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DLHAM
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Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:11 pm

At the Berlin Air Show Emirates CEO Tim Clark said, in the context of the German Government(=Lufthansa) still denying Emirates to receive rights to fly to Berlin, they mull to use their existing 5th freedom rights to fly from Germany to the USA again, named HAM-JFK as an example.

https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/1539920697878781953?s=20&t=6fiPkuC_DjbjgsfR3c2XSQ

The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.
5th freedom flights to the US are very interesting on the other hand, HAM-NYC would be a big opportunity. They already serve HAM since 16 years, have infrastructure here, a huge lounge, lots of loyal customers and a extremely good Reputation. HAM-NYC (and USA in general) is a huge market that currently is completely unserved in terms of direct flights.

Yes, they already served that route from 2006-2008, but a lot of things were different and much has changed:

- Passenger Volume between Europe and the US has at least doubled since then

- Emirates had only one single flight between DXB and HAM back then which was not enough capacity, more flights were not possible due to aircraft shortage and the Transit Passengers (+Transit Cargo!) DXB-HAM-JFK blocked even more capacity on DXB-HAM. Now they have two flights DXB-HAM and could even add a third one, so the imbalance between capacity and demand DXB-HAM vs HAM-NYC is not a big problem anymore

- they had strong competition by Continental, they had way more attractive Take-Off times, a lot of connectivity at EWR and were Part of an Alliance, now there is no competition at all with more Passenger demand

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way

- by adding a third flight DXB-HAM and extending this one to JFK the flying times would be much more attractive, dep HAM around 10am, arr JFK around 12.30pm, dep JFK around 6.30pm to get back to HAM at around 8am. In 2006 passengers would arrive at JFK in the evening and Hamburg in the afternoon

- soon Emirates will receive A350 and also 787s, aircraft that are more efficient and have less capacity than the 777-300ER, perfect to start such routes.

Apart from this with the likelihood of Qatar Airways showing up at HAM sooner or later Emirates would offer a real advantage over Qatar at HAM.
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.

Image
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:38 pm

As living about 100mi north-northwest from HAM, I would love to see EK reinstates the HAM-JFK leg.

But honestly ...

DLHAM wrote:
HAM-NYC (and USA in general) is a huge market that currently is completely unserved in terms of direct flights.


... the market is really not that huge. The US3 always struggled to make such flight work. The appearance of the A321XLR might change it through. But I don't see the market for a daily widebody like 767 or bigger, sadly. And with the ongoing Ukraine and energy crisis, the future will be tough.

DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


I don't think so. There will be a point when Lufthansa have to surrender. After stepping away from Russia and China, Germany needs new trading partners in the middle east. Refusing a EK flight to BER and more flights to Germany from the UAE and Qatar will not work anymore then.
 
3D101CA
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:52 pm

I have a question about the fifth freedom routes from Europe to the USA that EK operates, since it is related to this.

What fills up the MXP-JFK leg for EK? Passengers continuing from DXB or the local market from Milan itself? The MXP-JFK service seems to work for EK, just wondering what market it serves.

Continental launched EWR-HAM back in 2004 I believe with the 757-200, the route was kept for a time after the merger with United and was even flown with the 767-300. But soon enough, it was cut and it hasn't returned since. Could UA relaunch the route with a 757 again or use an A321XLR for the route in the future since it's a smaller aircraft, or is that not in the plans?

EK itself failed on HAM-JFK before. With not enough traffic continuing on from DXB to JFK via HAM on EK, and a small local market from Hamburg itself to New York, it's hard to see a DXB-HAM-JFK service on EK be successful again for a second time in my opinion.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:56 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
As living about 100mi north-northwest from HAM, I would love to see EK reinstates the HAM-JFK leg.


So you live in/near Sylt 8-) .

Ronaldo747 wrote:
... the market is really not that huge. The US3 always struggled to make such flight work. The appearance of the A321XLR might change it through. But I don't see the market for a daily widebody like 767 or bigger, sadly. And with the ongoing Ukraine and energy crisis, the future will be tough.


