Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
x1234 wrote:I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.
smi0006 wrote:What is the current fleet count for LA? Hard to find accurate numbers ?
jbs2886 wrote:https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth
Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.
dcajet wrote:jbs2886 wrote:https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth
Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.
They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.
https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/
jbs2886 wrote:dcajet wrote:jbs2886 wrote:https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth
Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.
They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.
https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/
Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.
NearMiss wrote:jbs2886 wrote:dcajet wrote:
They signed up last year for 5 ex Norwegian 787-9s. They may be looking for more.
https://airlinegeeks.com/2021/08/10/lat ... gian-787s/
Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.
3 ex Norwegian UK 787-9s are already getting checked at LATAM's SCL workshop. AFAIK, they are only looking for -9s.
jbs2886 wrote:https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/116881-latam-airlines-seeks-b787s-targets-colombia-growth
Anyone have info on the 787s LATAM is seeking? Article is paywalled.
x1234 wrote:I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.
3D101CA wrote:I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.
Elgorou wrote:x1234 wrote:I know the majority of demand to Deep South America is from Miami/New York/Western Europe where LATAM has daily flights to its hubs. They recently resumed SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly and SCL-LAX 3x weekly. Is demand from Oceania/Asia and California that much lower? Also Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico is now part of the New Zealand VISA Waiver when visiting NZ: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... ies/slider
The Australia E-VISA works for Chilean citizens. What about GRU-JNB? I know there isn't a lot of South African migration to Latin America as there is to North America, Oceania and Europe but the route was also surviving pre-COVID on Asia connections which of course the ME3 wins (EK and QR) in terms of pricing and schedules.
Meanwhile most of Asia/Pacifc countries has heavy Covid restrictions (especially China and Japan) barely we can see a increase of demand to LAX/AKL/SYD, at the time the only increase announced is Qantas returne to SCL in october 4x weekly.
As example AA suspended DFW-SCL/LIM ( both with fligts to US west coast) and decrease frequency in DFW-GRU/EZE ( without fligts to the west coast)
LHLX wrote:3D101CA wrote:I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.
I was thinking the same thing.
When the route first started in late 2018 as SCL-GRU-TLV operated by LATAM Chile it flew the long detour north to Spain and then over the Med to TLV. Depending on direction that took between 13>30 and 15 hours.
Just before the route was suspended due to COVID LATAM was allowed to overfly Sudan en route to TLV, thereby omitting the long detour and flying an almost direct route that saved between 15, and 2 hours per flight.
Also, some 787s from LATAM Chile got transferred to LATAM Brazil so flights could be operated without the tag-on need and quicker now.
I think apart from KE and LA every airline that served TLV before COVID is back, some even with more frequencies than before (DL, UA, AA), bigger equipment (AF) and new destinations served from TLV (EK to DXB, EY to AUH, AT to CMN, DL to BOS, AA to MIA, etc)
Apparently PR and SQ are also interested in launching TLV...so a nonstop link to South America is the only real missing link right now...
LHLX wrote:3D101CA wrote:I wonder if GRU-TLV is ever coming back. I think I remember hearing that LATAM wanted to increase frequencies before the pandemic. The route must have done well for the time it was operated I assume.
I was thinking the same thing.
When the route first started in late 2018 as SCL-GRU-TLV operated by LATAM Chile it flew the long detour north to Spain and then over the Med to TLV. Depending on direction that took between 13>30 and 15 hours.
Just before the route was suspended due to COVID LATAM was allowed to overfly Sudan en route to TLV, thereby omitting the long detour and flying an almost direct route that saved between 15, and 2 hours per flight.
Also, some 787s from LATAM Chile got transferred to LATAM Brazil so flights could be operated without the tag-on need and quicker now.
I think apart from KE and LA every airline that served TLV before COVID is back, some even with more frequencies than before (DL, UA, AA), bigger equipment (AF) and new destinations served from TLV (EK to DXB, EY to AUH, AT to CMN, DL to BOS, AA to MIA, etc)
Apparently PR and SQ are also interested in launching TLV...so a nonstop link to South America is the only real missing link right now...
dcajet wrote:NearMiss wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Yeah, I knew about those. I remember finding them on the bankruptcy docket and posting here Just curious what they're looking for - 8s, 9s, used, new? How many? What 787s are on the market? I also imagine some of the undelivered inventory will end up being ntu, although maybe LH and others have snapped those up.
3 ex Norwegian UK 787-9s are already getting checked at LATAM's SCL workshop. AFAIK, they are only looking for -9s.
They can always get their paws on Mexico's unwanted presidential 787-8... Mexico literally doesn´t know what to do with it!
DCA350 wrote:Still a few years out but what will replace the 777Ws? A35Ks would be the perfect size and they have A350 experience albeit they are gone now.. I think the 777X is too big
F9Animal wrote:Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?
dcajet wrote:Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.
