LAXintl wrote:

No surprise but big cargo operator Korean Air is looking at future fleet options and reviewing the A350F and B777X widebody freighter options.

KAL CEO Walter Cho says any decision is complicated with the Asiana merger as the company has "too many types" and prefers to maximize commonality. He noted that adding additional current vintage 777 freighters also remains an option for now.

KAL currently operates 24 freighters(744/748/777), and 7 with Asiana (763/744)

https://www.flightglobal.com/iata-agm-2 ... 92.article

jbs2886 wrote:

I could easily see a 777F top-up with the 777XF (although yes Asiana has the A350F).

UPlog wrote:

777F and 777XF seem the logical path for KE to maximize commonality.

I actually also see KE getting 777X for its passenger fleet aswell which further helps commonality.

jbs2886 wrote:

I could easily see a 777F top-up with the 777XF (although yes Asiana has the A350F).

A350F at Asiana

OZ has passenger A350 versions.

sfojvjets wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo

*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9

*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F

*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)

The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.

sfojvjets wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo

*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9

*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F

*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)

The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.

DCA350 wrote:

sfojvjets wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo

*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9

*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F

*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)

The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.

Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

With the 777X nowhere near to being launched the A350F could be a contender.

DCA350 wrote:

Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..

MON wrote:

It would seem surprising to me if KE and OZ's freighter orders were not coordinated?
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... r-capacity

ikolkyo wrote:

DCA350 wrote:

sfojvjets wrote:

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo

*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9

*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F

*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)

The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.

Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..

LATAM did just that

Cardude2 wrote:

A350's purchased at a discount (Airbus is giving these away and soon)

jbs2886 wrote:

Well, the 777X has been "launched." No, it is not in service, but it certainly is launched. KE and OZ both have lots of experience with the 777.

SEPilot wrote:

As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.

zeke wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Well, the 777X has been "launched." No, it is not in service, but it certainly is launched. KE and OZ both have lots of experience with the 777.

Same could be said for SQ, they had significant 777 experience.

The elephant in the room and the reason why Korean buys so much Boeing is they make parts of the aircraft. It is indirectly supporting their own industries when it buys them. So the purchase does not need to be the same metrics as other airlines may use.

Korea also is an important industrial base for Airbus, which has strong partnerships with KAI and Korean Air Aerospace Division (KAL-ASD) - both Tier 1 suppliers for Airbus civil aircraft programmes - as well as numerous small and medium enterprises (SME) in the country.

KAL-ASD, an Airbus supplier since 1989, supplies the Airbus-designed fuel-saving ‘Sharklet’ wingtip devices for the A320neo and A330neo programmes. It also produces fuselage skin panels and floor assemblies of the A330, as well as the A350 XWB’s composite cargo doors.

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

Anyone know if the cargo only runway at ICN is still being planned? ICN is set to try and become a huge cargo hub and the ongoing problems at HKG only serve to accelerate this even more.

amdiesen wrote:

One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.

rfarlz wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.

If the CEO is saying they have too many types, how is the A350F a higher hurdle than the 777XF? One is based on a plane they (the to-be KE/OZ group) already operate, the other is based on a plane they don't even have on order.

Apart from pilot ratings I don't expect much commonality between the 777F and 777XF. Most of the 777X has been replaced or redesigned, so parts and maintenance commonality won't be realised to much extent, and the higher payload and pavement loading will affect planning as well. If the A350F can take a full load of pallets sized for the 777F (as I've seen suggested it will) I think it's the 777XF that has the high hurdle to jump.

ZK-NBT wrote:

amdiesen wrote:

One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.

How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.

Cardude2 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

amdiesen wrote:

One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.

How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.

They have 13 A350-900s in their fleet with 8 more on order. They also have 9 A350-1000s on order. ALL WILL BE DELIVERED BY 2025, so they will already be in the fleet when the merger is done. They also have 10 options (enough to almost retire the large 744F fleet at Asiana)

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/asiana- ... N920150211

oh and for your crazy 777-9 idea let me give you a quote "Korean Air Lines Co., South Korea's largest carrier, will retire its four-engine passenger aircraft within the next 10 years to shift its business model to smaller jets for long-haul flights, company officials said Friday."

Now does that sound like a 777-9 order? NO

source: https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210820003600320

Cardude2 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

amdiesen wrote:

One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.

How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.

They have 13 A350-900s in their fleet with 8 more on order. They also have 9 A350-1000s on order. ALL WILL BE DELIVERED BY 2025, so they will already be in the fleet when the merger is done. They also have 10 options (enough to almost retire the large 744F fleet at Asiana)

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/asiana- ... N920150211

oh and for your crazy 777-9 idea let me give you a quote "Korean Air Lines Co., South Korea's largest carrier, will retire its four-engine passenger aircraft within the next 10 years to shift its business model to smaller jets for long-haul flights, company officials said Friday."

Now does that sound like a 777-9 order? NO

source: https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210820003600320

Opus99 wrote:

rfarlz wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.

If the CEO is saying they have too many types, how is the A350F a higher hurdle than the 777XF? One is based on a plane they (the to-be KE/OZ group) already operate, the other is based on a plane they don't even have on order.

Apart from pilot ratings I don't expect much commonality between the 777F and 777XF. Most of the 777X has been replaced or redesigned, so parts and maintenance commonality won't be realised to much extent, and the higher payload and pavement loading will affect planning as well. If the A350F can take a full load of pallets sized for the 777F (as I've seen suggested it will) I think it's the 777XF that has the high hurdle to jump.

Because he said they like commonality especially within the cargo business. So which has more commonality 777F and A350F OR 777F and 777XF?

The 777F is the key here, it’s their most popular freighter which they are not replacing btw

“Either one, the Boeing or Airbus option, would be a new fleet type for us, new engine, so it’s a challenge. We prefer to keep the same fleet, especially on the freighter side for commonality,” he said, noting that adding more 777 freighters also remains an option.

“We will have too many types. So we are holding it back a little bit,” he says, without being drawn on whether a potential order would have to wait until after the merger is finalised.