One of the largest unserved between the USA and Europe. Continental and United were sucessful in HAM for much more than 10 years until certain circumstances changed. Delta also served HAM for a whole decade until, again, certain circumstances changed. :|
Of course the XLR is the perfect tool for USA-HAM, but with Emirates operating HAM-NYC around 1/3 of the capacity would be occupied by transit passengers, which lowers the amout of saleable seats to below 200 (assuming an A350 flies that route). Also Emirates, also at HAM, is very strong with Cargo. The XLR will not be the big Cargo hauler -- Advantage for Emirates.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:04 pm

3D101CA wrote:
I have a question about the fifth freedom routes from Europe to the USA that EK operates, since it is related to this.

What fills up the MXP-JFK leg for EK? Passengers continuing from DXB or the local market from Milan itself? The MXP-JFK service seems to work for EK, just wondering what market it serves.

Continental launched EWR-HAM back in 2004 I believe with the 757-200, the route was kept for a time after the merger with United and was even flown with the 767-300. But soon enough, it was cut and it hasn't returned since. Could UA relaunch the route with a 757 again or use an A321XLR for the route in the future since it's a smaller aircraft, or is that not in the plans?

EK itself failed on HAM-JFK before. With not enough traffic continuing on from DXB to JFK via HAM on EK, and a small local market from Hamburg itself to New York, it's hard to see a DXB-HAM-JFK service on EK be successful again for a second time in my opinion.


DXB-HAM-JFK had somewhere around 1/4 to way more than 1/3 Transit Passengers on Board. I think the MXP flight is more or less similar, 2/3 serving MXP-JFK and the rest from Dubai.

United operated the HAM flight long after the merger, and with the XLR I am sure they will return. Launching that flight before the XLR becomes reality with the 757 would be a smart move because it could prevent a competitor from entering the market before UA receives their XLR (AA!) but I dont know if this happens.

I wrote in the original Post why Emirates would have much better better chances today because most circumstances have completely changed. Also one reason why they stopped the flight back then was politics.

And no the Market between HAM and NYC is not small, not small at all. The Main issue is that Lufthansa/Star owns most of that market. To be sucessful an Airline needs a really good product to steal passengers from Lufthansa. Also with that Continental/United 757 the market was always underserved after Emirates quit.
Last edited by DLHAM on Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
asuflyer
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:08 pm

3D101CA wrote:
I have a question about the fifth freedom routes from Europe to the USA that EK operates, since it is related to this.

What fills up the MXP-JFK leg for EK? Passengers continuing from DXB or the local market from Milan itself? The MXP-JFK service seems to work for EK, just wondering what market it serves.


MXP-JFK is a huge market, the flight is almost all O&D pax. Strong business ties between Milan and NYC in banking, design & textiles, fashion, food industries. Also VFR pax connecting to other parts of Italy, large Italian-American population in NYC/NJ area, lots of cargo on this route too. It is a well-established route by now and EK has developed a very good reputation on this route.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm

3D101CA wrote:
I have a question about the fifth freedom routes from Europe to the USA that EK operates, since it is related to this.

What fills up the MXP-JFK leg for EK? Passengers continuing from DXB or the local market from Milan itself? The MXP-JFK service seems to work for EK, just wondering what market it serves.

I'd guess all of the above plus B6 connections at JFK. My wife does a lot of business in Italy and it wasn't unusual for her and her co-workers to fly BOS-JFK-MXP with B6/EK.
 
SueD
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:41 pm

DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way

Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !

You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:46 pm

SueD wrote:
DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way

Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !

You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


Calm down. No big problem if JetBlue cannot put their code on that flight -- the most important thing is that Emirates could offer connections from JFK via JetBlue flights on one booking, this should be possible If this is also possible from MXP?!
 
RJNUT
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:02 pm

DLHAM wrote:
SueD wrote:
DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way

Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !

You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


Calm down. No big problem if JetBlue cannot put their code on that flight -- the most important thing is that Emirates could offer connections from JFK via JetBlue flights on one booking, this should be possible If this is also possible from MXP?!
I've seen "beyond "connections from MXP to N Africa and Mediteranean area using interline with Aegean, Egyptair air and a few others. and on the US end , of course B6 interline to EK
 
edealinfo
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:48 am

SueD wrote:
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


They DO have fifth freedom to operate HAM - JFK!
 
edealinfo
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:51 am

DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)
 
edealinfo
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:53 am

3D101CA wrote:

What fills up the MXP-JFK leg for EK? Passengers continuing from DXB or the local market from Milan itself? .


I though a lot of Indians take this on their way to India. It's 3 stops on Emirates to India through MXP but is cheaper than their JFK-DXB-India 2 stop option
 
edealinfo
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 am

DLHAM wrote:
Launching that flight before the XLR becomes reality with the 757 would be a smart move because it could prevent a competitor from entering the market before UA receives their XLR (AA!) but I dont know if this happens.
.


I don't think it matters about the first entrant. Generally speaking, Passengers will choose the cheapest option when two airlines are roughly comparable.
 
santi319
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:29 am

edealinfo wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)

Im sorry what? Budapest is nowhere near close to Dusseldorf..
 
a320fan
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:45 am

edealinfo wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)

30 minutes? Try 12 hours!
 
SueD
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:46 am

edealinfo wrote:
SueD wrote:
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


They DO have fifth freedom to operate HAM - JFK!


The fifth freedom for Emirates isn’t what I am commenting about more rather the potential for B6 to codeshare raised by another - They can not !
Now of course they can interline with Emirates on separate dockets that’s not disputed , however JetBlue can not gain revenue from the Atlantic sector .

Neither can Singapore codeshare from Frankfurt or Manchester with Lufthansa or United
 
SueD
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:50 am

RJNUT wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
SueD wrote:
DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way

Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !

You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


Calm down. No big problem if JetBlue cannot put their code on that flight -- the most important thing is that Emirates could offer connections from JFK via JetBlue flights on one booking, this should be possible If this is also possible from MXP?!
I've seen "beyond "connections from MXP to N Africa and Mediteranean area using interline with Aegean, Egyptair air and a few others. and on the US end , of course B6 interline to EK


Interlining on dockets is NOT code-sharing - Quite different, and of course the consolidators sell all sorts of combinations yet issues them on separate dockets .
Other than brokerage fees neither carrier shares any risk of revenue on the separate sectors .
 
SueD
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:55 am

edealinfo wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)


More like twelve hours or Railjet overnight sleeper train ride !!!
 
fraspotter
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:23 am

edealinfo wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)


Completely different directions. Hungary is SE of Germany on the other side of Austria. DUS is in western Germany close to the Dutch/Luxembourg border. Though a train that could go from Budapest to DUS in 30 minutes would be insane! :D
 
DCA350
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:19 am

I've never understood why Hamburg has struggled to stand on its own as far long haul international flights.. It's a huge catchment that's among the wealthiest in Germany. Yet for some reason the locals have no problems with the status quo and glady connect via FRA or MUC when they go long haul.. Guess I'm being the ignorant American but its surprising to say the least.. I would think it could sustain at least a Manchester/MAN sized operation given its size and wealth..
 
max999
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:36 am

DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.
 
SueD
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am

DCA350 wrote:
I've never understood why Hamburg has struggled to stand on its own as far long haul international flights.. It's a huge catchment that's among the wealthiest in Germany. Yet for some reason the locals have no problems with the status quo and glady connect via FRA or MUC when they go long haul.. Guess I'm being the ignorant American but its surprising to say the least.. I would think it could sustain at least a Manchester/MAN sized operation given its size and wealth..


Both mentioned airports suffer the same disrespect from their national airlines when it’s comes to long haul to be honest.

