schedules are negatively impacting the traveling public.

Again, this attitude that employees don’t count. Other workgroups are enjoying the support because thanks to the pilots and their solidarity this is getting plenty of attention.

I’ll repeat, in the case of SWAPA, they aren’t complaining about pay. They’re calling out operational problems that impact internal and external customers.


It’s about hiring more SWAPA pilots in order to increase SWAPA’s revenue (99% of the story) and also helping pilots have a better lifestyle (0.5% of the story) and helping WN run a better, more reliable airline (0.5% of the story).
 
Etheereal
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:03 pm

mjzair wrote:
twinotter wrote:
mjzair wrote:


Please, site examples of pilots being treated like royalty. Just want the perspective of a non pilot on this one.


Look for the thread on APC titled "What did you earn last year?". Most are in the $200-300K and righteously indignant at the unfairness of it all.


You can pay a person a million dollars a year and treat them like crap.

Salary does not equate in any way to how you are treated.

He's one of the examples mikejepp was talking about.

I only hope management takes proper care of the pilots and stop milking them dry, its gonna end terrible for everyone involved..


MDC862 wrote:
You are talking if a time period 40-50 years ago when your father flew. It was his choice to go into aviation. If he missed your recital or little league game you should have had that conversation with him to choose a different industry where he could be home to listen to your complaints.
The reality is pilots are compensated extremely well for a group that can only work 1,000 hours a year. Do they miss family events, of course they do but mostly because they choose to live across country or internationaly and commute to their base. What is major term used by flight crews? Quality of life which means working less and getting paid more for sitting at home. 13 fight days is too much in their view while the rest of country works 22 days a month.
Sorry no sympathy from this corner.

Are you even reading what you're posting? Part of the STAFFING shortage airlines are facing nowadays is because some of the STAFF no longer want to work on those conditions and LEFT.
So now that some have left for broader horizons (or spend more time with their families), you can see the actual problem.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:26 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
kiowa wrote:


Nobody cares about the pilots either if their flights are not affected. They are not leading a charge for anyone.


Customers are being affected! That’s what this is all about. It’s no secret that the over promised, under-delivered schedules are negatively impacting the traveling public.

Again, this attitude that employees don’t count. Other workgroups are enjoying the support because thanks to the pilots and their solidarity this is getting plenty of attention.

I’ll repeat, in the case of SWAPA, they aren’t complaining about pay. They’re calling out operational problems that impact internal and external customers.


It’s about hiring more SWAPA pilots in order to increase SWAPA’s revenue (99% of the story) and also helping pilots have a better lifestyle (0.5% of the story) and helping WN run a better, more reliable airline (0.5% of the story).


I think you’ll find that instead of hiring more most would be okay with just releasing a schedule that’s physically attainable.

Right now if you fix the customer experience the life of employee would improve automatically.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:36 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/23/united- ... elays.html

United cuts 50 flights from Newark hub but claims it is not from pilot shortages. Good for United! Taking the initiative (albeit only after trying to blame NK).
 
challeygat300
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:46 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
Doesn't it strike anyone else odd that labor unions were originally designed to help the working-class men and women of this country stand up to management, and now pilots who often make more than two typical american workers combined and command a multi-million aircraft and the all the people aboard lean on unions to get even more pay and an even better work schedule than most 40-hour a week workers. What next? Neurosurgeon unions?

No. I find it odd that so few unions exist today to help other working class labor groups stand up to management to help workers obtain wages that can easily support a family or, in many cases, an individual. I see no problem with the fact that a work group has united to secure a future for themselves.

Sadly years of pro-business, trickle down policy that is decidedly anti-consumer, anti-working class, anti-people has led to very few work groups and industries in the country where “typical Americans” remain united enough to force management to fairly compensate the people who actually carry out, create, and/or deliver the product or service that company sells.

And unfortunately, instead of celebrating this continued unity by these few remaining work groups and industries, many exhibit abhorrent disdain that this does not universally exist. “How dare they get a fair share of the profits of their industry when I don’t?” instead of “How do more work groups and industries move back towards a fair share of the profits being paid out to the people actually doing the thing that makes the profits instead of racing their qualities of life to the bottom in favor of ‘investors’ and ‘shareholders’?” seems to be the attitude of [especially] Americans towards any work group that isn’t their own.

