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dcajet
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LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:05 am

Thread for news and discussion about Latin America´s largest airline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LATAM announced today the reinstatement of 2 international routes to Argentina, both effective 2NOV22

* Rio de Janeiro GIG - Buenos Aires EZE

LA8092 GIG 17:00 EZE 20:20 320 357
LA8093 EZE 09:50 GIG 12:45 320 357

LATAM will be the fifth airline flying between Buenos Aires and Rio and a minor player at it: Aerolineas, Flybondi and GOL each fly twice daily on the route, and Emirates will be 4x w beginning in November, going to daily in December.

* Lima LIM - Mendoza MDZ

LA2435 LIM 00:45 MDZ 06:20 320 457
LA2434 MDZ 08:15 LIM 10:05 320 457

Mendoza will have nonstop flights to each of LATAM's hubs in South America: Lima, Santiago and Sao Paulo
 
smi0006
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:21 am

What is the current fleet count for LA? Hard to find accurate numbers ?
 
x1234
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:26 am

I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.
 
dcajet
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Posts: 5610
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:33 am

x1234 wrote:
I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.


GRU-JNB is currently suspended. Off the top of my head I don´t remember when it is scheduled to return.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:37 am

smi0006 wrote:
What is the current fleet count for LA? Hard to find accurate numbers ?


The info you seek is a few seconds away on any good online fleet db sites such as atdb.aero, planespotters.net or airfleets.net.
 
jbs2886
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:45 pm

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... bia-growth

Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:25 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth

Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.


They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/
 
jbs2886
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:29 pm

dcajet wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth

Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.


They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/


Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here :) Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.
 
3D101CA
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:09 am

I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.
 
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NearMiss
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:40 am

jbs2886 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth

Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.


They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/


Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here :) Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.


3 ex Norwegian UK 787-9s are already getting checked at LATAM's SCL workshop. AFAIK, they are only looking for -9s.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:59 am

NearMiss wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/


Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here :) Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.


3 ex Norwegian UK 787-9s are already getting checked at LATAM's SCL workshop. AFAIK, they are only looking for -9s.


They can always get their paws on Mexico's unwanted presidential 787-8... Mexico literally doesn´t know what to do with it! :lol: :lol:
 
DCA350
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:45 am

Still a few years out but what will replace the 777Ws? A35Ks would be the perfect size and they have A350 experience albeit they are gone now.. I think the 777X is too big
 
rjbesikof
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:21 pm

LATAM to increase LAX-LIM to 10x weekly effective 12/2/2022
Right now the redeye flights (in both directions) are currently operating. December will see the return of the afternoon flights.
 
nickpo
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:42 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth

Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.


The article also mentions "targets Colombia growth". Someone knows what growth are they talking about? New routes? More aircraft?
 
Elgorou
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:51 pm

x1234 wrote:
I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.


Meanwhile most of Asia/Pacifc countries has heavy Covid restrictions (especially China and Japan) barely we can see a increase of demand to LAX/AKL/SYD, at the time the only increase announced is Qantas returne to SCL in october 4x weekly.

As example AA suspended DFW-SCL/LIM ( both with fligts to US west coast) and decrease frequency in DFW-GRU/EZE ( without fligts to the west coast)
 
LHLX
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:38 pm

3D101CA wrote:
I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.


I was thinking the same thing.

When the route first started in late 2018 as SCL-GRU-TLV operated by LATAM Chile it flew the long detour north to Spain and then over the Med to TLV. Depending on direction that took between 13>30 and 15 hours.
Just before the route was suspended due to COVID LATAM was allowed to overfly Sudan en route to TLV, thereby omitting the long detour and flying an almost direct route that saved between 15, and 2 hours per flight.

Also, some 787s from LATAM Chile got transferred to LATAM Brazil so flights could be operated without the tag-on need and quicker now.

I think apart from KE and LA every airline that served TLV before COVID is back, some even with more frequencies than before (DL, UA, AA), bigger equipment (AF) and new destinations served from TLV (EK to DXB, EY to AUH, AT to CMN, DL to BOS, AA to MIA, etc)

Apparently PR and SQ are also interested in launching TLV...so a nonstop link to South America is the only real missing link right now...
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:33 pm

Elgorou wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.


