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LAXintl
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Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm

No surprise but big cargo operator Korean Air is looking at future fleet options and reviewing the A350F and B777X widebody freighter options.

KAL CEO Walter Cho says any decision is complicated with the Asiana merger as the company has "too many types" and prefers to maximize commonality. He noted that adding additional current vintage 777 freighters also remains an option for now.

KAL currently operates 24 freighters(744/748/777), and 7 with Asiana (763/744)

https://www.flightglobal.com/iata-agm-2 ... 92.article
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:19 pm

LAXintl wrote:
No surprise but big cargo operator Korean Air is looking at future fleet options and reviewing the A350F and B777X widebody freighter options.

KAL CEO Walter Cho says any decision is complicated with the Asiana merger as the company has "too many types" and prefers to maximize commonality. He noted that adding additional current vintage 777 freighters also remains an option for now.

KAL currently operates 24 freighters(744/748/777), and 7 with Asiana (763/744)

https://www.flightglobal.com/iata-agm-2 ... 92.article


I could easily see a 777F top-up with the 777XF (although yes Asiana has the A350F).
 
Opus99
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:38 pm

He says they like commonality especially on the Freighter side. I can see 777Fs and XFs just to keep the commonality tight on the freighter side
 
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UPlog
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:21 pm

777F and 777XF seem the logical path for KE to maximize commonality.

I actually also see KE getting 777X for its passenger fleet aswell which further helps commonality.

jbs2886 wrote:
I could easily see a 777F top-up with the 777XF (although yes Asiana has the A350F).


A350F at Asiana :confused: :confused:

OZ has passenger A350 versions.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4222
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:22 pm

UPlog wrote:
777F and 777XF seem the logical path for KE to maximize commonality.

I actually also see KE getting 777X for its passenger fleet aswell which further helps commonality.

jbs2886 wrote:
I could easily see a 777F top-up with the 777XF (although yes Asiana has the A350F).


A350F at Asiana :confused: :confused:

OZ has passenger A350 versions.


Sorry, typed too fast. A350 at Asiana so it wouldn't be too complicated to add the A350F.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:10 pm

As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:55 pm

With the 777X nowhere near to being launched the A350F could be a contender. It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

For now they have:
A330-200/-300
A350-900 (OZ only)
A380-800
747-8
777-200/-300/-300ER
787-9/-10 (KE only)

With the 787 deliveries and A380 retired by 2026 (if current plan stands) KE will have to make a fleet decision soon, I’m they wouldn’t be able to get a 777x for at least another 5 years but considering how young most of the -300ER fleet is (less than 10 years) that might not be a problem for them. Definitely a space to keep an eye on.

Anyone know if the cargo only runway at ICN is still being planned? ICN is set to try and become a huge cargo hub and the ongoing problems at HKG only serve to accelerate this even more.
 
MON
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:54 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:36 pm

It would seem surprising to me if KE and OZ's freighter orders were not coordinated?
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... r-capacity
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:40 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo


*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9


*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F


*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)


The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.
 
Cardude2
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 1:55 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:35 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo


*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9


*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F


*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)


The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.


I tend to disagree on the A350. They could very much have a future in the fleet and instead just be used in streamlining to immediately retire the 777-200ER/300ER and maybe even the A330's (after the A380's and 748). making it look something like this

WB fleet (some even for domestic):
787-9
787-10
A350-900
A350-1000

freighter:
748F
777F
A350F

A350's purchased at a discount (Airbus is giving these away and soon)
 
DCA350
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:02 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo


*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9


*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F


*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)


The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.


Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3730
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Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:07 pm

DCA350 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
It’s a very important tender because losing this order could mean the end of Airbus widebodies at the combined group because there would be very little incentive to keep the A350 passenger fleet.

Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo


*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9


*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F


*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)


The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.


Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..


LATAM did just that
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4222
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:10 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
With the 777X nowhere near to being launched the A350F could be a contender.