And as stated above, work rules mean way more than money. “Die from forced exhaustion now, get paid 1.5x in 2 weeks” is not a sustainable.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:58 pm

Gotta love that one . . . “I can’t tell you the solution, only the problem. Those seemingly insurmountable dilemmas should be for someone else to figure out.”


Well, yeah... That's because people who are actually on the ground, so to speak, are the ones who will have to hammer out a solution or solutions. As industry outsiders (most of us), we can easily see the problems, but the actual solutions are often lost in nuance and details, federal law and contract law. The bean counters and lawyers will have to be the ones to negotiate it all out.
 
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foxecho
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:25 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/19/buttigieg-airlines-consumers-behalf-00040714

According to this link, July 4th will be the test on whether the government will intervene (in some form) via enforcement action.

Key Point: "Buttigieg said his department could take enforcement actions against airlines that fail to live up to consumer-protection standards."


Still think what Buttigieg is threatening is hilarious. The government still has been slow to hire/train new ATC controllers to help the strain in the system. What about hiring more CBP agents to fill the empty positions to allow entry into the country faster. Or hiring more TSA agents, making KCM standard for all major US airports, etc etc etc.

Yes the airlines have issues but the US govt/FAA are a major part of the problem too. Can’t just threaten fines when the many ATC delays can be attributed to staffing in various centers (Washington and JAX).


Nail on the head with this one! exactly!

Andrew
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:29 pm

mikejepp ---- nailed it. That was a brilliant, well-written post and highlights the current problem.

Like you said, the biggest complaints right now are around scheduling, not having enough reserve, awful rest / sleep cycles, and the general unpredictability of what this is doing for all parties - pilots, employees, and customers.

Its not sustainable.

There is no slack in the system - crews, airplanes, empty seats.
 
Chemist
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:13 am

I have what I think is a balanced view of things. I truly appreciate all that the pilots do, and I also appreciate the value of unions.
But I'm glad this thread started, because I was thinking along similar lines.
The unions have negotiated contracts with "work rules" - something that is unheard of in many/most non-unionized environments. Heck, I have a non-union white collar friend who had a grievance filed against him because he took a computer printout into an elevator and went down to his office to work on the data. But a union person was supposed to do that document carry so a grievance was filed against him.

So the work rules are very strict and precise and they limit what an employer can expect a union person to do at the job. So give lets grant that the airlines are scheduling unreasonably - and given how important safety is, and having non fatigued pilots - still, if the pilots are living a life as in jepp's excellent prevous example in this post - if that type of situation can occur, does that not mean that there is a gap in the "work rules" that would allow this kind of mess? And should not as an earlier poster stated - should not the pilot's union be negotiating an update to the contract that puts work rules into place that would not allow this sort of thing?
Given how much the union would complain about an airline trying to break work rules, it strikes me that the airlines are (mostly) staying within the rules that the pilots' contracts themselves allow. And that means that the pilots and the unions have missed the mark in the complete set of rules that ought to be contractually required.

It just seems like we have contracts, they are in currently in force, the pilots agreed to them, and now they're upset because the current work rules allow a difficult situation to occur.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:26 am

Chemist wrote:
Given how much the union would complain about an airline trying to break work rules, it strikes me that the airlines are (mostly) staying within the rules that the pilots' contracts themselves allow. And that means that the pilots and the unions have missed the mark in the complete set of rules that ought to be contractually required.

It just seems like we have contracts, they are in currently in force, the pilots agreed to them, and now they're upset because the current work rules allow a difficult situation to occur.


There are extreme circumstances where the rules are bent or broken for the sake of maintaining operational integrity and settled through the grievance process. Those circumstances are becoming normal and routine.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:59 am

..and to add to that....yes there are work rules, and extra pay trigger clauses that are includes as such.
The intent was to allow flexibility to the airline to be able to maintain operational integrity, at a premium, in special circumstances, to be able to reroute/holdover/reschedule crews to cover flights were deemed critical. The airline was motivated to maintain appropropriate staffing levels (scheduled and reserve) to avoid having to trigger such clauses and paying overtime rates as much as feasible. Historically a lot of that was reserved for operational recovery following major weather events / disruptions. Maybe a handful of times a year.