Meanwhile most of Asia/Pacifc countries has heavy Covid restrictions (especially China and Japan) barely we can see a increase of demand to LAX/AKL/SYD, at the time the only increase announced is Qantas returne to SCL in october 4x weekly.

As example AA suspended DFW-SCL/LIM ( both with fligts to US west coast) and decrease frequency in DFW-GRU/EZE ( without fligts to the west coast)


The temporary (April and May) decrease of DFW-EZE/GRU was related to AA internal reasons (lack of staffing). As of 1JUN both flights are back to daily service and packed to the gills.
Last edited by dcajet on Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:45 pm

LHLX wrote:
3D101CA wrote:
I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.


I was thinking the same thing.

When the route first started in late 2018 as SCL-GRU-TLV operated by LATAM Chile it flew the long detour north to Spain and then over the Med to TLV. Depending on direction that took between 13>30 and 15 hours.
Just before the route was suspended due to COVID LATAM was allowed to overfly Sudan en route to TLV, thereby omitting the long detour and flying an almost direct route that saved between 15, and 2 hours per flight.

Also, some 787s from LATAM Chile got transferred to LATAM Brazil so flights could be operated without the tag-on need and quicker now.

I think apart from KE and LA every airline that served TLV before COVID is back, some even with more frequencies than before (DL, UA, AA), bigger equipment (AF) and new destinations served from TLV (EK to DXB, EY to AUH, AT to CMN, DL to BOS, AA to MIA, etc)

Apparently PR and SQ are also interested in launching TLV...so a nonstop link to South America is the only real missing link right now...


The arrival of the 787s to LATAM Brazil is to replace the now gone A350s and the 767s, which are leaving the Brazilian's franchise fleet in 2023. I don't think the route to TLV had anything to do with it. So far, there is only one 787 (PS-LAA) allocated to JJ and registered in Brazil. The rest of the 787 flights ex GRU are being covered with CC- registered ones, under the fleet interchange scheme between the Chilean and Brazilian arms of LATAM; in all cases, all JJ 787 flights are flown with Brazilian pilots and F/As.
 
3D101CA
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:25 pm

LHLX wrote:
3D101CA wrote:
I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.


I was thinking the same thing.

When the route first started in late 2018 as SCL-GRU-TLV operated by LATAM Chile it flew the long detour north to Spain and then over the Med to TLV. Depending on direction that took between 13>30 and 15 hours.
Just before the route was suspended due to COVID LATAM was allowed to overfly Sudan en route to TLV, thereby omitting the long detour and flying an almost direct route that saved between 15, and 2 hours per flight.

Also, some 787s from LATAM Chile got transferred to LATAM Brazil so flights could be operated without the tag-on need and quicker now.

I think apart from KE and LA every airline that served TLV before COVID is back, some even with more frequencies than before (DL, UA, AA), bigger equipment (AF) and new destinations served from TLV (EK to DXB, EY to AUH, AT to CMN, DL to BOS, AA to MIA, etc)

Apparently PR and SQ are also interested in launching TLV...so a nonstop link to South America is the only real missing link right now...


Would Singapore Airlines be banned from using Malaysia/Indonesia airspace on the way to TLV?

As soon as you take off from SIN, you fly over Malaysia and Indonesia which don't grant airspace rights to Israeli flight. Even before, an El Al flight with the prime minister that was flying from SIN to SYD had to avoid Indonesia airspace since it was banned from doing so.

So unless something has changed, I don't know if Malaysia and Indonesia would allow a TLV flight over there airspace. This would block SQ from serving TLV perhaps.

Not related to LATAM, but something I'm just wondering.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:35 pm

dcajet wrote:
NearMiss wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here :) Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.


3 ex Norwegian UK 787-9s are already getting checked at LATAM's SCL workshop. AFAIK, they are only looking for -9s.