Well, the 777X has been "launched." No, it is not in service, but it certainly is launched. KE and OZ both have lots of experience with the 777.

DCA350 wrote:
Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..


Lease terms, fleet simplification, etc. Look at LATAM, they retired A350s to keep old 777Ws (yes it was bankruptcy, but there are valid reasons).

MON wrote:
It would seem surprising to me if KE and OZ's freighter orders were not coordinated?
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... r-capacity


Well, KE does not own OZ right now, so it would not be appropriate for them to be coordinated. It is in OZ's best interest to continue business as usual (while also preparing for an acquisition, but just in case the acquisition does not go through).
 
DCA350
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:44 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Completely agree here. However, I think that's just why Boeing will chase this deal even harder. It's Boeing's to lose, really. And Boeing needs to show that airlines can have confidence in the 777X. I think there's no way they'll let an Airbus deal happen... as Korean executives have said themselves, they already have way too many fleet types, and KAL tends to heavily favor Boeing.

This is what I believe should be in the combined OZ/KE future fleet:

NB fleet:
A220
737 MAX
A321neo


*737NG (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A321ceo (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

WB fleet:
787-9/10
777-300ER
777-9


*747-8i (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A380 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*A330 (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)
*777-200ER (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

Cargo Fleet:
747-8F
777F
777-8F


*747F (to be retired sometime post-merger but not immediately)

The following types should be eliminated immediately:
A320 (OZ)
A350 (OZ)
B744 (OZ)
B763 (OZ)
767F (OZ)


The only major fleet "cleanup" that they need to do is with OZ's A350s. I'm sure there will be a lot of carriers interested though so getting rid of them shouldn't be too hard.

They probably also need to do some consolidation/right sizing within Korean's 737 fleet (they have a few -800s, a few -900s, a few -900ERs, and 30 MAX 8s on order)... I believe that Airbus (A220/A321neo) should probably cover the upper and lower bounds of the NB fleet with Boeing covering the middle (MAX 8).

Appreciate any thoughts on this and let me know if I am missing anything.


Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..


LATAM did just that


I could be mistaken but LATAM's A350s were leased.. Those are the easiest to dump in Bankruptcy
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:50 pm

Cardude2 wrote:

A350's purchased at a discount (Airbus is giving these away and soon)


They are? Where do I sign up for a free A350F? On a more serious note; I am genuinely interested from what article or report you are basing this on as it would give a clue as to what discounts both manufacturers are having to endure in order to make a sale. Also, worth bearing in mind that I believe one of the key reasons the A350F exists is in order to break up the monopoly Boeing has had on the freighter market for some time now and get their foot in the proverbial door.

I suspect timing is going to be more of a factor here than anything else, if they are in a real hurry then ordering more 77Fs would be the logical choice, But if they are willing to wait a little longer than the A350F would definitely be in contender IMHO - We still have no idea when the pax 77X will be delivered let alone when the XF will be. Add onto that Oz having an existing order for the type and an existing A350 pilot pool and maintenance infrastructure, then I don't see it as quite the high hurdle.

I do agree that Boeing is perhaps their favoured option; I suspect a top-up order for the 77F, and they will wait and see what happens in regard to the A350F and 77XF. I am curious as to why some think Oz will immediately drop the A350's though - Their largest WB fleet are the A330's and although I am not sure how OZ run them they can obvioulsy share a pilot pool with the A350's, makes zero sense to me.
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:33 am

DCA350 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

Why would they retire new A350s and keep old 777Ws.. That wouldn't be very smart even if there was some commonality.. They are a candidate for the 779 however they might chose flexibility and run a A350/787 operation..


LATAM did just that


I could be mistaken but LATAM's A350s were leased.. Those are the easiest to dump in Bankruptcy

As far as I can tell so are the vast majority of Asiana's. At least 11 out of Asiana's 13 existing A350s seem to be leased from various lessors. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Asiana-Airlines

Also, the "new" A350s have an average age of 3.6 years.
The "old" 77Ws have an average age of 8 years.