German bilateral arrangements outside the single market areas remain pretty restrictive ( similar to Canada in many ways)

Hamburg has seen medium/ long haul operations over the years including to Japan and yes the US , even Iran

The restrictive bilaterals certainly adversely effect both Hamburg and Berlin yet benefit the hegemony and cabals of Frankfurt and Munich !

Compare that to Manchester well that airport operator has upfront driving changes in UK bilateral arrangements for the best part of half a century.
The UK now has some of the most liberals bilateral anywhere ( Caveat Brexit damage self destruction removing us from the EU free market area !)

There have been many successes and even more regrettably failures along the road .

Consolidation and alliances have reduced the developments at both in recent years thats the reality of the way the industry works today .

As for the big three US carrier’s, it’s quite evident they have little interest in operating secondary European routes these days and would rather fly ninety twelve shuttles to from the hubs to their alliance partners and allow them to do the short lifts than operate themselves.

COVID19 aside and the German bilateral I would have expected Hamburg to have received a Chinese flight ( not the temporarily operated triangle China Eastern service a few seasons back) by now . The belly would be full of freight !
 
SueD
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:02 am

max999 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


Sort of agree - this harks back to the seventies in many ways .
The UK for instance had a similar restrictive hegemony by BA for many years, however concerted effort by regional airports and indeed foreign carriers punched massive holes in that over the years - Singapore, Cathay Pacific and American ( Not the carrier of today focused on Texas! Texas and yeah Texas) were among the leaders in breaking the BA stranglehold several decades ago.

It does surprise that the German Federal State systems seem unable to out manoeuvre the national transportation authorities here !
 
77XdelayImcarl
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:37 am

max999 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


And what would the Cartel Office do? Tell EK that their government has to get a better bilateral with Germany. Or that they can switch from one of the other 4 airports in germany. Wonder why they see DUS FRA HAM MUC as more important than BER.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:12 am

DCA350 wrote:
I've never understood why Hamburg has struggled to stand on its own as far long haul international flights.. It's a huge catchment that's among the wealthiest in Germany. Yet for some reason the locals have no problems with the status quo and glady connect via FRA or MUC when they go long haul.. Guess I'm being the ignorant American but its surprising to say the least.. I would think it could sustain at least a Manchester/MAN sized operation given its size and wealth..


The Problem is that Lufthansa/Star Alliance is extremely strong in Germany and Hamburg too, like 70%+ of the high yielding frequent Business travelers have a Lufthansa or Star Alliance Status and are very loyal. When Continental served the route they were sucessful but never managed to get a share of more than around 1/3 of the total HAM-NYC traffic and only around 20% of the total HAM-USA traffic. The loyal Lufthansa customers continued to fly via FRA, they did not want to give up their Status.

When Continental switched to Star and then merged into United the share of total traffic the flight moved rose slightly but then of course was limited by the small capacity of the 757 (15 seats in Business while there are least 45 Business passengers everyday from HAM to NYC, COVID aside, without any nonstop flights).
When Emirates flew the route many of the LH frequent Flyers tried the service and they were absolutely amazed by the product, obviously. Compared to a 2006 Lufthansa Business product the Emirates product was out of this World. But most of them also said as amazing as this experience was they would not give up their LH Status for this, the unattractive departure/arrival times were one reason too.

So to force United back to HAM these Frequent Status flyers would have to give up their status or not take advantage of it and consequently fly to the USA with Icelandair, or Aer Lingus or whatever. Or all fly on KLM/Delta which would result Delta to fly to HAM pretty quick but then their status is useless.

Lufthansa has Hamburg in their hands ... What it needs is either a Star Alliance Airline (United) with a good product and reliable yearround service - but Lufthansa will do their best do prevent this - or an Airline from another Alliance (Delta, American) or even indepedent (JetBlue) that has an amazing product, reliable yearround service and attractive departure times. This would enable to steal at least a fraction of the LH passengers, enough to make the flight work. Continental was sucessful in this back in 2005, still in SkyTeam then, when Overall traffic was way below todays.