Right now the airlines are so chronically understaffed they are running as if such situation is normal. They will pay the premium to "force" mantadory overtime or extra flying / reroutes on scheduled days off where they can contractually do so.

The problem ultimately is that labor is at a breaking point and saying no the the intrusion on their schedules, rest/sleep, and quality of life. These people aren't available 24/7 at the beck and call of the company.

There is a middle ground. The current situation in Summer 2022 is not sustainable for all stakeholders.
 
alasizon
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:07 am

mikejepp wrote:
In the airline industry, as it currently stands, airlines are squeezing every last drop out of pilots. Worked to the max. They're exhausted. Scheduling changes are the worst... you plan your life around your schedule and then the airline destroys it.


This isn't just pilots right now - every single position in the industry is that way.

Personally, I believe the cause of the issues isn't just a lack of planning for slack - its CLT, DEN, DFW, & ATL. For the big 4 - the fact that so many crews flow through the massive hubs that are having so many issues completely wrecks the entire system. If more of the trips through the large hubs were crewed locally it would be far more supportable of an operation. The major brain drain that happened during COVID for crew scheduling and crew planning certainly isn't doing pilots or the operation any favor.

For example, for AA when over 50% of your crews each day touch DFW or CLT - when one or both of those go to hell, it screws everyone in the system.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:43 am

Jetport wrote:
Airbuser wrote:
Alaska, AA, Delta, SWA. All contracts with the unions are up for renewal. United has a new proposal that comes out Friday. Will be interesting. If it’s a good deal then the pressure will be ramped up.

Airlines are now making money so pressure will be put on the airline to get contracts settled.

There is a shortage of pilots so leverage is on the pilots side.

We are burning out. Ten years ago I flew 75-80 hours a month. Now it’s 90 or more. Schedules are built with 5 hours average of pay per day which means up to three more days on the road away from home.

Get done after 12 hours grinding out a day of rerouting, delays, weather, etc. and then have no hotel room. It gets old real quick.

You can’t call in sick for fatigue. You call in fatigued. May or may not get paid for it. Up to the airline to decide if it was legitimate.

This is just a few of the factors involved. The system is maxed out which causes more disruptions for the passengers.


From what I can gather, FAA limits are 100 hours flight time/28 days. That doesn't seem that grueling to most folks in the general public. Are poor scheduling by airlines/commutes/ground delays, etc. really so severe that 100 hours of flight time turns into 250 hours of "working" time? This is not to be critical, I think there are many other folks on here that would also like to understand this.

14 hour duty days, depending on the contract, even that can be extended under specific circumstances. 4-6 days of that, followed by junior Manning on days off, if required. It all varies greatly by company and contract. Even worse if one chooses to commute, although some carriers are now offering commuter pay and protection to keep people on board.

Ground service contractors and others like hotels have the same staffing issues as everyone else, even more due to the low pay and crappy, or no, benefits.
Add in a delay and there could be no one to meet the flight, or to put the bags on the belt.

McDonalds pays $20 an hour now in many places, and doesn’t require a drug test.

Meanwhile, Menzies or DGS(Whackenhut) begrudgingly pays $13 an hour in SOME places, and wonder why they can’t find help that speaks English and can pass a drug screen at the same time.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:47 pm

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/am ... -rcna34978

Head Pilot calls on FAA to monitor airlines that are over-scheduling.

Pilot continues..."This is a failure of management to utilize the money that was given to them by the American taxpayer to have us ready for the recovery, and we’re not," he said. "And now we’re starting to see them trying to cut corners in training."
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:54 pm

Wondering what the contingencies were for gov't to provide financial support to airlines during pandemic and the penalties proposed for not following through (?) Could investigations be done and temporary capacity regulation-penalties imposed commensurate to misappropriated funds?
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:42 pm

FAA fires back at airline management -

“People expect when they buy an airline ticket that they’ll get where they need to go safely, efficiently, reliably and affordably,” the FAA said in a statement. “After receiving $54 billion in pandemic relief to help save the airlines from mass layoffs and bankruptcy, the American people deserve to have their expectations met.”