So while KE's 77W may be double the age of OZ's A350s, they are in no way "old" or ready for retirement (at least not from an age viewpoint). Plus, as far as I can tell, all but two of KE's ~25ish 77Ws are owned outright. That's in comparison to OZ's A350 fleet, where only two seem to be owned.
Last edited by sfojvjets on Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Tokyo777
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:29 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 am

Will the A350F be able to interline cargo with the 777?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 17358
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:39 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Well, the 777X has been "launched." No, it is not in service, but it certainly is launched. KE and OZ both have lots of experience with the 777.


Same could be said for SQ, they had significant 777 experience.

The elephant in the room and the reason why Korean buys so much Boeing is they make parts of the aircraft. It is indirectly supporting their own industries when it buys them. So the purchase does not need to be the same metrics as other airlines may use.
 
rfarlz
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:02 am

SEPilot wrote:
As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.


If the CEO is saying they have too many types, how is the A350F a higher hurdle than the 777XF? One is based on a plane they (the to-be KE/OZ group) already operate, the other is based on a plane they don't even have on order.

Apart from pilot ratings I don't expect much commonality between the 777F and 777XF. Most of the 777X has been replaced or redesigned, so parts and maintenance commonality won't be realised to much extent, and the higher payload and pavement loading will affect planning as well. If the A350F can take a full load of pallets sized for the 777F (as I've seen suggested it will) I think it's the 777XF that has the high hurdle to jump.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 4065
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:09 am

zeke wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Well, the 777X has been "launched." No, it is not in service, but it certainly is launched. KE and OZ both have lots of experience with the 777.


Same could be said for SQ, they had significant 777 experience.

The elephant in the room and the reason why Korean buys so much Boeing is they make parts of the aircraft. It is indirectly supporting their own industries when it buys them. So the purchase does not need to be the same metrics as other airlines may use.

Korean Air Aerospace is also a major Airbus supplier as well, as described by Airbus:

https://www.airbus.com/en/our-worldwide ... outh-korea

Korea also is an important industrial base for Airbus, which has strong partnerships with KAI and Korean Air Aerospace Division (KAL-ASD) - both Tier 1 suppliers for Airbus civil aircraft programmes - as well as numerous small and medium enterprises (SME) in the country.

KAL-ASD, an Airbus supplier since 1989, supplies the Airbus-designed fuel-saving ‘Sharklet’ wingtip devices for the A320neo and A330neo programmes. It also produces fuselage skin panels and floor assemblies of the A330, as well as the A350 XWB’s composite cargo doors.
 
kengo
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:25 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Anyone know if the cargo only runway at ICN is still being planned? ICN is set to try and become a huge cargo hub and the ongoing problems at HKG only serve to accelerate this even more.


I read ICN is planning to start construction on the 5th runway, dedicated to freight operations, as part of the phase 5 development from 2025. However, this plan could be pushed back as ICN is having legal issues with golf course operator where the 5th runway is planned.

*Tried to search the article but I could not find it anymore.
 
amdiesen
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:27 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:18 am

One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 8732
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:26 am

amdiesen wrote:
One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.


How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:06 am

rfarlz wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.


If the CEO is saying they have too many types, how is the A350F a higher hurdle than the 777XF? One is based on a plane they (the to-be KE/OZ group) already operate, the other is based on a plane they don't even have on order.

Apart from pilot ratings I don't expect much commonality between the 777F and 777XF. Most of the 777X has been replaced or redesigned, so parts and maintenance commonality won't be realised to much extent, and the higher payload and pavement loading will affect planning as well. If the A350F can take a full load of pallets sized for the 777F (as I've seen suggested it will) I think it's the 777XF that has the high hurdle to jump.

Because he said they like commonality especially within the cargo business. So which has more commonality 777F and A350F OR 777F and 777XF?