SueD wrote:
Both mentioned airports suffer the same disrespect from their national airlines when it’s comes to long haul to be honest.

German bilateral arrangements outside the single market areas remain pretty restrictive ( similar to Canada in many ways)

Hamburg has seen medium/ long haul operations over the years including to Japan and yes the US , even Iran

The restrictive bilaterals certainly adversely effect both Hamburg and Berlin yet benefit the hegemony and cabals of Frankfurt and Munich !

Compare that to Manchester well that airport operator has upfront driving changes in UK bilateral arrangements for the best part of half a century.
The UK now has some of the most liberals bilateral anywhere ( Caveat Brexit damage self destruction removing us from the EU free market area !)

There have been many successes and even more regrettably failures along the road .

Consolidation and alliances have reduced the developments at both in recent years thats the reality of the way the industry works today .

As for the big three US carrier’s, it’s quite evident they have little interest in operating secondary European routes these days and would rather fly ninety twelve shuttles to from the hubs to their alliance partners and allow them to do the short lifts than operate themselves.

COVID19 aside and the German bilateral I would have expected Hamburg to have received a Chinese flight ( not the temporarily operated triangle China Eastern service a few seasons back) by now . The belly would be full of freight !


So true, Alliances and Joint Ventures were poison for Airports like Hamburg, Berlin etc. Before Millenium Hamburg most of the time had at least several long haul flights in several directions (mainly North America, but also Asia and Africa), after the Alliances came there was "only" the long lasting Continental/United flight from EWR, the last months of Deltas service to HAM, seasonal airtransat from Toronto and Canada 3000 from various cities for years, Emirates of course and Iran Air, they serve Hamburg since 1992, but this is mainly due to a large iranian Population in Hamburg. Oh and there was Ghana Airways with their beautiful DC-10s ... They went bankrupt unfortunately.

Regarding China youre right, Hamburg would have seen a China flight since at least 15 years if there were Traffic rights for Chinese Airlines, and If the 787 was ontime.

In Summer 2008 Shanghai Airlines wanted to launch Hamburg flights with the 787, but as most know the 787s were not delivered. Then the financial crisis came ... Shanghai Airlines never flew to Europe I think. Back then there still seemed to be available frequencies for Chinese Airlines to Germany.

Around 2009/2010 China Eastern wanted to serve Hamburg, but the bilateral did not allow for more flights, so they went one-stop via FRA with a very low frequency ... Well, this had to fail.

Hainan too has/had lots of interest to fly to HAM, in around 2014/2015 they even applied at the CAAC for permission to switch two weekly frequencies from Berlin to Hamburg, I dont know how this worked out but obviously hasnt worked.

Lufthansa still blocks nonstop flights from China to Hamburg which would be very sucessful COVID aside. In terms of Business Traffic but also Cargo.

At least as promising or even more promising would be a Singapore Airlines flight SIN-HAM -- but there is Lufthansa again preventing this.
 
masi1157
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:22 am

max999 wrote:
The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


It seems that story never becomes boring enough.

DCA350 wrote:
Yet for some reason the locals have no problems with the status quo and glady connect via FRA or MUC when they go long haul..


I'm ok with connecting in LHR, AMS, CDG, ZRH, VIE, WAW, CPH. And yes, sometimes even FRA or MUC. Rather than long haul I would appreciate some more non-stop european flights from HAM and a few more airlines than basically just EW and FR to fly there.


Gruß, masi1157
 
superjeff
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:57 am

Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:03 pm

a320fan wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
DXB-DUS-JFK would be a possibility too of course but I think Hamburg is more promising, especially because there is less competition and no other huge Airports in the catchment.


Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)

30 minutes? Try 12 hours!


Yikes, I mixed up Dresden with Dusseldorf, and yes, Dresden is like a 30 min ride from Prague not Budapest. So, I screwed up twice.