The FAA said it has added controllers in high-traffic areas and added alternate routes to keep planes moving.

Airlines aim to shift blame for flight problems to FAA
By Associated Press
 
travaz
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:16 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
FAA fires back at airline management -

“People expect when they buy an airline ticket that they’ll get where they need to go safely, efficiently, reliably and affordably,” the FAA said in a statement. “After receiving $54 billion in pandemic relief to help save the airlines from mass layoffs and bankruptcy, the American people deserve to have their expectations met.”

The FAA said it has added controllers in high-traffic areas and added alternate routes to keep planes moving.

Airlines aim to shift blame for flight problems to FAA
By Associated Press

Sure why not start the blame game instead of getting together and trying to fix it.
 
johns624
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:55 pm

MDC862 wrote:
The reality is pilots are compensated extremely well for a group that can only work 1,000 hours a year.
No, they only FLY 1000 hours a year. Their actual "work" hours are much higher. They have to get to the airport a few hours before their flight, check weather, do planning, do a preflight, wit around between legs, etc. They are working for many more hours than you think.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:12 pm

travaz wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
FAA fires back at airline management -

“People expect when they buy an airline ticket that they’ll get where they need to go safely, efficiently, reliably and affordably,” the FAA said in a statement. “After receiving $54 billion in pandemic relief to help save the airlines from mass layoffs and bankruptcy, the American people deserve to have their expectations met.”

The FAA said it has added controllers in high-traffic areas and added alternate routes to keep planes moving.

Airlines aim to shift blame for flight problems to FAA
By Associated Press

Sure why not start the blame game instead of getting together and trying to fix it.


That's true! If airlines blame themselves, however, could it then mean that they acknowledge currently that overcapacity is the issue, and then everyone getting together to tackle that issue will run the risk of blatant collusion as carriers will most likely cut capacity so each won't compete on each other's bread and butter (?)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:18 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
No doubt pilots are most deserving of ample rest and high pay.


Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
No doubt pilots are most deserving of ample rest and high pay.


Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.



I get the gist what you are saying. But "high pay" is subjective as it should be as I do not know what that number should be. And I do not know what jobs in society you are referring to. Teachers, perhaps? If so, then I probably would agree to a certain respect so long as the "more money" wouldn't attract people just to teach for "money" sake (qualifications would have to be at a very high level as well). Furthermore, there are already professions that have "higher" pay as you have termed it. So I remain steadfast that pilots should have "high pay" and will go further to say absolutely "higher" pay if they are asked to keep airlines afloat via overtime and whimsical scheduling without any clear capacity discipline in the pipeline.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
No doubt pilots are most deserving of ample rest and high pay.


Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.


Why not pay that the market will bear? What do you consider "high pay" and "good pay"?

Would love to know what your list of jobs deserving higher pay is composed of!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
No doubt pilots are most deserving of ample rest and high pay.


Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.


Why not pay that the market will bear? What do you consider "high pay" and "good pay"?

Would love to know what your list of jobs deserving higher pay is composed of!!!


Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.
 
johns624
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.


Why not pay that the market will bear? What do you consider "high pay" and "good pay"?

Would love to know what your list of jobs deserving higher pay is composed of!!!


Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.
If you want to talk about overpaid people, start with sports stars and entertainment people.
 
mikejepp
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
No doubt pilots are most deserving of ample rest and high pay.


Ample of rest, sure, whatever science gives us is safe. They deserve good pay, not high pay. I think there are far more jobs deserving a higher pay in society than pilots.


There is a massive shortage of pilots currently. The major force that determines pilot pay is, above negotiating/unions/etc, supply and demand. That would then imply that pilots are currently seriously underpaid.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.



But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:16 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.



But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!


I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.



But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!


I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


But with do respect, you are using the awesome country of the Netherlands as basis for your opinion on a subject that for the most part extends beyond that border.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:27 pm

Pilots, like every other worker, are worth exactly what the buyer deems reasonable, totally unrelated to their standing in the income distribution. In the US, lots of pilots at legacy carriers (Big 3+WN, UPS and FDX) make north of $400,000. Heck, FDX and probably UPS had a few break 7 figures. If the company believes itheir worth, they’re worth it. They showed profits, so Society believes the service is worth it. Loads of celebrities make tens of millions a year—no one beats them up over it.