They can always get their paws on Mexico's unwanted presidential 787-8... Mexico literally doesn´t know what to do with it! :lol: :lol:


That was money well spent for sure :lol:

BTW, does anyone have load factors for the TLV route before COVID? Were they any good?
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:00 pm

Just in time for the 2022 winter ski season and after a break of 28 months imposed by COVID, LATAM Brazil resumed today the Sao Paulo GRU - Bariloche BRC route.

Image
 
JJ777
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:33 am

DCA350 wrote:
Still a few years out but what will replace the 777Ws? A35Ks would be the perfect size and they have A350 experience albeit they are gone now.. I think the 777X is too big


I could see LA ordering a few 78Xs closer to the end of the decade to replace the 77Ws. LA has made it clear they will stick with Boeing aircraft for long haul routes and the 787-10 seems to offer optimal capacity for the heaviest São Paulo-Europe and São Paulo-USA routes. That said, of LA's 10 77Ws, 6 of them are not even 10 years old yet, so there's no real hurry for this..
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:49 pm

LATAM Chile yesterday resumed flying to the Falkland Islands, after a 27-month hiatus. Flights operate on Saturdays between Punta Arenas PUQ and Mount Pleasant MPN, with A320 equipment. Every 4th Saturday, the flight includes a stop at Rio Gallegos RGL (Argentina) on both ways to and from the islands.

No word yet if the short lived Sao Paulo - Cordoba - Mt Pleasant flight will eventually return. That flight was briefly operated in 2019-2020 by LATAM Brazil with B767 equipment.
 
F9Animal
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:53 pm

Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:05 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?


LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.
 
3D101CA
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:48 pm

At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?

TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?

Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.
 
PB26
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:45 pm

dcajet wrote:
Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.


Many employees, pilots and customers still missing TAM's A332, for the flexibility to offer an hardware product on premium routes like CDG, FRA and JFK, plus cargo belly and a good range for longest routes, as MXP.
 
dcajet
Topic Author
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:49 pm

3D101CA wrote:
At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?

TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?

Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.


Given how LATAM has pretty much abandoned GIG for all intents and purposes, (save for a regional flight, here or there) the quick answer is that GIG was not performing for them. But the answer is more complex and nuanced.

GIG was for years the entry airport to Brazil, even though it was no longer the capital nor the most important city in the country. Sao Paulo is where the money and demand are; it is the economic engine that moves Brazil. It just so happened that until the late 80s, Sao Paulo did not have an airport close to the city that could handle long haul flights, so GIG took on that role. When GRU opened, GIG entered into a slow decline that continues to this date. It has not helped GIG the facts that the city of Rio de Janeiro has seen better economic times and for the purposes of mass tourism, it is not longer considered by most travelers as a safe destination, a reputation that also dogs Brazil as a whole. True, there are a few European airlines that continue to fly to Rio, and the Brazilian oil industry, HQ'd in Rio, keeps the IAH flight busy, but for the rest of the US destinations, it is hard for most of them (MIA, JFK and ATL) to support service consistently year-round. Also, a lot of European and South American (Argentinian mostly) tourism now can fly directly to Brazil's NE resorts, further eroding GIG's as a gateway to Brazil.

So the net result is that, at least when it comes to international arrivals and departures, GIG is mostly a ghost town for most of the day. Take a look at their departures for a given day last month. Only 10 international departures over a 12-hour period, and 48% of them are to Buenos Aires.

Image
Source: Sir Chandler

On the domestic front, a lot of passengers overwhelmingly prefer Rio's downtown airport, Santos Dumont, which now offers flights to most of Brazil, after decades of being used mostly for the Shuttle Service to Sao Paulo with the venerable VARIG's Electras. Not good for GIG, although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:17 am

In addition to Mt Pleasant and Bariloche, 2 other LATAM South American routes saw their return this weekend, both operated by LATAM Peru:

* Lima - Cali, 3x w with A319/320
* Lima - Porto Alegre, 3x w with A319/320
 
Jomar777
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:50 am

dcajet wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?


LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.


Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease. With the Pandemic and the subsequent reduction in services, LATAM decided to ditch those planes (not needed neither, in the view, suitable) as part of their COVID19/Chapter 11 recovery plans since they had plenty of low aged B767s which could pick up the slack and also extended the lease of JJ~s B77Ws which, as mentioned, are mainly lower than 10 years old. Now that they also found that cargo planes are in high demand, they decided to sell;convert their B767s to cargo and are gradually moving the Brazilian side to the B789 which they value and that also bring fleet commonality with the Chilean (main) arm of the airline.Expect a gradual transfer of some B789s from Chile to Brazil and the addition of more of those mainly nearly new second hands in the market like the Norwegian ones.

It was also mentioned here what they would use for their actual B77W routes once those go. This was one of the issues with the A350 for LATAM - they could not replace them even on the A350-1000 version. I believe that they may consider the B787-10 once the Brazilian arm is ready and up and running on B787 Operations which are still being tested/implemented. nut, again, their B77Ws are quite reasonably new, have just been refurbished and also had their leases renewed not long ago. They might not be going anywhere anytime soon.
 
jfk777
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:00 pm

LATAM's 77W fleet now seat 410 passengers with 38 J and the rest economy with no Premium economy. They are great freight hauler with passengers on LATAM's most demanding routes to Miami, JFK, and LHR.
 
DCA350
Posts: 341
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:15 pm

dcajet wrote:
3D101CA wrote:
At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?

TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?

Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.


Given how LATAM has pretty much abandoned GIG for all intents and purposes, (save for a regional flight, here or there) the quick answer is that GIG was not performing for them. But the answer is more complex and nuanced.

GIG was for years the entry airport to Brazil, even though it was no longer the capital nor the most important city in the country. Sao Paulo is where the money and demand are; it is the economic engine that moves Brazil. It just so happened that until the late 80s, Sao Paulo did not have an airport close to the city that could handle long haul flights, so GIG took on that role. When GRU opened, GIG entered into a slow decline that continues to this date. It has not helped GIG the facts that the city of Rio de Janeiro has seen better economic times and for the purposes of mass tourism, it is not longer considered by most travelers as a safe destination, a reputation that also dogs Brazil as a whole. True, there are a few European airlines that continue to fly to Rio, and the Brazilian oil industry, HQ'd in Rio, keeps the IAH flight busy, but for the rest of the US destinations, it is hard for most of them (MIA, JFK and ATL) to support service consistently year-round. Also, a lot of European and South American (Argentinian mostly) tourism now can fly directly to Brazil's NE resorts, further eroding GIG's as a gateway to Brazil.

So the net result is that, at least when it comes to international arrivals and departures, GIG is mostly a ghost town for most of the day. Take a look at their departures for a given day last month. Only 10 international departures over a 12-hour period, and 48% of them are to Buenos Aires.

Image
Source: Sir Chandler

On the domestic front, a lot of passengers overwhelmingly prefer Rio's downtown airport, Santos Dumont, which now offers flights to most of Brazil, after decades of being used mostly for the Shuttle Service to Sao Paulo with the venerable VARIG's Electras. Not good for GIG, although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.


Great explanation.. Hard to believe the third largest metro in South America, over 12 million, has so little international demand but the numbers don't lie..
 
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Polot
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:28 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?


LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.


Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.

To add a bit more to that, the A350s were also first ordered ~15 years ago around when Varig collapsed, when TAM was desperately trying to fill the void and standardize away from the hodgepodge of aircraft that they quickly brought on to expand (used MD-11s and A340-500s, new 77Ws). Unfortunately TAM completely over ordered with too aggressive of a delivery schedule. When delivery time came the Brazilian economy had cooled way down to a recession from a few years prior when it was booming, and TAM/ LATAM Brazil really couldn’t justify taking on a bunch of new planes (hence why some were leased out to QR) and dumping relatively young 77Ws like originally planned.
 
dcajet
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:33 pm

DCA350 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
3D101CA wrote:
At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?

TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?

Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.


Given how LATAM has pretty much abandoned GIG for all intents and purposes, (save for a regional flight, here or there) the quick answer is that GIG was not performing for them. But the answer is more complex and nuanced.