Emirates did consider DXB - BUD -JFK.
Last edited by edealinfo on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
santi319
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:04 pm

max999 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


They allowed Norse, beginning this summer from BER to North America..
 
masi1157
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:08 pm

superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)?


Second after Berlin.


Gruß, masi1157
 
airbazar
Posts: 10771
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:09 pm

superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.

LH/UA/AC will never do it until the competition does it. With no TATL competition out of HAM, those airlines who share a TATL JV have no incentive to offer any TATL flights from HAM.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:13 pm

masi1157 wrote:
[

Gruß


What is the 4th letter that looks like a "B" and how is it pronounced? Is it a German character/letter?
 
masi1157
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
What is the 4th letter that looks like a "B" and how is it pronounced? Is it a German character/letter?


It is a german letter that we call "s-z" or "sharp s". It is pronounced more or less like that. You have it after long and accented vovels, otherwise it becomes "ss"


Gruß, masi1157
 
SueD
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:53 pm

santi319 wrote:
max999 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


They allowed Norse, beginning this summer from BER to North America..


Although Norse are Norwegian the country is an EEA member, EU affiliate and Schengen treaty state and is covered by the EU-US Openskys treaty.
Such that the German authorities and Lufthansa cannot prevent them operating from any EU airport to any US airport caveat available slots .
 
SueD
Posts: 336
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 pm

airbazar wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.

LH/UA/AC will never do it until the competition does it. With no TATL competition out of HAM, those airlines who share a TATL JV have no incentive to offer any TATL flights from HAM.


Correctly stated - Evidence would suggest if Delta were to return, Eurowings Discovery would initiate a spoiler
 
Cxtl1na
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:19 pm

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:12 pm

If Pan Am existed today one could say that they'd be flying JFK-HAM. I have the certain impression it was a successful route for them.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5167
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:48 pm

SueD wrote:
DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way
Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place
Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!

Probably because it is wrong!
EK CAN code share with US airlines [from a traffic rights point of view]
The UAE has Open Sky's agreement with USA, so they can code share with any US airline. The EU - US agreement is irrelevant to EK. Unless the EU - UAE agreement has code share restrictions [which I doubt, but don't know] EK is good to go from the EU point of view because it already has 5th freedom rights.
The reason that the EU - USA is irrelevant is that is not the way air service agreements work. In this specific case EK has fifth freedom rights from the EU - UAE agreement and from the UAE - USA agreement. The EU - USA agreement does not apply to EK as it has traffic rights [including 5th] from both EU & USA, which they do. Unless either one of the agreements with the UAE has code share restriction in them there is no problem.
The point with 5th freedom rights is that they apply between the relevant countries separately. The middle country has no say UNLESS such restriction are written in to one of the agreement with the airlines home country, which AFAIK is not the case here.

Gemuser
 
SueD
Posts: 336
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:58 pm

Cxtl1na wrote:
If Pan Am existed today one could say that they'd be flying JFK-HAM. I have the certain impression it was a successful route for them.


With current market dynamics the wall and flight corridor to Berlin gone (they the designated allied carrier) combined with NATO draw down in the early part of this century, the rise of the alliances, the answer to the hypothesis would be in the negative.
Pan Am would have almost certainly left anyway.
 
fraT
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:16 pm

SueD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.

LH/UA/AC will never do it until the competition does it. With no TATL competition out of HAM, those airlines who share a TATL JV have no incentive to offer any TATL flights from HAM.


Correctly stated - Evidence would suggest if Delta were to return, Eurowings Discovery would initiate a spoiler


I would rather think that UA would announce the route 10 Minutes after DL did so... ;-)
 
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DLHAM
Topic Author
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.


Number two in Germany after Berlin and number 7 in die EU just after Vienna and just above Warzaw.
The train ride to Frankfurt is around four hours, in crowded trains with all the bags and stuff, few people do this.


santi319 wrote:
max999 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The never ending story of Emirates rights to Berlin, I think this will never happen as long as Lufthansa exists.