The 777F is the key here, it’s their most popular freighter which they are not replacing btw
 
Cardude2
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 1:55 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:21 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.


How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.


They have 13 A350-900s in their fleet with 8 more on order. They also have 9 A350-1000s on order. ALL WILL BE DELIVERED BY 2025, so they will already be in the fleet when the merger is done. They also have 10 options (enough to almost retire the large 744F fleet at Asiana)

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/asiana- ... N920150211

oh and for your crazy 777-9 idea let me give you a quote "Korean Air Lines Co., South Korea's largest carrier, will retire its four-engine passenger aircraft within the next 10 years to shift its business model to smaller jets for long-haul flights, company officials said Friday."

Now does that sound like a 777-9 order? NO

source: https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210820003600320
 
Opus99
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:53 am

Cardude2 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.


How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.


They have 13 A350-900s in their fleet with 8 more on order. They also have 9 A350-1000s on order. ALL WILL BE DELIVERED BY 2025, so they will already be in the fleet when the merger is done. They also have 10 options (enough to almost retire the large 744F fleet at Asiana)

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/asiana- ... N920150211

oh and for your crazy 777-9 idea let me give you a quote "Korean Air Lines Co., South Korea's largest carrier, will retire its four-engine passenger aircraft within the next 10 years to shift its business model to smaller jets for long-haul flights, company officials said Friday."

Now does that sound like a 777-9 order? NO

source: https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210820003600320

Tbf the 777-9 is smaller.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:54 am

Also, everybody and their dog has compensation credits from Boeing, part of the reason they keep getting orders from places you least expect. Like LHs 777XF order when this forum was so sure they’ll go for the A350F.

These things you just never know
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 532
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:06 am

Lets avoid transforming this debate into a bitter A vs B battle.

I truly think this debate will be about the overall strategy of KE post merger. The end of Quad engines means they will have to make a decision on large parts of their network, either downsize or increase frequency. ICN-LAX was 4 daily A380, the route has a lot of capacity to absorb but CDG/LHR/FRA were 1x daily and had overcapacity during the winter, especially CDG with the A380 year round. KE could adopt a CX like strategy with a focus on frequency on trunk routes, this could help increase frequency on key European routes and to the likes of SYD and AKL.

In such a situation a 787-9/-10 and A350-900/-1000 fleet could meet their needs, more frequencies also means more belly capacity. With such a configuration an a350F fleet could make sense.

If they opt to maintain the current strategy with smaller VLAs (777X) then the 777XF is the real contender here.

As I said earlier, expect both A and B to fight tooth and nail for this as it could signal the end or a breakthrough of Airbus widebodies at the combined entity.
Last edited by FromCDGtoSYD on Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 8732
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:08 am

Cardude2 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
One might consider that the ERSF and the a350f have the higher probabilities. Korean will be motivated/compelled to right size the combination's VLA passenger fleet through Sharpe implemented IAI conversions. Both Asiana and Airbus will see symbiotic value in converting the a350p orders to freighter; Asiana/Korean having a preference to take the 787p orders and Airbus angling to replace all of the combinations 744f fleet with a350fs. Given the debt and business struggles through the foreseeable horizon it is difficult to see the purchase of the b77X.


How many A350s does OZ have on order still? It was mentioned up thread that 11 of 13 A359s at OZ are leased while 2 of 25 77Ws at KE are owned. All of this will come into play, I am just surprised they are looking now separately, surely there must be some working together. Either way they have to many types and will retire some while ordering new aircraft of some sort both pax and freight. The 779 will be the largest new pax aircraft and both have VLA A380s and 748 with KE.


They have 13 A350-900s in their fleet with 8 more on order. They also have 9 A350-1000s on order. ALL WILL BE DELIVERED BY 2025, so they will already be in the fleet when the merger is done. They also have 10 options (enough to almost retire the large 744F fleet at Asiana)

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/asiana- ... N920150211

oh and for your crazy 777-9 idea let me give you a quote "Korean Air Lines Co., South Korea's largest carrier, will retire its four-engine passenger aircraft within the next 10 years to shift its business model to smaller jets for long-haul flights, company officials said Friday."