GIG was for years the entry airport to Brazil, even though it was no longer the capital nor the most important city in the country. Sao Paulo is where the money and demand are; it is the economic engine that moves Brazil. It just so happened that until the late 80s, Sao Paulo did not have an airport close to the city that could handle long haul flights, so GIG took on that role. When GRU opened, GIG entered into a slow decline that continues to this date. It has not helped GIG the facts that the city of Rio de Janeiro has seen better economic times and for the purposes of mass tourism, it is not longer considered by most travelers as a safe destination, a reputation that also dogs Brazil as a whole. True, there are a few European airlines that continue to fly to Rio, and the Brazilian oil industry, HQ'd in Rio, keeps the IAH flight busy, but for the rest of the US destinations, it is hard for most of them (MIA, JFK and ATL) to support service consistently year-round. Also, a lot of European and South American (Argentinian mostly) tourism now can fly directly to Brazil's NE resorts, further eroding GIG's as a gateway to Brazil.

So the net result is that, at least when it comes to international arrivals and departures, GIG is mostly a ghost town for most of the day. Take a look at their departures for a given day last month. Only 10 international departures over a 12-hour period, and 48% of them are to Buenos Aires.

Image
Source: Sir Chandler

On the domestic front, a lot of passengers overwhelmingly prefer Rio's downtown airport, Santos Dumont, which now offers flights to most of Brazil, after decades of being used mostly for the Shuttle Service to Sao Paulo with the venerable VARIG's Electras. Not good for GIG, although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.


Great explanation.. Hard to believe the third largest metro in South America, over 12 million, has so little international demand but the numbers don't lie..


As a kid growing up in the 80s in Buenos Aires I would look up to GIG and salivate with the sheer variety of international airlines and movements, including the Concorde. Exotic (for me) airlines such as Iraqi Airways would call at GIG with those green 747s and 707s, Pan Am had a mini hub there and VARIG's large international operation there with DC-10s, 747s and 707s. Hard to believe all that is gone, (either to GRU or wiped out by Rio de Janeiro´s own decline) and that not a single Brazilian airline has any long haul flights out of GIG any longer.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 707
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:42 am

Polot wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.


Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.

To add a bit more to that, the A350s were also first ordered ~15 years ago around when Varig collapsed, when TAM was desperately trying to fill the void and standardize away from the hodgepodge of aircraft that they quickly brought on to expand (used MD-11s and A340-500s, new 77Ws). Unfortunately TAM completely over ordered with too aggressive of a delivery schedule. When delivery time came the Brazilian economy had cooled way down to a recession from a few years prior when it was booming, and TAM/ LATAM Brazil really couldn’t justify taking on a bunch of new planes (hence why some were leased out to QR) and dumping relatively young 77Ws like originally planned.


That's a great insight but, just so that I get the real picture, I do not remember TAM/LATAM dumping any B77Ws. All of the ones they did leased are still there. As for the A340-500, there were two, if I am not mistaken and they were only a temporary fix from the very start - never planned to stay for longer. As for the MD11s, they did have those at the same level of the A340-500 and I think they were ex-Varig ones got on a good deal when Varig went down...
 
User avatar
Polot
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:31 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.

To add a bit more to that, the A350s were also first ordered ~15 years ago around when Varig collapsed, when TAM was desperately trying to fill the void and standardize away from the hodgepodge of aircraft that they quickly brought on to expand (used MD-11s and A340-500s, new 77Ws). Unfortunately TAM completely over ordered with too aggressive of a delivery schedule. When delivery time came the Brazilian economy had cooled way down to a recession from a few years prior when it was booming, and TAM/ LATAM Brazil really couldn’t justify taking on a bunch of new planes (hence why some were leased out to QR) and dumping relatively young 77Ws like originally planned.


That's a great insight but, just so that I get the real picture, I do not remember TAM/LATAM dumping any B77Ws. All of the ones they did leased are still there. As for the A340-500, there were two, if I am not mistaken and they were only a temporary fix from the very start - never planned to stay for longer. As for the MD11s, they did have those at the same level of the A340-500 and I think they were ex-Varig ones got on a good deal when Varig went down...