The German Federal Cartel Office should examine the federal government's collusion with LH to support LH's anti competitive behaviors. I find it criminal in how LH refuses to offer long haul flights from Berlin, and at the same time, the Transport Ministry refuses to allow EK rights to fly to Berlin.


They allowed Norse, beginning this summer from BER to North America..


They cant prevent them due to Open Skies. But they can prevent from other countries where there is no Open Skies.


Cxtl1na wrote:
If Pan Am existed today one could say that they'd be flying JFK-HAM. I have the certain impression it was a successful route for them.


At least they operated the Route nonstop from 1985 until the sad end, then Delta continued to operate the Route, next to the Atlanta flight, for many more years.
 
runway23
Posts: 2462
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:07 pm

SueD wrote:
Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !


You should stop pointing out things that are 100% wrong. B6 and EK have a codeshare agreement in place on MXP-JFK.

SueD wrote:
EU-US Openskys treaty.
Such that the German authorities and Lufthansa cannot prevent them operating from any EU airport to any US airport caveat available slots .
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


Openskies not Openskys.

SueD wrote:
Correctly stated - Evidence would suggest if Delta were to return, Eurowings Discovery would initiate a spoiler


There's no Eurowings "Discovery" it's Eurowings Discover.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:30 pm

edealinfo wrote:
a320fan wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Wouldn't Budapest be in the catchment area to DUS? (30 min train ride?)

The Hungarian government, I believe, even advocated for Budapest to JFK when there were no direct flights (LOT now operates that route but on 3X weekly)

30 minutes? Try 12 hours!


Yikes, I mixed up Dresden with Dusseldorf, and yes, Dresden is like a 30 min ride from Prague not Budapest. So, I screwed up twice.

Emirates did consider DXB - BUD -JFK.
Wrong again
Dresden is about 1h40min by car (since they've built the A17 motorway - beforehand it took ages) to Prague and 2h30min by train.

The one issue DUS has is that it is one of the few EK stations where they refuel with a bowser so no idea how many they'd need for their A380 rotation would it carry on to JFK?
 
SueD
Posts: 336
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Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:21 pm

Gemuser wrote:
SueD wrote:
DLHAM

- the flight was absolutely Point to Point with almost no Feed at either end, with their JetBlue Partnership Emirates could offer lot of connections from JFK, they could even Codeshare with B6 between JFK and HAM which would make HAM JetBlues next Destination in Europe, some way
Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place
Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!

Probably because it is wrong!
EK CAN code share with US airlines [from a traffic rights point of view]
The UAE has Open Sky's agreement with USA, so they can code share with any US airline. The EU - US agreement is irrelevant to EK. Unless the EU - UAE agreement has code share restrictions [which I doubt, but don't know] EK is good to go from the EU point of view because it already has 5th freedom rights.
The reason that the EU - USA is irrelevant is that is not the way air service agreements work. In this specific case EK has fifth freedom rights from the EU - UAE agreement and from the UAE - USA agreement. The EU - USA agreement does not apply to EK as it has traffic rights [including 5th] from both EU & USA, which they do. Unless either one of the agreements with the UAE has code share restriction in them there is no problem.
The point with 5th freedom rights is that they apply between the relevant countries separately. The middle country has no say UNLESS such restriction are written in to one of the agreement with the airlines home country, which AFAIK is not the case here.

Gemuser


We are actually talk about 7th and 8th freedoms here

They can codeshare from Dubai THEY CANNOT CODESHARE on the German -US sector with any US carrier and that’s what the poster was referring to.

Same applies the the other carrier Singapore CAN and does codeshare from Singapore to about a dozen points beyond Houston using United however United can not put their code on the Manchester - Houston sector it’s quite simple .
 
