DCA350 wrote:I've never understood why Hamburg has struggled to stand on its own as far long haul international flights.. It's a huge catchment that's among the wealthiest in Germany. Yet for some reason the locals have no problems with the status quo and glady connect via FRA or MUC when they go long haul.. Guess I'm being the ignorant American but its surprising to say the least.. I would think it could sustain at least a Manchester/MAN sized operation given its size and wealth..
The Problem is that Lufthansa/Star Alliance is extremely strong in Germany and Hamburg too, like 70%+ of the high yielding frequent Business travelers have a Lufthansa or Star Alliance Status and are very loyal. When Continental served the route they were sucessful but never managed to get a share of more than around 1/3 of the total HAM-NYC traffic and only around 20% of the total HAM-USA traffic. The loyal Lufthansa customers continued to fly via FRA, they did not want to give up their Status.
When Continental switched to Star and then merged into United the share of total traffic the flight moved rose slightly but then of course was limited by the small capacity of the 757 (15 seats in Business while there are least 45 Business passengers everyday from HAM to NYC, COVID aside, without any nonstop flights).
When Emirates flew the route many of the LH frequent Flyers tried the service and they were absolutely amazed by the product, obviously. Compared to a 2006 Lufthansa Business product the Emirates product was out of this World. But most of them also said as amazing as this experience was they would not give up their LH Status for this, the unattractive departure/arrival times were one reason too.
So to force United back to HAM these Frequent Status flyers would have to give up their status or not take advantage of it and consequently fly to the USA with Icelandair, or Aer Lingus or whatever. Or all fly on KLM/Delta which would result Delta to fly to HAM pretty quick but then their status is useless.
Lufthansa has Hamburg in their hands ... What it needs is either a Star Alliance Airline (United) with a good product and reliable yearround service - but Lufthansa will do their best do prevent this - or an Airline from another Alliance (Delta, American) or even indepedent (JetBlue) that has an amazing product, reliable yearround service and attractive departure times. This would enable to steal at least a fraction of the LH passengers, enough to make the flight work. Continental was sucessful in this back in 2005, still in SkyTeam then, when Overall traffic was way below todays.
SueD wrote:Both mentioned airports suffer the same disrespect from their national airlines when it’s comes to long haul to be honest.
German bilateral arrangements outside the single market areas remain pretty restrictive ( similar to Canada in many ways)
Hamburg has seen medium/ long haul operations over the years including to Japan and yes the US , even Iran
The restrictive bilaterals certainly adversely effect both Hamburg and Berlin yet benefit the hegemony and cabals of Frankfurt and Munich !
Compare that to Manchester well that airport operator has upfront driving changes in UK bilateral arrangements for the best part of half a century.
The UK now has some of the most liberals bilateral anywhere ( Caveat Brexit damage self destruction removing us from the EU free market area !)
There have been many successes and even more regrettably failures along the road .
Consolidation and alliances have reduced the developments at both in recent years thats the reality of the way the industry works today .
As for the big three US carrier’s, it’s quite evident they have little interest in operating secondary European routes these days and would rather fly ninety twelve shuttles to from the hubs to their alliance partners and allow them to do the short lifts than operate themselves.
COVID19 aside and the German bilateral I would have expected Hamburg to have received a Chinese flight ( not the temporarily operated triangle China Eastern service a few seasons back) by now . The belly would be full of freight !
So true, Alliances and Joint Ventures were poison for Airports like Hamburg, Berlin etc. Before Millenium Hamburg most of the time had at least several long haul flights in several directions (mainly North America, but also Asia and Africa), after the Alliances came there was "only" the long lasting Continental/United flight from EWR, the last months of Deltas service to HAM, seasonal airtransat from Toronto and Canada 3000 from various cities for years, Emirates of course and Iran Air, they serve Hamburg since 1992, but this is mainly due to a large iranian Population in Hamburg. Oh and there was Ghana Airways with their beautiful DC-10s ... They went bankrupt unfortunately.
Regarding China youre right, Hamburg would have seen a China flight since at least 15 years if there were Traffic rights for Chinese Airlines, and If the 787 was ontime.
In Summer 2008 Shanghai Airlines wanted to launch Hamburg flights with the 787, but as most know the 787s were not delivered. Then the financial crisis came ... Shanghai Airlines never flew to Europe I think. Back then there still seemed to be available frequencies for Chinese Airlines to Germany.
Around 2009/2010 China Eastern wanted to serve Hamburg, but the bilateral did not allow for more flights, so they went one-stop via FRA with a very low frequency ... Well, this had to fail.
Hainan too has/had lots of interest to fly to HAM, in around 2014/2015 they even applied at the CAAC for permission to switch two weekly frequencies from Berlin to Hamburg, I dont know how this worked out but obviously hasnt worked.
Lufthansa still blocks nonstop flights from China to Hamburg which would be very sucessful COVID aside. In terms of Business Traffic but also Cargo.
At least as promising or even more promising would be a Singapore Airlines flight SIN-HAM -- but there is Lufthansa again preventing this.
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