Now does that sound like a 777-9 order? NO

source: https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210820003600320


Firstly, no need to use caps thank you. That first article is from 2015, I’m not saying anything has changed. Has this changed?

Crazy 777-9 idea? Curious as to what is crazy when the combined airline has 16 A380s, 10 747-8s and 25 odd 77Ws why you think a 779 order would be crazy? It is smaller than the 748/A380 last I looked. Though I never said they would order it just it will be the largest on the market, I would be quite surprised however should they not order it.
 
rfarlz
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:34 am

Opus99 wrote:
rfarlz wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
As I see it if the CEO says that they have too many types then the A350F has a very high hurdle to make it into the fleet. The 777F and 777XF have a lot of commonality, especially for pilots, and all of the rest of the freighter fleet is Boeing. The A350F will have to offer very superior performance to get the nod. Parity or a slight advantage won’t cut it.


If the CEO is saying they have too many types, how is the A350F a higher hurdle than the 777XF? One is based on a plane they (the to-be KE/OZ group) already operate, the other is based on a plane they don't even have on order.

Apart from pilot ratings I don't expect much commonality between the 777F and 777XF. Most of the 777X has been replaced or redesigned, so parts and maintenance commonality won't be realised to much extent, and the higher payload and pavement loading will affect planning as well. If the A350F can take a full load of pallets sized for the 777F (as I've seen suggested it will) I think it's the 777XF that has the high hurdle to jump.

Because he said they like commonality especially within the cargo business. So which has more commonality 777F and A350F OR 777F and 777XF?

The 777F is the key here, it’s their most popular freighter which they are not replacing btw


I think Cho's quote is being used a little out of context here - I read it as him lamenting that neither option has the commonality from within the freight business that they prefer:
“Either one, the Boeing or Airbus option, would be a new fleet type for us, new engine, so it’s a challenge. We prefer to keep the same fleet, especially on the freighter side for commonality,” he said, noting that adding more 777 freighters also remains an option.


I think this quote is most telling:
“We will have too many types. So we are holding it back a little bit,” he says, without being drawn on whether a potential order would have to wait until after the merger is finalised.

I think that their plans for the pax widebodies will drive this decision, if they don't see a future for the B779 it'll be a hard sell to add another fleet type with the 777XF. If they plan on keeping the A350 (which I believe is likely) then that gives it quite an advantage with an airline that is trying to reduce the number of fleet types. I could see them going for more 777F if they don't want to commit to a widebody strategy in the near term though.
 
behramjee
Posts: 5227
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:15 pm

I would like to point out something interesting and important which can play a vital role in the final decision for the freighter deal.

OZ still has 9 A351s + 8 A359s on order credits with Airbus. If push comes to shove, just like how SQ did with their A35F deal, the Koreans could negotiate with Airbus to exchange those planes for a large A35F deal. A big A35F order of 15-20 units by the Koreans would be a massive PR boost for this program type.

Food for thought :)
 
smartplane
Posts: 1926
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Korean Air considers A350F and B777X freighter

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:26 pm

Existing 777X customers, with launch discounts, retrospective volume credits and compensation credits, would be mad to cancel. Credits are still accruing. Boeing will lose money on every currently ordered X.

The question, is how much flexibility will the Board give to write new orders at new prices.

Existence of the A380 set an upper price limit on the X when launched, so when cancelled, this was seen as releasing the X from those constraints, allowing margins to be pushed out.

Along came Covid, X delays and A350 performance growth, with the X now being attacked from below.

Truly new X orders will demonstrate the Board's willingness to underwrite the model's ongoing lack of profits, and constrain development of the 787 family at the upper end.

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