SueD
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:37 pm

runway23 wrote:
SueD wrote:
Not possible for Emirates to codeshare with JetBlue or indeed any US carrier from the EU to US .
Firstly Emirates are not covered by the EU-US Openskys regulations ( for obvious reasons !) and where codeshares are allowed it’s almost always subject to having traffic rights in the first place

Don’t know how many times this needs pointing out !


You should stop pointing out things that are 100% wrong. B6 and EK have a codeshare agreement in place on MXP-JFK.

SueD wrote:
EU-US Openskys treaty.
Such that the German authorities and Lufthansa cannot prevent them operating from any EU airport to any US airport caveat available slots .
You can’t simply throw a code on another carriers service WITHOUT holding traffic rights and complying with relevant bilateral treaties!


Openskies not Openskys.

SueD wrote:
Correctly stated - Evidence would suggest if Delta were to return, Eurowings Discovery would initiate a spoiler


There's no Eurowings "Discovery" it's Eurowings Discover.


Demonstrate the Milan code for JetBlue and the docket and relevant restrictions. Indeed point to where I can book a ticket from New York on Jetblue exclusively on their code other than to continue to Dubai.

Blame my iPad for y and not the plural ie - no problem

And the last is you are a pedant !
 
fraT
Posts: 1224
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:47 pm

DLHAM wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.


Number two in Germany after Berlin and number 7 in die EU just after Vienna and just above Warzaw.
The train ride to Frankfurt is around four hours, in crowded trains with all the bags and stuff, few people do this.


Well, if you want to catch a longhaul flight in FRA, the chances are pretty good, that you can have a feeder flight from HAM for the same price or even cheaper and don't have to use those crowded trains... ;-)
 
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DLHAM
Topic Author
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:20 pm

fraT wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Dumb American here, and I’ve been to various places in Germany many times. Isn’t Hamburg the third or fourth largest city in Germany (after Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt)? Because it is a seaport city, and because Germans need, like to, and can afford to (generallly) travel internationally, I’ve always wondered why there’s no significant transatlantic serve there. I know it is a relatively short train ride (even direct to airports) to get to an intercontinental flight, but I would think that there would be local demand. Certainly enough to fill a 757 or A321XLR (or NEO). And if Air Canada, Lufthansa (including their full service “group” carriers) or United could easily make it work.


Number two in Germany after Berlin and number 7 in die EU just after Vienna and just above Warzaw.
The train ride to Frankfurt is around four hours, in crowded trains with all the bags and stuff, few people do this.


Well, if you want to catch a longhaul flight in FRA, the chances are pretty good, that you can have a feeder flight from HAM for the same price or even cheaper and don't have to use those crowded trains... ;-)


Well thats true! But I would prefer a nonstop to New York much more, which also comes with many then possible one-Stop instead of two-Stop connections.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5167
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:41 pm

SueD wrote:

We are actually talk about 7th and 8th freedoms here

They can codeshare from Dubai THEY CANNOT CODESHARE on the German -US sector with any US carrier and that’s what the poster was referring to.

Same applies the the other carrier Singapore CAN and does codeshare from Singapore to about a dozen points beyond Houston using United however United can not put their code on the Manchester - Houston sector it’s quite simple .

Why? Details please.

Gemuser
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
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Re: Potential EK relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:37 am

masi1157 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
What is the 4th letter that looks like a "B" and how is it pronounced? Is it a German character/letter?


It is a german letter that we call "s-z" or "sharp s". It is pronounced more or less like that. You have it after long and accented vovels, otherwise it becomes "ss"


Gruß, masi1157


Ok; GraSZ
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates relaunching 5th freedom Germany - USA? (HAM-JFK)

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:44 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
Dresden is about 1h40min by car (since they've built the A17 motorway - beforehand it took ages) to Prague and 2h30min by train.


Which begs the question. If Prague and Dresen aare only 150 KM or miles away, why does it take so long by high speed rail or the autobahn especially when in Germany, presumably you can hit the gas pedal all the way .

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