3D101CA wrote:At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?
TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?
Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.
dcajet wrote:F9Animal wrote:Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?
LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.
dcajet wrote:3D101CA wrote:At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?
TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?
Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.
Given how LATAM has pretty much abandoned GIG for all intents and purposes, (save for a regional flight, here or there) the quick answer is that GIG was not performing for them. But the answer is more complex and nuanced.
GIG was for years the entry airport to Brazil, even though it was no longer the capital nor the most important city in the country. Sao Paulo is where the money and demand are; it is the economic engine that moves Brazil. It just so happened that until the late 80s, Sao Paulo did not have an airport close to the city that could handle long haul flights, so GIG took on that role. When GRU opened, GIG entered into a slow decline that continues to this date. It has not helped GIG the facts that the city of Rio de Janeiro has seen better economic times and for the purposes of mass tourism, it is not longer considered by most travelers as a safe destination, a reputation that also dogs Brazil as a whole. True, there are a few European airlines that continue to fly to Rio, and the Brazilian oil industry, HQ'd in Rio, keeps the IAH flight busy, but for the rest of the US destinations, it is hard for most of them (MIA, JFK and ATL) to support service consistently year-round. Also, a lot of European and South American (Argentinian mostly) tourism now can fly directly to Brazil's NE resorts, further eroding GIG's as a gateway to Brazil.
So the net result is that, at least when it comes to international arrivals and departures, GIG is mostly a ghost town for most of the day. Take a look at their departures for a given day last month. Only 10 international departures over a 12-hour period, and 48% of them are to Buenos Aires.
Source: Sir Chandler
On the domestic front, a lot of passengers overwhelmingly prefer Rio's downtown airport, Santos Dumont, which now offers flights to most of Brazil, after decades of being used mostly for the Shuttle Service to Sao Paulo with the venerable VARIG's Electras. Not good for GIG, although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.
Jomar777 wrote:dcajet wrote:F9Animal wrote:Does anyone know why they sold off their A350's?
LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.
Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.
DCA350 wrote:dcajet wrote:3D101CA wrote:At one point TAM Airlines (before the merger) served Rio de Janerio to LHR, CDG, and FRA. Did these routes perform well or no?
TAM Airlines also served JFK, MCO, and MIA as well, which were all dropped to. How did they do?
Rio de Janerio has always been a much smaller market compared to Sao Paulo, but not even a small international hub for LATAM is quite sad to see. GIG has always been underserved compared to GRU forever though. I just wonder if GIG was viable or not, or if it was commercial reasons to focus on GRU only.
Given how LATAM has pretty much abandoned GIG for all intents and purposes, (save for a regional flight, here or there) the quick answer is that GIG was not performing for them. But the answer is more complex and nuanced.
GIG was for years the entry airport to Brazil, even though it was no longer the capital nor the most important city in the country. Sao Paulo is where the money and demand are; it is the economic engine that moves Brazil. It just so happened that until the late 80s, Sao Paulo did not have an airport close to the city that could handle long haul flights, so GIG took on that role. When GRU opened, GIG entered into a slow decline that continues to this date. It has not helped GIG the facts that the city of Rio de Janeiro has seen better economic times and for the purposes of mass tourism, it is not longer considered by most travelers as a safe destination, a reputation that also dogs Brazil as a whole. True, there are a few European airlines that continue to fly to Rio, and the Brazilian oil industry, HQ'd in Rio, keeps the IAH flight busy, but for the rest of the US destinations, it is hard for most of them (MIA, JFK and ATL) to support service consistently year-round. Also, a lot of European and South American (Argentinian mostly) tourism now can fly directly to Brazil's NE resorts, further eroding GIG's as a gateway to Brazil.
So the net result is that, at least when it comes to international arrivals and departures, GIG is mostly a ghost town for most of the day. Take a look at their departures for a given day last month. Only 10 international departures over a 12-hour period, and 48% of them are to Buenos Aires.
Source: Sir Chandler
On the domestic front, a lot of passengers overwhelmingly prefer Rio's downtown airport, Santos Dumont, which now offers flights to most of Brazil, after decades of being used mostly for the Shuttle Service to Sao Paulo with the venerable VARIG's Electras. Not good for GIG, although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.
Great explanation.. Hard to believe the third largest metro in South America, over 12 million, has so little international demand but the numbers don't lie..
Polot wrote:Jomar777 wrote:dcajet wrote:
LATAM Chile (the leading voice on this choir called LATAM) already had plenty 787s in house and on order, some of which could eventually be transferred to the Brazil franchise and achieve savings in fleet commonalty, leases, etc. Similar case when the then TAM retired its A332 and replaced them ex LAN Chile 767s.
Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.