I said planned to dump the 77W (and replace with A350-1000s). They never actually did so.

And yes the A345 and MD-11s were all short term, but TAM was originally expecting to get A350s much sooner than they actually did (remember they were a A350 mk 1 customer). TAM ended up ordering more A332s to bridge the gap and replace the MD-11/A345s. Most of those went to TK after the merger with LAN and decision to shift over LAN’s newer 767s.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4994
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:43 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering


How were the A350s not delivering?
 
winGl3t
Posts: 329
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:44 pm

dcajet wrote:
although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.


Not anymore. Since March 2022 GOL no longer offer hub in GIG. Services to major Brazilian corporate destinations are served from SDU only. GIG is left with the longer stage lenght destinations which can not be flown out of SDU due to performance restricton (to places such as MAO, BEL, FOR, NAT, JPA and so)
 
dcajet
Topic Author
Posts: 5610
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:12 pm

winGl3t wrote:
dcajet wrote:
although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.


Not anymore. Since March 2022 GOL no longer offer hub in GIG. Services to major Brazilian corporate destinations are served from SDU only. GIG is left with the longer stage lenght destinations which can not be flown out of SDU due to performance restricton (to places such as MAO, BEL, FOR, NAT, JPA and so)


"Coitado" GIG... The ghost airport.
 
myki
Posts: 446
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:00 pm

Looking west across the Pacific, any word on SCL-MEL returning? Or perhaps they would look at beefing up AKL/SYD first?
 
dcajet
Topic Author
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:32 pm

myki wrote:
Looking west across the Pacific, any word on SCL-MEL returning? Or perhaps they would look at beefing up AKL/SYD first?


I would put MEL, together with JNB and TLV, in the same category. No announcements have been made regarding any plans for their return. Time will tell.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:22 pm

myki wrote:
Looking west across the Pacific, any word on SCL-MEL returning? Or perhaps they would look at beefing up AKL/SYD first?


AKL-SYD is 3 weekly increasing to 6 by the end of the year.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26767
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:14 am

The first of the Miami-secondary Brazil routes resumes at the end of July with Fortaleza.

Hopefully will see the roll out of others over the next couple of months. Recife, Salvador, Belem and Manaus were also operating right before COVID,
 
Jomar777
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:12 am

zkojq wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering


How were the A350s not delivering?


They wanted to work with the A359s towards replacing the routes where A332s were flown mainly and use then the A350Ks instead of the B77Ws they had in lease.

Firstly, deliveries were too slow and, secondly, they did not mange to get the best of the A359 dleivered neither seen the A350K as really able to replace their B77Ws on denser TATL routes like GRU-LHR at that time (similar to what EK now says in regards to the A350k being too small a plane to be Airbus top LH aircraft).

With the merger with LAN, they ended up tapping on a good amount of B767s that were still quite new but that were being displaced by the arrival of the 788 and 789s there. Added to the fact that, by also moving towards that frame, they would achieve commonality across the board (LAN did not use the A350) allied to the "fleet interchange agreement" betwen Brazil and Chile, this would be one more strong reason why the B787 would work for LATAM but not the A350.
 
DCA350
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:16 am

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... der-for-17

LATAM adding the XLR.. I think they are a perfect fit.. I imagine secondary Brazilian cites to the US and maybe some cities that can't consistently support a WB like IAD..
 
LHLX
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:21 pm

DCA350 wrote:
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-07-latam-airlines-reinforces-fleet-with-additional-order-for-17

LATAM adding the XLR.. I think they are a perfect fit.. I imagine secondary Brazilian cites to the US and maybe some cities that can't consistently support a WB like IAD..


I agree. This can open up new routes to LATAM from secondary Brazilian cities to international points.
Cities in Northeastern Brazil like SSA, FOR, REC, and NAT can easily be linked to the Eastern USA (e.g. MCO, MIA, JFK) and to Western Europe (MAD, LHR, FRA).