I would say NL pilots, if the figure is €130,000-ish are grossly underpaid by US standards.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:02 am

Dutchy wrote:

I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


True, you did. However, that is not what I asked you. What professions do you think should be paid more and how do you decide? As has been pointed out by several posts, the market will determine what people should be paid. Back in the stone age, I left the military and went to work for an airline that had a red tail. In my first year, my probation year, if you just look at hard flying hours, I barely made $15/hour. Was that in line with your pay for a professional pilot?

Show me a profession where what you say and do in your workplace is monitored, where your career is put on the line with things such as medicals every six months, OPCs and LPCs, random drug and alcohol testing, and the list goes on and on. Before you reply, I realize there are other professions that are subject to parts of this but very few that are subject to all. Even the US' highest court, the Supreme Court, is not subject to those testing regimes. (Perhaps after the last two controversial decisions, they should be!)
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.



But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!


I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


People are always so quick to suggest that individuals in other professions are overpaid, yet remain silent on their own professional compensation.
As many have already stated, the market determines the value of goods and services. Most recently, the market has determined that regional pilots are grossly underpaid. These pay increases during the good times, however, quickly turn into pay cuts and furloughs when we hit economic turbulence. As they say, “make hay while the sun shines!”
 
N766UA
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:25 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
How many signs held by SWAPA yesterday were exclusively about pilots and their pay/needs?

Want to talk about entitlement? Start with the attitudes shown here. I’ll never understand why aviation enthusiasts on an aviation forum love to consistently crap on airlines and their employees.


That’s why you need to leave this forum; all professional pilots do. I don’t engage with “airplane dorks” anymore, save a post here or there. I’ve never met an odder group of people: on the one hand making everything about their life revolve around your industry, and on the other hand hating on you constantly. Talk about prima donas; can you imagine arguing with someone about their actual career because you sit around and play a simulator at home sometimes? Or because you stand in the grass and *watch* their job? It’s not worth the hassle explaining this stuff to people like that, man.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:38 pm

It's a two way street. Airlines did not share a nickel of Pre-Covid billions in profit that they were not obligated to. They used it for stock buybacks and bonuses to management. In early covid airlines did everything they could to get bailouts AND get rid of employees. Now, post(ish) covid, they see money they could be making by flying outside what is operationally reasonable and are squeezing their employees to get it. Pilots deserve the large gains they will get now and it isn't the pilots being greedy it's on the mismanagement that has gone on for years.
 
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tb727
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, in the Netherland, around 5% of all employees get paid more than 100.000euro's. Pilots as a group are paid in the region of 130.000 - 150.000 on average. I do no think they are in the top 5% of jobs that society needs. So I see a mismatch there.



But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!


I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:39 pm

To me, the discussion of whether pilots are underpaid or overpaid is asinine. We’re in the midst of a long term, growing pilot shortage. The reality is that the pilot career and lifestyle, inclusive of compensation, is not attractive enough - especially the high cost of entry for non-military. The market speaks.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:06 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


True, you did. However, that is not what I asked you. What professions do you think should be paid more and how do you decide? As has been pointed out by several posts, the market will determine what people should be paid. Back in the stone age, I left the military and went to work for an airline that had a red tail. In my first year, my probation year, if you just look at hard flying hours, I barely made $15/hour. Was that in line with your pay for a professional pilot?

Show me a profession where what you say and do in your workplace is monitored, where your career is put on the line with things such as medicals every six months, OPCs and LPCs, random drug and alcohol testing, and the list goes on and on. Before you reply, I realize there are other professions that are subject to parts of this but very few that are subject to all. Even the US' highest court, the Supreme Court, is not subject to those testing regimes. (Perhaps after the last two controversial decisions, they should be!)


I think in the west there is indeed something wrong with the way compensation is distributed. Pilots are one of the prime examples of this. I have had some discussions at length with some pilots on this subject and in the end, they have had admitted that a lot of the high compensation comes from the way they have unionized and thus their bargaining powers, and the way has done this in the last 70 years or so. And being a union and a representative for the profession does help in increasing the bargaining powers.
Nothing you have mentioned justifies this, not even when seen in conjunction.