To add a bit more to that, the A350s were also first ordered ~15 years ago around when Varig collapsed, when TAM was desperately trying to fill the void and standardize away from the hodgepodge of aircraft that they quickly brought on to expand (used MD-11s and A340-500s, new 77Ws). Unfortunately TAM completely over ordered with too aggressive of a delivery schedule. When delivery time came the Brazilian economy had cooled way down to a recession from a few years prior when it was booming, and TAM/ LATAM Brazil really couldn’t justify taking on a bunch of new planes (hence why some were leased out to QR) and dumping relatively young 77Ws like originally planned.
Jomar777 wrote:Polot wrote:Jomar777 wrote:
Expanding on this, the A350s were brought to what was TAM towards replacing the A332s which were quite old with plans to also add the A350-1000 sometime soon at that time. When TAM merged with LATAM, the group had the opportunity to use the newer B767s on LAN~s books for this since those were being replaced by the B787 (8 & 9) there.The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering and even left 3 to 4 of them in Qatar on a sublease.
To add a bit more to that, the A350s were also first ordered ~15 years ago around when Varig collapsed, when TAM was desperately trying to fill the void and standardize away from the hodgepodge of aircraft that they quickly brought on to expand (used MD-11s and A340-500s, new 77Ws). Unfortunately TAM completely over ordered with too aggressive of a delivery schedule. When delivery time came the Brazilian economy had cooled way down to a recession from a few years prior when it was booming, and TAM/ LATAM Brazil really couldn’t justify taking on a bunch of new planes (hence why some were leased out to QR) and dumping relatively young 77Ws like originally planned.
That's a great insight but, just so that I get the real picture, I do not remember TAM/LATAM dumping any B77Ws. All of the ones they did leased are still there. As for the A340-500, there were two, if I am not mistaken and they were only a temporary fix from the very start - never planned to stay for longer. As for the MD11s, they did have those at the same level of the A340-500 and I think they were ex-Varig ones got on a good deal when Varig went down...
Jomar777 wrote:The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering
dcajet wrote:although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.
winGl3t wrote:dcajet wrote:although GOL operates, IIRC, a hub at GIG.
Not anymore. Since March 2022 GOL no longer offer hub in GIG. Services to major Brazilian corporate destinations are served from SDU only. GIG is left with the longer stage lenght destinations which can not be flown out of SDU due to performance restricton (to places such as MAO, BEL, FOR, NAT, JPA and so)
myki wrote:Looking west across the Pacific, any word on SCL-MEL returning? Or perhaps they would look at beefing up AKL/SYD first?
myki wrote:Looking west across the Pacific, any word on SCL-MEL returning? Or perhaps they would look at beefing up AKL/SYD first?
zkojq wrote:Jomar777 wrote:The merged entity considered that the A350, in comparison to their B787/767s was not delivering
How were the A350s not delivering?
DCA350 wrote:https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-07-latam-airlines-reinforces-fleet-with-additional-order-for-17
LATAM adding the XLR.. I think they are a perfect fit.. I imagine secondary Brazilian cites to the US and maybe some cities that can't consistently support a WB like IAD..
LHLX wrote:DCA350 wrote:https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-07-latam-airlines-reinforces-fleet-with-additional-order-for-17
LATAM adding the XLR.. I think they are a perfect fit.. I imagine secondary Brazilian cites to the US and maybe some cities that can't consistently support a WB like IAD..
I agree. This can open up new routes to LATAM from secondary Brazilian cities to international points.
Cities in Northeastern Brazil like SSA, FOR, REC, and NAT can easily be linked to the Eastern USA (e.g. MCO, MIA, JFK) and to Western Europe (MAD, LHR, FRA).
TP uses the 321XLR on routes that previously had only Airbus 330 service to the US, Canada and some points in Brazil, so I am sure LATAM could open such markets, too, as the distances seem similar. Of course the question remains how much demand there is but if pre-Covid JJ could fill 767s from FOR and SSA to MIA, then it should be possible.
In the past there had been talk of LA creating a hub in NE Brazil so a 321XLR could provide some Int'l feed without the wide-body equipment need.
This would also make NE Brazil accessible to other points in the US and Europe while avoiding GRU and GIG.
So far only TP provides scheduled int'l links from NE Brazil and there is a small AF/KL presence in FOR...
LHLX wrote:According to the range map pf the A321XLR displayed at https://passageirodeprimeira.com/latam- ... distancia/
with GRU as the starting point the A321XLR can reach JNB nonstop from GRU, this may also open up market in Western Africa that used to have service to Brazil through Varig and VASP many years ago like Lagos, Abidjan and Casablanca (if the demand is there). JNB was lastly served by the 763 of LATAM and while a 321XLR has less Cargo capacity, it has similar passenger capacity.
Currently only TAAG from Luanda, and ET from ADD link Africa to Latin America. I am not sure if AT has returned to GRU from CMN.