TP uses the 321XLR on routes that previously had only Airbus 330 service to the US, Canada and some points in Brazil, so I am sure LATAM could open such markets, too, as the distances seem similar. Of course the question remains how much demand there is but if pre-Covid JJ could fill 767s from FOR and SSA to MIA, then it should be possible.

In the past there had been talk of LA creating a hub in NE Brazil so a 321XLR could provide some Int'l feed without the wide-body equipment need.
This would also make NE Brazil accessible to other points in the US and Europe while avoiding GRU and GIG.
So far only TP provides scheduled int'l links from NE Brazil and there is a small AF/KL presence in FOR...
 
dcajet
Topic Author
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:54 pm

LHLX wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-07-latam-airlines-reinforces-fleet-with-additional-order-for-17

LATAM adding the XLR.. I think they are a perfect fit.. I imagine secondary Brazilian cites to the US and maybe some cities that can't consistently support a WB like IAD..


I agree. This can open up new routes to LATAM from secondary Brazilian cities to international points.
Cities in Northeastern Brazil like SSA, FOR, REC, and NAT can easily be linked to the Eastern USA (e.g. MCO, MIA, JFK) and to Western Europe (MAD, LHR, FRA).

TP uses the 321XLR on routes that previously had only Airbus 330 service to the US, Canada and some points in Brazil, so I am sure LATAM could open such markets, too, as the distances seem similar. Of course the question remains how much demand there is but if pre-Covid JJ could fill 767s from FOR and SSA to MIA, then it should be possible.

In the past there had been talk of LA creating a hub in NE Brazil so a 321XLR could provide some Int'l feed without the wide-body equipment need.
This would also make NE Brazil accessible to other points in the US and Europe while avoiding GRU and GIG.
So far only TP provides scheduled int'l links from NE Brazil and there is a small AF/KL presence in FOR...


Not only from Brazil. Lima (much better situated geographically as a hub) would also benefit from the A321XLR range and could support routes that are too thin to be flown efficiently with either the 767 0r 787, such as LIM-SFO or LIM-YYZ.
 
LHLX
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:45 am

According to the range map pf the A321XLR displayed at https://passageirodeprimeira.com/latam- ... distancia/
with GRU as the starting point the A321XLR can reach JNB nonstop from GRU, this may also open up market in Western Africa that used to have service to Brazil through Varig and VASP many years ago like Lagos, Abidjan and Casablanca (if the demand is there). JNB was lastly served by the 763 of LATAM and while a 321XLR has less Cargo capacity, it has similar passenger capacity.
Currently only TAAG from Luanda, and ET from ADD link Africa to Latin America. I am not sure if AT has returned to GRU from CMN.
 
DCA350
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:14 am

LHLX wrote:
According to the range map pf the A321XLR displayed at https://passageirodeprimeira.com/latam- ... distancia/
with GRU as the starting point the A321XLR can reach JNB nonstop from GRU, this may also open up market in Western Africa that used to have service to Brazil through Varig and VASP many years ago like Lagos, Abidjan and Casablanca (if the demand is there). JNB was lastly served by the 763 of LATAM and while a 321XLR has less Cargo capacity, it has similar passenger capacity.
Currently only TAAG from Luanda, and ET from ADD link Africa to Latin America. I am not sure if AT has returned to GRU from CMN.


I could definitely see JNB returning.. It was an A350 route at one point, but with the performance limitations of JNBs altitude, it will probably be a 787 route, if it returns. I agree on the Lima opportunities, SFO and particularly SEA, could be an opportunity with no real Latin competition because AV nor COPA flies there.. Exciting times ahead.
 
LHLX
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Re: LATAM Fleet and Network Thread - 2022

Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:18 am

Yes, the A321XLR could open new routes from the GRU/LIM bases (or free the 767s used on some routes from these bases if the 767s are here to stay, eg. LIS from GRU and JFK from LIM) and they could be used to open up new int'l routes from secondary (non-hub) South American cities to the US, Canada and W. Europe.

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