The $15/hour is not good at all, so it should not be allowed, because it causes problems in its own.

Given the level of complexity, the level of security, the level of working life, I think it should be a little above the average pay. Not at the absolute top. One should look at how much society benefits from a certain job and how much it costs, in that respect, pilots cost society money given these levels of wages.

Given all this, I think there is a great incentive to move forward with single-pilot operations. Don't know if Airbus is moving ahead with this.

And yeah, I know it is an inconvenient truth, and I know it is an unpopular stand to make, especially for professional pilots. But there you go, this is how I feel about the level of compensation and how I reached that conclusion. Do with it what you like, it is not a personal attack on you, one is only part of a system right and enjoy your standard of living.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:07 pm

tb727 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:


But, you didn't answer my questions. I can get statistics if I want, but I asked for your opinions!


I offered you my opinion. I do not think they should be among the 5% of the top-paid jobs in society.


Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


You forgot to give the right credits to The Dude. :lol:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:33 pm

Unionization is, indeed, a large part of the reason for pilot’s high incomes, but the downside is it creates a “winner-take-all” market. Many will do nearly anything to get the golden ring—hence pay to fly schemes, large cost of training, low wages in the entry levels. A freer market would level out the income structure, a lot. American doctors are much the same, as I understand it, compared to European doctors. Our doctors start in the $300,000 range, usually with $500,000 or more in debt, plus slave wages during residency
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:28 pm

https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-lay ... very-plan/

Air Canada outlines a "Recovery Plan."
U.S. Airlines should be required to publish their own. Would be a good start on accountability and identifying things that work and do not work.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:13 pm

tlecam wrote:
To me, the discussion of whether pilots are underpaid or overpaid is asinine. We’re in the midst of a long term, growing pilot shortage. The reality is that the pilot career and lifestyle, inclusive of compensation, is not attractive enough - especially the high cost of entry for non-military. The market speaks.

This simplifies it. For those currently mainline pilots, life will improve (incomes will go up and the unions will be able to mitigate the pressure to excessive work hours). The issue is the cost of entry. I personally suspect the ATP rules (so called 1500 hour rule) will have to be modified to keep small cities on the map. Perhaps structured cadet programs? More flight simulator time? I do not claim to know the answer, but how it was for pilots will not continue. The future is uncertain. The market will speak.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:17 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-lays-out-key-steps-in-aviation-recovery-plan/

Air Canada outlines a "Recovery Plan."
U.S. Airlines should be required to publish their own. Would be a good start on accountability and identifying things that work and do not work.

What does that have to do with pilots? I read the article on recalling laid off workers, hiring, and increasing connection times.

What their is a shortage of is ATP qualified pilots certified on at least the 737 or A320 (soon we could add A220 to that list).

Lightsaber
 
TYWoolman
Topic Author
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Re: Pilots' open letters to the public & picketing at airports

Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-lays-out-key-steps-in-aviation-recovery-plan/

Air Canada outlines a "Recovery Plan."
U.S. Airlines should be required to publish their own. Would be a good start on accountability and identifying things that work and do not work.

What does that have to do with pilots? I read the article on recalling laid off workers, hiring, and increasing connection times.

What their is a shortage of is ATP qualified pilots certified on at least the 737 or A320 (soon we could add A220 to that list).

Lightsaber


Well airlines need to adjust their operations within that reality of pilot shortages, including capacity discipline. More workers, hiring and increasing connection times may be a small part but do contribute to a smoother operation for pilots. If and when airlines are required to publish their plans (perhaps each quarter) going forward, it will be easier to identify what airlines are living in a fantasy world and which airlines have a plan in place to mitigate or ameliorate the issues affecting their pilots. Pilots are looking for stability, short-term, and viability long-term. The shortage of pilots short-term is exacerbated when airlines have plans to add more "airline" than their "framework/pilots" allow. Publishing this kind of plan (at least for the next couple of years) should be a part of good corporate governance, especially when it affects the souls in the front of the plane.

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